Support NeoGAF

[Prinz Eugn]

oh wow

do you run in the other direction at the mere sight of a leashed dog?

No. The issue is that a dog is a dangerous thing, regardless of size, and that dog owners need to take reasonable precautions to prevent injury to others.

The leash is about control, but you can obviously still have a leash on a dog but not be in control (for example, your leash is too long and still lets your dog get to someone you don't want them to). In that case, you would still be at fault, though you might not be breaking any leash ordnances.

 

[Wazzy]

CHILDREN ARE NOT DOGS
dont know why you cant comprehend this
a kid isnt going to jump out of nowhere and start jumping in my face or try to bite me. and talking about responsibility its the owners responsibility to follow the law and keep their dogs on the leash.

I never said children are dogs. I said they are a lot more similar than people like to admit.

I agree owners should keep their dog on a leash but that does not make it okay to kick a 15lb dog.

 

[anaron]

He was bitten by a tiny dog in the past. I don't know how many times I have to mention that. The breed doesn't matter. He's got a right to defend himself from a loose dog no matter what the dog looks like.

no, he doesn't

the dog gave him no reason to defend himself seeing as how there was no proof that she engaged him with violence.

you're not allowed to attack things because you think they *might* attack you

 

[Shiggy]

*sigh* if a dog is off leash because the owner allowed it, that doesn't mean the owner can't grab the dog.

Grabbing a tiny dog trying to bite is not that hard but if it's a matter of not wanting to get bit, you still get the owner involved. Why do you think it's okay to kick a tiny dog and not take it out in the owner?

Plus we're completely ignoring the fact there's no evidence the dog was going to bite so now it's just a tiny dog was running at you.

Well, why didn't the owner grab the dog when it was approaching that guy? Was she really that ignorant?

Well, I do think grabbing a tiny dog in such a situation is hard. It's a matter of a few seconds in which a decision has to be made to prevent potential harm to yourself. The owner is too far away to grab it. So what else can you do? Grabbing it yourself is a rather gullible idea, so all I can see is trying to run away (you have to be damn fast), hide (problem if there's nothing) or kick it. Yes, to protect myself, I would still kick a pug if there are no other options.

A dog running and barking at you is to most people a hint of danger. It doesn't prove the dog will attack you, sure. But I certainly can't read a dog's mind. If it gets too close and attempts to jump at me, my only feeling is that I want it to get rid of me as fast as possible.

 

[Ray Wonder]

no, he doesn't

the dog gave him no reason to defend himself seeing as how there was no proof that she engaged him with violence.

you're not allowed to attack things because you think they *might* attack you

I guess I'll quote this one more time for good measure.

Assume It’s Aggressive. The first rule is to NEVER assume the dog is friendly. Don’t try to read its signals and definitely do not think it’s friendly because its wagging is tail (see this article for why).
Read more at http://theilovedogssite.com/what-to-do-when-an-off-leash-dog-charges-your-dog/#8jzrWYHH8ILMmslg.99

 

[suzu]

The jogger completely overreacted and the owner was also irresponsible for purposely not leashing both dogs. :/

 

[Wazzy]

Well, why didn't the owner grab the dog when it was approaching that guy? Was she really that ignorant?

Well, I do think grabbing a tiny dog in such a situation is hard. It's a matter of a few seconds in which a decision has to be made to prevent potential harm to yourself. The owner is too far away to grab it. So what else can you do? Grabbing it yourself is a rather gullible idea, so all I can see is trying to run away (you have to be damn fast), hide (problem if there's nothing) or kick it. Yes, to protect myself, I would still kick a pug if there are no other options.

A dog running and barking at you is to most people a hint of danger. It doesn't prove the dog will attack you, sure. But I certainly can't read a dog's mind. If it gets too close and attempts to jump at me, my only feeling is that I want it to get rid of me as fast as possible.

Where does it say the dog was barking?

But whatever the case, you reacting this paranoid to a tiny dog is dumb and it always will be.

If it's a big dog I'll understand. Tiny? Okay then.

 

[anaron]

Well, why didn't the owner grab the dog when it was approaching that guy? Was she really that ignorant?

she was trying to leash her other dog while the other one ran off

 

[Deleted member 325805]

He should write a book telling his near death experience and how he overcome the hound from hell.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

He was bitten by a tiny dog in the past. I don't know how many times I have to mention that. The breed doesn't matter. He's got a right to defend himself from a loose dog no matter what the dog looks like.

