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[east of eastside]

Thanks for clarifying.

No, for 2 reasons:

1) Lack of an internal hard drive.

2) We haven't seen final form of console yet. Judging anything off last year's E3 is foolish, especially with the latest rumor about the devkits.

How reasonable is it to expect that the case size undergoes a significant increase in volume, though? There is no precedent in gaming when a prototype console was debuted that was significantly smaller than the final product, is there? Did they really build a working chipset and form factor that was so different just for it's E3 2011 debut? I agree, though, it is foolish trying to derive a final judgement without knowing what the final product is.

Gaming laptops are smaller than a ps3 or a 360 yet very powerful .

Using mobile versions of graphics chips, though.

Yeah, the small casing is definitely what's limiting the Wii U. His point is pretty moot as a a lot of laptops with internals smaller than the 360S run circles around it (in graphics power). Tech from 2011/2012 is just faster for less power. All stuff we've seen suggested as parts seem to fit just well enough for a small console (laptop parts equivalent to the devkit part have been around for almost 3 years). The Wii U could probably be substantially more powerful if they would have used a bigger box though...

Yeah, but isn't that rumored chip RV770, or whatever, known to consume something like 140 watts?

If you took that chip and reduced its power consumption by half (or more), by reducing its clock speed, would that fit with rumors of Wii U's expected performance?

 

[EloquentM]

How reasonable is it to expect that the case size undergoes a significant increase in volume, though? There is no precedent in gaming when a prototype console was debuted that was significantly smaller than the final product, is there? Did they really build a working chipset and form factor that was so different just for it's E3 2011 debut? I agree, though, it is foolish trying to derive a final judgement without knowing what the final product is.



Using mobile versions of graphics chips, though.




Yeah, but isn't that rumored chip RV770, or whatever, known to consume something like 140 watts?

If you took that chip and reduced its power consumption by half (or more), by reducing its clock speed, would that fit with rumors of Wii U's expected performance?

I think the RV770 was in very early dev kits and was underclocked due to heating issues. don't quote me on it though.

 

[JJConrad]

I read the articles and I'm trying to figure out mathematically how WiiU can be both 2 times as powerful than the 360 but yet 20% less powerful than the new Xbox when that's 6 times as powerful as a 360.

I've been out of school for a while so is there some sort of new math going on here?

The author of that article put together a bizarre defense of the story's origins. Long story short, he had an old rumor of the dev kits being 2x more powerful but didn't have the balls to publish it back when he first heard it. He then decided that IGN's 5x rumor was confirmation of his rumor, or close enough, and put his story up. Short story shorter, he was just riding coattails.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

How reasonable is it to expect that the case size undergoes a significant increase in volume, though? There is no precedent in gaming when a prototype console was debuted that was significantly smaller than the final product, is there? Did they really build a working chipset and form factor that was so different just for it's E3 2011 debut? I agree, though, it is foolish trying to derive a final judgement without knowing what the final product is.

I'm fairly sure that the Wii that Iwata whipped out of his jacket that time was smaller than the finished product. They made a fuss over how it was the size of 3 DVD cases or somesuch.

 

[snesfreak]

The author of that article put together a bizarre defense of the story's origins. Long story short, he had an old rumor of the dev kits being 2x more powerful but didn't have the balls to publish it back when he first heard it. He then decided that IGN's 5x rumor was confirmation of his rumor, or close enough, and put his story up. Short story shorter, he was just riding coattails.

Pretty much this.

 

[bgassassin]

Yeah, but isn't that rumored chip RV770, or whatever, known to consume something like 140 watts?

If you took that chip and reduced its power consumption by half (or more), by reducing its clock speed, would that fit with rumors of Wii U's expected performance?

It's most likely that they are going to use a smaller process than 55nm. But we're getting off topic so I won't be going further. We can continue it in the Wii U thread though.

I'm fairly sure that the Wii that Iwata whipped out of his jacket that time was smaller than the finished product. They made a fuss over how it was the size of 3 DVD cases or somesuch.

It was larger and he said the intent was for the final to be smaller (3 DVD cases).

 

[Brimstone]

MS is going to use an ATI 7000 chipset. People just seem to ignore that this chipset is made with power consumption and heat in mind.

