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First FPS console game to use twin-stick layout for moving and aiming?
- Thread starter Alex_Mexico
- Start date
DrROBschiz
Member
Red Faction was my first foray i to Twin stick followed closely by the first halo
Refreshment.01
Member
Yes, Descent of course. It seems to be a fine choice. Bradley. Early 96 no less.
However, you will be opening a Pandora Box in here. Just see the kind of reactions my posts are getting. But since you are not me...
XD
Edit: So Descent supported the PSX anlaog stick before it was released?
I've explained why they're not contradictions. I'm not going to do so again because you refuse to acknowledge that.
I've explained why they're not contradictions. I'm not going to do so again because you refuse to acknowledge that.
Stating that you're making yourself look foolish by clearly and continually remodelling by way of omission the OP's topic for your own personal satisfaction is not an insult, actually. I'm not saying you are a fool.
I'm not asking for you to agree with the OP. I'm saying you're not honouring the desired topic, and you admit as much with this very hypothetical that compares an apple (a troll thread) to an orange (a genuine call for submissions that address the topic).
I think this was it?
Wow I can remember this.
paragonpro
Banned
Halo was the first i remember but I know there were games before that.
Refreshment.01
Member
Understood JaseC.
So in regards to the topic at hand, you are in agreement with the OP that Alien Resurrection (2000) and Uprising X (1998) where the 2 games that set the standard and popularized Dual Stick control schemes for console shooters.
Can you please post the product's name. Can't see the picture here.
PlayStation Analog Joystick SCPH-1110
Refreshment.01
Member
There's a small confusion here GLow.
i was indeed talking about the PSX Twin Stick when i made the question about the release date. Descent came some months earlier than the Twin Stick. Yet, it support it.
Thank you.
I'm no expert on the subject, but I'm inclined to agree with this post:
ah. In my defense, the modern internet has totally ruined the word "joystick" :V
petran79
Banned
Regarding consoles, Japanese 3D platform FPS games like Geograph Seal (Sharp X68000) and Jumping Flash (PS1) and their influence are also ignored. Jumping Flash was the first console 3D platformer
Refreshment.01
Member
Why didn't you adress him about that claim (Alien Resurrection/Uprising X) then? That's what i' ve been saying in my previous posts, several times. XD
The funny thing is that you agree with things that i' ve said, yet in not a single one of your replies you reckoned that. The game that would fit the OP arbitrary criteria better is Halo. And it is far from the first. Here's the exact post to show you im not making any false claims:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=200609424
Refreshment.01 said:
Haha, funny how things turned out. Isn't it? XD
i avoid the problem by calling the pad ones Thumbsticks.
potatohead
Member
So basically the answer is Descent.
Well done everyone.
Well done everyone.
Refreshment.01
Member
i would say yes but...
Have you seen the line of discussion? Just check out my posts XD
Because of a technicality we are not allowed to say Descent.
I admire the attempt to hoist me by my own petard, but once again you're exhibiting the behaviour I described earlier -- you're zeroing in on the OP's secondary reasons for why GoldenEye doesn't count as a valid answer but knowingly ignoring the fact that the primary and absolute reason it's invalid is that the dual analogue configuration isn't the default.
Does Decent support dual analogue as the default control scheme? If so, then it's absolutely a valid answer. I'm not being unreasonable to you by taking you to task on your refusal to address the actual topic, so playing the victim is not going to engender any sympathy. In fact, you're victimising yourself by insisting that ignoring the OP's desired subject because the matter of whether or not a game supports dual analogue by default is "nonsensical" and "unimportant" is perfectly acceptable.
nkarafo
Member
I don't think Descent is the right answer if we count OP's rules. The twin joystick that it supports looks nothing like a dual analog controller. You don't hold it the same way for starters. So even if that scheme is the default, how can it be credited for this when it feels nothing like a FPS as we play them now?
Does it even support that control scheme with a dual shock controller?
Does it even support that control scheme with a dual shock controller?
Refreshment.01
Member
You see JaseC, if you are trying to be fair, you could have easily pointed out the things you disagree with as well as the ones you agree with. But no, it didn't happen, not once. We couldn't risk giving the impression that the other side might have some merit by agreeing with anything of what he is saying.
But on topic. Even JaseC thinks that Halo was the one that standirezed the control scheme. So ask yourself, what did the OP conditioning achieved? Is not helping him to find the truth in the end.
And im just questioning that, i think there's some value in doing that. And if you don't see that way then is ok to disagree, by no means i think you are a fool for doing so. On the contrary. XD
nkarafo
Member
I'm inclined to agree with this. Sure there wasn't a second analog stick but the control scheme was the exact same. You could even use the D-Pad instead of the c-buttons so that there isn't any difference at all. (left thumb - movement, right thumb - aiming, right index - shoot). Just like it is now.
