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[SoraanTribal]

Vanille is fine, it's just, the game cut so much of their characterization out of gameplay and stuck it in the logs.

I mean heck, Vanille is

Spoiler

a happy, playful fisherman who was ordered to commit genocide. She broke under the pressure and horror of what she was asked to do, and ran. She's still running, and everyone and their brother is getting dragged in as a result. She spends the game one step away from suicidal depression, hiding it under a mask of cheerfulness.

People hate on Vanille constantly, but I liked her a lot for the reasons you mentioned in the spoiler tags. Her story was very interesting to me, and she was basically the main character in XIII. Hell, the story of XIII was very much about Fang and Vanille and their past. Everyone else took a backseat, even Lightning.

 

[HeelPower]

People hate on Vanille constantly, but I liked her a lot for the reasons you mentioned in the spoiler tags. Her story was very interesting to me, and she was basically the main character in XIII. Hell, the story of XIII was very much about Fang and Vanille and their past. Everyone else took a backseat, even Lightning.

Vanille's great.She had memorable moments with hope early in the game and with Sazh and Fang later on.

People hated her mostly because in the english version her voice got excessively squeaky and moany on occasion.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I honestly think there's a good amount of in game dialogue that fuels the Chie and Yukiko relationship, they do have a bit of a need for each other if I'm not mistaken.

It's kind of down to whether or not Chie's BDSM shadow boss form was actually intended to carry the sexual connotations. It's more likely that it was just meant to be a cartoonish representation of Chie's desire for control in their friendship.

There are basically three options:

1. They're meant to have feelings for each other. Unlikely, because Yukiko's shadow shows she's repressing a quest for pipe.

2. Chie has unrequited feelings for Yukiko. Unlikely, because despite a few lines you can read between about how important their friendship is, it never explicitly comes up aside from Chie's weird boss form.

3. There's no answer and all of Persona 4's attempts to deal with homosexuality are surface at best. I think this is by far the most likely answer, given how things with the rest of the cast go.

Final Fantasy XIII is kind of in the same spot, I feel. Fang and Vanille aren't ever said or shown to be in any sort of relationship and never will be, because even the deepest subtext is pretty surface level.

 

[Gbraga]

Hey, more Vanille fans! We're definitely not the majority.

Vanille, Fang and Sazh are by far the best characters in the game, imo.

 

[Mesoian]

It's kind of down to whether or not Chie's BDSM shadow boss form was actually intended to carry the sexual connotations. It's more likely that it was just meant to be a cartoonish representation of Chie's desire for control in their friendship.

There are basically three options:

1. They're meant to have feelings for each other. Unlikely, because Yukiko's shadow shows she's repressing a quest for pipe.

2. Chie has unrequited feelings for Yukiko. Unlikely, because despite a few lines you can read between about how important their friendship is, it never explicitly comes up aside from Chie's weird boss form.

3. There's no answer and all of Persona 4's attempts to deal with homosexuality are surface at best. I think this is by far the most likely answer, given how things with the rest of the cast go.

Final Fantasy XIII is kind of in the same spot, I feel. Fang and Vanille aren't ever said or shown to be in any sort of relationship and never will be, because even the deepest subtext is pretty surface level.

That's the weakest thing about P4. The moment they start going into deep dives about any character's personalities, they backpedal super hard so they continue to fit traditional anime stereotypes. Kanji and Naoto's lack of character development beyond their respective dungeons, which really bring up more questions than answers, is a real bummer.

Vanille is fine, it's just, the game cut so much of their characterization out of gameplay and stuck it in the logs.

I mean heck, Vanille is

Spoiler

a happy, playful fisherman who was ordered to commit genocide. She broke under the pressure and horror of what she was asked to do, and ran. She's still running, and everyone and their brother is getting dragged in as a result. She spends the game one step away from suicidal depression, hiding it under a mask of cheerfulness.

And the game does almost nothing with that.

Absolutely infuriating, it's why FF13 is a terrible game in my eyes. Here's a bunch of characters with some real issues and flaws, let's not talk about them, let's just shoehorn them into marketable archetypes because it will make selling this thing easier.

Garbage tier storytelling.

