Captain Toad
Banned
Um, no. 99% of games come nowhere close to maximizing the hardware it runs on or even attempts to.Spoilers: every videogame gets scaled back during development due to hardware constraints.
Um, no. 99% of games come nowhere close to maximizing the hardware it runs on or even attempts to.Spoilers: every videogame gets scaled back during development due to hardware constraints.
Lame, fake and trying too hard.We've seen these threads before and they always end the same way. One side looks at the evidence, facts and data and draw logical conclusions. The other side puts their fingers in their ears and say "Nah nah nah I can't hear you, this is all concern and random and pinch of salt nah nah nah"
Halo: Infinite
Hellblade 2
- Showed a trailer in 2019 that was meant to be in game. It wasn't
- Game gets delayed a year
- Game launches feature light
- Game has missing features to this day
Starfield
- Trailer is CGI. Microsoft said it was in game
- Trailer turns out to be CGI
- Microsoft said Hellblade was in production, using UE5, which wasn't even out
- Game didn't enter production until 12 months after Microsoft said it was
Redfall
- Microsoft stated it would release on time, even doubling down on the release date
- Shows a lack of footage and instead releases artwork
- Community says it will be delayed. Microsoft say "no"
- Game get delayed
Forza 5
- Little information about the game
- Microsoft said it will release on time
- Microsoft said the game is now delayed
Now? Rumors of fable being delayed with piss-poor excuses of lack of experience - which is objectively false, and the 'fans' and community state the game isn't being delayed?
- Was supposed to launch with RT and 60fps
- Game launches with RT in photo mode and garage
- Only runs at 30fps.
When are people going to seriously ask what the hell is going on with the xbox division? Even the terrible reveal of the xbone, and the xbone itself, doesn't compare to how shitty the division is now and I'm an xbox fan of 20+ years. You can enjoy a football team, but still hate the direction the management is taking it (See Manchester United in the UK for example).
Phil Spencer needs to be replaced. Turning away Marvel, Letting insomniac go, mismanagement of Halo, Hellblade, Forza, Starfield and now Fable, show's he has no clue about the industry. The Xbox Series is his first console launch and he has nothing to show for it. And if anyone thinks it's acceptable to hand-wave away the failures because "publisher of the year", then give your head a wobble, because you're being bamboozled.
There's no shame in wanting better.
They need to bring back Peter Molyneux.
How you put so much effort into a blatantly wrong post? With this amount of effort you could have at least gotten smth accidentally right.We've seen these threads before and they always end the same way. One side looks at the evidence, facts and data and draw logical conclusions. The other side puts their fingers in their ears and say "Nah nah nah I can't hear you, this is all concern and random and pinch of salt nah nah nah"
Halo: Infinite
Hellblade 2
- Showed a trailer in 2019 that was meant to be in game. It wasn't
- Game gets delayed a year
- Game launches feature light
- Game has missing features to this day
Starfield
- Trailer is CGI. Microsoft said it was in game
- Trailer turns out to be CGI
- Microsoft said Hellblade was in production, using UE5, which wasn't even out
- Game didn't enter production until 12 months after Microsoft said it was
Redfall
- Microsoft stated it would release on time, even doubling down on the release date
- Shows a lack of footage and instead releases artwork
- Community says it will be delayed. Microsoft say "no"
- Game get delayed
Forza 5
- Little information about the game
- Microsoft said it will release on time
- Microsoft said the game is now delayed
Now? Rumors of fable being delayed with piss-poor excuses of lack of experience - which is objectively false, and the 'fans' and community state the game isn't being delayed?
- Was supposed to launch with RT and 60fps
- Game launches with RT in photo mode and garage
- Only runs at 30fps.
When are people going to seriously ask what the hell is going on with the xbox division? Even the terrible reveal of the xbone, and the xbone itself, doesn't compare to how shitty the division is now and I'm an xbox fan of 20+ years. You can enjoy a football team, but still hate the direction the management is taking it (See Manchester United in the UK for example).
