Support NeoGAF

[Refreshment.01]

Apology not accepted... because you didn't get on my nerves.

Now guess who is getting on who's nerves.

Thanks for tolerating me. Seriously.

 

[d00d3n]

Golden Eye.

Is just how it is, conditioning the response desn't change it.

Additionally, why is a "twin-stick layout" a significant step in FPS development? Goldeneye and Turok were two of the first console FPS games that supported aiming with an analog stick (movement on c buttons). In Goldeneye, the analog aiming was a central design feature, although the default control scheme used the analog stick both for movement and aiming (by pressing a modifier key). That is the major step in FPS development, right? Having analog movement at the same time as analog aiming does not enhance the FPS experience in any significant way. This feature is still not used in the "premium FPS platform", that is PC, so players don't appear to value it.

 

[Kain]

A little bit offtopic, but if we counted (OP's rules explicitly say we can't, but still) N64, shouldn't Turok come before Goldeneye? I'm seeing a lot of Goldeneye posts but I remember Turok moving with the C buttons and aiming with the stick. Or was that in later iterations? I swear I remember playing Turok 3 with that scheme at least.

Cerebral bore, man, cerebral bore.

 

[JaseC]

Now guess who is getting on who's nerves.

Thanks for tolerating me. Seriously.

Likewise. It can be easy to give in to emotion when butting heads, even on the internet.

 

[Valkyr1983]

Why do people keep mentioning N64? Outside of a bizarre setup in Goldeneye using two controllers that was nowhere near standard or default, the c buttons and dpad don't count.

OP specifically asked for joystick. If the n64 had analog buttons maybe I'd be lenient but anyone who knows anything about analog vs digital knows it's not the same thing?

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Why would Halo be the 'standardizer' here for twin sticks, when it was already the standard for ps2 launch games a year earlier?

I mean, the entire reason the xbox even had twin sticks was sony did it first.

Evolution was basically Goldeneye (2xcontrollers) -> Turok -> Alien Res -> Timesplitters (and other ps2 games).

 

[Hendrick's]

Turok was what I remember being the first game to use right to aim/turn, left to move, regardless of an actual stick being on the left.

 

[93xfan]

The game that forced me to learn dual analog controls was Time Splitters.

Same here. Glad that standard was established by the start of that generation (minus Dreamcast).

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why would Halo be the 'standardizer' here for twin sticks, when it was already the standard for ps2 launch games a year earlier?

I mean, the entire reason the xbox even had twin sticks was sony did it first.

Evolution was basically Goldeneye (2xcontrollers) -> Turok -> Alien Res -> Timesplitters (and other ps2 games).

Possibly because Bungie did a hell of a job refining the controls with overall smoothness, where the other methods felt very 'jumpy' in comparison.

 

[EvB]

Amazing how fast everyone adjusted, Halo CE next year..

Halo nailed it with the feel, the sticky reticule etc

 

[CrashPrime]

Why would Halo be the 'standardizer' here for twin sticks, when it was already the standard for ps2 launch games a year earlier?

I mean, the entire reason the xbox even had twin sticks was sony did it first.

Evolution was basically Goldeneye (2xcontrollers) -> Turok -> Alien Res -> Timesplitters (and other ps2 games).

Because it was the first commercial blockbuster to have the scheme and nobody remotely considered anything else from that point forward.

 

[grandwizard]

Amazing how fast everyone adjusted, Halo CE next year..

People didn't adjust, Bungie just figured out the correct amount of aim assist to make players think they were actually aiming themselves while the computer does the work.

 

[Daft Punk]

You should have added "as default" on the title.

Also the first game that used it hardly caused the "revolution". I'm pretty sure that most people credit Halo for that, even though it's more recent than Alien or (let alone) Goldeneye.

Oh boy here we go again. "Halo was the "true" first game to use analogue! It caused a revolution!"

 

[Refreshment.01]

Additionally, why is a "twin-stick layout" a significant step in FPS development? Goldeneye and Turok were two of the first console FPS games that supported aiming with an analog stick (movement on c buttons). In Goldeneye, the analog aiming was a central design feature, although the default control scheme used the analog stick both for movement and aiming (by pressing a modifier key). That is the major step in FPS development, right? Having analog movement at the same time as analog aiming does not enhance the FPS experience in any significant way. This feature is still not used in the "premium FPS platform", that is PC, so players don't appear to value it.

