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[Zog]

I have no idea who “him” is referring to or how you got any of this from anything I said.

Also, someone saying 'women have it worse' is indeed making a comparison.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Why should universities be adjudicating on criminal matters?

Because it reflects badly on the university and just like when an employee reflects badly on a company and the company fires them a University has the right to do the same if a student gets involved with something that reflects badly on the University they attend. Especially when the situation potentially affects the safety of the rest of the student body. A University should not be expected to allow a potential rapist to walk around on campus if they have been presented with evidence and testimony from a victim.


You are looking at this from the perspective of a legal court,, but thats not what this is. They have to consider all the options and outcomes and as I said earlier if a University were to get it wrong and allow a guilty student to stay and they attack ANOTHER student? It would be Michigan State 2.0 and the fallout would be devastating to the university both financially and in form of public trust. Nobody is gonna send their kid to a school who let a rapist walk free because they doubted the victim.


So Universities are forced to make a judgement call and possibly expel the student. They might get it wrong yes, but the statistics say they will be right the vast majority of the time and they will be keeping their students safe from a predator and thats what is most important.

Guilty until proven innocent then.

In a court of law? No. It should always be innocent until proven guilty. No one should be presumed guilty in a court of law before they can present a case to defend themselves.


In the court of public opinion? Absolutely. Especially when it comes to sex crimes and especially now in the current environment of the #MeToo movement. The benefit of the doubt goes to the victim in these cases and Companies/Universities know that standing up for the accused is percieved as standing against the victim and act accordingly. No one wants to be perceived as siding against a rape victim.


I'm not saying its the best way for the situation to play out. In a perfect world there would be a better way to handle sexual assault claims where the accuser is believed and the accused is innocent until proven otherwise, but this isn't a perfect world.

 

[Zog]

they will be keeping their students safe from a predator and thats what is most important.

This is a quote from Benjamin Franklin. I want your opinion of this quote.

That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved.

It seems to me that you would rather 100 innocent persons be expelled to make others feel safe.

 

[Ke0]

I don’t. In fact, I think the opposite is more likely given what Obama did with Title IX laws.

Ah yes Obama, of course...

So what are you saying? Are you saying that false accusations are ok as long as there are more actual rapes?

Not at all, but acting like men are the real victims on US campuses just delusional.

 

[Nobody_Important]

This is a quote from Benjamin Franklin. I want your opinion of this quote.
That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved.

Once again you are equating this entire situation with a court of law. Its not a court of law. A university is not a legal body that can hand down sentences. What they can do however is decide who they let attend their campus and who they let around their students. If a University has reasonable suspicion or evidence that a student is a danger to themselves or other students then they have a duty to the rest of the student body to remove that person from the campus in the interest of safety. If the person turns out to be innocent of whatever the University mistakenly expelled them for then that is unfortunate and the university should make amends how it can, but a school can never be too cautious when it comes to the safety of their staff and students in a situation like that.



They are not left with much choice in the current environment. Especially if the rest of the student body and/or the media catch wind of the situation.

 

[Zog]

Not at all, but acting like men are the real victims on US campuses just delusional.

Males are treated as guilty until proven innocent. I would call that hostile towards males which is what I said in the first place.

 

[Zog]

Once again you are equating this entire situation with a court of law. Its not a court of law. A university is not a legal body that can hand down sentences. What they can do however is decide who they let attend their campus and who they let around their students. If a University has reasonable suspicion or evidence that a student is a danger to themselves or other students then they have a duty to the rest of the student body to remove that person from the campus in the interest of safety. If the person turns out to be innocent of whatever the University mistakenly expelled them for then that is unfortunate and the university should make amends how it can, but a school can never be too cautious when it comes to the safety of their staff and students in a situation like that.



They are not left with much choice in the current environment. Especially if the rest of the student body and/or the media catch wind of the situation.

