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[Dr. Claus]

No I don't know that. How are they different? What if I don't want to pledge my "alleigiance" to the country? Why are you comparing a class assignment to something that's not a class assignment? It's not needed to pass the class, so why force a kid to do it?

He sat/kneeled to make a political statement during the national anthem.

Meanwhile, children say a harmless chant in the mornings which take 30 seconds and move on, rarely do they even think twice during it. You, for some odd reason, are demonizing a harmless little chant. Move on, mate. You aren't even a kid anymore, so why does it matter? They are kids. They do not need to worry about politics or the troubles of the country. The only thing they need to worry about is if they get cooties or their school yard crushes. Don't push your own issues with politics onto them.

 

[mckmas8808]

Some kids do think alot before being told to say the Pledge of Alliengence in school. They are shaken to their core when they know they won't stand up and say it with the class, knowing that the teacher may or will force them to put their hand over their heart and say it. You keep calling it harmless, yet you seem to want to make the kids say the pledge in schools.

Could it be possible that I have a nephew in school that I care about? It doesn't always have to be able me or you. If you want o keep politics out of our schools, then let's stop saying the Pledge of Alliengence in schools. Deal?

And originally Colin sat because his conscious wouldn't allow him to stand.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Some kids do think alot before being told to say the Pledge of Alliengence in school. They are shaken to their core when they know they won't stand up and say it with the class, knowing that the teacher may or will force them to put their hand over their heart and say it. You keep calling it harmless, yet you seem to want to make the kids say the pledge in schools.

Could it be possible that I have a nephew in school that I care about? It doesn't always have to be able me or you. If you want o keep politics out of our schools, then let's stop saying the Pledge of Alliengence in schools. Deal?

And originally Colin sat because his conscious wouldn't allow him to stand.

Yes, based on a political stance/statement. They are kids. You are the one that is pushing your own issues with the political landscape/country on children, mate. Also I would love to meet the kids who are somehow "shaken to their core" when they are told to do the Pledge of Allegiance.

Anyways, you are the one pushing this narrative that it is harmful. I would love some actual evidence that that is the case. So far you have provided none.

 

[Zog]

Some kids are shaken to the core when they are told to do homework or to do physical activity in PE class. They still have to do it. I said the Pledge of Allegiance when I was a kid, it was meaningless to me then and was no different that doing anything else that was mandatory.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yes, based on a political stance/statement. They are kids. You are the one that is pushing your own issues with the political landscape/country on children, mate. Also I would love to meet the kids who are somehow "shaken to their core" when they are told to do the Pledge of Allegiance.

Anyways, you are the one pushing this narrative that it is harmful. I would love some actual evidence that that is the case. So far you have provided none.

You never thought that it could be experiences that I've heard kids say personally? Not everything is "pics or it didn't happen" on the internet. There are religious reasons why someone wouldn't want to pledge their allegiance to a nation. And kids are also allowed to understand the politics of a nation at a young age if they want to. No reason to purposely make them ignorant if they choose not to be.

Some kids are shaken to the core when they are told to do homework or to do physical activity in PE class. They still have to do it. I said the Pledge of Allegiance when I was a kid, it was meaningless to me then and was no different that doing anything else that was mandatory.

So that's the country we living in now? You going to make kids eat school lunch too during lunchtime?

 

[Maedre]

How can someone be proud of something he or she has no control over. Bullshit patriotism.

 

[Ke0]

The only other countries I know of that make children recite a pledge of allegiance are North Korea, parts of China, parts of Russia…and Germany during WWII. Pledging allegiance in itself sounds weird as heck

 

[oagboghi2]

No I don't know that. How are they different? What if I don't want to pledge my "alleigiance" to the country? Why are you comparing a class assignment to something that's not a class assignment? It's not needed to pass the class, so why force a kid to do it?

You are not forced to recite the pledge. Stop lying.

And would you disagree considering the history of said nation and the trajectory of how things have gone over the last 400 years?

I would disagree that America is a uniquely awful place because we have a tainted past. All countries do.

I know that opinion makes me a "radical extremist" amongst the left

 

[Zog]

You never thought that it could be experiences that I've heard kids say personally? Not everything is "pics or it didn't happen" on the internet. There are religious reasons why someone wouldn't want to pledge their allegiance to a nation. And kids are also allowed to understand the politics of a nation at a young age if they want to. No reason to purposely make them ignorant if they choose not to be.