Phil Spencer needs to be replaced. Turning away Marvel, Letting insomniac go, mismanagement of Halo, Hellblade, Forza, Starfield and now Fable, show's he has no clue about the industry. The Xbox Series is his first console launch and he has nothing to show for it. And if anyone thinks it's acceptable to hand-wave away the failures because "publisher of the year", then give your head a wobble, because you're being bamboozled.
There's no shame in wanting better.
Not to discredit Playground or anything, but were they the best choice for Fable?
Some use Guerrilla as a good example, but Killzone and Horizon are still within the same action genre, although completely different.
But Fable and Forza? That would require a huge change not only in mechanics but also in programing, world and level design, quest design etc. etc.
Some people may laugh at this post, but I agree with it.
It helps to read the thread before posting.
If you had, you’d have read that they pitched it to MS, and part of the pitch involved them hiring experienced devs to bring more of the required expertise in for the project.
There’s also other examples of devs pivoting to different genres. Yes, the Guerilla example exists, but Double Fine had never made a fighting game before Killer Instinct. And I challenge you to point out the common elements between A Plague’s Tale and Microsoft Flight Simulator. Both made by Asobo.
It’s you, in an xbox thread. No surprise about this endorsement
No chance it releases that far out, 2024 or 25 latest. You never know we may be shown something on the 12th and this thread can die.2024? If it's even more delayed than expected. Likely 2027 or 2028.
It’s you, in an xbox thread. No surprise about this endorsement
And that seems to be helping them in what way? If I need a plumber to fix my toilet, I don't call an electrical company to fix it, and hope that they hire a competent plumber to fix it. I call a plumber. MS should have given the Fable project to a studio with some kind of RPG expertise, or at least some kind of story based game. I think Playground was the dumbest choice they could have made tbh. Out of all their studios, that is the LAST one I would have given Fable to. They can hire whoever they want, but you need more than a few new writers to make an RPG. For example, there's been several rumors that they are having engine trouble. That shouldn't be shocking, considering that they've been only working on racers until now.That's probably why they hired a ton of staff who have experience making RPGs including people who worked on previous Fable games.
Playground Studio 2 is basically a new studio.And that seems to be helping them in what way? If I need a plumber to fix my toilet, I don't call an electrical company to fix it, and hope that they hire a competent plumber to fix it. I call a plumber. MS should have given the Fable project to a studio with some kind of RPG expertise, or at least some kind of story based game. I think Playground was the dumbest choice they could have made tbh. Out of all their studios, that is the LAST one I would have given Fable to. They can hire whoever they want, but you need more than a few new writers to make an RPG. For example, there's been several rumors that they are having engine trouble. That shouldn't be shocking, considering that they've been only working on racers until now.
And that seems to be helping them in what way? If I need a plumber to fix my toilet, I don't call an electrical company to fix it, and hope that they hire a competent plumber to fix it. I call a plumber. MS should have given the Fable project to a studio with some kind of RPG expertise, or at least some kind of story based game. I think Playground was the dumbest choice they could have made tbh. Out of all their studios, that is the LAST one I would have given Fable to. They can hire whoever they want, but you need more than a few new writers to make an RPG. For example, there's been several rumors that they are having engine trouble. That shouldn't be shocking, considering that they've been only working on racers until now.
I think you mean Double HELIX and studio bought and killed by AmazonThere’s also other examples of devs pivoting to different genres. Yes, the Guerilla example exists, but Double Fine had never made a fighting game before Killer Instinct. And I challenge you to point out the common elements between A Plague’s Tale and Microsoft Flight Simulator. Both made by Asobo.
And that seems to be helping them in what way? If I need a plumber to fix my toilet, I don't call an electrical company to fix it, and hope that they hire a competent plumber to fix it. I call a plumber. MS should have given the Fable project to a studio with some kind of RPG expertise, or at least some kind of story based game. I think Playground was the dumbest choice they could have made tbh. Out of all their studios, that is the LAST one I would have given Fable to. They can hire whoever they want, but you need more than a few new writers to make an RPG. For example, there's been several rumors that they are having engine trouble. That shouldn't be shocking, considering that they've been only working on racers until now.