Sexual assault is a criminal matter. Colleges shouldn't be expelling people before an official investigation and someone is charged. As it is, it's no wonder males don't want to go to college, they are treated like second class citizens who can lose everything based on an accusation.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Males are treated as guilty until proven innocent. I would call that hostile towards males which is what I said in the first place.

Yes, but the number of occasions where a male is mistreated on a college campus is microscopic compared to the number of times female students are mistreated on a college campus.


It doesn't excuse men being mistreated of course, but there is no comparing the two situations. They are not even remotely in the same galaxy as each other.

Sexual assault is a criminal matter. Colleges shouldn't be expelling people before an official investigation and someone is charged. As it is, it's no wonder males don't want to go to college, they are treated like second class citizens who can lose everything based on an accusation.

Yes sexual assault is a criminal matter, but that doesn't change the fact that universities have a right to choose who can attend their school and that they have a duty to protect their students from any dangers that present themselves. You are of course free to dislike that they handle it this way, but that is not gonna stop companies and universities from distancing themselves from accused sexual abusers in today's political and social climate.

 

[Zog]

Yes, but the number of occasions where a male is mistreated on a college campus is microscopic compared to the number of times female students are mistreated on a college campus.


It doesn't excuse men being mistreated of course, but there is no comparing the two situations. They are not even remotely in the same galaxy as each other.

You keep trying to pull me into the victim olympics but I am not going to get pulled into who has it 'worse' because then we just end up arguing stats. My argument is that guilty until proven innocent is wrong.

Yes sexual assault is a criminal matter, but that doesn't change the fact that universities have a right to choose who can attend their school and that they have a duty to protect their students from any dangers that present themselves. You are of course free to dislike that they handle it this way, but that is not gonna stop companies and universities from distancing themselves from accused sexual abusers in today's political and social climate.

Maybe the lawsuits from innocent expelled students will.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Maybe the lawsuits from innocent expelled students will.

Okay I'll humor you.



Which will cost them more money?

Lawsuits by innocent students accused of sexual assault that they expelled out of caution

OR

Lawsuits of victims of sexual assault where the student was allowed to stay on campus and attacked another victim after already being accused before and the school knew about the accusations.


Keep in mind that false accusations are very rare and women are attacked far more often than innocent men are accused. So just in case number alone Option #2 wins. Thats not even counting the sympathetic dollar amounts that courts will award the victims of such oversights.


Which will cost them more money in the long run?

Students leaving or boycotting a school because someone accused of sexual assault was expelled

OR

Students leaving or boycotting after the school publicly stands behind someone accused of sexual assault or lets someone accused of sexual assault stay on campus




Now I'm not a mathematician, but I am fairly certain that Universities are already following the course of action that will cost them the least amount of money.

 

[MamaRice]

You keep trying to pull me into the victim olympics but I am not going to get pulled into who has it 'worse' because then we just end up arguing stats. My argument is that guilty until proven innocent is wrong.

Maybe the lawsuits from innocent expelled students will.

I'm definitely willing to agree that taking an absolute stance of "guilty until proven innocent" about all of these cases on college campuses and other courts of public opinion probably isn't the best approach.

In the interest of conversation, and compromise (for lack of a better word), we can agree that between "women's rapists get away with it" and "men get falsely accused of rape", these are both bad problems that need to be addressed.

I'll do my part to bridge the gap. There's a lot of misconceptions, and part of it does get perpetrated by these viral graphics showing all the men supposedly getting away with rape and not getting convicted. I'll choose to focus on the one specific graphic by RAINN that everyone likes to circulate. I won't post the actual image here, to avoid the distraction, but I'll link it.

A few sites have already done their part to analyze this data, and seperate truth from fiction. I'll post some things they've said. "It uses illustrations of a male figure to quantify “rapists,” but the information it cites refers to cases of rape or sexual assault. As Slate has pointed out, this is an incorrect assumption that there is one rape per perpetrator. There are various studies that show the frequency of rapes being perpetrated multiple times by the same person."

