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EU- Referendum for the UK..... Neogaf UK are you in or out?
- Thread starter Tak3n
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JonathanEx
Member
Thinking about it, I kinda wish everyone who was voting in a referendum had to pass a test to truly understand what they are voting for, there are far too many people who won't have a clue what in or out actually means, and too much voting will be done on an emotive level due to the immigration issue.
Without looking at the individuals involved in either side of the debate, it seems obvious to me that the benefits of the Union outweigh the drawbacks. Even without political powerhouse David Cameron kicking arse and taking names in Brussels, we get a pretty exceptional deal (e.g. no Schengen, no single currency). It's not perfect but remaining in, even if we don't get any further concessions, is preferable to being out.
Looking at the individuals involved in the out campaign, I'm always happy to be on the opposite side to Nigel Farage, George Galloway and Michael Gove.
It doesn't help that the anti-EU sentiment has for years been closely associated with the tabloids and the racist, xenophobic right that they cultivate.
Looking at how Cameron's been handling the situation, one's tempted to accuse him of being a double agent.
Looking at the individuals involved in the out campaign, I'm always happy to be on the opposite side to Nigel Farage, George Galloway and Michael Gove.
It doesn't help that the anti-EU sentiment has for years been closely associated with the tabloids and the racist, xenophobic right that they cultivate.
Looking at how Cameron's been handling the situation, one's tempted to accuse him of being a double agent.
UK working class here, and I'm all for staying in the EU. I just see the whole organization as a lot more liberal & progressive than a conservative led UK, and I'm willing to dismiss all the talk of "UHMUHGUH THEY TOOK OUR JOBS" as bollocks. As an individual, I'd feel safer in the EU than I would in the UK... Does that make sense? I hope so.
Reluctantly leaning towards 'out'.
I'm pro-European in principle, but I think the EU has become a dysfunctional system crippled by indecision and incoherence. The EU is wracked by crises of its own making, and has proven almost completely incapable of effectively solving them.
The EU needs to be substantially reformed because it's hurting its citizens. But there's very little chance of member states agreeing to any kind of cohesive reform package, because the key cultural-political blocs inside the EU (the Visegrad Group, 'Club Med', France, UK-Netherlands, etc) have fundamentally different (and often incompatible) visions for what Europe should become. The European public also appear to have become significantly more hostile to the prospect of a European superstate, and this further restricts the options for empowering coherent system leadership.
The EU looks like a union until it tries to be one. It's the modern Holy Roman Empire, and I think the spectre of Brexit/Grexit/immigration/stagnancy might be Napoleon coming over the hill.
I'm pro-European in principle, but I think the EU has become a dysfunctional system crippled by indecision and incoherence. The EU is wracked by crises of its own making, and has proven almost completely incapable of effectively solving them.
The EU needs to be substantially reformed because it's hurting its citizens. But there's very little chance of member states agreeing to any kind of cohesive reform package, because the key cultural-political blocs inside the EU (the Visegrad Group, 'Club Med', France, UK-Netherlands, etc) have fundamentally different (and often incompatible) visions for what Europe should become. The European public also appear to have become significantly more hostile to the prospect of a European superstate, and this further restricts the options for empowering coherent system leadership.
The EU looks like a union until it tries to be one. It's the modern Holy Roman Empire, and I think the spectre of Brexit/Grexit/immigration/stagnancy might be Napoleon coming over the hill.
I suppose I should clarify that, even though I wouldn't vote to leave, I am definitely in favour of reforms to make the Union more efficient, more transparent and more democratic. Shit like delaying benefits for immigrants isn't really a priority, and feels like it was highlighted to infuriate gormless Sun and Mail readers.
Thanks to their economy and the size of their population, Germany's definitely the keystone but, while that undoubtedly gives them them power and significance, that also means they bear a lot of the weight.
Thanks to their economy and the size of their population, Germany's definitely the keystone but, while that undoubtedly gives them them power and significance, that also means they bear a lot of the weight.
Any Questions
Member
Not your average reasoned human being.