I doubt it...more likely HD 8000 series which is obviously unreleased.


There is no pressure on Micorosoft and they can reduce the price of two key pieces of hardware the conosole and kinect. They also have Halo launching this year.

XB720 in 2014 seems more likely now.

Say 40% chance 2013 and 60% 2014.


2014 will make it much easier for them to give Tim Sweeney, major publishers, and hard core gamers what they want...a giant leap in graphical power not a small step.

Wii U a small step...XB720 a giant leap.

 

[Wolfie5]

It's like every GAF thread is stuck in some weird Groundhogs Day loop.

We have not talked about Wii U price and line-up yet



Seriously, every next gen thread goes through all other next gen threads.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Using mobile versions of graphics chips, though.

Yes, of course not as powerful as desktop models, but very capable nonetheless.

 

[Saint Gregory]

The author of that article put together a bizarre defense of the story's origins. Long story short, he had an old rumor of the dev kits being 2x more powerful but didn't have the balls to publish it back when he first heard it. He then decided that IGN's 5x rumor was confirmation of his rumor, or close enough, and put his story up. Short story shorter, he was just riding coattails.

Pretty much this.

But... I guess I should just be happy that I'm not going crazy.

I really don't care how powerful any of the new consoles are (I do my high end gaming on PC) but I'll be glad when all this rumor a speculation is over. Epic's not helping things at all though by setting everyone's expectations so high. MS really bent over backwards by bumping up the 360s RAM for GoW and now Epic seems to want to set the standards for RAM, CPU and GPU for this gen.

 

[DCKing]

Yeah, but isn't that rumored chip RV770, or whatever, known to consume something like 140 watts?

The rumoured devkit part did 95W on a desktop card, which is probably why we heard about early devkits overheating. You're welcome to discuss this in the Wii U thread as bgassassin said though.

When it comes to Samaritan graphics, I found some parts to be REALLY impressive, and some parts less so. The opening parts are really drop dead gorgeous, but close up on the character burning through the chain it looks actually kind of bland. I wonder why they made it that way.

 

[szaromir]

But... I guess I should just be happy that I'm not going crazy.

I really don't care how powerful any of the new consoles are (I do my high end gaming on PC) but I'll be glad when all this rumor a speculation is over. Epic's not helping things at all though by setting everyone's expectations so high. MS really bent over backwards by bumping up the 360s RAM for GoW and now Epic seems to want to set the standards for RAM, CPU and GPU for this gen.

We should all be happy Epic are advocating for technological progress. A lot of time has passed since 360 launch and now it'd be nice to see actual leap in processing power.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

We should all be happy Epic are advocating for technological progress. A lot of time has passed since 360 launch and now it'd be nice to see actual leap in processing power.

You'd honestly get that with a variant 2010 chip. High end or moderate.

A larger pure technical jump than between the Xbox and 360. 360 is based on high end 2004 tech. Before high end GPU's started using the power of an entire Xbox 360. Fusion using a GPU variant based on 2010 high end is still going to have fairly high power usage. Rumors are it's using a 2011 moderate part.

But we don't even know the case size for two of them.

I think given some of the power rumors Fusion will be sized somewhere between the 360s and the OG model. If the first time they show off Fusion it's as large as a OG PS3 or OG 360 we can safely say the rumors have been completely off, and get ready for a huge power boost... and potentially spotty build quality.

 

[Plinko]

When it comes to Samaritan graphics, I found some parts to be REALLY impressive, and some parts less so. The opening parts are really drop dead gorgeous, but close up on the character burning through the chain it looks actually kind of bland. I wonder why they made it that way.

I felt this way as well. I'd like to see it demoed on something less dark/gritty/dudebro but I could understand why they'd want to considering it appeals to so many gamers today.

 

[Death Dealer]

MS really bent over backwards by bumping up the 360s RAM for GoW and now Epic seems to want to set the standards for RAM, CPU and GPU for this gen.

MS should listen to Epic again if they have advice for next gen. Can you imagine what a colossal mistake it would have been if X360 shipped with only 256MB of ram ? The graphics for its whole lifespan would have been dramatically worse.