I feel like you are going past the point I'm making, which is that if MS wanted to reboot Fable, they had several other better studios to tap for the project. They have legitimate RPG makers in-house now. My point is that Playground being chosen was a dumb move by MS.And before Forza Horizon, Playground Games had not made a single game. How did they make one of the world's most popular racers without already having experience making racers? Simple. They hired people who did. For Fable, Playground create an entirely new, separate studio to make non-racing open world games and hired people with experience doing just that.
As to your plumbing vs electrician analogy, many companies offer both plumbing and electrician services. They hire plumbers for the plumbing side of the business and electricians for the electrician side. Pretty much the point I was making.
The selection to use the same engine is a separate issue.
And that seems to be helping them in what way? If I need a plumber to fix my toilet, I don't call an electrical company to fix it, and hope that they hire a competent plumber to fix it. I call a plumber. MS should have given the Fable project to a studio with some kind of RPG expertise, or at least some kind of story based game. I think Playground was the dumbest choice they could have made tbh. Out of all their studios, that is the LAST one I would have given Fable to. They can hire whoever they want, but you need more than a few new writers to make an RPG. For example, there's been several rumors that they are having engine trouble. That shouldn't be shocking, considering that they've been only working on racers until now.
I feel like you are going past the point I'm making, which is that if MS wanted to reboot Fable, they had several other better studios to tap for the project. They have legitimate RPG makers in-house now. My point is that Playground being chosen was a dumb move by MS.
Tell me one other studio that transitioned from making only racers, or fighters, or sports games, into making a successful story-based RPG.
Hiring some new staff doesn't totally change everything. And the engine transition is just one example of why using Playground was a poor decision. Why even bother trying to use that type of engine for a story based game? It reminds me of how EA wanted every single game running on one engine, and some devs found that to be a nightmare. Same thing seems to be happening with Fable now.
I honestly don't understand the amount faith being placed in Playground, especially when you have 3 or 4 actual RPG studios under the MS banner.
Playground pitched to Microsoft for the project.I feel like you are going past the point I'm making, which is that if MS wanted to reboot Fable, they had several other better studios to tap for the project. They have legitimate RPG makers in-house now. My point is that Playground being chosen was a dumb move by MS.
Tell me one other studio that transitioned from making only racers, or fighters, or sports games, into making a successful story-based RPG.
Hiring some new staff doesn't totally change everything. And the engine transition is just one example of why using Playground was a poor decision. Why even bother trying to use that type of engine for a story based game? It reminds me of how EA wanted every single game running on one engine, and some devs found that to be a nightmare. Same thing seems to be happening with Fable now.
I honestly don't understand the amount faith being placed in Playground, especially when you have 3 or 4 actual RPG studios under the MS banner.
Microsoft didn't have all those studios in 2017 when they started funding Playground's second studio to create open world RPGs. And Playground didn't just "hire some new staff". They created an entirely new studio with entirely new leadership.
Guerrilla Games had never made an open world RPG before Horizon. So they brought in open world RPG vets and were able to make the game. Same difference.
It remains to be seen if Playground will be successful in retooling their engine for Fable. That's really the only controversial decision made here, imo.
Good job xbox ambassador, keep damagecontrolling ....Another day, another 11 page thread based on an Xbox rumor incoming.
It's only a bad idea if the game turns out bad.I feel like you are going past the point I'm making, which is that if MS wanted to reboot Fable, they had several other better studios to tap for the project. They have legitimate RPG makers in-house now. My point is that Playground being chosen was a dumb move by MS.
Tell me one other studio that transitioned from making only racers, or fighters, or sports games, into making a successful story-based RPG.
Hiring some new staff doesn't totally change everything. And the engine transition is just one example of why using Playground was a poor decision. Why even bother trying to use that type of engine for a story based game? It reminds me of how EA wanted every single game running on one engine, and some devs found that to be a nightmare. Same thing seems to be happening with Fable now.
