EricTheCleric
Member
but the dog was attacking him
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East Bay jogger kills 15-pound pug with a kick
- Thread starter Dalek
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but the dog was attacking him
……forgetit
Member
I mean dogs running at you is really bad when you're a jogger, nothing you can do but run away from it or kick it if it plans on biting you. We don't know the whole story, but reasonable doubt leads me to believe the guy is innocent. At the end of the day the woman should have had her dogs on leashes.
You don't think killing people's pets is a crime? Just because the dog is off leash doesn't mean you can kill them, especially if they pose no real threat to you.
If I have own private property and someone is walking on it, can I just kill them and say "whelp, if they weren't on my property, I wouldn't have killed them. It's 100% their fault because the broke the law first"
I've been bit twice by dogs, both when I was younger.
The first time it happened I required stitching and several precautionary shots. It was a larger dog, I can't recall the breed but it was fairly old looking, and the owner bailed on me after her dog had torn my hand open and my entire arm was covered in blood. The thing had fucking mauled me, biting me numerous times and dragging me down with enough force to lead to lasting injury to this day in my right hand. I was 10 years old at the time and terrified, and now in retrospect I know why the owner told me to go to the hospital and bailed - her dog attacked me, unprovoked on the street, if we had her info we could've sued and get her dog put down.
The second time I was bit happened like a year later with a much smaller dog that randomly chased me down the street and bit me in the ankle. It broke skin but it didn't really hurt because I was in shock since it was a scary situation, and again this happened just randomly on the street while on an errand for my parents. Again, the owner took no responsibility beyond apologising and bailed.
Despite these two nasty incidents, I still like dogs. Some of my closest friends have dogs and I still play with them, but only after I make sure they're familiar with me and the owner supervises the first few times.
As far as strangers' dogs goes though, if it's supposed to be on a leash, and it isn't, if that thing charges my way with intentions I can't determine, it is getting the shit kicked out of it. I've had dogs run beside me and up to me whilst out jogging and it's generally easy to tell when they're being playful so I have no issue at all when that happens, it can actually be fun, albeit potentially dangerous considering they should be on a leash.
There was this one time though where this couple were walking their two dogs, fairly big, and they kept growling and charging towards me and had to be called off sharply by their owners every time. I knew there was a dog park like a quarter mile further away so it kind of pissed me off, so when I ran past the couple on my third lap or so, I warned them that if their dogs charge at me again growling I would kick them.
Pets are great. I actually like dogs, but if they're supposed to be on a leash, keep them on a fucking leash, and don't take them to regular parks unleashed unless no one is around.
In this case, being older and bigger now, I wouldn't kick the pug unless I had reason to believe it was going to bite, in which case, I wouldn't give a shit if it wouldn't break my skin or not, it's getting, at the very least, a tap.
Now, I don't know how you kill a 15 pound pug with a tap, and if it was indeed deliberate, that's a despicable act, but assuming it wasn't, then I can't fault the jogger in this instance.
The first time it happened I required stitching and several precautionary shots. It was a larger dog, I can't recall the breed but it was fairly old looking, and the owner bailed on me after her dog had torn my hand open and my entire arm was covered in blood. The thing had fucking mauled me, biting me numerous times and dragging me down with enough force to lead to lasting injury to this day in my right hand. I was 10 years old at the time and terrified, and now in retrospect I know why the owner told me to go to the hospital and bailed - her dog attacked me, unprovoked on the street, if we had her info we could've sued and get her dog put down.
The second time I was bit happened like a year later with a much smaller dog that randomly chased me down the street and bit me in the ankle. It broke skin but it didn't really hurt because I was in shock since it was a scary situation, and again this happened just randomly on the street while on an errand for my parents. Again, the owner took no responsibility beyond apologising and bailed.
Despite these two nasty incidents, I still like dogs. Some of my closest friends have dogs and I still play with them, but only after I make sure they're familiar with me and the owner supervises the first few times.
As far as strangers' dogs goes though, if it's supposed to be on a leash, and it isn't, if that thing charges my way with intentions I can't determine, it is getting the shit kicked out of it. I've had dogs run beside me and up to me whilst out jogging and it's generally easy to tell when they're being playful so I have no issue at all when that happens, it can actually be fun, albeit potentially dangerous considering they should be on a leash.
