Naturally. But just like the statements from Cameron saying he wouldn't resign if he lost this referendum, it's a complete fiction. Article 50 already states that there would be a negotiation between a state that voted to leave and the EU.
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EU- Referendum for the UK..... Neogaf UK are you in or out?
- Thread starter Tak3n
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Naturally. But just like the statements from Cameron saying he wouldn't resign if he lost this referendum, it's a complete fiction. Article 50 already states that there would be a negotiation between a state that voted to leave and the EU.
Pretty much. We leave and the EU will say 'We're going to fuck you in the ass for walking away'. We stay, and Brussels will say 'You obviously like our regular ass fucking enough to stay, have some more'
Well, apart from those whose jobs disappear.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
As someone who is not familiar with what is happening with the EU/UK, what is the situation and what are the pros/cons for leaving the EU.
If England's industry goes bust in the event of the EU leaving then I guess regular people will start feeling it sooner or later.
QuicheFontaine
Member
We have an industry??
JohnnyWestlake
Banned
Out, assuming we make some decent trade agreements first (and we'll have to keep some form of freedom of movement going - can't just kick out millions of Europeans 
), so I'm happy with that.
As long as it means the EU Government has less control over us, go for it. Unless we actually a chance of fixing the EU government up, but that's not likely
), so I'm happy with that. As long as it means the EU Government has less control over us, go for it. Unless we actually a chance of fixing the EU government up, but that's not likely
PJV3
Member
It depends what your political position is.
Do you care more about a social Europe or free markets and trade?
And then there are the unknowns, it is a political hand grenade being thrown into the old order if we exit.
Daffy Duck
Member
I'm siding on out too at the moment.
Well, the UK as would have no way to oppose any european decision if they leave. So they would have more control on the economical level. And there is clearly stuff where you wouldn't trust Cameron without europe. Like privacy which the union is really really obnoxious about. Always wanting to stop people that want to get rid of it.Out, assuming we make some decent trade agreements first (and we'll have to keep some form of freedom of movement going - can't just kick out millions of Europeans
As long as it means the EU Government has less control over us, go for it. Unless we actually a chance of fixing the EU government up, but that's not likely
Out, assuming we make some decent trade agreements first (and we'll have to keep some form of freedom of movement going - can't just kick out millions of Europeans
As long as it means the EU Government has less control over us, go for it. Unless we actually a chance of fixing the EU government up, but that's not likely
How are we possibly going to make decent trade agreements having told the EU we want to leave? They'll screw the UK just to make sure nobody else dares leave.
And it seems like you are largely in favour of staying in the EU free market. So we'll have to take many EU regulations and laws without any input. Giving Brussels the same amount of control without any input into the process.
I could understand your position if the two outcomes of the referendum were clear and certain. But they aren't, and I'm worried you and many others are reckless..
Any trade agreements would go through WTO
I doubt they're going to want to jeopardise £10.4bn of exports and £17bn of imports by dicking us about.
The fact the UK exports more to the union than it imports already means that the union is less dependant on the UK.
Who just enforce them. They don't make the rules.
Slightly OT but I'm from the UK and have a wedding booked in Sorrento, Italy in August. Does anyone here know if there could be any legal implication to an out vote for us? Would our non-EU status kick in instantly or is there some time before it takes effect?
The euro's already dropped about 0.10-0.15 against the pound since we booked it which pushes the wedding over our original budget (although it's not an increase we can't afford) so hoping this doesn't tank the pound further
The euro's already dropped about 0.10-0.15 against the pound since we booked it which pushes the wedding over our original budget (although it's not an increase we can't afford) so hoping this doesn't tank the pound further
PJV3
Member
There's a 2 year negotiation period cut off(if no agreement is reached), it took greenland longer than that to negotiate a deal when they left the union.
I can see this dragging on, unless we start going down in flames.
WTO law is nowhere near the freedoms granted under EU law. There's absolutely no way WTO law is a 'better deal'.