 

[Zomba13]

People hate on Vanille constantly, but I liked her a lot for the reasons you mentioned in the spoiler tags. Her story was very interesting to me, and she was basically the main character in XIII. Hell, the story of XIII was very much about Fang and Vanille and their past. Everyone else took a backseat, even Lightning.

I found Vanille super annoying until spoiler. Then I understood her and why she is like that and it made her a better, more interesting character. Fang was always cool and is probably the best character in the game. It's weird how one of the more annoying characters actually did get development and fleshing out while the more "main" (marketed?) characters were pretty boring and one dimensional. And then there is Fang who was just cool.

 

[JadedWriter]

It's kind of down to whether or not Chie's BDSM shadow boss form was actually intended to carry the sexual connotations. It's more likely that it was just meant to be a cartoonish representation of Chie's desire for control in their friendship.

There are basically three options:

1. They're meant to have feelings for each other. Unlikely, because Yukiko's shadow shows she's repressing a quest for pipe.

2. Chie has unrequited feelings for Yukiko. Unlikely, because despite a few lines you can read between about how important their friendship is, it never explicitly comes up aside from Chie's weird boss form.

3. There's no answer and all of Persona 4's attempts to deal with homosexuality are surface at best. I think this is by far the most likely answer, given how things with the rest of the cast go.

Final Fantasy XIII is kind of in the same spot, I feel. Fang and Vanille aren't ever said or shown to be in any sort of relationship and never will be, because even the deepest subtext is pretty surface level.

Good comments, but didn't shadow Yukiko also declare that Chie was her prince? Even though Yukiko was chasing the pipe I'm going to assume Chie would be her exception.

 

[Gbraga]

I found Vanille super annoying until spoiler. Then I understood her and why she is like that and it made her a better, more interesting character. Fang was always cool and is probably the best character in the game. It's weird how one of the more annoying characters actually did get development and fleshing out while the more "main" (marketed?) characters were pretty boring and one dimensional. And then there is Fang who was just cool.

Yeah, Vanille and Sazh are among my favorites for their character development, but Fang is just cool, she looks cool and acts cool, but so cool that it's enough to be among my favorite characters in the game. She's great :')

 

[JadedWriter]

Yeah, Vanille and Sazh are among my favorites for their character development, but Fang is just cool, she looks cool and acts cool, but so cool that it's enough to be among my favorite characters in the game. She's great :')

She honestly acted more calm and rational than Lightning did, honestly should've been her game cause Lightning just felt like a stoic dude cosplaying as a woman to me.

 

[Steel]

Sephiroth was the poster child for yaoi in the 90s. His very feminine appearance set off a red flag.

Additionally, Sephiroth spends a great deal of the game struggling with his "otherness," which is one of the most common troupes of gay characters in fiction.

It'd be a lot easier to say sephiroth has a mother complex than to make this many jumps in logic. I mean, the guy is barely even characterized in FF 7 proper beyond his love for his mother and his overall apathy at cloud's existence for the majority of the game.

 

[HeelPower]

Lightning just felt like a stoic dude cosplaying as a woman to me.

Its been over five years since the game released and people say things like this.

I dont understand how people can over look lightnings substantial interactions with fang hope and snow then simply brush her off as "stoic piece of glass".

I guess people just want to perpetuate whats been trotted out on GAF without observing the actual events in the game.

 

[R_thanatos]

No doubts in my mind that fang and vanille are a pair...

Spoiler

Friends don't choose to be sealed together holding hands for eternity.

 

[Mesoian]

Sephiroth was the poster child for yaoi in the 90s. His very feminine appearance set off a red flag.

Additionally, Sephiroth spends a great deal of the game struggling with his "otherness," which is one of the most common troupes of gay characters in fiction.

I would be hesitant to make any sort of meaningful parallels between dealing with homosexuality and Sephiroth's general rage smolder in a game that, at almost every pass, turns homosexuality into a running gag.

People forget that FF7 spends a fair amount of time telling the player that gay people and situations are creepy.

Its been over five years since the game released and people say things like this.

I dont understand how people can over look lightnings substantial interactions with fang hope and snow then simply brush her off as "stoic piece of glass".

I guess people just want to perpetuate whats been trotted out on GAF without observing the actual events in the game.