One of a number of things wrong with George Galloway:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19323783
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19323783
SporeCrawler
Member
I think that is the only solution in the long run. have a federal government that deals with certain issues have local and state governments that deal with others. pretty much like the US. you see in the US that this benefits all states (I mean lets say Louisiana would be a sovereign state and would have to deal with all issues it has alone.. that wouldnt be benefetial for lousiana) even though the system is quite complex and convoluted (its still heaps and bounds better than the EU as a whole).
The greek issue is similar, if financial politics would have been done centrally you wouldnt have a. some states overspending and b. big political problems in solving a state bankruptcy (federal government would roll in pay the bills but govern the state financially until it can stay on its own)
and yes UK is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to reach that future so i am for an out as well.
inoperativ
Member
I don't think I'm allowed to vote since I'm just a resident but 100% in. The UK particle physics community is already struggling financially and leaving the EU would probably kill off quite a few research groups that have been able to survive on ERC funding so far. From talking to researchers in other fields the situation seems similar throughout the scientific community. People are genuinely scared and quite a few are already trying to get jobs in other EU countries just as a precaution. I just went to a goodbye party for someone who's moving back to Germany yesterday -- obviously there are many factors which influence stuff like this but many non-UK citizen postdocs I know don't even bother with applying to UK institutions right now specifically because of fears over leaving the EU.
CharmingCharlie
Member
The stay side aren't exactly paragons of virtue with the likes of David Cameron, Jeremy Cunt, Buffoon Boris (possibly) and the cretin Osbourne. Hell if I wasn't against Europe in the first place I would be voting to leave on the principle that what ever Cameron is promoting is bad for me.
I have no idea, I just want a table or list of all the pros and cons (assuming one doesn't exist) without all the damn hyperbole the campaigners may be giving so I can make a decision based on that and likely scenarios what may happen after. I just don't trust what they (the campaigners) are saying enough to decide... Plus the fact I'm not that informed about the whole situation anyway, so such a thing would be really nice.
Plus I don't really trust a fair portion of our populace to make such a decision anyway...
Plus I don't really trust a fair portion of our populace to make such a decision anyway...
This might be a bit more elementary than what you were looking for:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zgjwtyc
Frankfurter
Member
linkandzelda
Member
The problem with this is that some things are pros to some people and cons to others. For instance membership of the EU leads to partial loss of national sovereignty. To me, I couldn't care less and even think that it is a pro as it leads to a more unified Europe. To others, however, especially nationalists, they see it as a con.
The Pro/Con list depends completely on what your goals are.
ReplacementPelican
Member
Surely you know that this isn't true. The OECD has pointed out numerous times that the UK is the least regulated EU country and issues over exports to other countries being blocked because of regulation is hardly going to be changed if we leave, if anything it would be worse.
Not only that but most of the legislation we keep is home grown and there is no evidence that this situation would change upon leaving. It's actually hilarious to see people saying this as our lawmakers have been consistently pushing for more regulation and not less. Not only that but smaller businesses would not be free of EU regulation if they supply to larger businesses that do export.
To be entirely clear, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research has noted that the Tories have presented far bigger interference in the market than all EU regulation put together and furthermore our own domestic shortcomings (education, infrastructure, etc...) are far more damaging to domestic growth and employment than Brussels.
Furthermore, the Centre for European Reform has concluded that British trade with the EU is 55% higher than it would be if we were outside. I know that much argument has been drawn that if not in the EU market it would go down because we could trade more with China, India, America or whomever else 'Euroskeptics' would like to claim but this makes little sense when one considers that Germany's exports to China are already 300% larger than ours. Jesus, most of our FDI comes from the EU, it's beggar's belief that we should leave. This loss of FDI would lower our GDP by about 2.25%. Actual GDP loss or the lack thereof are so here-there-everywhere that I'd rather not even get into those numbers.
I know this isn't all in response to you but it is a few points of contention which have been bubbling within me today.
Not from the UK, but the one thing I hope this referendum will be good for, would be for changes to happen.
I still don't understand why, except for the symbolism, the EU admitted the eastern european countries in at such a fast pace. The administrative mess it has become makes it largely fail the simple goal the EU had to begin with.