"The graphic shows a rape reporting rate of 10 percent, but that is relatively low. Using the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey statistics from 2008 to 2012, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network estimated 40 percent of rapes get reported to the police. This is close to the 2013 criminal victimization rates, which estimated 35 percent of rape or sexual assault cases are reported.

Compared to other crimes in the 2013 survey, the reporting rate of rape or sexual assault was low compared to other crimes. The most frequently reported crimes were motor vehicle theft and robbery.

Experts have pointed out limitations of the National Crime Victimization Survey in quantifying reports of rape. For example, the survey’s definitions of rape or “sexual attack” is inconsistent with states’ legal definitions or with standard methodology for sexual assault research, according to research by End Violence Against Women International’s Kimberly Lonsway, who is one of the most-cited experts on the topic. The limitations in this data collection method reduce estimates for prevalence and incidence, according to Lonsway’s research, because victims of sexual assault may not identify with the particular wording presented in the survey.

Moreover, estimating the rate of cases that were not reported is always going to be just that — an estimate.

Given the difficulty of making estimates, most experts offer a range, not a single number. Depending on the population studied, experts estimate a range of 5 to 20 percent of sexual assaults being reported to law enforcement."

"False reporting is a difficult number to measure. The Enliven Project uses 2 percent of “falsely accused” cases, out of the 100 reported cases of rape. There is an important distinction that must be made here, between accusations and reports. “Accusations” may refer to claims that were not made in official police reports, whereas “reports” generally refer to cases that were filed with law enforcement.

That, again, seems to be the lower end of the estimate range. The “Making a Difference” Project, which used data collected by law enforcement agencies over 18 to 24 months, found 7 percent of cases that were classified as false. That study is the “only research conducted in the U.S. to evaluate the percentage of false reports made to law enforcement,” according to the National Center for the Prosecution of Violence Against Women. Other studies also estimate somewhere between 2 and 10 percent."

So basically, graphics like these, tend to be full of inaccuracies. They claim to want to start conversations, and expose the "truth" about how much men are getting away with rape, but these don't do their full due diligence in making sure all the info is as accurate as possible so they have a proper argument to start from.

I say all this so you know I'm not trying to be biased or accusatory in my following comments and line of questioning. I'm really just trying to come to a place of understanding. These are problems I care deeply about, and I want people to be on the same page so they can be solved.

The reality is that, yes, at many schools, the Title IX rules have led to too much attacking of the murky, ambiguous cases of inexperienced young people who simply don't know how to talk to each other about sex. But here's another reality.

A 2007 survey by the National Institute of Justice found that 19.0% of college women and 6.1% of college men experienced either sexual assault or attempted sexual assault since entering college.

Sex offense victims in 2012 (FBI):

• 67,345 female
• 12,100 male

Convicted sex offenders in 2012 (FBI):

• 4,394 female
• 70,930 male

Since 2009, law enforcement offices have been legally required to report the number of rape kits they have, both reported and unreported. Note: That's 2009. So before, they didn't have to keep that information at all. We have many sources showing the large backlog of untested rape kits in the thousands, in every state. I'm a little wary about posting one, because it's always so hard to predict what people will call biased these days, on both sides. But the sources are readily available for you to search. NYC, I believe I've heard the number 17,000. Sometimes these kits can be decades old.

A 2014 report by the Department of Justice estimated that 34.8% cases of sexual assaults are reported to the authorities. Note: this isn't just women. Men OVERWHELMINGLY do not report when they are victims of sexual assault.

Here's a stat you may find interesting:

Looking across different government survey sources, for a given year male adult and youth inmates are estimated to suffer several times more incidents of sexual victimization than incarcerated females. Male and female inmates are not included in most national surveys of sexual victimization.