Because she is exactly like that, a stoic piece of glass, for the last half the game. All of her character development is frontloaded, super aggressive, and then abandoned because it's not important to the plot and god forbid the personalities of the protagonists actually clash when the game's plot is on the line.

 

[JadedWriter]

Its been over five years since the game released and people say things like this.

I dont understand how people can over look lightnings substantial interactions with fang hope and snow then simply brush her off as "stoic piece of glass".

I guess people just want to perpetuate whats been trotted out on GAF without observing the actual events in the game.

It's been like 5 years since I've played the game so I'm deeply sorry if I don't really remember everything. Also didn't help that Lightning wasn't my favorite character in the game or favorite FF female. Granted from what I remember she did seem pretty motherly to Hope and I think she eventually stopped punching Snow. And to put it in perspective I never got past the hunt quest portion of the game in Pulse I just could not grind enough and enjoy it in the process to get passed that point.

 

[Ralemont]

I took that as the intended subtext to their relationship playing through the trilogy.

 

[dorkkaos]

Yeah I definitely felt like they were supposed to be a couple. Wish it was more explicit. Fang is one of my favorite ffxiii characters

 

[Red Mage]

People hate on Vanille constantly, but I liked her a lot for the reasons you mentioned in the spoiler tags. Her story was very interesting to me, and she was basically the main character in XIII. Hell, the story of XIII was very much about Fang and Vanille and their past. Everyone else took a backseat, even Lightning.

Actually, I think people hated most of the cast because of how poorly the story is communicated, and the general feeling that they're spinning their wheels for 90% of the game.

 

[z1ggy]

Vanille is fine, it's just, the game cut so much of their characterization out of gameplay and stuck it in the logs.

I mean heck, Vanille is

Spoiler

a happy, playful fisherman who was ordered to commit genocide. She broke under the pressure and horror of what she was asked to do, and ran. She's still running, and everyone and their brother is getting dragged in as a result. She spends the game one step away from suicidal depression, hiding it under a mask of cheerfulness.

I just dislike her VA. Fang is the best character in the FF XIII universe.

 

[wmlk]

It's hard to believe that there is something deeper there when looking at the writing for the game as a whole.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

I just dislike her VA. Fang is the best character in the FF XIII universe.

Her actress is cool, I blame the voice director. If you listen to her interviews, her normal voice would have been pretty much perfect, and better matched fangs. But sadly, they told her to act higher pitched and "japanesey" and that killed a lot of its appeal.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsSY4svjABA This is a brief interview with her voice actress.

 

[Zomba13]

She honestly acted more calm and rational than Lightning did, honestly should've been her game cause Lightning just felt like a stoic dude cosplaying as a woman to me.

If Fang was the main character and the one getting shoved into every cross over ever I'd be on board. Lightning felt like someone trying to make a female version of what everyone thinks cloud is.

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

It's hard to believe that there is something deeper there when looking at the writing for the game as a whole.

It's kind of hard to believe there was any thought put into anything when looking at the writing for XIII.

Sure though, why not? Evidence seemed to have been there when I played it. Better relationship than other FF romances I can think of.

 

[Talents]

The only character I'd ever believe to be gay in Final Fantasy would probably be Kuja.

 

[JadedWriter]

If Fang was the main character and the one getting shoved into every cross over ever I'd be on board. Lightning felt like someone trying to make a female version of what everyone thinks cloud is.

Is Lightning, Vanille and Fang a viable party? I ran with Lightning, Hope and I think Snow because of some guide I was reading. But yeah Fang would've definitely been preferable...cooler weapon too, even if it was just a staff.

The only character I'd ever believe to be gay in Final Fantasy would probably be Kuja.

I think that's mainly because they changed Kuja's gender at the last minute without overhauling his design.

 

[vainglorious]

I think that's mainly because they changed Kuja's gender at the last minute without overhauling his design.

They did?! Oh wow I had no idea. Any insight as to why?

 

[Wazzy]

It's interesting hearing how many people couldn't see anything between Chie and Yukiko. Pretty much my whole group of friends when they played P4G thought there was romantic implications between the two constantly.