Hopefully neither Sony or MS cheap out on the hw. They don't have to go ultra high end, but no gimping either.

 

[BigTnaples]

I felt this way as well. I'd like to see it demoed on something less dark/gritty/dudebro but I could understand why they'd want to considering it appeals to so many gamers today.

Dudebro is such an over used and stupid term...


Not to mention you are saying that Blade Runner/Deus Ex inspired technology demo is dudebro now? Come the **** on...

 

[Saint Gregory]

We should all be happy Epic are advocating for technological progress. A lot of time has passed since 360 launch and now it'd be nice to see actual leap in processing power.

Advocating power for consoles? Who's that helping exactly? Not Sony/MS/Nintendo surely.

I'd rather have the big three release consoles that have reliable hadware and won't bankrupt them to build and sell at an affordable price. If they can do that and achieve Epic's goals then that's great for everyone involved.

MS should listen to Epic again if they have advice for next gen. Can you imagine what a colossal mistake it would have been if X360 shipped with only 256MB of ram ? The graphics for its whole lifespan would have been dramatically worse.

Hopefully neither Sony or MS cheap out on the hw. They don't have to go ultra high end, but no gimping either.

They absolutely did the right thing and they should have taken things a step further and used a high capacity disc format but those choices did/would have cost them a fortune this gen. All three console makers should be working with third parties to get recommendations for next gen but when one of those third parties are recommending hardware that would be difficult to stuff into a ATX super tower at under 1000W then maybe you should scale that back just a little.

 

[zoukka]

First video shows walls from Crysis 2, last shows destruction from Force Unleashed.

...

The force unleashed video is old as fuck and the crysis wall thingy blended different textures. Which are still made by artists. Not some procedural algorhythms.

 

[szaromir]

You'd honestly get that with a variant 2010 chip. High end or moderate.

A larger pure technical jump than between the Xbox and 360. 360 is based on high end 2004 tech. Before high end GPU's started using the power of an entire Xbox 360. Fusion using a GPU variant based on 2010 high end is still going to have fairly high power usage. Rumors are it's using a 2011 moderate part.

IIRC the GPU in Xbox 1 had like 21GFLOPS of programmable processing power. 360 had 240GFLOPS, so ~10x progression would seem logical. I think that kind of leap is achievable in 2013 and asking for smaller increase is not reasonable seeing how the IT/consumer electronics world evolved since 2005. High end 2013 GPUs will be much more powerful than that anyway.

BTW 360 is not based on high end 2004 tech, GPU's size wasn't as big as X1800's but its featureset was newer and it greatly outperformed 2004's GPUs like GF6800 or X800.

Advocating power for consoles? Who's that helping exactly? Not Sony/MS/Nintendo surely.

I'd rather have the big three release consoles that have reliable hadware and won't bankrupt them to build and sell at an affordable price. If they can do that and achieve Epic's goals then that's great for everyone involved.

What's the benefit of launching a new console when the potential customer sees very little difference between his old console and the new one. Traditionally new, previously unattainable quality of games running on the new device was the biggest incentive to buy the new console. Yes Wii was a gigantic success, but what's the guarantee that the next gimmick will prove as popular?

 

[mickcenary]

Just popped in here, guys. Can someone give me the lowdown, i.e. what are the chances that we'll be seeing Samaritan-esque visuals, given the current windows/projections/costs of the next consoles?

I, for one, don't really see it happening. I hope they prove me wrong, though.

 

[nasos_333]

IIRC the GPU in Xbox 1 had like 21GFLOPS of programmable processing power. 360 had 240GFLOPS, so ~10x progression would seem logical. I think that kind of leap is achievable in 2013 and asking for smaller increase is not reasonable seeing how the IT/consumer electronics world evolved since 2005. High end 2013 GPUs will be much more powerful than that anyway.

BTW 360 is not based on high end 2004 tech, GPU's size wasn't as big as X1800's but its featureset was newer and it greatly outperformed 2004's GPUs like GF6800 or X800.


What's the benefit of launching a new console when the potential customer sees very little difference between his old console and the new one. Traditionally new, previously unattainable quality of games running on the new device was the biggest incentive to buy the new console. Yes Wii was a gigantic success, but what's the guarantee that the next gimmick will prove as popular?

