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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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aeolist

Banned
My issue is grandstanding and then plugging your ears.
who is doing this though? the people complaining about assholes on twitter are being constantly bombarded by shit. look at zoe quinn's @ replies, every single thing she posts gets some kind of ignorant bile sent her way.

You're willing to write an opinion and make it public, but find people discussing or arguing your opinion to be a hassle? Why bother making your opinion public if you don't want to deal with a public discussion?
because making your tweets public is the default and far easier way to use twitter. having a private account is kind of a pain in the ass.
 

Eidan

Member
because making your tweets public is the default and far easier way to use twitter. having a private account is kind of a pain in the ass.

I'm sorry, I guess I'm just struggling to grasp the issue here. Are we talking about being harassed about your opinion, or a bombardment of opinions about your opinion? I'm just not understanding why someone would write a public opinion without wanting anyone to discuss it. Why even post it?
 
I'm sorry, I guess I'm just struggling to grasp the issue here. Are we talking about being harassed about your opinion, or a bombardment of opinions about your opinion? I'm just not understanding why someone would write a public opinion without wanting anyone to discuss it. Why even post it?

I'm curious but are you familiar with what types of harassment there are & how they work? being mean rather than polite is only a very very minor subcategory of abuse, harassment of questionable behavior.

Not respecting someone's willingness to not participate in individual discussion and continuously bombarding them with "polite" disagreements en mass can function as an intentional or (unintentional) silencing strategy.

Similar issues pop up to the debate strategy known as the "Gish Gallop" where you can literally shit down an opinion (especially a minority opinion) by overloading any voicebox they have with so much disagreement (be it polite or hostile) that it literally renders the communication platform useless to them for voicing an opinion.

As Aeolist rightfully pointed out, when a person like Zoe becomes controversial people start literally doing it to nearly every tweet she posts simply because of who she is.

At that point "not posting an opinion" equals "not posting at all" and a person can be effectively silenced.
 

Nymphae

Banned
who is doing this though?

Anyone who posts an opinion and then does not want to hear any further discussion on it, which you previously said was acceptable. "People [who] just want to express an opinion and move on with their day".

Also, the two people in the comic people are praising. Its essentially two racists who don't want to defend their racism when the object of ridicule hears them and asks politely to discuss the matter.
 
My issue is grandstanding and then plugging your ears.

Twitter is mostly grandstanding. It's millions of people simultaneously shouting "Look how smart and witty I am! It's useful for people or companies looking to plug their stuff.

However, it's an awful tool for conversation. Someone with a big following is going to get too many replies to be able to hold coherent conversations. Plus, the character limit makes it damn near impossible to convey complicated points. If you make a multi-tweet response, you risk having someone take your tweet out of context and then pass it around (which has happened a lot throughout this whole situation).
 
http://wondermark.com/

looks like it's the most recent one, just went up 2 days ago

i'm not sure if the author is aware of this whole thing though

David Malki is the author (@malki on Twitter). There is a little discussion of this on his timeline, and he retweeted Devincf's tweet of the cartoon. He is maintaining an artist's distance and says his cartoons aren't didactic--interpretation is up to the reader.

One tweet tips his view, though:
'"that sea lion wondermark comic points out how the annoying thing I do is actually cool and good" - sea lions on twitter'

He also jokes that he hasn't yet been accused of being part of the conspiracy because "my carefully considered practice of not playing a console game since 2007 is paying off in spades."
 

MacNille

Banned
Anyone who posts an opinion and then does not want to hear any further discussion on it, which you previously said was acceptable. "People [who] just want to express an opinion and move on with their day".

Also, the two people in the comic people are praising. Its essentially two racists who don't want to defend their racism when the object of ridicule hears them and asks politely to discuss the matter.

That is what I took from the comic. Two bigots who are talking shit about someone and when they got confronted with it, they try to ignore it.
 
A public tweet is always an invitation for a civil argument.

Strictly speaking, it's a status update. If you're trying to hold any kind of discussion on Twitter, in my view, you're using it wrong. During this recent fuss I know better than to look at my Twitter reply stream after first noticing that it had filled up with noise-making drones. Anybody who wants to talk to me can easily find my tonysidaway@gmail.com email and write to me.
 

MacNille

Banned
it's not bigotry to talk shit about gamers. this isn't about racism.

If you are talking shit about anyone, be prepare to take the consequence . It doesn't matter if they are gamers or not. Don't talk shit about people and then complain that you get shit for it.
 

Nymphae

Banned
Nobody in this thread has praised the two people lol, there is only talked about how the Sea Lion is annoying.

I didn't say anyone praised those two people. I specifically said the comic, that a few people here seemed to like, though looking back it is only one person here saying they like it. Either way, the comic is garbage. Good illustrations though.

Edit: I see how my quote could have been interpreted to mean "the people in the comic that were being praised", but that isn't what I meant, sorry.
 
If you are talking shit about anyone, be prepare to take the consequence . It doesn't matter if they are gamers or not. Don't talk shit about people and then complain that you get shit for it.
There is a line. If you make a bad comment once, do you deserve to be followed around by it forever and be harassed continuously?
 

zeldablue

Member
If you are talking shit about anyone, be prepare to take the consequence . It doesn't matter if they are gamers or not. Don't talk shit about people and then complain that you get shit for it.