Better than nothing! Will give it a read, thank you
True, I guess in my head I was more thinking of how much £ would be +/- through trade and other things, would we then no longer have to follow various EU laws (I like some of them, such as the consumer right ones, although we've now expanded on those through UK laws) etc.
This being such a complex thing and I'm trying to over simplify it... bah I don't know haha. I guess we'll find out after it's all done.
dapperbandit
Banned
For me voting to leave is more than self interest, from a personal or national perspective. I genuinely think the continent would be better off without the EU, certainly as it exists now at least. At the moment it has extended the single currency to far too many many states. That it's also a political union with an agenda that doesn't match the aspirations of many member states further divides the continent rather than uniting it.
Britain leaving would I think dramatically increase the speed at which the union is reformed or replaced.
Britain leaving would I think dramatically increase the speed at which the union is reformed or replaced.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
No, the UK knows very well that this is impossible. But some people in the UK hope that they can benefit from the EU without beeing a part of it and without contributing.
Switzerland is doing the same thing.
So far its working for them, but unlike the UK, Switzerland was never dependent on global economic influence. And as long as the EU is around them to protect them and be a viable market for them, they're fine. Except maybe their tourism sector, but thats a currency problem.
bobs...onGaf
Member
Im voting to stay in the EU. As much as I dislike Cameron I dont like the idea of the UK losing its relationship with the EU. Moving to other EU countries and having people move to the UK is a good thing.
I dont think the UK has enough british born dr's alone to cope with the loss of people. I know a ton of smart european people who are working very high jobs and would be terrified if their expertise was lost.
I also think I would hate losing the freedom to move to a EU country myself.
I dont think the UK has enough british born dr's alone to cope with the loss of people. I know a ton of smart european people who are working very high jobs and would be terrified if their expertise was lost.
I also think I would hate losing the freedom to move to a EU country myself.
ReplacementPelican
Member
You're using Switzerland as an example? Switzerland doesn't even have access to the single market including for finance. This is why Switzerland have to offshore their banks to London (banks that will, by the way, leave if we do). Switzerland have been finding it increasingly more difficult to do cross-border trade with EU member states. In fact, as price for the very, very limited services that they do receive from the EU they have to accept the free movement of people (something that is a massive issue for many Brits) although to be fair this is being limited next year but this has drastically hurt relations with Brussels and has weakened it's bargaining further and this has damaged student financing and and research money from the EU.
IN
Our time as an Imperial power is long past, and in a world dominated by multinational corporations and superpowers like the US, China, and Russia we need to be thinking bigger to stay relevant. Leave the EU and we become a historical footnote barely worth the mention. We lose masses of skilled workers, we open ourselves to worsening ability to trade with one of the world's largest free trade blocs, we would STILL be regulated by them for trade but without a say in those regulations...
The EU is not and never has been the problem, just another red herring from the right about a roadblock to our destiny or something. We need to learn to manage our cities and their resources better, as well as record and tax our people more effectively...this whole EU renegotiation is deckchair shuffling.
Our time as an Imperial power is long past, and in a world dominated by multinational corporations and superpowers like the US, China, and Russia we need to be thinking bigger to stay relevant. Leave the EU and we become a historical footnote barely worth the mention. We lose masses of skilled workers, we open ourselves to worsening ability to trade with one of the world's largest free trade blocs, we would STILL be regulated by them for trade but without a say in those regulations...
The EU is not and never has been the problem, just another red herring from the right about a roadblock to our destiny or something. We need to learn to manage our cities and their resources better, as well as record and tax our people more effectively...this whole EU renegotiation is deckchair shuffling.
JustinJ004
Banned
From south west England and I'm in 100%
gutter_trash
Banned
the more EU bullshit persists, the more I become a EU skeptic
if the UK wants out, than that is their own sovereign decision to make
if the UK wants out, than that is their own sovereign decision to make
... Which is exactly what is happening (UK people being put to referendum)... ?