Is Lightning, Vanille and Fang a viable party? I ran with Lightning, Hope and I think Snow because of some guide I was reading. But yeah Fang would've definitely been preferable...cooler weapon too, even if it was just a staff.

I think that's mainly because they changed Kuja's gender at the last minute without overhauling his design.

I beat the game with those three so you definitely can run that party. I actually found they worked the best.

Having Sazh for buff's does help a lot too, though.

 

[Femmeworth]

It's kind of down to whether or not Chie's BDSM shadow boss form was actually intended to carry the sexual connotations. It's more likely that it was just meant to be a cartoonish representation of Chie's desire for control in their friendship.

There are basically three options:

1. They're meant to have feelings for each other. Unlikely, because Yukiko's shadow shows she's repressing a quest for pipe.

2. Chie has unrequited feelings for Yukiko. Unlikely, because despite a few lines you can read between about how important their friendship is, it never explicitly comes up aside from Chie's weird boss form.

3. There's no answer and all of Persona 4's attempts to deal with homosexuality are surface at best. I think this is by far the most likely answer, given how things with the rest of the cast go.

Final Fantasy XIII is kind of in the same spot, I feel. Fang and Vanille aren't ever said or shown to be in any sort of relationship and never will be, because even the deepest subtext is pretty surface level.

 

[Caronte]

Is Lightning, Vanille and Fang a viable party? I ran with Lightning, Hope and I think Snow because of some guide I was reading. But yeah Fang would've definitely been preferable...cooler weapon too, even if it was just a staff.

Fang is like Snow, Vanille is like Hope and Lightning is like Sazh. They are not exactly the same but they have the same role in combat. You can pick between each 2 characters.

The only problem with using that party is that you won't have buffs at first since you're not using Hope or Sazh, but you have debuffs to compensate.

 

[Gaz_RB]

I thought they were related

 

[Stormblessed]

I suspect it was unintentional initially (perhaps a side-effect of the changes to Fang) and they decided to lean into it in subsequent games when they found that's how people read that relationship. The Serah and Snow pairing shows what Toriyama and co aren't good at writing romance on purpose.

 

[zeopower6]

No, Fang and Vanille is not canon.

However, Fang was originally a male character, so I suppose there was a romance intended at some point. When she was changed to a female character, the romantic elements were probably retained, but the writers didn't want to confirm a lesbian relationship.

The result is content that just feels like yuri baiting.

You know, I wonder if Fang receiving some of Lightning's early personality traits made it so that Lightning was going to be the "emotionless" one which has resulted in all the complaints about her being a cold bitch. Lightning was supposed to be a silvery haired flirt at first but then Hope got the hair and Fang got the flirtatious nature. I think people would have liked her more had they kept that to Lightning.

And for those who say they didn't feel the couple-y feelings in XIII, they make things a little more 'obvious' in Lightning Returns.

 

[bishopcruz]

Of course not. Why is it that people have to make clearly straight characters gay? I mean we never see them kiss, or say I love you, or wake up next to each other so clearly they all want pipe laid. I mean, what are you people thinking? Having to ruin such a beautiful thing as friendship. I swear.

Next people are going to tell me that Asami and Korra were gay when they clearly were in love with Mako.

Totally, totally straight as an arrow.

 

[Trojita]

Korra's thing was terribly tacked on to satisfy a loud portion of their fanbase.

At times I'm wondering if these are either lgbt allies that are asking for these relationships or guy/girls with a lesbian fetish.

 

[SeanTSC]

Did Sephiroth show interest in anyone other than Jenova? Lolwut

Seriously. Sephiroth has the most blatant Oedipus Complex of any RPG character ever.

 

[PK Gaming]

The only character I'd ever believe to be gay in Final Fantasy would probably be Kuja.

Kuja is super camp, but I'd never call him gay

He's a pretty warped individual, actually

 

[FlyingSaucer]

The only character I'd ever believe to be gay in Final Fantasy would probably be Kuja.

Visual-kei fanbait more than anything else, really.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Glad to see all this Fang love. She is damn cool. And, lest we forget:

http://youtu.be/YdgF63xKTe0

 

[Icyflamez96]

I found Fang to be the most static and uninteresting character in the game, but I can see why people like her in comparison to the rest of the cast since she doesn't really have a stand out obnoxious quality like many of the other characters do. The only moment I remember her having was when she broke down in the ark. Correct me if i'm wrong but I don't even remember much foreshadowing to the event. It just kinda happened out of nowhere.