If we actually gained preferential access to the EU market, that itself could be challenged under WTO law.
Small time vs break up of the EU
Roberto Larcos
Member
Thank fuck for there being a GAF thread. Other forums have half driven me mad - people saying that we need to leave the EU or our wives and daughters will be raped and abused by immigrants and refugees. Not paraphrasing.
Of course, I'm not saying everyone is like that. There are some legitimate problems with the EU and reasons to want an exit. If people know the facts and still want out, then fair enough, all power to them - it does depend on who you are, where you work, where you want to work and all that. But I swear a lot of people are just regurgitating what they're told in the Express as gospel. Does my nut.
All that said, the internet is not the main battleground. The poll of polls has 'remain' with an 8 point lead, and UK conservatism means that the undecideds will likely pull us towards 'remain'. Hopefully Scotland does us a solid too. The fact that the only three parties ever to be involved in a UK government are on the same side too will also help sway a lot of undecideds.
Of course, I'm not saying everyone is like that. There are some legitimate problems with the EU and reasons to want an exit. If people know the facts and still want out, then fair enough, all power to them - it does depend on who you are, where you work, where you want to work and all that. But I swear a lot of people are just regurgitating what they're told in the Express as gospel. Does my nut.
All that said, the internet is not the main battleground. The poll of polls has 'remain' with an 8 point lead, and UK conservatism means that the undecideds will likely pull us towards 'remain'. Hopefully Scotland does us a solid too. The fact that the only three parties ever to be involved in a UK government are on the same side too will also help sway a lot of undecideds.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Englands industry won't go bust! Some doors may close, others will open.
That's about it.
CharmingCharlie
Member
To be honest I reckon the referendum question should've been something along the lines of "how do you want to be fucked up the arse by the EU ?"
a) a regular reaming that you pay nearly 11 billion a year for and get told to like it.
or
b) an arse destroying fucking that will lead to you never walking again
Joining the EU is the worse thing the UK ever did. It is inevitable that we are are going to end up with a horrific "United States of Europe" and the UK will probably end up with the catchy name of "District 13". At some point all the "protections" and "vetos" that the UK have are not going to be worth the paper they are written on.
Ah well I am pretty sure that the UK populace will vote to stay in Europe, we are now a nation of cowards to be honest.
Audioboxer
Member
You'd probably end up with a ban on here for some of the vile shit posted on many other sites discussing this right now.
Thankfully I think some of the most vocal hell holes online deal with minorities. Biggest issue is some of the bollocks shared on Facebook that families and friends don't fact check just reshare and post angry comments or shocked emojis.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Hold on, you want to be part of a system that would behave as you suggest?
Unlikely, but because the situation is unprecedented, no one can say for certain. However, a decision to stay in the EU would undoubtedly be pro-GBP, perhaps to a significant margin depending on how much Brexit fears are really affecting the currency. So send out your invitations early with a request to vote In alongside the RSVP!
Roberto Larcos
Member
I think it'll turn 2-speed to be honest. More than it already is. Eurozone countries, with a shared budget, joint taxes and all that stuff. UK and other more sceptic countries deciding 'fuck this, I was happy before'. There's far too much nationalism for every country (or likely even most) to keep going full steam ahead, and I think this is a good thing. But the pain threshold is different for each, so we don't quite know yet. FN in France have snowballed in popularity. A more right wing party in Germany is seeing moderate success. Greece went with the far left, but maybe just as easily could have gone to the far right. And with many countries needing referendums for any further changes to the EU, they will get their chance to speak.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Sounds like the sanest approach to me. And it needn't be as, ah....vindictive as some posters are suggestion.
Frankfurter
Member
Could peeple please stop with this conspiracy BS that the EU will go crazy with the UK should it choose to leave... it's ridiculous to say the least.
What I really like about GAF is that you can have proper discussions here, instead of just reading rage posts.
What I really like about GAF is that you can have proper discussions here, instead of just reading rage posts.