Saying that Halo standardized the control scheme is like ignoring the whole N64 player base who had many FPS games that played like this. Almost all N64 FPS games had this scheme after Turok.
Was the N64 player base so small that we needed Halo for the world to notice the control scheme?
At no point have I said you're absolutely wrong about all things, and me not peppering my posts with random expressions of agreement doesn't insinuate that, either. I apologise if you feel as though I'm going out of my way to discredit you entirely, but I assure you that is not the case.
The OP wanted to know which game was the first to support dual analogue control as the default scheme. That's the "truth" he was seeking. While it's true that the answer may be irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, that is itself the very definition of tangential.
And again, I categorically stated that I wasn't labelling you a fool. Describing an instance of behaviour is not the same thing as condemning a person's character.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
SonicAaron
Member
I read somewhere that South Park was actually the first game to do it?
PetriP-TNT
Member
If you needed a dualshock, it wouldn't even run until you plug one in. Ape Escape was another one that absolutely needed one and this popped up if you plugged in a nondualshock
I think that Ape Escape did work with an Analog controller too if it was in that green analog mode:
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The first one I remember was Timesplitters. Took some serious getting used to. I don't remember it in Goldeneye but I recall it being pretty similar but wasn't it the yellow buttons to look around? Been a while.
nkarafo
Member
South Park on the N64 had the same control scheme as all N64 shooters after Turok.
Mexen
Member
I think this was it?
I am smiling at this for reasons I cannot explain. Oh, wow. I am looking forward to seeing VR mechanics description years from now when what seems novel now will be a standard then. Haha.
Refreshment.01
Member
Well you have to forgive me JaseC, since that's the impression one could easily get. Since your replies are refusals to my posts and you haven't adressed the topic or the OP at any given time.
Let's see... maybe you are confused and think im ignoring the "default" part. He's criteria is wider actually. Apart from been by default, It also involves that "game revolutionized gaming by adopting the control scheme that largely has remained the default one to this day..." and "Standardizing dual analog controls on consoles...
Then he pointed out that Alien Resurrection might be that game. Which is a somewhat misguided conclusion, the game lacked any major influence in the industry and gaming community as far as i know. For example, one of he's refusals to GE was that the dual thumbstick feature was kind of obscure, well i guess the same can be said about Alien as a game.
Again, don't fault me for what the OP is saying himslef. MAybe you are also giving him to much credit about what he exactly wants?
Maybe, a nice thing to do is for him to be more flexible with the criteria or repurpose the original post a bit. However, we haven't exactly heard a single word from him in a while. Hopefully, he returns soon to formulate some type of conclusion as all of this type of threads should have. After all if we are in agreement or not, we are using our time to try to inform him about things.
nkarafo
Member
Indeed, OP makes 2 different questions.
-Which game was the first that had the dual analog sticks control scheme as a default
and
-Which game revolutionized gaming by adopting the control scheme that largely has remained the default one to this day...
The "first game that had dual analog as default" isn't necessarily the "game that revolutionized gaming by adopting the control scheme that largely has remained the default one to this day".
-Which game was the first that had the dual analog sticks control scheme as a default
and
-Which game revolutionized gaming by adopting the control scheme that largely has remained the default one to this day...
The "first game that had dual analog as default" isn't necessarily the "game that revolutionized gaming by adopting the control scheme that largely has remained the default one to this day".
Oh, my mind is very much in the right place. Remember, what truly kicked off our ever-growing back-and-forth is you saying that you didn't take into account the opening line of the OP because he hadn't substantiated why it's important that the game in question support the dual analogue configuration as the default control scheme and specifically the default control scheme, and that's been the point of contention since.
I actually agree that the OP has muddied the waters since his first post. But that's immaterial to our particular dialogue. To reiterate, I took issue with your response to my reply not due to the implicit doubt vis-a-vis the overall relevancy of the OP's question but rather because you were claiming black and blue that the OP didn't actually ask what he thought he'd asked. If you'd instead responded with something along the lines of, say, "I realise GoldenEye doesn't technically fit the criteria, but I feel as though the game that first supported the dual analogue control method as the default isn't important in the grand scheme of things as it's unlikely to have been a factor in the development of later such games", our discussion would have ended then and there (well, I would have replied so as to not give the impression that I ignored your post).
Iorv3th
Member
This depends on what type you are reffering too. Many of the earlier FPS that used 2 sticks had both movement and aim on each stick. Say left stick moved the player forward backward and the aim side to side. The right stick was used to strafe or move the aim up and down. That was very common on the early PS2 I think Timesplitters used it and I know Socom 1 used it. I think red faction may have been one stick for movement one stick for aim.