So that's the country we living in now? You going to make kids eat school lunch too during lunchtime?

Well yeah, if they refuse to eat on a regular basis then it will have to be discussed with the parents to determine a course of action. Are you saying that homework and physical activity in PE class should be optional?

 

[mckmas8808]

You are not forced to recite the pledge. Stop lying.


I would disagree that America is a uniquely awful place because we have a tainted past. All countries do.

I know that opinion makes me a "radical extremist" amongst the left

There have been instances where a teacher has physically put a kid's hand over their heart, made them stand up, or separated them from the other students as a punishment after not receiting the pledge in class. You are a radical extremist because of that statement. That's literally a factual statement. But everyone doesn't have to also believe USA is #1\best country ever and be super proud of the country.

Well yeah, if they refuse to eat on a regular basis then it will have to be discussed with the parents to determine a course of action. Are you saying that homework and physical activity in PE class should be optional?

Homework and PE class is different than saying the Pledge of Alliegence.

 

[Dr. Claus]

There have been instances where a teacher has physically put a kid's hand over their heart, made them stand up, or separated them from the other students as a punishment after not receiting the pledge in class. You are a radical extremist because of that statement. That's literally a factual statement. But everyone doesn't have to also believe USA is #1\best country ever and be super proud of the country.



Homework and PE class is different than saying the Pledge of Alliegence.

Yes, because a shitty teacher indicates that the Pledge of Allegiance is the problem.

 

[Papa]

Now that I know you're an anti-intellectual pundit, goodbye.

University Press/vetted by experts in the field or GTF0.

“Experts” in an invalid field. You’ve been duped.

This is pure fantasy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrofuturism

 

[Phoenix RISING]

My man, but don't forget:

HAWT!!!

Interesting how this and Evicted were both published within a similar window.

 

[oagboghi2]

There have been instances where a teacher has physically put a kid's hand over their heart, made them stand up, or separated them from the other students as a punishment after not receiting the pledge in class. You are a radical extremist because of that statement. That's literally a factual statement. But everyone doesn't have to also believe USA is #1\best country ever and be super proud of the country.

Anecdotal references to one offs in a country of 300 million is irrelevant. You have a constitutional right to refuse to recite the pledge. Again, stop lying. You aren't slick.

I never said you have to be or do anything. I just floated the idea that if you despise the country so much, leave. The fact that so many people feel so lowly about this country, but don't "vote with their feet" says a lot about America too. Talk is cheap, after all.

Become a refugee. That's in vogue these days.

Homework and PE class is different than saying the Pledge of Alliegence.

Yeah, one is a government requirement. Guess which is which?

 

[mckmas8808]

Yes, because a shitty teacher indicates that the Pledge of Allegiance is the problem.

I didn't say the Pledge was the problem. Clearly the problem here would be the teacher.

Yeah, one is a government requirement. Guess which is which?

I'd guess PE class.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Peer review in the humanities is laughable.

What's funny is the declining populations of men in colleges.

Makes the anti-intellectualism going on in this thread ironic.

 

[Zog]

What's funny is the declining populations of men in colleges.

Makes the anti-intellectualism going on in this thread ironic.

Colleges are hostile to males.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Colleges are hostile to males.

Colleges are hostiles to scumbags*.

To functional human beings, being on campus where the ratio is 8-to-1 grants this perpetual sense of euphoria like Scrooge McDuck swimming through a pool of coins.

 

[TrainedRage]

Colleges are hostiles to scumbags*.

To functional human beings, being on campus where the ratio is 8-to-1 grants this perpetual sense of euphoria like Scrooge McDuck swimming through a pool of coins.

Are you currently in college?

 

[Zog]

Colleges are hostiles to scumbags*.

Not if the scumbag is female. Have you not heard of innocent men suing colleges that expelled them over a false allegation?

 

[Ke0]

Not if the scumbag is female. Have you not heard of innocent men suing colleges that expelled them over a false allegation?

I imagine the number of women raped on campus absolutely dwarfs false allegations by a hilariously large amount.

 

[Papa]

What's funny is the declining populations of men in colleges.