I'm sure we've all heard prison rape jokes, and some have made them or laughed at them. But the truth is, yeah, a lot of men are getting raped in prison, and outside of it, and no one really seems to care. It is my belief that the culture of being incredibly harsh and dismissive to victims of rape is harmful to both men AND women. I fight against rape culture, for the benefit of everyone.

According to psychologist Sarah Crome, fewer than 1 in 10 male-male rapes are reported. As a group, male rape victims reported a lack of services and support, and legal systems are often ill-equipped to deal with this type of crime. Wouldn't it stand to reason, if not many women are reporting their rape cases either, that the same flaws (lack of support, ill-equipped legal systems) would apply for them as well?

Insurance companies have denied coverage for rape victims, claiming a variety of bases for their actions. In one case, after a victim mentioned she had previously been raped 17 years before, an insurance company refused to pay for her rape exam and also refused to pay for therapy or medication for trauma, because she "had been raped before" – indicating a preexisting condition. Some insurance companies have allegedly denied sexual-assault victims mental-health treatment, stating that the service is not medically necessary.

Brock Turner was indicted on January 28, 2015, on five charges: two for rape, two for felony sexual assault, and one for attempted rape. Those sentences carry a prison sentence of up to 14 years. He was sentenced to 6 months, only served three, and had to be a convicted sex offender for life. His father said it was a "steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action." He was found by two witnesses to raping the girl while she was unconscious.

I hope we can all agree that from these stats (and many others that are readily available) that rape is a large problem for both sexes. In the UK, Only 1,070 rapists are convicted every year despite their being up to 95,000 victims according to the new research by the Ministry of Justice, the Home Office and the Office for National Statistics. I think it's a little silly and presumptuous to JUST say "if these people were were assaulted would just go to the police and go through the proper channels, then there would be more convictions.", especially when we can look at cases like Brock Turner, who WAS convicted, but we can all agree, far too leniently.

Many people on this site believe that a strong stance against illegal immigration is necessary. I'm not here to argue against that. Many people here also believe that a VERY strong stance about the threat of Islamic Extremism is necessary. I'm not here to argue against that. Many here support Trump's travel ban from those muslim countries, and I would assume that many here also supported airlines turning airport security way, way up after 9/11. (Although a lot of people would agree now that that's gone too far.)

I have also seen quite a few people here say that it's natural and logical for the police to be more cautious in certain communties and with certain groups of people, because the statistics show that those communities are more likely to commit crimes.

Well, the truth is, there are innocent people, especially people of color but certainly not all, that are often negatively affected, and sometimes have their lives ruined by these strong stances. I would imagine that many of the people here who support those stances would agree that the "rare" cases of innocent people being negatively affected, is a small, but regrettable circumstance, and just an unfortunate side effect, of the tough, cautious, nationalistic attitude we need to have to keep Americans safe.

Following that exact logic, wouldn't it then make sense for women to not only be wary that men are going to rape them, but for campuses and other courts of public opinion to have STRONG stances fighting the threat of rape, and that the few cases of innocent people getting hurt by it, is just a small but regrettable circumstance, and an unfortunate side effect of the tough, cautious attitude we need to have to keep potential victims and Americans safe?

Personally, I think if you really want to be truthful to that adage mentioned previously, you should update it to be more specific: "It's better for hundreds of thousands of women to get raped, and not get justice, than for thousands of men to be falsely accused."

Most importantly, My follow-up question: What do you believe is that best strategy to combat this problem, for the benefit of both men and women, that does not involve going full guilty until proven innocent?

 

[Greedings]

What's funny is the declining populations of men in colleges.

Makes the anti-intellectualism going on in this thread ironic.

Are you implying that I'm anti-intellectual? I work in academia, I've seen first hand the difference between humanities and natural sciences. Humanities peer review is just a circle jerk of the same people promoting the same ideas, and if we're doing the linking thing, it's not a surprise that 80% humanities journal articles are never cited. That means most of the research is not impacting anyone. As opposed to the hundreds and thousands of citations that science articles receive.