There was this one time though where this couple were walking their two dogs, fairly big, and they kept growling and charging towards me and had to be called off sharply by their owners every time. I knew there was a dog park like a quarter mile further away so it kind of pissed me off, so when I ran past the couple on my third lap or so, I warned them that if their dogs charge at me again growling I would kick them.
Pets are great. I actually like dogs, but if they're supposed to be on a leash, keep them on a fucking leash, and don't take them to regular parks unleashed unless no one is around.
In this case, being older and bigger now, I wouldn't kick the pug unless I had reason to believe it was going to bite, in which case, I wouldn't give a shit if it wouldn't break my skin or not, it's getting, at the very least, a tap.
Now, I don't know how you kill a 15 pound pug with a tap, and if it was indeed deliberate, that's a despicable act, but assuming it wasn't, then I can't fault the jogger in this instance.
……forgetit
Member
Does it matter? You know we have laws that prevent things like this from happening right? They're called leash lawsband the owner violated them. Those are in place to protect other people and the dogs. The jogger did nothing wrong here and I 100% would have done the same thing in that situation.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Antisocial? Why? Just because I would fight for my dog like most other people would for their family members? Inredasting....
Don't judge from one to the others. I always keep my dog on the leash in town and only let him off near the woods. He is an animal after all who wants to run free.
Had to keep mine on the leash for a couple of weeks after he torn his muscle. The happiness he had when I let him off again cannot be described.
……forgetit
Member
In this case no crime was committed, just like it's not a crime if a dog runs in the street and you hit it. The jogger has no idea why the dog ran at him, and if it was going to bite him. Doesn't matter if it's no "real" threat, even a pug can bite and latch on enough that it would require stitches, the moral of this story is keep your dogs on a leash.
If a dog is off the leash and hit by a car, then it is definitely the owner's fault, as the motorist didn't not intend harm on the dog. In the jogger's situation, he felt threatened by a 15 pound pug, and kicked it. His intention probably wasn't to kill it, but he is definitely in the wrong here. I don't think jail time necessarily, but if the woman sues him I think she will win pretty easily and the jogger will be paying a heavy fine
balladofwindfishes
Member
With what evidence? There isn't even proper evidence the dog died due to the dude kicking it... (not to say that's not how it died, but there's no evidence either way). There aren't any witnesses.
She has as much of a case to sue him as he does to sue her for being attacked by her unleashed dog. No lawyer worth hiring is going to encourage her to sue him because a countersue is just as easy to hand out in this case and he'd honestly probably have an easier time winning because he did everything proper by notifying the police himself, immediately, while she had her dog unleashed and was neglectful of her property to the point where it could have endangered another person.
……forgetit
Member
She'll lose and do you know why? Because other people aren't oblicated to care about your animals, does it matter if the pug could have killed him? No because it could have caused, albiet superficial, harm to him. So he can deter the animal from doing so. The only rights the dog has are property rights. Which don't factor in because the fog was off it's leash. Of the situation was turned around and the pug actually biy him, even of it didn't cause any grievous injury, the guy could have sued, and would have won. He's not liable for anything and on the eyes of the court did no wrong doing. Dogs aren't people and don't have rights, of a dog attacks someone, which this one did, the can defend themselves, which this person did. Really the only person at fault here is the owner.
The owner fucked up, and the jogger was a bit too harsh on the poor thing.Where are you getting that info that the dog did, in fact, attack this man and his actions were self defense?
She would not have a hard time arguing that her 15 pound pug does not endanger another person and that the jogger acted irrationally given he has no injuries and the dog is dead
……forgetit
Member
He said it, and in a court of law that's all we have, what he said vs what she said, and personally I find it more likely that a pug ran up to a dude and bite at him than a guy who happened to be running ran down a dog to kick it and then ran away, and called the police himself. What evidence do you have that the dog didn't attack him?
Actually, with Castle Doctrine, I'd be well within the realm of legality killing anyone I deemed to be a threat on my property. And that's humans, brotha.
I've seen a few cases of pretty clear cut animal homicide throughout my life, and none, I repeat, none were ever brought to trial.
There is no evidence of an attack though. If he had bite marks or scratches, that might hold up. The only evidence is a corpse of a dog with no other party being injured.
……forgetit
Member
No, we have ashes of a dog, and if he kicked before it bit there would be no bites or scratches. Also we don't know if the dog died from the kick, it could have just had a little heart attack from all the excitement for all we know, no body left so no way to prove shit.
balladofwindfishes
Member
To even start a case, how is she going to prove this guy even killed the dog at all? She cremated the body. There was no autopsy. There are no witnesses. The dog could have died of a heart attack away from the jogger and she blamed him because he was close and she saw easy money. Not saying that's what happened, but there's no evidence that anything happened at all.
