KarneeKarnay
Member
Exactly. He's just trying to make a show of looking like the guy who tackled the EU and won. The backdown is super strong with him. He cares more about winning an election than trying to better the UK and Europe.
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EU- Referendum for the UK..... Neogaf UK are you in or out?
- Thread starter Tak3n
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Exactly. He's just trying to make a show of looking like the guy who tackled the EU and won. The backdown is super strong with him. He cares more about winning an election than trying to better the UK and Europe.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
I'm voting out I think.
I know it sounds harsh but I don't think that the eastern european countries should have been let in for at least another decade. They threw the balance of the EU economies right out the window and all have been struggling since they became economic magnets for those from poorer countries.
I don't like how some countries are getting thrown the the wolves for others mistakes. If a country like Spain struggles to thrive and compete because its got a constant foot on its head, others will follow.
I know it sounds harsh but I don't think that the eastern european countries should have been let in for at least another decade. They threw the balance of the EU economies right out the window and all have been struggling since they became economic magnets for those from poorer countries.
I don't like how some countries are getting thrown the the wolves for others mistakes. If a country like Spain struggles to thrive and compete because its got a constant foot on its head, others will follow.
It is rather annoying.
However he knows how to get his point across effectively and as a result, is a good leader.
QuicheFontaine
Member
The thing that grates is that it's worked (is working?) to an extent. I've seen a few people in this thread saying they're voting Remain "especially in light of this new deal", or similar. Setting the date as soon as possible after the negotiation leaves as little time as possible for the Leave campaign to pick through it too.
paradise_circus
Member
The best kebab still stays on the mainland though.
Lol, most European migrants are adding net contributions to the income in countries such as the UK, more so than British natives who are actually presenting a loss. The economic struggles and financial crisis/collapse which we were or are still recovering from was nothing to do with the migrant situation, and everything to do with global financial markets, namely in banking, and that's not going to change going forward.
New EU migrants add £5bn to UK, report says
The massive portion of additional funding governments are having to invest to accommodate for the influx of migrants, in things like education, NHS expansion, more housing etc, are only going to be of long term benefit to all citizens in the long run, so it's not even like it's such a bad thing.
I agree that cameron is just posturing. and its frustrating that he isn't actually trying to enact positive change in the EU, though I think the EU is mostly positive and I will personally be voting to stay in, despite the EU having problems. I believe the best way to tackle the problems is to change the EU for the better, not throw the bath out with the bathwater up and leave because we can't get some special treatment.
liquidtmd's post sums up my view on the EU and this whole thing. I just lean on the "staying in to change it" side
Roberto Larcos
Member
ECHR decisions are not binding on UK courts, just persuasive.
And this is why I'm more inclined to listen to Boris - at least he's raising this as an underlying issue which his driving his position .
I've heard Cameron say before 'We can't help shape the EU political landscape if we're not part of it'. Thats kinda disingenuous when the more unaccountable aspects of the EU political structure seem untouchable In or Out.
If Cameron had gone to the table last week and said 'Screw concessions, agree to have independent financial auditor review and achieve sign offs that any large scale business would be subject to' - Id be Voting to stay In a million percent.
But they won't and never will. I love the EU. I believe in the EU project. But it is broken and my issues with it can't be remedied by the In Campaign shouting at me telling me the sky will fall if we leave. If you were in an abusive relationship, the abuser threatening you and telling you you may as well not leave as the consequences will be dire - you advise that person to walk. If the abuser came to the partner and at least attempted to say 'Look I hear why your considering walking but this is how we can make it work in the future' - that you would see as more reasonable.
I'm still a floating voter at this point and I will listen to those in either camp that don't resort to abstract threats.
Bananajama
Banned
The ultimate problem isn't with immigration really.
It's lack of investment in public services
Schools, Roads, NHS, Doctors Surgery etc.
Address those in the hardest hit immigrated to areas
You wouldn't have as much unrest from immigration.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the net cost of immigrants going up in 20+ years time after they start ageing and needing the NHS etc. All those coming are of prime working age, fit and healthy.
But ...that leads to
We also need immigration due to an ageing population because we've all stopped producing irresponsibly.
Funny thing is though if we'd continued boinking irresponsibly we'd have the same problems but couldn't blame immigration
I know, but it will get reported to death, and cause constant issues, like for example the prisoner voting issue
Right, but that lack of investment is a governmental problem, not one pertaining to migrants, or the fault of migrants. The government should be investing a lot more in to those public sectors with or without the influx of migration, especially when it's the migrants who are actually contributing the most (and in a way paying for much of that expansion), and British natives who are actually costing us the most.