Refreshment.01
Member
Yes, and that is my stance still. The conditioning doesn't make sense to me hence the "non sensical" qualifier, it seems at odds when you try to find a definitive answer as the OP wants.
Maybe nkarafo did a better job than me explaining it?
nkarafo
Member
Although i agreed to this previously, i'm now skeptical about Halo standardizing it. The scheme was already a standard on the N64 for the duration of it's lifespan. Halo took the same exact scheme but instead of a d-pad/c-buttons the pad had an extra analog.
So what's more important? The actual control scheme or the hardware?
Alex_Mexico
Member
I would really wish for people to stop quoting N64 games as examples of standardizing TWIN STICK FPS CONTROL SCHEMES!
The N64 lacked twin sticks and no amount of mental gymnastics, weird dual wilding controllers that no one used (and weren't even usable in multiplayer... you know, the reason everyone played Goldenye in the first place!), Turok and DK64 examples matter here.
You need a console with twin sticks to argue a game was the first with the modern FPS controls we use today so that rules everything before the PS2/GC/XB with the exception of Dualshock supported PS1 games. I can't believe this is even a point of discussion. Forget the N64
Descent could use a twin-stick control scheme on the original 1994 PC release, if you had two joysticks available. I think it's a worthy footnote along the way from legacy control schemes to modern dual analog.
People are getting way too hung up on the idea that there has to be a single origin point that everyone else copied from when that's clearly not the case.
Turok's "left pad or c-buttons to move, stick to aim" could be considered a pretty clear precursor to the way dual analog control schemes work.
It's like you're asking "WHAT WAS THE FIRST DOG," people are replying with stuff about wolves, the evolution of domesticated dogs, etc. and you're yelling at them saying "NO I WANT THE DOG, SHOW ME THE DOG."
People are getting way too hung up on the idea that there has to be a single origin point that everyone else copied from when that's clearly not the case.
Turok's "left pad or c-buttons to move, stick to aim" could be considered a pretty clear precursor to the way dual analog control schemes work.
It's like you're asking "WHAT WAS THE FIRST DOG," people are replying with stuff about wolves, the evolution of domesticated dogs, etc. and you're yelling at them saying "NO I WANT THE DOG, SHOW ME THE DOG."
Nemesis121
Member
I think this was it?
Amazing how fast everyone adjusted, Halo CE next year..
Alex_Mexico
Member
I'm not familiar with that game but how could it feature twin stick FPS modern controls by default years before Sony released the Dualshock on PS1?
nkarafo
Member
Descent, on PC, supported multiple input devices. You could use whatever combination of keyboard, mouse, and joystick you wanted to control your ship's movement and rotation in all three axes. One of the recommended setups was to use two full-sized joysticks in a way that's similar to the way dual analogs work on a modern controller.
Turok's "left pad or c-buttons to move, stick to aim" could be considered a pretty clear precursor to the way dual analog control schemes work. It's functionally very similar, just digital on the movement axis.
It's like you're asking "WHAT WAS THE FIRST DOG," people are replying with stuff about wolves, the evolution of domesticated dogs, etc. and you're yelling at them saying "NO I WANT THE DOG, SHOW ME THE VERY FIRST DOG."
Refreshment.01
Member
A pleasure to read as must of your posts and i don't say this because i agree in this occasion.
Specially about our obsseisson to always look for the "first" when not always is the most important thing to look for.
BradleyLove
Member
Cos I'm being a dumbass and confusing it with Descent 2 which came out in April 97 and used the Dual Analog controller.
Oops, my bad.
That being said, Descent 1 did support the Analog Joystick and I would argue that's as valid a configuration as using twin N64 pads.
You could use dual analog controls in goldeneye in multiplayer, either 1 v 1 with both players using dual analog, or 1 vs 2 players using normal controls.
You're all over the place. Despite denying in your previous post that you ignored the opening line of the OP, you admit in this post that you did just that, and in the space of two sentences you go from agreeing that you did so because the OP didn't explain why the detail is important to "clarifying" that you did so because it seemed at odds with the rest of the post. If you'd only sit still, we could finally put this discussion to bed.
Refreshment.01
Member
The discussion was put to bed long time ago JaseC. We fully agree about what is actually meaningful about the topic and don't agree about something rather tangential to it.
i sincerely thank you for dedicating me as much as time as you did and apologize to get so much on your nerves even if it wasn't my intention. XD
Now i would really like to hear the conclusion the OP reaches and if he has changed his mind about the games he considers to fullfil his criteria. Certainly we have seen very interesting information and contributions.
Yes, i think it was a 99 game. At least the N64 game was. And yes, it's a safe bet it uses the Dual Shock thumbsticks.
I'm all for agreeing to disagree. Better that than running around in circles.
Apology not accepted... because you didn't get on my nerves.