This could be something interesting to consider. However due to the way the topic is formulated i don't know if it will be welcomed to discuss.

In regards to the importance of actually having analog movement for the character in a FPS, i think i made the observation myself in the thread. The popular opinion is that Mouse/Keyboard is the optimal way to control this genre, yet it does use four digital keys for movement. So maybe the importance of Dual Analog is indeed over valuated.

Pointing out that GE actually did use the analog stcik for aiming in it's basic control scheme seems worthwhile to emphasise since people tend to forget about the fact when discussing the game's control system. The shoulder aiming modifier predates COD Iron Sights button. However, some people consider mentioning this a stretch of terms of been influential to that series.

A little bit offtopic, but if we counted (OP's rules explicitly say we can't, but still) N64, shouldn't Turok come before Goldeneye? I'm seeing a lot of Goldeneye posts but I remember Turok moving with the C buttons and aiming with the stick. Or was that in later iterations? I swear I remember playing Turok 3 with that scheme at least.

You are indeed correct here. Turok 1 came several months before GE and it did used the thumbstick for aiming and the C buttons or Dpad for movement. Really cool that both game support alternative control schemes for players of different dexterities, a nice perk of the N64 controller.

People didn't adjust, Bungie just figured out the correct amount of aim assist to make players think they were actually aiming themselves while the computer does the work.

i just love how bluntly you always point out the fact. But it makes me worry about you because of possible bomb treats XD

 

[Nosgotham]

A little bit offtopic, but if we counted (OP's rules explicitly say we can't, but still) N64, shouldn't Turok come before Goldeneye? I'm seeing a lot of Goldeneye posts but I remember Turok moving with the C buttons and aiming with the stick. Or was that in later iterations? I swear I remember playing Turok 3 with that scheme at least.

Cerebral bore, man, cerebral bore.

yeah turok used c buttons but goldeneye actually had an option to use two controllers, one in each hand, to utilize twin sticks.

 

[deriks]

You can play with two sticks in GoldenEye too

 

[RerezDude]

I did a little review on the PlayStation Dual Analog Joystick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-42wW64Ho

I show off a bunch of games that utilized the dual analog controller prior to the release of the dual shock.

There was also the Ascii Sphere 360 that utilized a ball to move around in free space. While technically not 'dual analog' it preformed the function of both sticks in one control method.

I also happened to do a video on that as well. You will find Forsaken and controller gameplay at 2:28:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9vV0bX5ZAA

 

[Alex_Mexico]

You could use dual analog controls in goldeneye in multiplayer, either 1 v 1 with both players using dual analog, or 1 vs 2 players using normal controls.

You're grasping at straws here. Who in their right mind wielded two N64 controllers when playing multiplayer? Not to mention that that configuration was impossible when you had 4 players!

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Why would Halo be the 'standardizer' here for twin sticks, when it was already the standard for ps2 launch games a year earlier?

I mean, the entire reason the xbox even had twin sticks was sony did it first.

Evolution was basically Goldeneye (2xcontrollers) -> Turok -> Alien Res -> Timesplitters (and other ps2 games).

Did Timesplitters had the twin stick layout where left was forward/backward/strafe and right was look by default? Or did it have by default what we now call Legacy which was closer to Goldeneye where strafe was in the right stick and you'd turn on the left?

 

[Glowsquid]

that seems to be pointlessly restrictive but if I play by that criteria:

-ps2 was the first console with default dual analog controls

-X-Squad was the first TPS released for the console (I think) and has dual analog aiming


-If X-Squad doesn't count due to being a TPS, both Unreal Tournament and Timesplitters were US launch games. So them both I guess.

going back to my post on the first page, I somehow forgot Gungriffon Blaze is a game that exist, and I checked and it predates X-Squad by about two weeks. Granted, GG's controls are southpaw with no option to invert (so right movies and left aims) but it's very much a dual analog control scheme.

 

[Orayn]

Did Timesplitters had the twin stick layout where left was forward/backward/strafe and right was look by default? Or did it have by default what we now call Legacy which was closer to Goldeneye where strafe was in the right stick and you'd turn on the left?

The default control scheme is a "normal" dual analog setup.

 

[DocSeuss]

Additionally, why is a "twin-stick layout" a significant step in FPS development? Goldeneye and Turok were two of the first console FPS games that supported aiming with an analog stick (movement on c buttons). In Goldeneye, the analog aiming was a central design feature, although the default control scheme used the analog stick both for movement and aiming (by pressing a modifier key). That is the major step in FPS development, right? Having analog movement at the same time as analog aiming does not enhance the FPS experience in any significant way. This feature is still not used in the "premium FPS platform", that is PC, so players don't appear to value it.