I think 360 Xenos was based on late 2005 - 2006 tech, like the unified shaders and the pipeline has spec above DX9 and SM3.0

And completly agree, Wii was a successful test, but nothing MS would go for

 

[aeolist]

Just popped in here, guys. Can someone give me the lowdown, i.e. what are the chances that we'll be seeing Samaritan-esque visuals, given the current windows/projections/costs of the next consoles?

I, for one, don't really see it happening. I hope they prove me wrong, though.

Nobody knows for sure. Wait for E3.

 

[RoboPlato]

Quick question, does anyone have a link to a high quality version of Samaritan? I've been looking for a long time and have never found one that didn't look like a rerecording of a video or an off screen.

 

[themadcowtipper]

Just popped in here, guys. Can someone give me the lowdown, i.e. what are the chances that we'll be seeing Samaritan-esque visuals, given the current windows/projections/costs of the next consoles?

I, for one, don't really see it happening. I hope they prove me wrong, though.

Wiiu won't, I hear it can barely run text adventures.

 

[Jinko]

Quick question, does anyone have a link to a high quality version of Samaritan? I've been looking for a long time and have never found one that didn't look like a rerecording of a video or an off screen.

Try that http://www.udk.com/showcase-samaritan

 

[statham]

Just popped in here, guys. Can someone give me the lowdown, i.e. what are the chances that we'll be seeing Samaritan-esque visuals, given the current windows/projections/costs of the next consoles?

I, for one, don't really see it happening. I hope they prove me wrong, though.

at the very least it'll be able to do it @720p at best 1080p

wiiU at worse cannot do, at best 720p

 

[RoboPlato]

Try that http://www.udk.com/showcase-samaritan

Awesome thanks. I've been wanting to put it on my PS3 for a while so I could look at it on a 1080p screen and really get a feel for what they're going for.

 

[Saint Gregory]

What's the benefit of launching a new console when the potential customer sees very little difference between his old console and the new one. Traditionally new, previously unattainable quality of games running on the new device was the biggest incentive to buy the new console. Yes Wii was a gigantic success, but what's the guarantee that the next gimmick will prove as popular?

I'm not sure I understand the metric we're using to approximate how much power is necessary to be "next gen".

And aside from that I don't believe that the Wii is that much of an outlier. Console power has never been a major factor in deciding console success, games have always decided that. Earlier this gen when plastic accessory/motion games were popular the Wii had a great run. Later on when CoD exploded and the Wii was ill suited for it we saw the PS360 combo start to take over, it wasn't really hard to see coming.

 

[Plinko]

Dudebro is such an over used and stupid term...


Not to mention you are saying that Blade Runner/Deus Ex inspired technology demo is dudebro now? Come the **** on...

I agree with you in a sense. To be honest, everyone's definition of the word is different.

I was just looking at a few things: dark, gritty, strip clubs, guns and ammo shop signs, main character is a gruff man with a stubbly beard and lights his cigarette with a blowtorch, guns blazing, punching people through windows, the "blood splatter" effect, etc.

It IS an overused term--my apologies for using it, but it fits my definition of the word.

My point was I'd like to see it used in something a bit less...dark, maybe?

 

[quinntendopower]

does that figure account for frame tearing and texture pop-in?

they were more then happy with that shit for consoles this generation

 

[H_Prestige]

What's the benefit of launching a new console when the potential customer sees very little difference between his old console and the new one. Traditionally new, previously unattainable quality of games running on the new device was the biggest incentive to buy the new console. Yes Wii was a gigantic success, but what's the guarantee that the next gimmick will prove as popular?

They'll buy it because it's the new thing and marketing will make them want it. Once games start coming out for 720 left and right, people will forget the 360 ever existed, just like they forgot the ps2.

 

[Plinko]

They'll buy it because it's the new thing and marketing will make them want it. Once games start coming out for 720 left and right, people will forget the 360 ever existed, just like they forgot the ps2.

Joke post?

 

[themadcowtipper]

I'm not sure I understand the metric we're using to approximate how much power is necessary to be "next gen".