I honestly don't understand the amount faith being placed in Playground, especially when you have 3 or 4 actual RPG studios under the MS banner.
MS must have seen something good in whatever prototype Playground presented.
And they likely had their hiring spree shortly before the pitch, so MS could see that Studio 2 had the talent to make an open world RPG likely also just the trust the studio has generated after releasing nothing but bangers gave them a near blank check.
Good job xbox ambassador, keep damagecontrolling ....
The issue isn't that a company who's only made racing games is having a hard time figuring out how to do a 3rd person fantasy action RPG that's to be expected, the issue is this game was announced WAY too early and that it would seem the scaling down should have been done by now, they announced the game just about 2 years ago. This thing is probably still at least 3 years away from the sound of it.
Every time you see someone call people an "Xbox Ambassador", you can be 100% certain that the person is deep into console war Twitter. By no means are these people to be taken seriously.This was you when Colt was pushing hyper positive rumors about xbox
Now it’s negative rumors, Colt’s show is now a great place for factual reporting
Now he has a clue, and is no longer ‘the king of spreading false information’.
It’s just $299 or $499 brah.
Every time you see someone call people an "Xbox Ambassador", you can be 100% certain that the person is deep into console war Twitter. By no means are these people to be taken seriously.
Generally yes, industry is also full of those cases. Though some companies have really perfected the art of throwing more bodies at problems.That's a given. I just think that sooner or later "bad methodology" will get to you.
This - building effective teams is a lot harder (and a lot more work) than just hiring good talent.Being a new team, however, can also make things worse; since new teams haven't the collective experience of working together in a collaborative way, working out all of the conflicts and issues with the team dynamics to hone their team cohesiveness and productivity.
Being a new team, however, can also make things worse; since new teams haven't the collective experience of working together in a collaborative way, working out all of the conflicts and issues with the team dynamics to hone their team cohesiveness and productivity.
There are innumerable examples of newly formed teams of all-star devs completely collapsing, or producing sub-par products because it takes time and many dev projects under your belt for you to break in a new dev team. Look at MS's own The Initiative and the shit show that seems to have been so far and they haven't even yet shipped a game.
You get pickles? Lucky!I'm officially an "Xbox Ambassador", but I'd prefer it if you call me "Your Excellency".
Not sure your examples apply since a large portion of the second team is comprised of Playground veterans. Plus there’s already a well established studio culture of efficiency and non-toxicity. It’s not for nothing that Playground’s won multiple ‘best place to work in the UK’ awards.
The comparison to The Initiative isn’t apt at all
This iteration of Fable IP started 5 years before Bethesda deal happened. Obsidian was a bit closer - but still, years after.
You could argue that they should take it away from Playground after - but that'd likely set internet on fire if it happened.
Assuming the rumours in the OP are true, frankly, I'd rather MS did take Fable away from Playground and give it to Obsidian. I'd rather take a full-fat ambitious Fable from a studio with the chops to aim high and nail it, than a scaled-down in scope and ambition first attempt by the B-team of a racing game dev.
Let Playground work on a new IP. Something that's their own baby and brainchild, but also something that isn't going to see them reach too far beyond their capability as a studio.
I rather would have seen Nintendo make Metroid Prime , back in the 2000s rather than Retro Studios .. but look how that turned out. Give Playground a little slack and faith.Assuming the rumours in the OP are true, frankly, I'd rather MS did take Fable away from Playground and give it to Obsidian. I'd rather take a full-fat ambitious Fable from a studio with the chops to aim high and nail it, than a scaled-down in scope and ambition first attempt by the B-team of a racing game dev.
Let Playground work on a new IP. Something that's their own baby and brainchild, but also something that isn't going to see them reach too far beyond their capability as a studio.
This just seems like excessive, undue concern.
You’d rather Microsoft cancel the Fable reboot and give it to Obsidian to make after Avowed and The Outer Worlds? How’s that make sense?