IN
it's functionally not a huge choice - if we leave we are going to sign a trade deal with large amounts of the same eu constrictions we have now. i don't care about the trend for tedious nationalist identity politics that glorify independence from some kind of otherized villain; trumping up endless greivances to rail against and promoting ludicrous delusions of nationalist grandeur if we were just free of said villain. yet it's true to say that the uk has an awkward relationship with the continent, i don't feel culturally european.
ultimately there is not an issue in an ever increasingly globalised world that does not require international solutions. our buisnesses function best when they can be as connected as possible creating prosperity, climate change can not be tackled with one country doing its best to reduce its emissions and hoping everyone agrees, huge multinationals are too big for single nation states to regulate effectively, humanitarian crises can't be tackled ad hoc. to reduce the prospect of us work towards these solutions i think is stupid, even if the eu collapses in 15 years with its disastrous management, staying in gives us he best chance to tackle these issues.
it's functionally not a huge choice - if we leave we are going to sign a trade deal with large amounts of the same eu constrictions we have now. i don't care about the trend for tedious nationalist identity politics that glorify independence from some kind of otherized villain; trumping up endless greivances to rail against and promoting ludicrous delusions of nationalist grandeur if we were just free of said villain. yet it's true to say that the uk has an awkward relationship with the continent, i don't feel culturally european.
ultimately there is not an issue in an ever increasingly globalised world that does not require international solutions. our buisnesses function best when they can be as connected as possible creating prosperity, climate change can not be tackled with one country doing its best to reduce its emissions and hoping everyone agrees, huge multinationals are too big for single nation states to regulate effectively, humanitarian crises can't be tackled ad hoc. to reduce the prospect of us work towards these solutions i think is stupid, even if the eu collapses in 15 years with its disastrous management, staying in gives us he best chance to tackle these issues.
s_mirage
Member
In.
I don't find the potential advantages of coming out to be compelling enough to outweigh the leap into the unknown that leaving would be. Plus, the EU acts as a balance against unreasonable behaviour by the UK government, who I never trust completely, no matter the incumbent party.
I don't find the potential advantages of coming out to be compelling enough to outweigh the leap into the unknown that leaving would be. Plus, the EU acts as a balance against unreasonable behaviour by the UK government, who I never trust completely, no matter the incumbent party.
OverBlood 3
Banned
IDS holds a special place in my heart.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Which means we need an Austrian foreign minister to fix all of it? Good luck with that.
The EU has long been criticised as unnecessarily beaurucratic and often barely functional by citizens of its rich member states; however, given the magnitude of the project, it's not surprising that it works less than perfectly.
The financial crisis not only put well-off counties such as the UK into recession, but it also exposed debt crises in some of poorer member states, and the latter had to be bailed out by the former. Radical Islam didn't help either either. The end result was that extreme right-wing parties started to gain popularity across Europe on a platform of anti-establishment (EU), nationalistic and naive economic populism. The UK's conservative party were losing voters to populist parties and nationalist elements within the party itself gained prominence, so Cameron's only chance of keeping all together was to set upon a path of anti-EU rhetoric, and so he promised to offer an in-out referendum, mainly to placate his own party.
Since the whole thing was a bit of a bluff on Cameron's part, you now have him campaigning to stay within the EU, as long as they give Britain special concessions (hence providing Cameron with a political victory).
It's been a funny bit of politics.
Palette Swap
Member
Football Club Nation States, I'd honestly watch an alternate reality where this happened.
I just wouldn't want to live in it.
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
I'll be voting out, but I'm not surprised Gaf is voting stay.
What are you trying to say?
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I'm a dual citizen that has never lived in the UK. For that reason I don't / can't vote in national elections. Would I be able to vote in this?
Winnie the Pimp
Member
I totally agree. While there are many many other aspects to this whole debate, the simple Realpolitik argument of relevancy in a geopolitical sense is enough to vote in. Make no mistake about it, just because we are living our daily lives under the illusion of a "civilized", globalized world economy where everyone is friends with everyone and has diplomatic talks etc. instead of wars, the world actually still functions very much the way it always has. Survival of the fittest. So long term, i see it as a bad thing if the EU gets fragmented, and this would be the first nail in the coffin. Granted, there may be other unions later on if the EU for some reason won't work out, but in the meantime, it's anyone's guess. I'll take what little stability we had before over that any day of the week!
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