Whilst I know it will be different from area to area, what have the negative impacts of immigration actually realistically been to your life? I've not really noticed any notable differences to the service at my local surgery, hospital or anything else, beyond the norm, not least because of immigrants. I also actually find it easier to find employee's for my businesses, and economy/business in my local city is actually thriving (Bath). I think the only real negative is the housing situation, where too much demand is causing prices to skyrocket, and the market to become crowded. For that I partially blame the government for not investing far more in to new housing.
Bananajama
Banned
Exactly what I was saying - its a Government problem that's led to the anti-immigration school of thought in a large swathe of the country
I moved out of the country a while back so its not a personal anecdote. (Though I intend to move back to England at some point as I'm on the firm belief that its not that bad really - Grass is Greener etc)
But visit my Gran from time to time in the grim north and my brother lives there with his kids.
Essentially you could 10 years ago get into the doctors within 2 days of phoning.
Now She has to wait 2 weeks plus.
A&E - Average waiting time in the area has shot up.
School - Nephews classrooms regularly have to be combined due to lack of teachers/rooms - think last week was in a classroom of 58 - you can't teach that.
It's not much - but it all adds up into a feeling of resentment and immigration is the easy thing to point the finger at - but not the right one
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Lol, most European migrants are adding net contributions to the income in countries such as the UK, more so than British natives who are actually presenting a loss. The economic struggles and financial crisis/collapse which we were or are still recovering from was nothing to do with the migrant situation, and everything to do with global financial markets, namely in banking, and that's not going to change going forward.
New EU migrants add £5bn to UK, report says
The massive portion of additional funding governments are having to invest to accommodate for the influx of migrants, in things like education, NHS expansion, more housing etc, are only going to be of long term benefit to all citizens in the long run, so it's not even like it's such a bad thing.
There's more to the immigration issue than just money. I don't believe looking at the UK as a whole when it comes to immigration stats is sensible either. Some areas of the country are clearly positively impacted, that cannot be argued, whilst others are hugely negatively impacted and struggling to cope, unfortunately these tend to be the areas who were already struggling to cope before.
There's a lot of NIMBYism's I see thrown around when it comes to this argument, very few are useful to the debate.
I appreciate that, but I think people are wrongly pointing fingers at immigrants in this situation, when in actual fact it's a governmental issue where the Conservatives have their priorities displaced, in preferring to spend less in social services and more elsewhere, as well as a reluctance to get more funding for such things by increasing upper bracket taxes, or more aggressively taking on tax avoidance loopholes etc. I know it's a really abstract thing to use as an example, but the big increase in MP's pay, and belligerence regarding Junior doctor contracts, really does exemplify the situation, and where the governments priorities lie.
Bananajama
Banned
Personally, even though Cameron's deal is borderline meaningless, I think we should stay in the EU as for me it's a net positive. That said, lets look at it from the other side for a second -
Do you think the average native should care if an immigrant makes the country's economy larger and slightly richer? Especially considering the individually felt proven effects like stagnant wages and the housing crisis? Sure in theory everything should scale up if tax revenue goes up, but reality doesn't always work like that, and when it does it takes years/decades to feel it (especially with how slow development and infrastructure projects are in the UK). Is there any real difference between a native saying "We don't want more migrants because they're using already stretched local services" and "We don't want more migrants because they're using and paying for local services but this country takes too long to scale up so I'll be left feeling the effects for 15 years until it corrects itself"?
Also, do those figures include retired UK natives? Because it's a bit disingenuous if they do considering how much they account for public spend, and migrants (who are usually of working age) will eventually get old too.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...axpayer-60billion-bill-for-new-hospitals.html
We haven't even paid for the hospitals we built over the last decade or so, and won't for another few decades though. Labour struggled to "invest" during what we now know was a boom and instead kicked the can down the round and it's starting to bite.
My personal opinion is that it's less the migrants that are stretching our services (which is obviously still true), and more that our services are simply not getting the proper attention and not nearly the necessary funding required to accommodate expected and inevitable expansion. That obviously comes down to a question of where the funding should come, and that's where there are fundamental differences in how I'd imagine the left and right side of the political isle view these things. I suspect a large swath of the right are perfectly fine with such services being less reliable and efficient, especially if they can use the funds that would have otherwise been invested in to them, elsewhere, and when they themselves are more likely to use private institutions for both healthcare and education.