It's a false start. Twin-stick is the standard, the evolutionary tree from whence everythin came. Using a joystick to aim has been around for a while. Not really Goldeneye's sole origination or anything.

 

[televator]

W-wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait. A. Minute.... You mean to tell me that this whole time you could play Goldeneye while using the analogue sticks of 2 separate controllers?

 

[Cranster]

Why would Halo be the 'standardizer' here for twin sticks, when it was already the standard for ps2 launch games a year earlier?

I mean, the entire reason the xbox even had twin sticks was sony did it first.

Evolution was basically Goldeneye (2xcontrollers) -> Turok -> Alien Res -> Timesplitters (and other ps2 games).

Because as others have stated Bungie perfected it and nobody has looked back since. Bungie also was the very first to succesfully combine it with other mechanics that were either new to the FPS genre, clunky previously or never done before, such as rechargeable shields, golden tripod (throw grenades/use melee without needing to change weapons) and player controllable vehicles.

Halo is arguably the most influential franchise in mainstream gaming in the past 15 years for those reason and others.

 

[rjc571]

Amazing how fast everyone adjusted, Halo CE next year..

Coincidentally it was also the next year that developers started putting auto aim into twin stick shooters to compensate for their lack of accuracy.

EDIT Or this

People didn't adjust, Bungie just figured out the correct amount of aim assist to make players think they were actually aiming themselves while the computer does the work.

 

[nkarafo]

W-wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait. A. Minute.... You mean to tell me that this whole time you could play Goldeneye while using the analogue sticks of 2 separate controllers?

Yes.

Imagine like holding 2 Wii nunchucks.

Oh boy here we go again. "Halo was the "true" first game to use analogue! It caused a revolution!"

Not my words. I don't agree with that statement. I just see that many people believe that and i disagree.

 

[flak57]

Every time this subject comes up, everyone ignores Descent which was released in January 1996. That had traditional dual analog controls.

By comparison, GoldenEye didn't come out until 18 months later. Turok was 14 months later.

Should be noted, it's not the default option though. No idea why I thought that in the other thread. Default is left stick rolls and thrusts, but you can set it to strafe in the control menu.

I don't think Descent is the right answer if we count OP's rules. The twin joystick that it supports looks nothing like a dual analog controller. You don't hold it the same way for starters. So even if that scheme is the default, how can it be credited for this when it feels nothing like a FPS as we play them now?

Does it even support that control scheme with a dual shock controller?

The original PS1 dual analog here -

has a second analog mode (that the dualshock doesn't have), which maps that dual flight stick to the joysticks, which Descent supported.

All of those things were out before Goldeneye (including PS1 Descent 2 as well)

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

I think this was it?

I liked that game and it was the first that I can remember playing that way. I thought It was the best control scheme change back then.

 

[balohna]

What was the first PC FPS with mouse aiming (or really, Y axis control) as a core mechanic?

 

[Glowsquid]

What was the first PC FPS with mouse aiming (or really, Y axis control) as a core mechanic?

paging wikipedia:

Fully 3D first-person games with restricted free look had appeared as early as 1992 on the PC, allowing the player to look up and down, although vision was controlled by dedicated keys rather than the mouse. At the time it was still cutting-edge technology and didn't become widespread until the age of 3D accelerators. For instance, in the 1993 seminal game Doom, it was not possible for the player to angle his or her view up or down, though Raven Software's Heretic, based off the same engine as Doom and released in 1994, added a restricted free look to the engine. Dark Forces released in 1995 and more technologically advanced, featured 3D look but more restricted than the free look of the earlier Ultima Underworld and System Shock, released in 1992 and early 1994 respectively.

Raven Software's November 1994 release CyClones featured a rather primitive implementation of the free look; main movement was via keyboard (with turning and strafing via key combinations), but the on-screen weapon aim point was moved independently via the mouse. Moving the aim point against the edge of the screen would cause the viewpoint to shift up (only temporarily) or to the side (again, haltingly). Unfortunately, this system proved cumbersome and Raven Software did not develop this particular system further. The 1993 DOS version of Bram Stoker's Dracula also used the mouse to aim the player's weapon cross-hair, similar to CyClones, but the player's viewpoint was controlled entirely by the keyboard and did not move with the cross-hair.