And aside from that I don't believe that thw Wii is that much of an outlier. Console power has never been a major factor in deciding console success, games have always decided that. Earlier this gen when plastic accessory/motion games were popular the Wii had a great run. Later on when CoD exploded and the Wii was ill suited for it we saw the PS360 combo start to take over, it wasn't really hard to see coming.

True, but look how much the wii sold while it was hot. It would take MS and SONY 4+ years to catch up to the wii total sales.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Joke post?

Has to be. The PS2 has sold just as many units since the 360 launched as the 360 has in total.

 

[statham]

Joke post?

hes pretty much right, 6 months into next gen, people will forget last gen. now I sure in some countries where next gen did not launch yet , the old gen will still be sold cheap. but as a gamer, when the next gen is 6 months in, I always lose interest in last gen.

 

[H_Prestige]

Joke post?

Nobody gave a flying shit about the ps2 once this gen started. It wasn't the new hot thing anymore.

 

[statham]

Has to be. The PS2 has sold just as many units since the 360 launched as the 360 has in total.

to feed you, did people lose interest in xbox when the 360 launched? how about GC?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

to feed you, did people lose interest in xbox when the 360 launched? how about GC?

There was never much interest in either of those two platforms.

It's not applicable to the PS2. They've sold around 50 million of those things since the PS3 launched.

 

[Saint Gregory]

True, but look how much the wii sold while it was hot. It would take MS and SONY 4+ years to catch up to the wii total sales.

The Wii had the benefit of popular games that were accessible to a larger range of people than CoD and other shooters are. Right now though there's nothing of note being released for the Wii that can compete with the big games that the HD consoles are seeing.

Has to be. The PS2 has sold just as many units since the 360 launched as the 360 has in total.

Exactly, the PS2 has sold a ton of consoles under the radar as a bargin system.

 

[statham]

Has to be. The PS2 has sold just as many units since the 360 launched as the 360 has in total.

Nobody gave a flying shit about the ps2 once this gen started. It wasn't the new hot thing anymore.

everyone that bought a ps2 after 6 months of ps3 being released bought it for old games not for any new games, thus budget shoppers.

anyone creating games 6 months after ps3 launched was for ps3, unless it was a budget title for the budget crowd that was buying ps2 games/systems.

 

[BigTnaples]

I agree with you in a sense. To be honest, everyone's definition of the word is different.

I was just looking at a few things: dark, gritty, strip clubs, guns and ammo shop signs, main character is a gruff man with a stubbly beard and lights his cigarette with a blowtorch, guns blazing, punching people through windows, the "blood splatter" effect, etc.

It IS an overused term--my apologies for using it, but it fits my definition of the word.

My point was I'd like to see it used in something a bit less...dark, maybe?

Fair enough. I too would like to see UE3.9-4 shown off using a scene closer to something out of Halo, Gears or Mass Effect

 

[Thunder Monkey]

everyone that bought a ps2 after 6 months of ps3 being released bought it for old games not for any new games, thus budget shoppers.

I'm not arguing against that.

To think that anyone aside from message board gamers and developers had dropped the PS2 is ignoring the reality in which the PS2 outsold both the 360 and PS3 in the two years after their launch. By a fairly good clip too.

We've never seen a console generation like this past one. Adoption for the consoles expected to take the throne was completely anemic. The console that did inherit the torch plagued by lack of quality software and developer interest.

 

[H_Prestige]

There was never much interest in either of those two platforms.

It's not applicable to the PS2. They've sold around 50 million of those things since the PS3 launched.

I don't know why you bring this up, it's not important. The ps2 was not a relevant factor in people's purchasing decisions for this gen's consoles. No kid said, "well fuck, this wii only has two gigaflops more graphics than my playstation 2 so I guess I'll pass."

The 720 could be 1.1X as strong as the 360 and it will still be on everyone's christmas list. Because "it's the cool new Xbox with the new Halo and COD and all your friends and co-workers are getting one too". MS can still sell 360 super slim to the poorest market segment and underdeveloped nations like Sony's been doing.