It's weird, despite being anecdotal, through my business I actually have dealt with different elements of the government and public institutes, and it always surprises me just how different they operate and are in terms of available funds and finances. You have the NHS and hospitals, schools etc that basically count every penny and work to a strict budget, and then you have government, MOD etc that have so much more leeway with funds, almost having free reign, and yet they both use public tax payer money.
easily solved
Non UK Citizens
£10 per GP visit (£10 fine for missing appointments)
Schooling £10 per week for non uk citizens
Hospital £100 per stay, operation ec
all money gets reinvested into those services. not into government coffers
Charles Brandon
Member
OUT
no...wait...
IN
no...wait...
IN
Great idea - but the EU would absolutely not allow us to do this in a month of Sundays.
(Thats not to say our own Government could implement this and manage it even if given the go ahead)
So on top of them contributing far more in terms of revenue and taxes, you want them to additionally pay for services that are not only free to UK residents, but services that are free to UK residents who might visit their own countries too?
Would you be happy paying such charges if you went to work in another European country? Bare in mind, this is on top of taxes and social insurance/national insurance charges that you might already be contributing, and which are theoretically meant to pay for these things in the first place!
And this is why no one cares, should you vote to leave.
EDIT: Also- thanks for helping the USA causing a mess in the Middle East. We'll send you the bill for taking the refugees you refuse to take.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiH3L3XpJHY
Bananajama
Banned
Only thing I'd agree with on this list BUT.
Apply to everyone
Would cut down the time wasters drastically
If I'm moving to another European country and that's their policy, its not my call to make.
Roberto Larcos
Member
You don't want to disincentivise seeking medical help. To someone on the headline (of which there are far too many), £10 can be a lot. Also, such punitive charges would probably cost more in admin (following up on non-payers) than it would actually raise.
That's the thing. We and other countries decided that it's better if it's not our call to make. Because otherwise one side pulls out, then another says 'fuck that, I'm not paying for your lot' - our lot switch from Spain to Italy, then Italy says fuck you too, this is getting ruddy expensive now. It's one of those things which can seemingly never be agreed without the EU. That would lead to being charged a ton whenever you get sick on holiday, which doesn't really benefit anyone at all.
Also worth noting that health tourism only costs the NHS £200m of its £116b yearly budget, so about 0.17%.
You mean you don't care if we leave. You do not speak for everyone.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Lol, I called up my local practice recently and was flatly told that there's NO APPOINTMENTS. Recent NHS rule changes mean they can't book GP visits more than three weeks ahead, and literally every appointment for the next three weeks was full.
I had to laugh, what could I do? They told me to phone up the next day at 8am to try and see the duty doctor that day. Of course the line was engaged at the stroke of 8am...
Edit:
Regarding the bolded, we already levy a £200 per year "NHS surcharge" on non-EEA citizens staying more than 6 months. This was brought in last year.
As others have said though, that's not gonna fly for EU nationals.
Then you have to put resources into policing payment at the point of use, checking eligibility etc.
And once those resources in place, our Tory overlords will start to get ideas about expanding it.
And the vast majority of non UK citizens pay NI and Income tax via PAYE alongside Council tax so you're basically double dipping them.
Nicktendo86
Member
The thing is we knew exactly how it would play out months ago, the whole plan was leaked (by Tim Shipman of the Times I think). It had the basic demands, the 'rabbit out the hat' of Parliament sovereignty, the last minute fight and the election would be held in June etc. The whole process has been a sham because they knew real reform was never going to happen. I can't find it at the mo but I am sure I read it.
What? You can book up to see your GP up to 3 weeks ahead? Mine you can only book on that day so it is first come first serve. It's the reason I hardly go, when I should.
Ok, so lets make it even harder for poor people, and worse still for people with serious medical conditions that already require them to visit the GP or hospital frequently. What a fucking lovely bunch we are.
Honestly, similar to the US, I think the biggest issue facing Britain today is one of personal conscience and morality. We are getting ever more selfish, fearful, and isolationist as a nation, and it doesn't help that our media is utter turd, and mostly at the behest of an increasingly right wing shit show. Murdoch and his shite has been poisonous.