The next major step was using the mouse to control the free look. Marathon by Bungie, released in December 1994 for the Apple Macintosh was the first major release to feature the mouse-controlled free look that would later become universal. The first major game for Intel-based PCs to allow mouselook was Descent, it was not the default control mapping, but quickly became the de facto due the game's inherent need to constantly be able to look all three dimensions. The first with full-time fully 3D mouselook by default was Terminator: Future Shock (published by Bethesda Softworks in 1995).[3] However, Terminator: Future Shock did not become very popular and the original Marathon was not available on the PC platform, so their impact was limited. Quake (1996), is widely considered to have been the turning point in making free look the standard,

 

[charsace]

The original medal of honor?

 

[Heavy_D206]

Not a FPS, but the first game to use both sticks (one for movement/one for attack) that I'm aware of is Ape Escape for PS1.

Camera is janky but damn that game was so good.

 

[Fencedude]

You're grasping at straws here. Who in their right mind wielded two N64 controllers when playing multiplayer? Not to mention that that configuration was impossible when you had 4 players!

I routinely BTFO my roommates in college using that configuration.

I'd have people come into the dorm insisting they were GE masters and I trounced every single one of them.

Like, if you didn't know about it, thats on you, but it was 100% the best way to play the game.

 

[Metalmarc]

Alien Resurrection I'd say, and I still struggle with console fps today, still not used to controller over KB/M, mind you I suck at gaming

 

[AHA-Lambda]

First one I remember was Rainbow Six on PS1

 

[jsnepo]

Medal of Honor

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I routinely BTFO my roommates in college using that configuration.

I'd have people come into the dorm insisting they were GE masters and I trounced every single one of them.

Like, if you didn't know about it, thats on you, but it was 100% the best way to play the game.

No it wasn't because it was still weird. The left controller stick had you turning left and right and the right stick had you strafing left and right. It may have been twin sticks but it was still a legacy control that no one uses anymore and there was no way of changing that to a modern configuration.

The best way to play GE and Perfect Dark was with the control pad and analog stick. That was a scheme that mirrored closer to modern configurations with stick to look and left D-pad for movement.

So no. I don't think Goldeneye's dual wilding controllers were the best way of playing it. Especially when that meant getting screwed when waning to play with 3 or 4 players.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

The default control scheme is a "normal" dual analog setup.

That is awesome.

I wish someone had told me Timesplitters was the playable Goldeneye sequel I could play on PS2 back then. It flew completely under my radar. From Perfect Dark in 2000 on N64 the next FPS I played was Halo 1 in 2001 so, for my young impressionable mind, Halo was the one to standardize and popularize the twin stick FPS control scheme but I'm happy to know Timesplitters did it first.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

What was the first PC FPS with mouse aiming (or really, Y axis control) as a core mechanic?

I would say either Ultima Underworld or System Shock (depending on whether or not you qualify the former as an FPS). I'm pretty sure there were FPSs that had y-axis aiming before, although I don't think they were for PC.

I routinely BTFO my roommates in college using that configuration.

I'd have people come into the dorm insisting they were GE masters and I trounced every single one of them.

Like, if you didn't know about it, thats on you, but it was 100% the best way to play the game.

I don't see why this is an argument. When somebody asks "What's the first PC game to use WASD by default," do you say Hovertank 3D? Or a game that actually had it by default like Half Life?

 

[goomba]

whats really sad is the Wii remote plus nunchuck should have set the new standard for console FPS games , far superior to dual analog and doesnt reqire any auto assist.

Though perhaps now with VR here, pointing to shoot will become the new standard.

 

[driver116]

I find it incredibly disrespectful at people saying Halo standardised the layout. And games like Uprising or Alien: R or whichever game was the first doesn't get that accolade.

 

[SMOK3Y]

It took me so long to realise i was inverted as i sucked with 2 sticks wasn't till i was online on Socom that someone said try inverting and well it was heavenly sent changed my gaming forever lol

 

[MrCunningham]

I would say either Ultima Underworld or System Shock (depending on whether or not you qualify the former as an FPS). I'm pretty sure there were FPSs that had y-axis aiming before, although I don't think they were for PC.