I've only ever been bitten by a dog twice in my life. Both occasions it was Lassie (Border Collie) biting me. 2 different dogs on 2 separate occasions.

So I now have an excuse to destroy any border Collie that comes within 10 feet of me?

 

[ReplacementPelican]

You can't assume that...

A) The jogger can identify pugs

B) That jogger knows that pugs are probably not that dangerous

C) That conditions made identification of breed easy

... Are you serious? There is no reality in which Pugs look even remotely threatening, the poor little shits can barely breathe.

 

[anaron]

I guess I'll quote this one more time for good measure.

where's the part where it says kicking a dog hard enough to kill is ok?

 

[bishoptl]

It's in the video on the site I believe. Yeah, she said that she had to scream to get him to stop.

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/natio...pound-pug-single-kick-owner-article-1.2163362

anaron was referring to the NY Daily News piece that was posted.

Fair enough, then. I didn't watch the video, only read the OP.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Anyways, I've said my peace. I think all of these arguments are getting a little too redundant for me. Hopefully if the guy kicked it, being an asshole, he'll be charged. Otherwise, I still feel bad for the lady. No matter how irresponsible she was.

To the above whom quoted me. I've already addressed those. If you really want an answer. Look at my past posts.

 

[Volimar]

The Op is trying to garner sympathy with a prop photo. The real suspect is this vicious monster. Notice the hoodie. Only a thug pug wears a hoodie and thug pugs deserve to die!

Spoiler

sarcasm

Shop a bag of skittles in next to it.

 

[3phemeral]

The whole point is that people shouldn't be taking something out on the child/dog but on the irresponsible parent/owner.

No one is saying it's not the owner's responsibility. At least, not recently from what I've read.

It's an absolutely important distinction to make that the jogger would very likely not feel threatened by a child. You're phrasing of "taking it out" on a dog or child is not comparable because, as much as the owner is responsible for its actions, a child and a dog behave very differently. You're equating punishment of a child doing wrong to kicking a potentially dangerous dog as the same when it's not. It's a bad comparison so don't use it.

Plus we're completely ignoring the fact there's no evidence the dog was going to bite so now it's just a tiny dog was running at you.

Again, you never addressed this earlier, but what evidence do you need that the dog was attempting to bite the jogger? Does he need to be bitten? If the jogger felt sufficiently threatened, would that not be enough to indicate that he felt he could have been bitten? Does he need to see the dog actually open its mouth, lunge at him and then, in that split second determine, "Okay, he's going to bite. It's time to react."?

 

[inner-G]

Joggers are the fucking worst

 

[Ragnorok64]

...Oh I don't know, yell at the owner to grab their dog? What does that take, two seconds?

Plus you can grab the dog by it's collar to stop it or pick it up by the scruff if you're wanting to stop it's behaviour.

If I have some dog coming at me why would I put my hands closer to it's mouth to grab it's collar or scruff?

 

[Scully Scully Scoo]

I never said children are dogs. I said they are a lot more similar than people like to admit.

I agree owners should keep their dog on a leash but that does not make it okay to kick a 15lb dog.

15lb or 80lb it doesnt matter, dogs can startle people

no, he doesn't

the dog gave him no reason to defend himself seeing as how there was no proof that she engaged him with violence.

you're not allowed to attack things because you think they *might* attack you

actually you can, stand your ground law. the jogger had previous experience of being bitten by small dog therefore perceived this dog to be a threat so took precaution. could have all been avoided if owner had followed the law

 

[Shiggy]

Where does it say the dog was barking?

But whatever the case, you reacting this paranoid to a tiny dog is dumb and it always will be.

If it's a big dog I'll understand. Tiny? Okay then.

I was talking about myself as we don't know what really happened in the situation described above.

And why does size or breed matter? I don't wanna be fucking bitten by a dog. Even a tiny pug makes your leg bleed and hurt... What's so hard to understand about that? You don't want me to bite you either. My bite won't kill you.

 

[Risible]

a rabbit that could have done more damage than that dog. No joke.

The hyperbole in the thread is crazy.

Any dog, no matter the size, can give you a bite that at the very least is going to hurt like shit. Hell, my daughter went through a biting phase when she was around 3 months old and that hurt like a motherfucker when she chomped down.

Leash your fucking dog. End of story. It's the law. I own one and you can be sure it's leashed when it's out in public. If a dog comes at me at a full run I'm going to be debating on kicking it as well, maybe not "going for the extra point" style kick, but I'm going to fend it off if I'm uncertain as to its intentions.