It's weird that she wants to demand justice or compensation, but destroyed the only evidence that would have led to that...
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
I did and I am failing to see why I am ignorant for owning a dog. Can you give specific examples?
……forgetit
Member
That guy was being kind of a jerk, but I think what he was getting at was a lot of dog owners believe that they have rights that they just don't have. The only way that this guy was going to jail or even gotten charged in court was to prove without a shadow of a doubt that he went out of his way to kill a dog. Even if he had a knee-jerk reaction to a dog running at him and kicked it then he's still within his rights. In the video they mentioned that he had been attacked by a small dog earlier and was just legitimately afraid of small dogs. If that's the case, and the dog DIDN'T attack him, he just freaked out when he saw it, that's still not a crime.
Coming from a guy who loves dogs, trust me, you keep your dog on a leash, because anything can happen when you take them off and you're basically liable for all of it.
I live in the hood and there is a pack of wild chihuahuas and mutts that harass anyone getting into their vehicles.
I've been caught off guard by one at like 5am, and almost punted it to the next block. I was wearing jeans but still felt the sting from the bite, would have sucked if I was wearing shorts. Those little fuckers can bite. I'm gonna give the jogger the benefit of the doubt. You guys blaming him and not the irresponsible owner are in the wrong.
Keep your dog leashed and it won't get kicked.
I've been caught off guard by one at like 5am, and almost punted it to the next block. I was wearing jeans but still felt the sting from the bite, would have sucked if I was wearing shorts. Those little fuckers can bite. I'm gonna give the jogger the benefit of the doubt. You guys blaming him and not the irresponsible owner are in the wrong.
Keep your dog leashed and it won't get kicked.
I looked up California's Castle Doctrine stance and it only applies when a person has unlawfully or forcefully entered a residence. That implies if a person is unlawfully in your house, then it is justified to kill them. That would not include a person walking through a front yard.
I could not sit on my roof with a rifle and anyone who steps foot on my property is immediately a threat and I am justified to kill them.
True.
I was just pointing out how that comparison is a bit flimsy, in addition to comparing humans to animals.
……forgetit
Member
Quick question, are you an actual attorney? I know there are a few on GAF and I want to get their opinions on this.
Anyone who says you have to leash a pug are monsters without a heart. The only threat Pugs pose off leash is to their own lives from aggressive dogs and horrible people. Now if this was an aggressive dog, then sure keep it on a leash, but not letting a harmless dog run free is cruelty.
I work with corporate attorneys, but I am not one.
balladofwindfishes
Member
DAVIDHUXLEY
Member
I am not on this side or that side but...
Once while I was running on the trail behind my house a Pomeranian comes barreling around a bend and takes a bite out of my calf .a small bite so no big deal. The owner walks up and says don't mind him he is friendly . At this point I relate to her that he just bit me. She looks me straight on the eye and says no he didn't and refuses to believe otherwise . I cannot think what I would have done if he had come at my then toddler. This park requires leashes and of course the dog was not on a leash. Dogs off their leashes happen all the time with breeds from pit bulls to pugs .
Once while I was running on the trail behind my house a Pomeranian comes barreling around a bend and takes a bite out of my calf .a small bite so no big deal. The owner walks up and says don't mind him he is friendly . At this point I relate to her that he just bit me. She looks me straight on the eye and says no he didn't and refuses to believe otherwise . I cannot think what I would have done if he had come at my then toddler. This park requires leashes and of course the dog was not on a leash. Dogs off their leashes happen all the time with breeds from pit bulls to pugs .
I am a Paralegal, although this is outside of the field I work.
Speculawyer is a lawyer (as his name implies), but I don't know what his field of law is in.
Eternal Gamer
Member
It's really sad the dog died, however it is his owner responsibility for not using a leash. You aren't walking with your dog in the backyard of your house.
Your analogy doesn't really compare similar situations though. Saying you'd shoot someone who just steps foot onto your property would be more like the guy punting the dog for sitting there. You'd react differently if the dog was charging at you, just like you'd act differently if someone entered your private property swinging a bat or waving a knife.
You keep saying there's no evidence that the dog was aggressive, but there's no evidence that the man kicked it for no reason either, other than conflicting stories.