Ultima Underworld is a first person dungeon crawler that was brought into full 3D with a polygon engine. It does have mouse free-look, but it wasn't really required to play the game. System Shock does put a little more emphasis on mouse look, but it isn't a feature that was enabled by default. You had to press the E key to enable it. But of course mouse look (or free look)was generally limited to being an optional feature in a lot of early DOS era PC games because there wasn't a guarantee that the user would have a mouse for their system. Mice didn't become a mandatory requirement for PC's until the event of Windows 95.

Marathon is generally regarded as the first FPS with true mouse look, which does make sense since Mac's were always bundled with mice and Marathon was originally made for the Mac. But I have never actually played any of the Marathon games, so I don't really know. By the look of it, Marathon is another sector based engine like Doom and later Duke Nukem 3D. From what I can tell it uses a faked stretching effect to create the illusion of looking up and down (something that the Build engine would use too) but the player can only look at 45 degree angle. But did this game have mouse look by default? and did it require precise aiming? Or was it something like Doom?

Descent is a game that does require full mouse movement because the game does use full 3D environments. But this game did not have mouse control enabled by default either.

 

[nkarafo]

No it wasn't because it was still weird. The left controller stick had you turning left and right and the right stick had you strafing left and right. It may have been twin sticks but it was still a legacy control that no one uses anymore and there was no way of changing that to a modern configuration.

Well, you are wrong.

I don't get it though, why spread this false info when you never tried all the options? Try "2.2 Galore". Or "2.4".

http://goldeneye.wikia.com/wiki/Control_style

You can setup the game so one stick is for walking/strafing and the other for aiming. You can also hold the 2nd controller with your left and the 1st one with your right hand, making it 100% the same like today's shooters. That's how i played the game in 1997. Was the best option.

I wish someone had told me Timesplitters was the playable Goldeneye sequel I could play on PS2 back then. It flew completely under my radar

Seems like a lot of things flew under your radar. I never thought Halo was any special at all after playing FPS games on my N64 for 4 years before Halo even existed.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Ultima Underworld is a first person dungeon crawler that was brought into full 3D with a polygon engine. It does have mouse free-look, but it wasn't really required to play the game. System Shock does put a little more emphasis on mouse look, but it isn't a feature that was enabled by default. You had to press the E key to enable it.

Pretty sure that pressing 'E' in System Shock makes you lean. You're thinking of the mouselook mods, which give it a SS2-style "inventory mode" which is toggled with 'E'.

I read the question as "What was the first PC FPS that had Y-axis control using the mouse," which would, to my knowledge, be System Shock. And it is required to complete the game, since there are, amongst other things, security cameras on the ceilings that must be shot out to progress at some points. But if the question is "What was the first game with mouselook," it's probably Marathon.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

I honestly struggle to remember how I ever managed to play legacy FPS games.

I still to this day remember when I read about using +mlook in Quake, shortly after it came out, and thinking "This is just silly, why would I use the mouse?"

 

[Krejlooc]

You're grasping at straws here. Who in their right mind wielded two N64 controllers when playing multiplayer? Not to mention that that configuration was impossible when you had 4 players!

You said feature x didnt exist in goldeneye

Feature x objectively exists in goldeneye

So you come back with "that doesnt count because a of ridiculous execuse y"

Who is grasping at straws again?

Pretty sure that pressing 'E' in System Shock makes you lean. You're thinking of the mouselook mods, which give it a SS2-style "inventory mode" which is toggled with 'E'.

I read the question as "What was the first PC FPS that had Y-axis control using the mouse," which would, to my knowledge, be System Shock. And it is required to complete the game, since there are, amongst other things, security cameras on the ceilings that must be shot out to progress at some points. But if the question is "What was the first game with mouselook," it's probably Marathon.

Can we count robocop 3 as an fps? 1992 and it had y axis mouse control. Not really mouse look, tho.

 

[nkarafo]

So you come back with "that doesnt count because a of ridiculous execuse y"

Not only that but this "excuse y" wasn't even true.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Can we count robocop 3 as an fps? 1992 and it had y axis mouse control. Not really mouse look, tho.

I haven't played it, but from what I've seen it looks more like you move your crosshair up and down a static screen as opposed to actually being able to look up at the ceiling. Though I guess that does count as y-axis aiming.

 

[Krejlooc]

I haven't played it, but from what I've seen it looks more like you move your crosshair up and down a static screen as opposed to actually being able to look up at the ceiling. Though I guess that does count as y-axis aiming.

Along the same lines, gun busters is undoubtedly the first fps with "wasd" control and independently mouse aim (although wasd was a joystick, and the mouse was a trackball).