Makes the anti-intellectualism going on in this thread ironic.

Anti-pseudointellectualism*

 

[LegendOfKage]

What's funny is the declining populations of men in colleges.

Makes the anti-intellectualism going on in this thread ironic.

I don't personally care to weigh in on anything discussed in the thread right now, and I haven't been reading along up until now, but I did want to make one point.

Please don't confuse being anti-academia with being anti-intellectual. The former is largely a criticism of ideology, while the latter is criticism of knowledge and thought.

 

[Papa]

I imagine the number of women raped on campus absolutely dwarfs false allegations by a hilariously large amount.

I don’t. In fact, I think the opposite is more likely given what Obama did with Title IX laws.

 

[Zog]

I imagine the number of women raped on campus absolutely dwarfs false allegations by a hilariously large amount.

So what are you saying? Are you saying that false accusations are ok as long as there are more actual rapes?

 

[Darkking2001]

So what are you saying? Are you saying that that rape victims getting punished is okay so long as there are more actual true claims?

Trust me Zog its a lose lose either way

 

[Nobody_Important]

So what are you saying? Are you saying that false accusations are ok as long as there are more actual rapes?

No they are saying that a handful of false accusations doesn't make men the most suffering gender on college campuses.


Women have it FAR worse on college campuses in a variety of different ways. There is no comparison.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I imagine the number of women raped on campus absolutely dwarfs false allegations by a hilariously large amount.

Speaking of scumbaggery, behold: not actually caring about sexual assault but finding time to victim blame.

 

[Papa]

No they are saying that a handful of false accusations doesn't make men the most suffering gender on college campuses.


Women have it FAR worse on college campuses in a variety of different ways. There is no comparison.

Why does it have to be a competition?

 

[Papa]

Speaking of scumbaggery, behold: not actually caring about sexual assault but finding time to victim blame.

Behold: throwing out buzzwords to gloss over a serious issue.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Why does it have to be a competition?

Because that person made it sound like men overall have it bad when it comes to being on college campuses. They don't.

 

[Zog]

So what are you saying? Are you saying that that rape victims getting punished is okay so long as there are more actual true claims?

Trust me Zog its a lose lose either way

I never said anything like that. I think people should be innocent until proven guilty and treating males as guilty just because they were accused is hostility towards males.

 

[Papa]

Because that person made it sound like men overall have it bad when it comes to being on college campuses. They don't.

But why are you thinking at the group level instead of the individual level? Can you not see the danger in that?

 

[Zog]

No they are saying that a handful of false accusations doesn't make men the most suffering gender on college campuses.


Women have it FAR worse on college campuses in a variety of different ways. There is no comparison.

What do you think of males being expelled on an accusation alone?

 

[Darkking2001]

Papa
But your the one making into a competition if I got kicked in the nuts and you got lightly slapped and someone said "man dark got treated worse" and you interject with "man its not a competition" the only one in that convo who thinks its one is you. The shit women deal with and the shit men deal with are different sometimes women have it worse sometimes men have it worse

Zog
Fair enough alot of people usually come into a convo like this with "i think you should punish false rape allegations with some server shit"so long as you agree both situations are undesirable.
I'm sorry If I came off abit hostile

 

[Nobody_Important]

What do you think of males being expelled on an accusation alone?

If the accused has a history of infractions and/or the accuser has a plausible story that can be backed up by evidence or witnesses then yes they should be expelled. At that point the university has to make a judgement call that is in the best interest of the safety of their other students. Because if it turns out that the accusations were true and the university let that person stay and it happens AGAIN? Then the university would be up to its ears in lawsuits.


Thats not even mentioning the category 5 shitstorm that would ensue if social media and news networks got wind of a University allowing a potential rapist to stay on campus and then they got accused again. It would be Michigan State 2.0 and there is not a single University in the US that would take that kind of risk. Especially in todays environment


Are there false accusations in the world? Of course. But there are FAR FAR FAR FAR more very real accusations than fake ones so the benefit of the doubt should go to the victim barring any special circumstances. and like I said the university has to do whats in its best interest and in the best interest of the rest of the student body and if that means expelling the accused student then thats what they need to do.