 

[DieH@rd]

Hey guys why dont we talk for a while about console memory?! PC memory is so cheap these days!
/runs away

Quick question, does anyone have a link to a high quality version of Samaritan? I've been looking for a long time and have never found one that didn't look like a rerecording of a video or an off screen.

3.3GB version @ http://www.fileplanet.com/219009/210000/fileinfo/Unreal-Engine-3-'Samaritan'-Real-Time-Demo-Video

 

[statham]

H_Prestige is going a different route then me, but he does have a very solid point. its the new thing, people will want it.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I don't know why you bring this up, it's not important. The ps2 was not a relevant factor in people's purchasing decisions for this gen's consoles. No kid said, "well fuck, this wii only has two gigaflops more graphics than my playstation 2 so I guess I'll pass."

The 720 could be 1.1X as strong as the 360 and it will still be on everyone's christmas list. Because "it's the cool new Xbox with the new Halo and COD and all your friends and co-workers are getting one too". MS can still sell 360 super slim to the poorest market segment and underdeveloped nations like Sony's been doing.

I don't disagree with any of that.

I'm just saying for a console that was no longer in the public eye, it sure sold a lot of consoles. More than either the PS3 or 360 in their first couple of years. I'm not exactly arguing with you man. The launch of the new consoles didn't exactly slow the PS2 down. It might not have been the "new cool thing" but it was the reliable thing that burned continuously.

 

[themadcowtipper]

Hey guys why dont we talk for a while about console memory! PC memory is so cheap these days!
/runs away






3.3GB version @ http://www.fileplanet.com/219009/210000/fileinfo/Unreal-Engine-3-'Samaritan'-Real-Time-Demo-Video

MS should get their memory from newegg it is crazy cheap. /breakdances out of the thread.

 

[RoboPlato]

There also is a chance that Samaritan's requirements could come down. The numbers he quoted were likely from running the original demo in real time and that was on a UE3 variant. Actually running on UE4 which will likely have a lot of nips and tucks to the way it renders various effects so it'll likely either look better or run smoother on similar tech.

 

[Saint Gregory]

I don't know why you bring this up, it's not important. The ps2 was not a relevant factor in people's purchasing decisions for this gen's consoles. No kid said, "well fuck, this wii only has two gigaflops more graphics than my playstation 2 so I guess I'll pass."

The 720 could be 1.1X as strong as the 360 and it will still be on everyone's christmas list. Because "it's the cool new Xbox with the new Halo and COD and all your friends and co-workers are getting one too". MS can still sell 360 super slim to the poorest market segment and underdeveloped nations like Sony's been doing.

I think especially earlier this gen the PS2, with its cheap price and enormous library, might have cost the Wii/360/PS3 some sales from new consumers. I agree though that the Wii won't have that kind of impact on next gen but what about a budget 360?

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I doubt it...more likely HD 8000 series which is obviously unreleased.


There is no pressure on Micorosoft and they can reduce the price of two key pieces of hardware the conosole and kinect. They also have Halo launching this year.

XB720 in 2014 seems more likely now.

Say 40% chance 2013 and 60% 2014.


2014 will make it much easier for them to give Tim Sweeney, major publishers, and hard core gamers what they want...a giant leap in graphical power not a small step.

Wii U a small step...XB720 a giant leap.

Developers have Xbox720 dev kits NOW. Where do you think the leaks are coming from. We've even seen rumors of final dev kits hitting in march/april of this year. Hell we've seen rumors the they've already started production on the final chips for dev kits. They don't usually sit on final dev kits for 2 years before releasing a system. The next Xbox will be out long before 2014. It's not going to have an HD8000 series part.

You can stick your head in the sand and go lalalalalalalala all you want. That's not going to stop the next Xbox from releasing before 2014. I'd say there's a 100% chance of it hitting in 2013, and probably a good 75% chance of it hitting the end of 2012.

http://www.fudzilla.com/processors/item/25619-oban-initial-product-run-is-real

http://semiaccurate.com/2011/12/05/exclusive-xbox-next-chip-just-taped-out/

http://www.vg247.com/2011/11/16/rumor-ubisoft-montreal-has-next-generation-xbox-devkit-in-house/

Where there's smoke there's usually fire.