Also rather illogical to call this the ‘B team’. Multiple studios have put together multiple dev teams under a single roof. Insomniac makes multiple games with that approach. Sony Santa Monica’s taken that approach to work on their new IP alongside Ragnarok. Naughty Dog is rumored to be doing same. And in none of these cases has a team comprised of industry veterans behind some of the best AAA games in the past decade been derisively referred to as a ‘B team’
‘Beyond their capability’ is also a strange term, since the Fable team has hired extensively to bring additional capability in-house. Pitching the team as still a bunch of racing devs is strange as hell.
I rather would have seen Nintendo make Metroid Prime , back in the 2000s rather than Retro Studios .. but look how that turned out. Give Playground a little slack and faith.
I hope they scale it down. I want a good game, not an unoptimized nightmare produced by a team in over their heads.
I'd rather Obsidian make a new Fable game first. The Outer Worlds wasn't all that, and nobody knows anything about Avowed enough to be excited for it anyway.
An new Obsidian-developed Fable would be more exciting for me.
And it makes sense because Obsidian has made RPGs before, meanwhile, Playground hasn't and all the hiring in the world won't magically make Playground ready to ship a top tier RPG game.
I meant B team as in it's their second team. Not that it's inherently inferior. That said, it's not equal to the Forza Horizon team either, because it's a new team that has never made a game together before (and especially not a non-racing game). So the term would be factually accurate in both senses.
No, it's not. Read the OP carefully again. Playground has had to reduce the scope and ambition of their Fable game. They obviously bit off more than they can chew... ergo, the game as originally envisioned was beyond their capability.
You and many others in this thread seem to have this oversimplified, over-idealised view of games development, that just because a team has made great games in the past, they can make any new game in any new genre and knock it out of the park... that's just not accurate for most development teams... not even close to reality.
Phil Spencer needs to be replaced. Turning away Marvel, Letting insomniac go, mismanagement of Halo, Hellblade, Forza, Starfield and now Fable, show's he has no clue about the industry. The Xbox Series is his first console launch and he has nothing to show for it. And if anyone thinks it's acceptable to hand-wave away the failures because "publisher of the year", then give your head a wobble, because you're being bamboozled.
There's no shame in wanting better.
Well, pivoting to Obsidian for Fable after setting up a talented team at Playground and after 3 years of development would make no sense and would be a shocking act of mismanagement from Phil.
Good thing some common sense prevails on that score.
Imagine saying in one breath that Obsidian makes top drawer RPGs, then in the other saying you’d be happy for Avowed - an RPG - to be canned or put on ice to make Fable.
And yet this thread is filled with examples of studios pivoting to genres different from what they’ve made before.
Asobo’s first ever flight simulator game - 90% MC
Guerilla’s pivot from FPS games into Horizon series? - multiple GOTY awards in 2017
Double Helix went from making Army Men games to Killer Instinct (2013), a very solid fighting game.
Naughty Dog went from the likes of Jak and Crash to Uncharted.
So yeah, history disagrees with you.
A large portion of the team has worked together for years on Forza Horizon. And studio culture will remain the same. Pitching this as a inferior team is laughable.
It’s beyond hilarious that an unsubstantiated rumor from a YouTuber is what you’ve taken as a ‘fact’ and are confidently building a case around these claims.
“I know for sure They’ve had to reduce the scope and bit off more than they can chew because someone on Colt Eastwood’s YouTube said so”
Actually it does seem like you’re the one with an oversimplified view of game development, with your unfounded skepticism about the ability of highly experienced game devs to pivot, and your dogmatic belief that capability and experience cannot be brought in-house.
Ironically, you were one of the folks opposed to Xbox acquisitions in the past and you’ve stated you preferred them to build new teams. Yet here you are, downplaying a new team and their future output.
No need to be so concerned
Continue living in your idealized la la land and furiously waging war against anyone that doesn't share your blind optimism.
All your counterpoints I have addressed in this thread in earlier discussion with other users. You can review and educate yourself, or you can choose not to and lean hard into your blind faith and hopes and dreams. I don't give a shit what you do. Unlike you, I'm not so insecure that I will not suffer others not sharing my opinion on a subject.