CyclopsRock
Member
As someone who is likely to vote to stay in, it seems weird to me that there's an argument being deployed that is that the EU is sufficiently vindictive and/or has such a high drive for self preservation against the will of the people that they'll self-harm in order to make being outside the EU appear as undesirable as possible to the electorate in the remaining countries, lest they too vote to leave.
That was a long sentence.
That was a long sentence.
I'm not from UK so I don't get a vote. However, I'm from another EU country and I hope UK votes for staying within the EU.
There are some big economies in today's world. Economies like the USA and China. Maybe some day India and other countries. Powerful economies can define the rules of trade. A single European country is compared to China or the USA quite small. However, Europe as a union isn't. A European Union has a vote in today's world - whatever the topic is: trade, diplomacy, tech stuff, etc. There can be a European Union without the UK, no doubt. However, UK is stronger with Europe and Europe is stronger with UK.
Personally, I'm all in for the EU. Millions of people died in wars between European countries. The last great war happened not even a century ago. Actually, talking about centuries: Almost exactly 100 years ago, the battle of Verdun started. A battle where thousands of French and German soldiers died in a senseless war. Today, not just the states of France and Germany work hand in hand, a lot of French and German people are real friends not being able to imagine fighting eachother.
Now, a lot of European (predecessor) states were once the center of the world. Empires like the British, Spanish, French or Roman were glory. Most of those empires are gone since many, many years. However, the British empire still exists in small parts today. So I get how a lot of British people miss the old glory days. However, those days are over. The glory of a British or whatsoever empire won't ever return. There future glory lies in Europe.
There are some big economies in today's world. Economies like the USA and China. Maybe some day India and other countries. Powerful economies can define the rules of trade. A single European country is compared to China or the USA quite small. However, Europe as a union isn't. A European Union has a vote in today's world - whatever the topic is: trade, diplomacy, tech stuff, etc. There can be a European Union without the UK, no doubt. However, UK is stronger with Europe and Europe is stronger with UK.
Personally, I'm all in for the EU. Millions of people died in wars between European countries. The last great war happened not even a century ago. Actually, talking about centuries: Almost exactly 100 years ago, the battle of Verdun started. A battle where thousands of French and German soldiers died in a senseless war. Today, not just the states of France and Germany work hand in hand, a lot of French and German people are real friends not being able to imagine fighting eachother.
Now, a lot of European (predecessor) states were once the center of the world. Empires like the British, Spanish, French or Roman were glory. Most of those empires are gone since many, many years. However, the British empire still exists in small parts today. So I get how a lot of British people miss the old glory days. However, those days are over. The glory of a British or whatsoever empire won't ever return. There future glory lies in Europe.
Indrid Cold1
Member
OUT
Roberto Larcos
Member
Care to elaborate?
CyclopsRock
Member
This argument is over-stated IMO. No doubt the unprecedented era of peace in Europe is an amazing achievement but I don't think it follows (ad hoc ergo propter hoc) that it must be the EU that helped us get there. The post-war nation-building, backed by the US that segued straight into NATO and the Cold War made, from a foreign policy point of view, the idea of another trans-European war between the nations who are now in the EU far less likely on its own. Add to this the fact that we've massively increased global trade to those outside the EU as well as with those within it and I don't think it's hard to imagine that our trade ties - which themselves make War significantly harder and less appealing to conduct - would be much stronger than they were in 1939 even without the EU. After all the common market didn't exist until 1993. Whilst the EU has certainly helped foster those ties, I think they would have been sufficiently strong without the EU's creation to ensure another World-War style war didn't occur.
Must keep an eye for it.
kavanf1
Member
No, but it is also nothing personal. They will have to send a signal to other (wavering) members that staying is more advantageous than leaving. They won't jeopardise trade with Britain or do anything too aggressive (from their perspective) but they will play pretty hard in the end.
As I see it the truth is nobody knows what the economical ramifications will be, economics is an art not a science. Leaving will probably hurt less that the "stay" camp is arguing and more than the "leave" campaign is suggesting.