But books! Books! I hear you say. Yes, humanities often publish their most important findings in books. However peer review is not the same between books and articles. Books are, quite obviously substantially longer, so only a few stand-out parts, or the theme can be addressed in review.
Fewer people are drawn on to review a book (in the tiny, esoteric sub-fields of humanities this often doesn't give a publisher much choice) and book reviews are not back-and-forth affairs like journal articles, it's more of a one big hit, which the author either accepts or rejects. Whether you can really call book peer review, peer review is dicy in my opinion. It doesn't look like peer review in any other field.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I'm proud to be American! Say it loud, say it proud!

 

[Papa]

Ah yes Obama, of course...



Not at all, but acting like men are the real victims on US campuses just delusional.

Do you deny that it was Obama’s changes to Title IX laws that introduced kangaroo courts and a preponderance of evidence burden of proof to US college campuses?

 

[Papa]

Because it reflects badly on the university and just like when an employee reflects badly on a company and the company fires them a University has the right to do the same if a student gets involved with something that reflects badly on the University they attend. Especially when the situation potentially affects the safety of the rest of the student body. A University should not be expected to allow a potential rapist to walk around on campus if they have been presented with evidence and testimony from a victim.


You are looking at this from the perspective of a legal court,, but thats not what this is. They have to consider all the options and outcomes and as I said earlier if a University were to get it wrong and allow a guilty student to stay and they attack ANOTHER student? It would be Michigan State 2.0 and the fallout would be devastating to the university both financially and in form of public trust. Nobody is gonna send their kid to a school who let a rapist walk free because they doubted the victim.


So Universities are forced to make a judgement call and possibly expel the student. They might get it wrong yes, but the statistics say they will be right the vast majority of the time and they will be keeping their students safe from a predator and thats what is most important.



In a court of law? No. It should always be innocent until proven guilty. No one should be presumed guilty in a court of law before they can present a case to defend themselves.


In the court of public opinion? Absolutely. Especially when it comes to sex crimes and especially now in the current environment of the #MeToo movement. The benefit of the doubt goes to the victim in these cases and Companies/Universities know that standing up for the accused is percieved as standing against the victim and act accordingly. No one wants to be perceived as siding against a rape victim.


I'm not saying its the best way for the situation to play out. In a perfect world there would be a better way to handle sexual assault claims where the accuser is believed and the accused is innocent until proven otherwise, but this isn't a perfect world.

I think you are either young or very misinformed. Likely both. I don’t have any more time to waste on this, so good luck to you. Before I bow out of this discussion, I have one request: consider yourself in a situation of being falsely accused and what you would expect from the law/authorities.

 

[MamaRice]

Do you deny that it was Obama’s changes to Title IX laws that introduced kangaroo courts and a preponderance of evidence burden of proof to US college campuses?

Hopefully a moderator will approve my posts soon. You'll see that I addressed that in my previous post.

But even with those "kangaroo courts and a preponderance of evidence burden of proof", the numbers still show that many people are getting raped, far more than the number of people getting convicted, and far more than those getting falsely accused. This isn't me playing olympics. Just stating the facts. They are both problems.

We can agree that the "solution" (for lack of a better word) to handling false accusations is to stop the culture of "guilty until proven innocent". But what is the solution to all the rapes that are still happening and going unconvicted if not that? As I said before, a lot of people here think to stop the threat of muslim terrorism, we need to get tougher on finding potential terrorists, even when it harms some innocent muslims. A lot of people here think it's okay for the police to be tough on crime, even though sometimes, innocent people end up hurt. Can the same not be said for being tough on rape? Why is it any different?

 

[Nobody_Important]

I think you are either young or very misinformed. Likely both. I don’t have any more time to waste on this, so good luck to you. Before I bow out of this discussion, I have one request: consider yourself in a situation of being falsely accused and what you would expect from the law/authorities.