Some people are terrified of dogs. Leash your fucking dog.

 

[Wazzy]

No one is saying it's not the owner's responsibility. At least, not recently from what I've read.

It's an absolutely important distinction to make that the jogger would very likely not feel threatened by a child. You're phrasing of "taking it out" on a dog or child is not comparable because, as much as the owner is responsible for its actions, a child and a dog behave very differently. You're equating punishment of a child doing wrong to kicking a potentially dangerous dog as the same when it's not. It's a bad comparison so don;t use it.

If it's the owners responsibility then you should be getting mad at the OWNER.

My phrasing of taking it out on the child/dog is someone yelling at the child for what they did.

Again, you never addressed this earlier, but what evidence do you need that the dog was attempting to bite the jogger? Does he need to be bitten? If the jogger felt sufficiently threatened, would that not be enough to indicate that he felt he could have been bitten? Does he need to see the dog actually open its mouth, lunge at him and then, in that split second determine, "Okay, he's going to bite. It's time to react."?

If the dog hasn't bitten then yes, I do think he needs to be bitten in order to react appropriately. You don't get to just react to something that hasn't happened yet.

 

[Shiggy]

she was trying to leash her other dog while the other one ran off

Then it's pretty clear that she wasn't able to keep the dog away from the man and prevent it from going for that man. Thank God our laws allow us to take action before we are harmed.

 

[bananafactory]

If the dog hasn't bitten then yes, I do think he needs to be bitten in order to react appropriately. You don't get to just react to something that hasn't happened yet.

Exactly.

If I get punched by someone at a bar and then the next time I'm at a bar someone walks up to me do I just punch them pre-emptively because I might get punched?

Also, how many times do you walk down the sidewalk past leashed dogs that could bite you anyway because they are 2 feet from you? This guy must live a tough life.

 

[Seventy70]

Dogs are unpredictable. Keep them on a leash. People have phobias and when it comes running towards them, they panic. Not everyone has to take time out of their day to deal with your shit dog and your shit inability to leash it. The laws are there for a reason. Period.

 

[Dyson Industries]

seriously, what a fucking child he is.

You're assuming that she is not lying in her testimony. Having already admitted wrongdoing in not having the animal leashed to begin with, it behooves her to place things in the best possible light for her, and the worst for the jogger. Without a witness, we'll never know. He did take the time to call the police, that is not under dispute.

She comes across as less trustworthy in her story than the jogger.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I was talking about myself as we don't know what really happened in the situation described above.

And why does size or breed matter? I don't wanna be fucking bitten by a dog. Even a tiny pug makes your leg bleed and hurt... What's so hard to understand about that? You don't want me to bite you either. My bite won't kill you.

But the breed DOES matter. A Pug could barely (if at all) do damage do a person standing still. A pug can barely eat its own food out of its bowl. A pug can barely BREATHE.

But somehow, this breed can suddenly manage to clamp down on a jogger while running itself?

Yeah no. It's impossible. In no universe that exists could a pug have bitten this guy in THIS context. Could it attempt to though? Of course. Wont deny that. But there's no evidence of that here. The jogger doesn't even claim it tried to bite.

So we're back at...he's an asshole.

 

[Prinz Eugn]

... Are you serious? There is no reality in which Pugs look even remotely threatening, the poor little shits can barely breathe.

Assuming he got a good look at it. See point C). Even the woman reported it was running along side him, so chances are good that he only saw it out of the corner of his eye. A furry thing with teeth might have been all he understood.

 

[Nafai1123]

I was talking about myself as we don't know what really happened in the situation described above.

And why does size or breed matter? I don't wanna be fucking bitten by a dog. Even a tiny pug makes your leg bleed and hurt... What's so hard to understand about that? You don't want me to bite you either. My bite won't kill you.

It makes quite a different to me when I can just outrun the dog in question.

 

[Shiggy]

If the dog hasn't bitten then yes, I do think he needs to be bitten in order to react appropriately. You don't get to just react to something that hasn't happened yet.

A small man comes running with a knife pointed at your leg. You still don't act until he's hit it, right? He may just want to play.

Stupid to not understand that dogs aren't all nice and friendly

 

[Syriel]

no, he doesn't

the dog gave him no reason to defend himself seeing as how there was no proof that she engaged him with violence.

you're not allowed to attack things because you think they *might* attack you

Actually, under self defense laws you can.