I've detailed why I don't think blind faith in Playground's second team for this project is warranted. The OP itself stands as a justification to my reservations.
There are no rumours or reports of development on Fable going swimmingly well and talk about it being the best WRPG ever. Only rumours in the fucking OP of this very thread, claiming they're having to scale down the project due to their lack of experience. So the history and examples of other more talented devs succeeding are frankly irrelevant to Playground's current predicament.
The onus is on Playground to deliver, and the rumours surrounding their progress thus far aren't at all positive. If in the face of that you wanna jam your fingers in your ears and sing Kumbaya, all the best. I will maintain my healthy scepticism that this project will eventually become the milestone return to form that the Fable franchise desperately needs to become relevant again.
To summarize your long, bilious post:
“Despite historical precedence, I don’t believe Fable will turn out well because a random YouTuber dropped a rumor”
All the best with your skepticism (which just happens to be in line with a long history of antipathy towards anything Xbox).
No point engaging further. Cheers
Instead we read you complains before we even know anythingNo. It's called an opinion. Feel free to disagree.
I'd rather Obsidian make a new Fable game first. The Outer Worlds wasn't all that, and nobody knows anything about Avowed enough to be excited for it anyway.
An new Obsidian-developed Fable would be more exciting for me.
And it makes sense because Obsidian has made RPGs before, meanwhile, Playground hasn't and all the hiring in the world won't magically make Playground ready to ship a top tier RPG game.
Calm down.
I meant B team as in it's their second team. Not that it's inherently inferior. That said, it's not equal to the Forza Horizon team either, because it's a new team that has never made a game together before (and especially not a non-racing game). So the term would be factually accurate in both senses.
No, it's not. Read the OP carefully again. Playground has had to reduce the scope and ambition of their Fable game. They obviously bit off more than they can chew... ergo, the game as originally envisioned was beyond their capability.
You and many others in this thread seem to have this oversimplified, over-idealised view of games development, that just because a team has made great games in the past, they can make any new game in any new genre and knock it out of the park... that's just not accurate for most development teams... not even close to reality.
Er... no. I don't have to.
Instead we read you complains before we even know anything
Exactly.Xbox really need to nail Fable, Avowed and Perfect Dark. There can be no excuses. They all need to be stellar games.
Based on nothing .. Retro studios was named a poor fit before Metroid Prime released for example … all the media was also basically against them .. just saying .What complaints? I didn't utter a single complaint.
I've only stated pretty plainly why I think Playground making a Fable game is a poor fit.
At least follow the actual discussion before wading in and making ignorant accusations... Geez
Until we see some footage and information for the game I'd say its you making ignorant and uninformed comments on why PG is a poor fit.....geez.What complaints? I didn't utter a single complaint.
I've only stated pretty plainly why I think Playground making a Fable game is a poor fit.
At least follow the actual discussion before wading in and making ignorant accusations... Geez
All his examples are far from spot on, I'd say he makes a few valid points but is largely over exaggerating.While all your examples are spot on, Spencer is not responsible for the games themselves, their development, schedlues, studios etc., if anything, it's Matt Booty's job, while Spencer turned around the sinking XB1 ship like no one could even imagined, brought XB brand at the right track and so far is doing a great job at expanding the brand beyond just consoles. It's like you were blaming Jim Ryan for HFW performance mode image quality issues, or GT7 car prices,vwhile he has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Well spoken, Sony shill.Good job xbox ambassador, keep damagecontrolling ....
The fact she joined recently doesn't tell you shit about the games current state. This is exactly the would be armchair developer shit i was just talking about.Yes, she's a senior producer on the project, but if you check her Twitter bio you'll see she joined the project this Feb.
That should tell you all you need to know. Game is very likely 2+ years out and they'll only have a design and probably a vertical slice/proof of concept build done at the moment. So even though plans are firm, there's still plenty of latitude for change over the remaining time.