I would expect the law to presume I'm innocent until proven otherwise and I would expect my school or employer to do whatever they deemed necessary to protect themselves and others.


You keep mentioning the law over and over like the other guy even though I have stated multiple times now that this is the court of public opinion we are talking about. A person does not need to be proven guilty in a court of law to be removed from their position or school. If the University believes its in the best interest of safety to remove him from the campus then they are well within their rights to do so. Especially if they have evidence that supports the accusations. They are not obligated to let a suspected sexual predator wander around on their campus. You can not like it and thats your right, but its not going to be changing anytime soon. There is simply too much money and too much danger involved for a company or university to take that kind of risk. Especially when the odds of the accusation being false are comparatively very low.


Thats all I'm saying on the matter. I won't derail the thread any further.

 

[Zog]

I would expect my school or employer to do whatever they deemed necessary to protect themselves and others.

If you were accused of sexual assault even though you are innocent you would gladly give up your career and your reputation to protect your employer and others?

 

[Nobody_Important]

If you were accused of sexual assault even though you are innocent you would gladly give up your career and your reputation to protect your employer and others?

Gladly? No. I would of course be upset. But I would not personally blame the university or company for taking the safe option and distancing themselves from me. Because they don't know I'm innocent and the blowback on them if they stand behind me and it turns out I am guilty is too high to reasonably expect them to take that chance with their staff and their company or institution.


Now with that clarification I really am done. There is no point in debating this any further. We are simply too far apart in opinion to have any reasonable conclusion to this discussion.

 

[MamaRice]

If you were accused of sexual assault even though you are innocent you would gladly give up your career and your reputation to protect your employer and others?

I have a trans friend that was falsely accused of sexual assault by two people, and she is currently dealing with those accusations with the school board, under the threat of losing her place at the school, and basically ruining her life.

But she still believes we should be tough on sexual abusers, and defend the accusers, because she understands that it's still a much bigger problem, and that her specific problem comes from assholes accusing her. She doesn't disparage the university for taking it seriously, and she isn't mad at them for it. She's only mad at the people who accused her.

So yeah, it happens.

 

[Zog]

Gladly? No. I would of course be upset. But I would not personally blame the university or company for taking the safe option and distancing themselves from me. Because they don't know I'm innocent and the blowback on them if they stand behind me and it turns out I am guilty is too high to reasonably expect them to take that chance with their staff and their company or institution.


Now with that clarification I really am done. There is no point in debating this any further. We are simply too far apart in opinion to have any reasonable conclusion to this discussion.

I hope you are never accused. Have a good night.

 

[Greedings]

Gladly? No. I would of course be upset. But I would not personally blame the university or company for taking the safe option and distancing themselves from me. Because they don't know I'm innocent and the blowback on them if they stand behind me and it turns out I am guilty is too high to reasonably expect them to take that chance with their staff and their company or institution.

This is such a strange opinion. Have you ever been accused of something you didn't do? The usual human reaction is to be outraged and fight it, not go down saying "well I understand why this massive, faceless institution wants to assume my guilt, just in case, I suppose I can just lay down and accept my unjust fate."

Wow. Are you just saying this stuff, or do you actually believe it? I could at least understand if you were just trying to make a point, but to actually behave this way is...I don't know how to put it...spineless.

 

[MamaRice]

This is such a strange opinion. Have you ever been accused of something you didn't do? The usual human reaction is to be outraged and fight it, not go down saying "well I understand why this massive, faceless institution wants to assume my guilt, just in case, I suppose I can just lay down and accept my unjust fate."

Wow. Are you just saying this stuff, or do you actually believe it? I could at least understand if you were just trying to make a point, but to actually behave this way is...I don't know how to put it...spineless.

Many women (and many men) give up trying to bring their abusers to trial because of the difficulty of proving the assault, or the treatment they recieve from law enforcement, prosecution, and their peers. They become overwhelmingly frustrated with the faceless system, and choose to not fight it, despite the fact that they were sexually abused. Are they spineless? Or is the system just that powerful that choosing to not fight is the pragmatic option to save what little bit of sanity you have left?