If a person is charging you and screaming, it is reasonable to assume they are attacking, especially if you don't know them.

If a dog is charging you and barking, it is reasonable to assume it is attacking, especially if you don't know it.

she was trying to leash her other dog while the other one ran off

Yep. She was busy chilling at a school, in an area where she knew that having off-leash dogs was prohibited, and she suddenly had a change of heart and decided to leash her dogs at the exact moment one of them took off running towards a jogger. And it ignored any commands she gave to come back.

where's the part where it says kicking a dog hard enough to kill is ok?

Funny, no one has made that argument.

 

[johnnyfive]

Joggers are the fucking worst

After fatally kicking the pug, he probably jogged to a bike which he rode over pedestrians on his way to his bmw which he used to hit and run a bicyclist.

We all know the type.

 

[3phemeral]

If it's the owners responsibility then you should be getting mad at the OWNER.

My phrasing of taking it out on the child/dog is someone yelling at the child for what they did.

If the dog hasn't bitten then yes, I do think he needs to be bitten in order to react appropriately. You don't get to just react to something that hasn't happened yet.

So, your solution is to say, "Ignore the dog until it bites me and if it does, decide appropriate punishment."? There's no option where, as someone feeling threatened by an animal, that you just don't want to be bitten?

Exactly.

If I get punched by someone at a bar and then the next time I'm at a bar someone walks up to me do I just punch them pre-emptively because I might get punched?

Not unless you're saying the jogger went out of his way after spotting the dog, running after it, and then pre-emptively killing it. So, no, it's not the same. People aren't even arguing that at all.

 

[Seventy70]

But the breed DOES matter. A Pug could barely (if at all) do damage do a person standing still. A pug can barely eat its own food out of its bowl. A pug can barely BREATHE.

But somehow, this breed can suddenly manage to clamp down on a jogger while running itself?

Yeah no. It's impossible. In no universe that exists could a pug have bitten this guy in THIS context. Could it attempt to though? Of course. Wont deny that. But there's no evidence of that here. The jogger doesn't even claim it tried to bite.

So we're back at...he's an asdhole.

He's an asshole because his human instincts kicked in? I'm sure he looks in hindsight and thinks it was the wrong thing to do, but when it actually happens no one has the time to stop and think.

 

[Ragnorok64]

...If the dog hasn't bitten then yes, I do think he needs to be bitten in order to react appropriately. You don't get to just react to something that hasn't happened yet.

Wait, what? I have to wait until a dog actually bites me before I can defend myself? I'm not going to wait to be bitten by an animal before I take action. If I feel an animal is acting aggressively toward me and the owner is incapable, or unwilling to stop it, I'm going to base my action around avoiding getting bitten.

 

[ConradCervantes]

Silly guy. It's Punt, Pass & Kick, not Pug: Pass or Kick.

 

[Scully Scully Scoo]

But the breed DOES matter. A Pug could barely (if at all) do damage do a person standing still. A pug can barely eat its own food out of its bowl. A pug can barely BREATHE.

But somehow, this breed can suddenly manage to clamp down on a jogger while running itself?

Yeah no. It's impossible. In no universe that exists could a pug have bitten this guy in THIS context. Could it attempt to though? Of course. Wont deny that. But there's no evidence of that here. The jogger doesn't even claim it tried to bite.

So we're back at...he's an asdhole.

where is ur evidence that suggest the jogger was knowledgeable about this breed but kicked the dog with malicious intent anyway?

 

[Duster]

The "pick it up" comments have me wondering if it's a good idea to pick up a strange dog?
Maybe not a pug but in general.

I had such a scenario recently with a smallish dog, it was over-excited and running down the pavement of a fairly quiet road but when it came up to me I figured picking it up (or restraining it) wasn't the best idea in case it felt threatened so I just stroked it until it's owner jogged around the corner and it ran back to her.

 

[Wazzy]

So, your solution is to say, "Ignore the dog until it bites me and if it does, decide appropriate punishment."? There's no option where, as someone feeling threatened by an animal, that you just don't want to be bitten?



Not unless you're saying the jogger went out of his way after spotting the dog, running after it, and then pre-emptively killing it. So, no, it's not the same. People aren't even arguing that at all.

If the dog is bothering you, get mad at the owner.

A small man comes running with a knife pointed at your leg. You still don't act until he's hit it, right? He may just want to play.