 

[JadedWriter]

It's interesting hearing how many people couldn't see anything between Chie and Yukiko. Pretty much my whole group of friends when they played P4G thought there was romantic implications between the two constantly.


I beat the game with those three so you definitely can run that party. I actually found they worked the best.

Having Sazh for buff's does help a lot too, though.

Chie and Yukiko are so blatant at times i swear. Thanks for the suggestion. I should start it up again and shoot for that party and give it that ffx2 flair.

 

[charlequin]

Why is it anytime two females are close and engage in hugging or hand holding in a video game it means they're lesbians?

Reading homosexual implication into storytelling is a long, distinguished tradition, and it comes out of differing standards for depicting straight vs. gay relationships. In something like a JRPG, you can have a straight relationship with clear kissing, explicit statements of emotional relationship, and even implied sex (see any Persona romantic S-Link, or the main romances in FF7/8/10) but there's no equivalent for gay relationships. If a person wants to assume that these worlds work something like the real one and that same-sex attraction and relationships are a thing, you can't find them in the unambiguous explicit canon, so you have to find implicit options instead. Of course, this is made easier by the fact that there are often relationships that, for whatever reason, are presented with everything necessary to be read as romantic except that layer of explicit acknowledgement.

It's like Persona 4's Chie and Yukiko.

I ship those two the same way I ship Rita and Estelle from Vesperia.

To my mind Fang and Vanille are more of a sure thing than Estelle and Rita*, and way more of a thing than Chie and Yukiko.

As my wife pointed out to me, all three would also be at pretty different relationship stages: whether or not there's any tension in Chie/Yukiko they pretty clearly haven't made out, and Estelle and Rita (like every Tales romance) are presented like two people who are just starting to date, while Fang and Vanille are, like, a long term relationship.


*Well, you can also read it as a one-sided unrequited thing, in which case... poor Rita.

 

[cafemomo]

Is Lightning, Vanille and Fang a viable party? I

yeee

Lightning - RAV/COM
Vanille - RAV/MED/SAB
Fang - COM/SYN

 

[JadedWriter]

yeee

Lightning - RAV/COM
Vanille - RAV/MED/SAB
Fang - COM/SYN

I like the way this sounds, should do it some time!!!

To my mind Fang and Vanille are more of a sure thing than Estelle and Rita*, and way more of a thing than Chie and Yukiko.

As my wife pointed out to me, all three would also be at pretty different relationship stages: whether or not there's any tension in Chie/Yukiko they pretty clearly haven't made out, and Estelle and Rita (like every Tales romance) are presented like two people who are just starting to date, while Fang and Vanille are, like, a long term relationship.


*Well, you can also read it as a one-sided unrequited thing, in which case... poor Rita.

So pretty much Rita and Estelle are a crush, one sided at that, Chie and Yukiko are just flirtatious, but aren't actually at a stage where they could be doing something, but could if one of them would get the hint and Fang and Vanille are legit life mates if I'm understanding it right?

 

[PK Gaming]

Reading homosexual implication into storytelling is a long, distinguished tradition, and it comes out of differing standards for depicting straight vs. gay relationships. In something like a JRPG, you can have a straight relationship with clear kissing, explicit statements of emotional relationship, and even implied sex (see any Persona romantic S-Link, or the main romances in FF7/8/10) but there's no equivalent for gay relationships. If a person wants to assume that these worlds work something like the real one and that same-sex attraction and relationships are a thing, you can't find them in the unambiguous explicit canon, so you have to find implicit options instead. Of course, this is made easier by the fact that there are often relationships that, for whatever reason, are presented with everything necessary to be read as romantic except that layer of explicit acknowledgement.

You definitely hit the nail on the head. It's a shame that perceived homosexual pairings go through so much scrutiny, because if the relationship was heterosexual (ie: Fang x Vanille as originally intended) it wouldn't even be up for discussion. But at the same time, i'm sympathetic to the idea of a strong platonic bond between same sex couples so it's definitely a tricky subject.