Personally as a fellow European I would rather see Britain join up with other euro-questioning countries and campaign for reform from within, there is enough opposition but Britain is doing a piss poor job in seeking alliances and voting and campaigning strategically.
Im really fond of him, think he's a good leader. Much better then what we got with John Major/Blair and Browne. But that's for another topic.
Great speech BTW, leaning towards IN today.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Throwing up trade barriers that only punish its own people would be heavily avoided. Especially if the UK removes its trade barriers.
He is at least charismatic and articulate, regardless of whether you agree with him or not. He is Prime Minister material.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
KarneeKarnay
Member
I'm all for Europe. I think a unified Europe is the future. I think most agree that Europe as a nation, will happen at some point in the next 500 years, possible sooner.
I don't think it will happen with the EU. The EU feel just too half assed. The European Parliament doesn't actually seem like it does much of anything. Instead it feels like Germany and France get together, and forces changes, as opposed to a group desire to change.
So much of it feels like a half measure.
I think that's what a lot of people feel like in the UK. They want closer ties with Europe, but the don't want...
And no one quite sees the benefit of.
I've had a lot of benefit myself from the freedom of travel. My soon to be wife, is from Portugal and her parents moved here when Portugal joined the EU. Her parents and most of her family are all hardworking people.
Her Uncle on the other hand is the reason immigrants get a bad rep. He is the nicest guy, but he moved to the UK, no money to support himself, his wife and two kids from Poland. Demanded a place to live from the council and the benefits provided by the UK. He got them all. He now has a job and is working, but his arrival is exactly what annoys people the most.
For me the biggest problem with the EU is how it handled Greece and other countries. Instead of funding the local business and infrastructure project, it crippled them. How the EU handled and continues to handle these nations is the biggest flaw in the EU. One that has led to this scenario where countries like the UK, no longer see the benefits.
David Cameron has it all wrong. He shouldn't demand better deals for the UK, he should be demanding reform in the EU.
I don't think it will happen with the EU. The EU feel just too half assed. The European Parliament doesn't actually seem like it does much of anything. Instead it feels like Germany and France get together, and forces changes, as opposed to a group desire to change.
So much of it feels like a half measure.
I think that's what a lot of people feel like in the UK. They want closer ties with Europe, but the don't want...
And no one quite sees the benefit of.
I've had a lot of benefit myself from the freedom of travel. My soon to be wife, is from Portugal and her parents moved here when Portugal joined the EU. Her parents and most of her family are all hardworking people.
Her Uncle on the other hand is the reason immigrants get a bad rep. He is the nicest guy, but he moved to the UK, no money to support himself, his wife and two kids from Poland. Demanded a place to live from the council and the benefits provided by the UK. He got them all. He now has a job and is working, but his arrival is exactly what annoys people the most.
For me the biggest problem with the EU is how it handled Greece and other countries. Instead of funding the local business and infrastructure project, it crippled them. How the EU handled and continues to handle these nations is the biggest flaw in the EU. One that has led to this scenario where countries like the UK, no longer see the benefits.
David Cameron has it all wrong. He shouldn't demand better deals for the UK, he should be demanding reform in the EU.
The EU is a right-wing mess right now. I applaud people like Varoufakis for still having faith in reforming the Eu but I lost hope myself.
It would be better for the UK to stay seeing their privileges inside the union but right now I want them to leave in the hopes that the whole thing comes crashing down.
It would be better for the UK to stay seeing their privileges inside the union but right now I want them to leave in the hopes that the whole thing comes crashing down.
QuicheFontaine
Member
On this point, I think Boris mentioned this in his column. No-one could realistically call what Dave managed to negotiate in a two-day summit "meaningful reform" either of the EU as a whole, or even just our relationship with the EU. It's just a couple of "extrawursts" (as I believe the Germans call it) for the Brits. And pretty small wursts at that. Chipolatas practically.
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