I've never had an issue with my Doctors. Normally get an appointment within a week if I need it (I had to go for a test at the hospital, went on the Friday, got the verbal all clear there and then but got told I should arrange an appointment with my GP to fully discuss it. Popped in with the letter to the GP's on the way home for the Hospital and got an appointment for the Tuesday). They do an online system though as well as phone so you can monitor it for cancellations. My GP's also have an open surgery Monday, Wednesday and Friday and while it's normally packed. If you are there by 7:45 am (the surgery opens at 8am) you're normally seen by 8.20.
Least you can carry on blaming Murdoch when Rupert dies and his son replaces him. I get Murdoch is a disgusting human being but blaming him for basically everything is mad.
Bananajama
Banned
Fair point
Cost of admin etc.
No go aint it!
Even means testing would be another cost
Suck it up and put the finance into more GP's instead then
Oh I'm not blaming him for everything, but I do think his empire has been a catalyst to some of the detrimental public sentiment today.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Yeah this obviously varies greatly by location. I've talked to my parents who live "oop north" about this and they've never had this problem either. I'm in the South West.
Bananajama
Banned
Ouch - only time I've had to use my local doctor lately was when I got a huge stabbing pain in my chest. Couldn't breathe, keeling over with the pain.
Turned out to be stress
Felt like something far worse at the time
If I couldn't have got into the GP I'd have gone to A&E. Thankfully here can get in within 24-48 hours.
I think it's more to do with the Tories. The Tories shit on the poor over and over then blame it on the migrants coming over. The poor see the rich getting richer, then see the Tories blaming the migrants. Then alot want to hit back so do the only thing they can really do and lean to the right. It's the perfect for the Tories, it means Labour don't have a chance.
Nicktendo86
Member
I don't think that is fair. Fearful? Perhaps, in an age of global terror, people blowing themselves up on public transport, reports of mass rapes in Germany etc etc would naturally make people a bit fearful. Are the media overplaying things? Perhaps, perhaps not.
Selfish? It seems that every year children in need, comic relief etc break records for donations. Hasn't the UK donated more than any other EU country to Syrian refugees? I think we're still a very giving nation. Isolationist? I can't speak for others but I don't want us to break away from Europe and drift off into the Atlantic, it's the institution of the Europe Union that I have issues with.
I don't think we Brits are a bad lot, generally.
Charles Brandon
Member
LOL, I think you'll find they care quite a lot under all the bluster. Or at l;east the people that matter do.
.
You get extremes in every quarter but the general populace of the UK are by and large a reasonable lot. Over the coming months I expect a few in both the In and Out camps to throw insults around with those who don't agree with them whether it be 'Little Englanders' and 'Isolationists' or 'EU Nazis'.
Somewhere in the midst of the two lies the truth and I hope our leaders really step up in their discourse in the run up to the election. Cameron's performance on Monday and conversely Boris' letter on Sunday both impressed me in certain respects so I'm optimistic.
I think we're increasingly getting worse. And yea damn right we're too fearful. I have more chance of getting struck by lightning than I do attacked by a terrorist, yet all I ever seem to hear about is terrorists, ISIS or the instability in the Middle East. And yea the media is massively playing it up. You have thousands murdered by Christian militia in Africa, not a peep. Others slaughtered by Bhuddists in Rohingya, and the only time we properly hear about it is when they jump on boats to immigrate, and so many die along the way. Even then the question posed isn't why are these people fleeing, or what massive injustices have been occurring to even make them consider these dangerous feats, and why haven't we been informed about it, it's what should we do with them or who else can deal with them?
And regarding donations etc, that is bound to happen, in-line with the population increase, even then it doesn't mean much. It's the most basic form of aid (though still massively helpful). How about actually risking our own cozy comforts and pleasures, actually sacrificing the way we live to help others? How many refugee's have we actually taken in? A more important question given we are partly responsible for the crisis in the first place, in pushing for the illegal Iraq war against the wishes of the international community and UN, and at the cost of billions of tax payer pounds and hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. Instead we just agreed to even more bombing in Syria, because that has worked wonders so far!
Anyway, I could go on. But let us dig our own graves. It's the only way people learn.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Edit:
In theory, yes.
In practice, no.
Edit2:
I am a numpty. This wasn't meant to be a new post.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
There's a lot who don't bother because of this. Once you manage to get into the system it's actually decent,there's just a large barrier to get on the first step.
CyclopsRock
Member
Would Scotland not be utterly fuckerood if we left the EU and then they left the UK? I mean, it would be like Ireland on crack (almost literally, actually) given the enormous trade relationship they'd inevitably have with rUK who would no longer actually be in the EU even if Scotland were...
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