Hari Seldon
Member
Yeah dogs not on leashes at parks piss me off. If a dog came at my toddler I'd kick that fucker into the next county and then file charges against the dog owner.
Reminds me of when my buddy called me one time saying that he kicked a dog in the face as he was running. I got so pissed at him and ended up breaking contact for the longest time. People need to learn how to read a dog's intent a little better if they're expecting to ever be in the same area as them (which is pretty much everywhere). It's not hard to know when a dog is mad versus when a dog is playful.
But I'm also with most of you in that the dog needed to be on a leash. If the dog had gotten loose, that's another story, but this lady was walking the dog.
But I'm also with most of you in that the dog needed to be on a leash. If the dog had gotten loose, that's another story, but this lady was walking the dog.
The analogy is the jogger is the property owner, whereas the unleashed dog is the person on private property. The person whose on private property and the dog are in violation of a law (trespassing and being unleashed, respectively), but those violations do not justify people to kill them.
As I said earlier in this thread, if I went to a park and saw an unleashed dog playing fetch with his owner, I could not stomp the dog's head in just for being unleashed.
The lack of witnesses does complicate things, but given the breed/size of the dog and no marks on the jogger, his side of the story doesn't hold much weight since he can't prove anything, but the woman can prove that he kicked her dog, because she has a dead dog and the man admitted to kicked it.
balladofwindfishes
Member
actually she doesn't have a dead dog. She has a pile of pug ashes that doesn't legally prove anything.
Pug ashes come from dead pugs, right?
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
same, kicking my dog is the same as if I kicked that mans child, dont do it
balladofwindfishes
Member
You said she could prove he kicked her dog because she has a dead dog.
She cannot prove he kicked her dog because she doesn't have a dead dog. She has the ashes of that dead dog that can't be used to prove anything.
……forgetit
Member
The point he's making is we can't prove the dog was killed by the kick, yes it's pretty obvious he was killed by the kick, but there is no proof of it.
Also another big issue is that if the guy felt threatened by the dog, and the dog went after him then there's no crime on his part. People are afraid of all kinds of things AMD if he's afraid of small dogs, then he's afraid of small dogs. Doesn't matter if it's reasonable. He just felt threatened and defended himself.
Phrozenflame500
Member
I'm willing to defer judgement on the conflicting stories, as I can reasonably imagine a scenario where either story could be valid. Depending on how fast the dog and jogger were moving, and where the foot connected I do think it's possible for it to be unintentional. I could also imagine a case where somebody could just be asshole enough to kill a dog. Either story is equally plausible in my mind.
That being said, it is 100% indisputable that the owner is at least partially at fault for not leashing the dog.
That being said, it is 100% indisputable that the owner is at least partially at fault for not leashing the dog.
The guy said he kicked the dog and it fell over dead.
Can you defend yourself against threats though? If you perceive something as a danger to your well being (in this case, a small pug), can you then become the aggressor and be justified? Genuine question
Edit: I guess you can, considering all the police violence that happens before the person does anything to the officer, even if violence is implied in the other person's actions.
CrocMother
Banned
Owner is 100% at fault. Ask anybody who works with animals and they will tell you.
Shuggananas
Banned
"100% at fault" lol
Haha.. thread is classic. False equivalencies and stubborn black/white opinions everywhere.
0% chance your opinion is unbiased.
Yes, nobody's arguing the dog shouldn't have been on a leash.
Does it matter? Yes, I'd say it does. Most rational people don't see a dog off leash and immediately assume it's aggressive. Since you think the runner did nothing wrong, then you believe it's OK to kick and kill a pug if it's approaching you. That's your stance, and my stance is that it's wrong.
Just to summarize my thoughts. I still have yet to see someone whose defending the jogger refute any of these points.
Owners of aggressive dogs aren't in the habit of risking a lawsuit by letting their dogs off leash.
Neither the jogger or the owner said the dog was barking/growling/vocal. If the dog WAS aggressive and barking, the jogger should have mentioned this since it supports his argument.
Pugs cannot run fast. If the jogger saw the dog approaching him, he should have been able to avoid the dog.
Here's another potential scenario to think about. An outdoor cat approaches you on your front porch. Do you immediately assume the cat is aggressive and punt it off the porch? I mean, some people don't like cats, and cats can be aggressive too. It's possible the cat could have rabies and be a bigger danger than the pug. Those defending the jogger believe this course of action is justified.
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