I like the way this sounds, should do it some time!!!

So pretty much Rita and Estelle are a crush, one sided at that, Chie and Yukiko are just flirtatious, but aren't actually at a stage where they could be doing something, but could if one of them would get the hint and Fang and Vanille are legit life mates if I'm understanding it right?

I think it's a bit of a stretch to classify Yukiko and Chie's relationship as flirtatious. They've definitely got a deep, deep, (deep) friendship, but I never really got any romantic vibes from their relationship. The prince/princess thing was definitely reminiscent of Utena, but it was ultimately fakeout for their co-dependence.

 

[charlequin]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to classify Yukiko and Chie's relationship as flirtatious. They've definitely got a deep, deep, (deep) friendship, but I never really got any romantic vibes from their relationship.

They're pretty easy to read as the kind of friends who DO have, like, a weird sexual tension edge that doesn't turn into anything but is still occasionally awkward.

 

[Aurongel]

Fang cannot be gay because my waifus are straight.

Truth.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Seriously. Sephiroth has the most blatant Oedipus Complex of any RPG character ever.

He's tied with Fei from Xenogears.

 

[Bladenic]

Is Lightning, Vanille and Fang a viable party? I ran with Lightning, Hope and I think Snow because of some guide I was reading. But yeah Fang would've definitely been preferable...cooler weapon too, even if it was just a staff.

I think that's mainly because they changed Kuja's gender at the last minute without overhauling his design.

Best party for story is probably Light/Hope/Fang, but fully maxed characters for post game, definitely the three gals.

Also I definitely thought they were a couple. They lived together in their hometown. Also a better couple than Snow/Serah.

As for Chie/Yukiko, I dunno, I thought most of the P4 characters were gay as hell minus Rise wanting MC's dick. Hell, Kanji was less gay than Yosuke.

 

[Gbraga]

Fang cannot be gay because my waifus are straight.

Truth.

Just assume she's bi and she can both still be your waifu and have a nice partner in-game, win-win.

Though I don't see why a waifu needs to be interested in you to be your waifu. I'm sure as hell not letting go of Gladio just because he's straight

Best party for story is probably Light/Hope/Fang, but fully maxed characters for post game, definitely the three gals.

Really? I always assumed Light or Fang / Vanille / Sazh would be the best party, is Fang a better SYN than Sazh and Hope when fully maxed out?

 

[Golnei]

Just assume she's bi and she can both still be your waifu and have a nice partner in-game, win-win.

The very idea of such high-quality waifu material being attracted to someone other than me is disgusting. Fang and Vanille's little schoolgirl lesbian act is cute, but only as preparation for a real relationship, not in place of one.

 

[JadedWriter]

Best party for story is probably Light/Hope/Fang, but fully maxed characters for post game, definitely the three gals.

Also I definitely thought they were a couple. They lived together in their hometown. Also a better couple than Snow/Serah.

As for Chie/Yukiko, I dunno, I thought most of the P4 characters were gay as hell minus Rise wanting MC's dick. Hell, Kanji was less gay than Yosuke.

Didn't Yosuke even accidentally hit on Kanji or was that just Kanji being hyper insecure of his own sexuality? How is Naoto gay? Regarding Fang and Vanille I immediately got those vibes when Fang lifted up Vanille's skirt in front of everybody to check her mark. Regarding the XIII party thing that sounds like it makes sense since Hope is like a default class for something that's really important...buffing I'm going to assume, I oddly just seem like running parties with as many women as possible these days. Except in P3 Portable. It's Female Main, Mitsuru, Ken and Koromaru, though I love my P4G party of Yu, Naoto, Chie and Yukiko shit was crazy in game with how I could wipe out the entire enemy party in like 3 turns half the time.

The very idea of such high-quality waifu material being attracted to someone other than me is disgusting. Fang and Vanille's little schoolgirl lesbian act is cute, but only as preparation for a real relationship, not in place of one.

I don't think any guy can get between those two, Fang will probably just straight up Galactic Punt you.

They're pretty easy to read as the kind of friends who DO have, like, a weird sexual tension edge that doesn't turn into anything but is still occasionally awkward.

I think if those two ever shared either an apartment or college dorm for a long enough amount of time...something would happen.