Stupid to not understand that dogs aren't all nice and friendly

Oh my fucking god dude. Are you the king of the worst examples on this forum? I'm not even going to respond properly to this if you can't see why that's ridiculous to compare.

Wait, what? I have to wait until a dog actually bites me before I can defend myself? I'm not going to wait to be bitten by an animal before I take action. If I feel an animal is acting aggressively toward me and the owner is incapable, or unwilling to stop it, I'm going to base my action around avoiding getting bitten.

Yes? If a dog is acting aggressive, call the owner to grab it.

We're talking about tiny dogs people. Your life is not in jeopardy from them.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

He's an asshole because his human instincts kicked in? I'm sure he looks in hindsight and thinks it was the wrong thing to do, but when it actually happens no one has the time to stop and think.

Instincts? Do people think this pug magically appeared out of thin air next to his feet or something?

 

[inner-G]

After fatally kicking the pug, he probably jogged to a bike which he rode over pedestrians on his way to his bmw which he used to hit and run a bicyclist.

We all know the type.

The worst are the 'I'm going to jog along the side of a busy 2-way street' type that make everyone in town slow down and go around them.

I always 'clean my windshield' as I pass by

 

[Seventy70]

where is ur evidence that suggest the jogger was knowledgeable about this breed but kicked the dog with malicious intent anyway?

Bu-bu-but every person is a DOG LOVER like me and knows that my little puggy wuggy wouldn't hurt a fly. I could keep it leashed and avoid these situations, but I'm going to blame everyone else.

Instincts? Do people think this pug magically appeared out of thin air next to his feet or something?

Maybe he didn't notice until it got real close? Maybe he looked down and saw something running at his feet and reacted like a normal person?

 

[Volimar]

I don't know about pugs, but my niece had to get stitches when their dachshund bit her.

 

[3phemeral]

If the dog is bothering you, get mad at the owner.


Oh my fucking god dude. Are you the king of the worst examples on this forum? I'm not even going to respond properly to this if you can't see why that's ridiculous to compare.

But the jogger felt threatened. If you believe a strange animal is going to bite you, do you wait to be bitten?

I feel a lot of your examples are in a situation where the person being approached by the animal has sufficient time to make a proper judgment call while also knowing the necessary facts to respond appropriately.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Are we still going at this?

We should replace "beating a dead horse" with "kicking a dead pug."

 

[Shiggy]

But the breed DOES matter. A Pug could barely (if at all) do damage do a person standing still. A pug can barely eat its own food out of its bowl. A pug can barely BREATHE.

But somehow, this breed can suddenly manage to clamp down on a jogger while running itself?

Yeah no. It's impossible. In no universe that exists could a pug have bitten this guy in THIS context. Could it attempt to though? Of course. Wont deny that. But there's no evidence of that here. The jogger doesn't even claim it tried to bite.

So we're back at...he's an asdhole.

Well, pugs can bite. And they can make your leg hurt. I don't see much talk from the man in the article. If he just kicked the dog for the sake of it, yes, asshole. If he felt being attacked, I find it a reasonable choice to prevent being harmed. You don't know when he noticed the dog and whether he realized what kind of dog it was. Even if the dog could simply bite into my leg without injuring me deadly, using reasonable force is a legal option. I don't know if the guy intended killing the pug, which is ugly as hell, but that would be an inexcusable action.

It makes quite a different to me when I can just outrun the dog in question.

Depends on where it's coming from and how fit you are. Also, if you feel threatened, your brain is in danger mode and all you can think of is how to avoid getting hurt. Probably never been chased by a dog and felt in danger?

 

[Wazzy]

But the jogger felt threatened. If you believe a strange animal is going to bite you, do you wait to be bitten?

I feel a lot of your examples are in a situation where the person being approached by the animal has sufficient time to make a proper judgment call while also knowing the necessary facts to respond appropriately.

If you feel threatened by a tiny dog then you've got issues.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Silly guy. It's Punt, Pass & Kick, not Pug: Pass or Kick.

This was pretty good.

 

[Prinz Eugn]

Instincts? Do people think this pug magically appeared out of thin air next to his feet or something?

We don't know when he realized the dog was there, so from his perspective that might have been exactly what it felt like.

 

[bishoptl]

If the dog hasn't bitten then yes, I do think he needs to be bitten in order to react appropriately. You don't get to just react to something that hasn't happened yet.

That's not how the law works, however.