There's a reason the guilty plea is a choice you're given, is another way to look at this. I'm not saying it's right, because I don't think it is, but it's reality. And you'll have to excuse me if I don't think it's very fair to judge any individual person on the battles they choose to not fight.

When I was in middle school, a boy hit me and I hit him back. We were both suspended, and my mom was very furious that I was getting in trouble for defending myself. She made that very clear to them. Is she "spineless" for not escalating the situation and suing the school?

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Are you implying that I'm anti-intellectual? I work in academia, I've seen first hand the difference between humanities and natural sciences. Humanities peer review is just a circle jerk of the same people promoting the same ideas, and if we're doing the linking thing, it's not a surprise that 80% humanities journal articles are never cited. That means most of the research is not impacting anyone. As opposed to the hundreds and thousands of citations that science articles receive.

But books! Books! I hear you say. Yes, humanities often publish their most important findings in books. However peer review is not the same between books and articles. Books are, quite obviously substantially longer, so only a few stand-out parts, or the theme can be addressed in review.
Fewer people are drawn on to review a book (in the tiny, esoteric sub-fields of humanities this often doesn't give a publisher much choice) and book reviews are not back-and-forth affairs like journal articles, it's more of a one big hit, which the author either accepts or rejects. Whether you can really call book peer review, peer review is dicy in my opinion. It doesn't look like peer review in any other field.

You're one of those STEM people who thumb your nose at the humanities such that if you had actually read the paper you attached to the thread, you would know that its hypothesis is that given the propensity of scientific research being made accessible electronically, then there would be more citations, as well as newer, rather than older work being cited.

Humanities are not the focus, but are mentioned as some sort of control to the actual objectives of the paper. This is wha tit actually says:

In fact, only the broad field of HUM behaves differently, as it does with regard to several other aspects of scholarly communication, such as collaboration (Larivière, Gingras and Archambault, 2006) and the use of serials (Larivière, Archambault, Gingras and Vignola-Gagné, 2006). The very low percentage of articles cited at least once may be a reflection of the tendency of humanities researchers to cite books instead of articles. All in all, these data strongly show that, in all fields except HUM, fewer and fewer of the published papers go unnoticed and uncited and, consequently, science is increasingly drawing on the stock of published papers.

You knew this which is why you wrote the paragraph about books. You referred to what is called collaboration in this paper, a "circle-jerk." You didn't consider that a dissertation or monograph equivalent in STEM is 100 pages, while in the Humanities, 300 might get you to skate by. That is because the humanities has been around longer, so if you want to be respected in the field, you had better know your ****.

Apart from a small “bump” in the data, which can very likely be attributed to the poor quality of the data in HUM at the beginning of the Eighties, no trend can be discerned. The extremely skewed nature of the data in HUM, again, suggests that extreme caution should be applied in using journal-based bibliometric data for the evaluation of research in HUM.

This section ****s on your assessment. The paper essentially says "Woe to those to make assumptions about the Humanities using the same methodologies that one would use to track STEM citations."

I'm not even going to address what you have to say about journals, since no actual reputable humanities journals are listed.

When you come at the king, you best not miss!

 

[DeepEnigma]

Proud? No. I personally would not use that word because I'm of the belief that one should not have pride over things out of their control, it just breeds more elitism, supremacy, fueling the already inflated human egos we have.

Thankful, yes. Appreciative, yes.

Pride should be reserved for accomplishments that you worked hard to achieve, but still with humbleness on the other hand.

 

[oagboghi2]

No they are saying that a handful of false accusations doesn't make men the most suffering gender on college campuses.


Women have it FAR worse on college campuses in a variety of different ways. There is no comparison.

Is this the part where we pretend college campuses are as dangerous as warzones, and not accept what they are in reality. Some of the richest, safest places in the world?