 

[Zog]

If the accused has a history of infractions and/or the accuser has a plausible story that can be backed up by evidence or witnesses then yes they should be expelled. At that point the university has to make a judgement call that is in the best interest of the safety of their other students. Because if it turns out that the accusations were true and the university let that person stay and it happens AGAIN? Then the university would be up to its ears in lawsuits.

So guilty until proven innocent is fine with you. Better to be safe and harm a male than to be sorry and harm a female yeah?

Thats not even mentioning the category 5 shitstorm that would ensue if social media and news networks got wind of a University allowing a potential rapist to stay on campus and then they got accused again. It would be Michigan State 2.0 and there is not a single University in the US that would take that kind of risk. Especially in todays environment

Can you imagine the shitstorm if an innocent male was expelled and lost his future even though he was innocent? Yeah, people don't care as much about that.

Are there false accusations in the world? Of course. But there are FAR FAR FAR FAR more very real accusations than fake ones and the university has to do whats in its best interest and in the best interest of the rest of the student body and if that means expelling the accused student then thats what they need to do.

Well no, they need to contact the proper authorities and let THEM do an ACTUAL investigation and not expel anyone, atleast until someone has been charged with a crime.

 

[Dr. Claus]

So guilty until proven innocent is fine with you. Better to be safe and harm a male than to be sorry and harm a female yeah?


Can you imagine the shitstorm if an innocent male was expelled and lost his future even though he was innocent? Yeah, people don't care as much about that.


Well no, they need to contact the proper authorities and let THEM do an ACTUAL investigation and not expel anyone, atleast until someone has been charged with a crime.

This. The idea that it is okay to expel someone over allegations of rape is absolutely asinine. Male/female, it doesn't matter. This idea of "guilty until proven innocent" is inane and quite frankly horrifying that someone would think that way.

 

[Papa]

Papa
But your the one making into a competition if I got kicked in the nuts and you got lightly slapped and someone said "man dark got treated worse" and you interject with "man its not a competition" the only one in that convo who thinks its one is you. The shit women deal with and the shit men deal with are different sometimes women have it worse sometimes men have it worse

Zog
Fair enough alot of people usually come into a convo like this with "i think you should punish false rape allegations with some server shit"so long as you agree both situations are undesirable.
I'm sorry If I came off abit hostile

Can you please quote me on where I said anything even remotely similar to that?

 

[Nobody_Important]

So guilty until proven innocent is fine with you. Better to be safe and harm a male than to be sorry and harm a female yeah?

When it comes to sexual assault and a campus full of students? Yes its better to be safe than sorry if the accused has a history of behavior issues and/or there is evidence to support the accusations.


If the accused has no history and there is no evidence aside from the word of the victim then its down to the University to make a judgement call. At that point I would prefer the student remain given there is no history and no evidence, but I don't expect a multi-million dollar academy to have the same view as me. They look at the bigger picture.

Can you imagine the shitstorm if an innocent male was expelled and lost his future even though he was innocent? Yeah, people don't care as much about that.

People don't really worry about it because the odds of it happening are so obscenely low that disregarding potential victims over it is just a ridiculous thing to consider. Meanwhile the odds of a woman being sexually harassed or assaulted on a college campus (or anywhere else for that matter) are comparatively MUCH MUCH higher. So the attention and concern goes where it is most likely to be needed.

Well no, they need to contact the proper authorities and let THEM do an ACTUAL investigation and not expel anyone, atleast until someone has been charged with a crime.

In a perfect world that would be a totally fine way to handle it, but this isn't a perfect world. As we all know the police and the courts don't always get it right. Especially in cases for sexual assault where the victims could be so traumatized that they don't want to have to relive the assault over and over again. Thats not even getting into the disgusting culture of victim blaming that invariably arises around these situations which can bully the victim into thinking her attack is somehow her fault. And if I know that then so do the people who run these immensely profitable institutions.


If the University is confronted with accusations and evidence they will of course report it to the authorities, but they are also free to make a decision on their own that is in the best interest for them, their staff and their students. Its actually very similar in the way that companies have to deal with employees that behave in a manner that reflects badly on themselves and the company. The company has a right to distance themselves in order to avoid bad PR and Universities have a right to distance themselves in order to do whats safe for the rest of the student body that they are responsible for.


If an innocent person pays the price for that abundance of caution then that is of course regrettable, but that doesn't mean there should be no caution.

