Paul checks his latest text:
"Fuck me in the butt"
"Geeze, this girl is fucking crazy!"
*Emma standing behind him*
"You haven't seen shit yet, Paul"
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Emma Sulkowicz's (Columbia mattress girl) New Art Project is a Sex Tape- Jezebel link
- Thread starter Tom_Cody
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Paul checks his latest text:
"Fuck me in the butt"
"Geeze, this girl is fucking crazy!"
*Emma standing behind him*
"You haven't seen shit yet, Paul"
The messages are posted all over the internet.
Wiktor
Member
Jeez. This seems like a quote from Fatal Attraction remake.
Corronchilejano
Member
Remember: This compilation is done by the supposed rapists' lawyers, and no, they aren't verified nor attached to the document.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Seems pretty clear there's something wrong with her, and her antics only serve to give talking points to ugly MRA groups while hurting actual victims of sexual assault/rape.
In order to be attached to a legal document to be used as evidence, first hand verified versions of those messages would have to be sent as evidence as part of the complaint. You can't "make up" those messages and then add them as part of the complaint. That would get the accuser jailed immediately. Those messages are legitimate and verified.
I understand why it's being used to put pressure on them to handle this stuff better (which is a good thing)- but because it's a process that's been hijacked this way it's carrying a lot of unwanted procedural incentives for colleges alongside the positive improvements.
They're real, she responded/annotated them in a Gawker article.
Having said that, it's not like having someone fb message "I love you" means this was or wasn't rape. Legally, he's innocent until proven guilty and he might get a tidy payday from Columbia. But, for the purposes of "discrediting" Emma, it doesn't prove that a rape did or did not occur. And Paul's been accused by multiple people, long before any of this was publicized or a media story.
It's definitely a slippery slope to shield yourself with "the system is broken, therefore any and all accusations should be taken as fact," but I think the college sexual assault system clearly has some problems. And, in this case, there may be no fire, but there is some smoke.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Any messages from around mid-August of 2012 and onward were verified by Emma. In fact, she made comments about many of them in a Jezebel article in order to add what she felt was needed context. I'm not sure about any messages before that, though.
Brohenheim
Member
Oh god why did you remind me of this!
That was rather terrifying.
It is hard to say what is going on here but I don't think other people should help her in such performance pieces. It might be way to a get this whole thing out her system but I feel like she is just falling deeper into the abyss.
Not that I'm gonna change anyone's mind who already thinks those messages are 'damning' but trying to carry on like everything is normal (and those are pretty normal college age texts/messages) is pretty common for rape victims. Not that that fact says her allegations are true, but it for sure isn't proof of her lying about anything.
Imagine having consensual sex with someone, it turns violent or they start doing things that you said not to do. They don't beat you within an inch of your life like rape happens in movies and on the news, but they violate you. They act like nothing bad happened the next day. There's no damning physical evidence, you're thinking maybe its not that big of a deal, you don't get a rape kit, you try to carry on because you think 'I didn't get raped, I can't get raped, I was having sex with someone I trust.' etc. Is it not rape because you took so long to realize what happened to you was wrong? Is it not rape because you didn't go right to the police, try to beat the person off of you, try to act like it wasn't a big deal afterwards? No of course not.
Now like I said before, that scenario being common doesn't mean that Sulkowicz's scenario is exactly that (and I'll refrain from my actual personal thoughts on the whole fracas), but jesus christ, seeing the comments about her messages make me ill. If you get raped you have to act a very specific way or else you're mostly fucked and so many people will never believe you.
As for the video, well, she's a performance artist. Just go do some research on the people she probably was learning about while in school and you'll see that she has company in what she does. Her subject is rape. She's going to be producing some fucked up shit.
tfur
Member
EDIT: I guess I was duped, as I was expecting real content since I was commenting in regards to a legal document.
The sex "art" video certainly isn't helping her case either.
She must have had some counsel regarding how she is going about this rape victim demonstration like the mattress situation. Who told her this was a good idea?
It's satire.
Very true. But it should have been blatantly obvious when it was stated that neutral reporting of an accused's claims of defense would not be permitted as they 'revictimize the victim'. I mean, that's as blatant a trampling on human rights and civil liberties as you'll find right there. Surprised anyone fell for it, but as you say, that speaks to the current atmosphere surrounding such issues.
tfur
Member
Well... then what the hell, why would someone link to that in the thread?
John Kowalski
Banned
Well, seems like she's chosen to be as upfront and obvious as she can. She might as well cash in on her popularity and use it to her own ends.
Lol @ "wats da nuse".
Lol @ "wats da nuse".
It also bears worth mentioning that popehat has had to post similarly crazy things that weren't satire - which is why people aren't fully sure it is satire or not. Finding something that crazy legitimately and mocking it is completely normal for the site.
This is more than likely the intended effect.
Moral Panic
Member
It's not real.
Yikes.
I do think campus sexual violence is an issue that needs to be examined, and I'm for rape victims telling their story, speaking out and "owning" their experience, but something about this woman just doesn't jibe well with me.