You knew this which is why you wrote the paragraph about books. You referred to what is called collaboration in this paper, a "circle-jerk." You didn't consider that a dissertation or monograph equivalent in STEM is 100 pages, while in the Humanities, 300 might get you to skate by. That is because the humanities has been around longer, so if you want to be respected in the field, you had better know your ****.


When you come at the king, you best not miss!

300 pages. Oh so impressive.

 

[DeepEnigma]

300 pages. Oh so impressive.

Your response kind of gave me a chuckle, because whenever bills or new legislation are presented to Congress, they are usually thousands of pages long, and yet the media only focuses literally on two sentences out of the entire thing, lol.

So does size really matter in that context?

 

[Papa]

Your response kind of gave me a chuckle, because whenever bills or new legislation are presented to Congress, they are usually thousands of pages long, and yet the media only focuses literally on two sentences out of the entire thing, lol.

So does size really matter?

Only if you’re compensating for something.

 

[Dr. Claus]

You're one of those STEM people who thumb your nose at the humanities such that if you had actually read the paper you attached to the thread, you would know that its hypothesis is that given the propensity of scientific research being made accessible electronically, then there would be more citations, as well as newer, rather than older work being cited.

Humanities are not the focus, but are mentioned as some sort of control to the actual objectives of the paper. This is wha tit actually says:



You knew this which is why you wrote the paragraph about books. You referred to what is called collaboration in this paper, a "circle-jerk." You didn't consider that a dissertation or monograph equivalent in STEM is 100 pages, while in the Humanities, 300 might get you to skate by. That is because the humanities has been around longer, so if you want to be respected in the field, you had better know your ****.



This section ****s on your assessment. The paper essentially says "Woe to those to make assumptions about the Humanities using the same methodologies that one would use to track STEM citations."

I'm not even going to address what you have to say about journals, since no actual reputable humanities journals are listed.

When you come at the king, you best not miss!

Are you seriously trying to compare length to quality? My god this hurts to read.

 

[BANGS]

"EXTREME" means extreme... most people aren't in the extreme of anything...

Also in modern times people have learned to shed their pride in shallow things such as race, nationality, sex, etc...

 

[Phoenix RISING]

300 pages. Oh so impressive.

You should try it.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

The past 24 hours have been my favorite politically in the past two years.

Today was a good day.

 

[Papa]

You should try it.

Like Leah Remini, I hope that at some point in your life, you realise you’ve been swindled by a cult. Sooner rather than later for your sake.

 

[Boss Mog]

I can understand liking your country and being patriotic but being proud to be an American is stupid unless you immigrated legally and passed your citizenship test then I guess you can be proud because you can only be proud of an achievement and simply being born in America through no say of your own doesn't really justify the notion of pride. It's the same reason I find gay pride pretty stupid since being gay is not a choice there's nothing to be proud of. It would be the same as saying proud to be straight or proud to be white which are just as stupid but at least correctly identified as such but political correctness often forbids it from applying to other things people are "proud of" even though they have no control whatsoever over them.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Like Leah Remini, I hope that at some point in your life, you realise you’ve been swindled by a cult. Sooner rather than later for your sake.

Somehow I doubt they will. Humanities are important, I don't think anyone would actually deny that - however their sad attempt at trying to feel superior/show superiority just comes across as childish. The blatant misinformation they spout about STEM is quite frankly embarrassing. If this is how they want to promote Humanities, they are doing more damage than good.

 

[Papa]

Somehow I doubt they will. Humanities are important, I don't think anyone would actually deny that - however their sad attempt at trying to feel superior/show superiority just comes across as childish. The blatant misinformation they spout about STEM is quite frankly embarrassing. If this is how they want to promote Humanities, they are doing more damage than good.

Not all humanities are equal. Psychology and some other streams of Social Sciences are absolutely important. Pretty much anything ending in Studies is a pseudoscientific cult.