 

[Darkking2001]

Why does it have to be a competition?

Which is in response to "woman have it worse on campus"etc

Him saying woman have it worse isn't making it into a competition....you are, it takes 2 people to compete
Like the only time its 1 person trying to start a competition alone is when they make everything into a competition ex:
"man my knee hurts" "dude my knees hurt more"
Basically its the difference between a person making a statement about a fact vs an opinion
If a person "is" suffering more saying they are suffering more is a fact
If a person "isn't" suffering more but think they are suffering more its an opinion

If you have evidence that you are suffering more and you try to assert it and someone responds with "its not a competition" .
Basically they are moving the conversation from your evidence to your motive.

 

[Zog]

If an innocent person pays the price for that abundance of caution then that is of course regrettable, but that doesn't mean there should be no caution.

Regrettable you say. Anyway, what do you think a college should do to compensate an innocent student that they expelled?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Regrettable you say. Anyway, what do you think a college should do to compensate an innocent student that they expelled?

If they can prove their innocence beyond any doubt or the accuser admits they lied? Public apology and immediate reinstatement if the student chose to accept. But given that now the entire campus will most likely have heard about the ordeal it would be best if the person moved on at that point. I mean I wouldn't wanna go around campus being the guy that got accused of rape. Would you? If the student chooses to decline the invitation back then the school could write him a full recommendation to any other school he wishes to attend ensuring that institution that the accused is absolved of the previous accusations.

 

[Papa]

Which is in response to "woman have it worse on campus"etc

Him saying woman have it worse isn't making it into a competition....you are, it takes 2 people to compete
Like the only time its 1 person trying to start a competition alone is when they make everything into a competition ex:
"man my knee hurts" "dude my knees hurt more"
Basically its the difference between a person making a statement about a fact vs an opinion
If a person "is" suffering more saying they are suffering more is a fact
If a person "isn't" suffering more but think they are suffering more its an opinion

If you have evidence that you are suffering more and you try to assert it and someone responds with "its not a competition" .
Basically they are moving the conversation from your evidence to your motive.

I have no idea who “him” is referring to or how you got any of this from anything I said.

 

[Papa]

If they can prove their innocence beyond any doubt or the accuser admits they lied? Public apology and immediate reinstatement if the student chose to accept. But given that now the entire campus will most likely have heard about the ordeal it would be best if the person moved on at that point. I mean I wouldn't wanna go around campus being the guy that got accused of rape. Would you? If the student chooses to decline the invitation back then the school could write him a full recommendation to any other school he wishes to attend ensuring that institution that the accused is absolved of the previous accusations.

You fundamentally misunderstand the burden of proof and presumption of innocence. Good lord, it is scary that anyone can think like this in <current year>.

 

[Papa]

For those that need a refresher:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone's_formulation

 

[Nobody_Important]

You fundamentally misunderstand the burden of proof and presumption of innocence. Good lord, it is scary that anyone can think like this in <current year>.

No I understand it entirely and thats 100% how it works in a court of law, but we are not talking about a court of law. A University who expels a student for sexual assault accusations is working in the court of public opinion. Just like studios and companies do when one of their employees is accused of the same. They have to do what they feel is best for themselves and the people they represent.

You can disagree with that, but we are far beyond the point of going back to the days of innocent until proven guilty when it comes to sex crimes. That ship has long since sailed. With Social Media being as powerful as it is the court of public opinion is more powerful than any real court could ever be and businesses and universities know that.

 

[Papa]

No I understand it entirely and thats 100% how it works in a court of law, but we are not talking about a court of law. A University who expels a student for sexual assault accusations is working in the court of public opinion. Just like studios and companies do when one of their employees is accused of the same. They have to do what they feel is best for themselves and the people they represent.

You can disagree with that, but we are far beyond the point of going back to the days of innocent until proven guilty when it comes to sex crimes. That ship has long since sailed. With Social Media being as powerful as it is the court of public opinion is more powerful than any real court could ever be and businesses and universities know that.

Why should universities be adjudicating on criminal matters?

 

[Zog]

If they can prove their innocence beyond any doubt or the accuser admits they lied?

Guilty until proven innocent then.

 

[Papa]

Guilty until proven innocent then.

The lack of self-awareness is astounding.