King Tubby
Member
I agree that in many cases it's a messed up situation but I just don't see how people are expected to act or think when it comes to criminal proceedings or investigations when all or most of the evidence provided is the word of the accuser. At that point there is little of a defense to be mounted except for using the accuser's own words or deeds against them. I really don't see how else it can work.
No matter how you slice it Emma's credibility is going to take a hit from this art piece among anybody who hasn't firmly made their mind already.
Exactly. Acquaintance rape is common. The fb messages don't prove that a rape occurred, but they definitely don't prove that a rape didn't occur. Which means, legally, Paul is innocent, but it hardly "discredits" Emma in the sense that she's some crazy vindictive bitch who is lying about being raped in order to ruin this guy's life. It just means it's he said/she said. If she wants to make art about the experience of being a rape victim at a university, fine. The reason I don't think she'll be liable for defamation is because she never released Paul's name to the press or with regards to the mattress project, Paul's the one that did that so he could sue the university. But I know very little about defamation law.
(Of course, there were the bathroom "rape lists" that I guess could be argued released Paul's name to the public which was the first time all this hit the media circuit and started a mini firestorm but that was long before anyone on GAF gave a shit about this. And there's no way to prove that that was Emma.)
I agree, it preaches to the choir and alienates everyone else. Maybe she just wants to make art about how she feels; it certainly doesn't make for effective activism. But, then again, if it's "art" first, activism second (however tenuously you want to draw those lines) then... if that's what she wants to do, I guess that's what she wants to do.
TimorousPanda
Member
Holy cow. Crazy stuff.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
John Kowalski
Banned
Art is often protest.
There is no evidentiary standard that has to be satisfied in order for a piece of evidence to get attached to a complaint. You do not even have to attach copies of documents or other evidence you reference in your complaint to the complaint. In fact, most complaints are filed without any sort of evidentiary attachments because there is rarely any benefit to doing so.
The fact that the messages are referenced in his complaint are in no way, shape or form an indication of their legitimacy, and I'm curious why you think they are.
Eh, I know a lot of girls who act like that. Childish sexual texts, intentionally poor spelling, etc. I don't think Sulkowicz is actually mentally ill, but I believe that she's more interested in getting attention and sympathy than getting closure about what Nungesser did to her.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
They certainly don't paint Paul as a serial rapist.
Even if this does happen, you don't get to make up a story to try and tip the scales of preponderance of evidence. There can be any number of reasons for why she did and said the things that she did and said, but the facts show that he has been lying about great many things, repeatedly.
As a society, we should not and cannot be allowed to punish people without evidence. If there is zero evidence that a crime has been committed (not even a preponderance of evidence), how can you justifiably punish the accused?
She repeatedly violated Columbia's own Title IX investigation policies and started a campaign of systematic harassment against the alleged rapist.
The FB comments, as Paul's lawyer editorializes, paint a picture of a girl who was head over heels for the guy and chose to destroy his life because he did not reciprocate her affection. And yes, it's pretty damning that she had a history of false rape allegations, that she had introduced anal play into their 'relationship' (despite having denied doing so), and that both of her character witnesses were full of shit.
It's a quite literal reenactment of her allegations of what occurred on the night in question.
I'm probably the last person anyone would accuse of being a rape apologist on this forum, but the handling of this case by Columbia has been a complete joke. Colleges have no business conducting rape investigations. They make a mockery of the entire system and do a gross disservice to victims everywhere by allowing this chicanery to persist.
I know there's some mixing but her characterizing it as primarily as performance art rather than as a protest, and knowing how it affected that guy's life, does not help her case in my eyes. It introduces other motives for her actions, like was this just art for art's sake or art to protest that how the U handled my allegations?
We'll see. I think the lack of publicizing his name protects her on libel/slander grounds, not sure about harassment—I think most harassment protections are workplace related... another place where Title IX takes the place of law. I think first amendment protections are liberal enough to protect her here. (If Paul had legal grounds to sue her, he probably would have by now.) Whether that's justified or moral is another, murkier, question.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Bu-bu-but she's a survivour!
Disgusting.
Please point out the evidence where Nungesser did in fact rape her, because the only evidence that actually exists does not work in her favour.
Corronchilejano
Member
That's just because the banneds' messages were deleted.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
From his point of view, he gains very little by suing her. It's much smarter for him to go after Columbia.
Also, just a minor correction to your previous post: His name wasn't outed because he sued Columbia, it was because she filed a police report and the Columbia Spectator published it since it was public record as a result of that report. Here
So technically, he did nothing to put his name out there.
mmh yes, the portuguese breakfast
electroshockwave
Member
You're missing a word there. If neither the university or the District attorney had reasonable suspicion then you can hardly treat it as fact that he raped her.
I agree with Sho_Nuff, it seems like she wanted revenge because her feelings weren't reciprocated.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Ah, got it. Thank you.
Well, from the mattress project, there's not much evidence that it was. I guess that's where the line between private and public correspondence becomes blurry, because she told all of her friends about it, but strictly going off of the "art" that she got credit for from Columbia... I'm not sure? I honestly don't know, I just know that the first amendment makes defamation suits very difficult in the US. This particular art project definitely seems far more pointed in identifying Paul though.
Actually, I take it back. Since she filed the report, he probably stands a better chance.
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