It's a bit different when it's a group of people who tend to go after innocent people online for perceived "corruption."But I understand.

We should be trying to communicate better. Not covering our ears. Though if most of the tweets are harassment...then I suppose it's time to go into blocking mode.
 

MacNille

Banned
There is a line. If you make a bad comment once, do you deserve to be followed around by it forever and be harassed continuously?

As I'm talking about Devin Faraci who is a fucking scumbag and have not apologist for calling gamer worse then ISIS and other awful things, then yes. He deserve it.
 
As I'm talking about Devin Faraci who is a fucking scumbag and have not apologist for calling gamer worse then ISIS and other awful things, then yes. He deserve it.

No one deserves to be harassed. There's no point to doing it, either. It's just going to result in them being even more hostile. Ignore them and move on.
 

tranciful

Member
As I'm talking about Devin Faraci who is a fucking scumbag and have not apologist for calling gamer worse then ISIS and other awful things, then yes. He deserve it.

...you need to chill. I don't agree with his comment, but you're making a huge deal about nothing.
 
Harassment should never be endorsed, you can be critical of someone and/or point out their issues without being forceful.

Stating that harassment is acceptable against one target can easily imply it's acceptable against others.
 

MacNille

Banned
I don't know anything about the guy, how did he doxx people?

Well, he did this:

[picture that contains personal information that I decided to post to NeoGAF to condemn a person posting personal information]

That he did this was very unethical of him and unprofessional. You do NOT leave out personal information about someone if they don't want it.
(yes, I know it is from ED, but it was a highres pic so I took it)
 

aeolist

Banned
Well, he did this:
[IM G]https://images.encyclopediadramatica.es/5/51/Supergg37.png[/IMG]
That he did this was very unethical of him and unprofessional. You do NOT leave out personal information about someone if they don't want it.
(yes, I know it is from ED, but it was a highres pic so I took it)

that email address is from a burner service so i highly doubt the "tipster" used their real name

the guy seems like an asshole and i wouldn't defend those tweets but that's not doxing
 

Eidan

Member
I'm curious but are you familiar with what types of harassment there are & how they work? being mean rather than polite is only a very very minor subcategory of abuse, harassment of questionable behavior.

Not respecting someone's willingness to not participate in individual discussion and continuously bombarding them with "polite" disagreements en mass can function as an intentional or (unintentional) silencing strategy.

Similar issues pop up to the debate strategy known as the "Gish Gallop" where you can literally shit down an opinion (especially a minority opinion) by overloading any voicebox they have with so much disagreement (be it polite or hostile) that it literally renders the communication platform useless to them for voicing an opinion.

As Aeolist rightfully pointed out, when a person like Zoe becomes controversial people start literally doing it to nearly every tweet she posts simply because of who she is.

At that point "not posting an opinion" equals "not posting at all" and a person can be effectively silenced.

Hm, I hear you to a degree. I can definitely see how it can become harassment if people don't respect a person's request to leave them be, or the comments are more a reaction to who the person is than their actual comment.

That said, in that sea lion comic, all I can think of is someone saying "I can deal with most people, but Latinos? I could do without Latinos", and then having the nerve to be incensed when their comment is repeatedly challenged. The comment deserved to be challenged. If the person didn't want to be challenged, they should have kept their comment to themselves.

If I write a tweet saying "Whites are innately racist", why am I posting it? Just to post my opinion? Why? Why there, where I know anyone could, and will, see it. You're posting your opinion on a public social media site because you want people to know. But why would I want people to not react? Why would I expect them not to?
 
This whole movement has really revealed that many gamers don't want games to be art. They pay lip service to it, but in their heart of hearts that is not what they want.

Games have always been art. Tetris is art. Super mario brothers is art. Doom, and quake. Those games are art. When the goal of your game is to 'be art' you've already failed in my opinon. Not saying that was the goal of papers please or gone home, although I loved the former and thought that the latter interesting more conceptually than in practice. it didn't resonate with me, not because I don't like 'art games' but because I found it was trying to hard to 'elevate the medium' have a message' etc instead of just tell a really good story.
 
just because a technology allows you to do something doesn't mean you have the moral authority to do it. harassing someone because of a tweet is what an asshole does.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Games have always been art. Tetris is art. Super mario brothers is art. Doom, and quake. Those games are art. When the goal of your game is to 'be art' you've already failed in my opinon. Not saying that was the goal of papers please or gone home, although I loved the former and thought that the latter interesting more conceptually than in practice. it didn't resonate with me, not because I don't like 'art games' but because I found it was trying to hard to 'elevate the medium' have a message' etc instead of just tell a really good story.

A really good story has a message?
 
Games have always been art. Tetris is art. Super mario brothers is art. Doom, and quake. Those games are art. When the goal of your game is to 'be art' you've already failed in my opinon. Not saying that was the goal of papers please or gone home, although I loved the former and thought that the latter interesting more conceptually than in practice. it didn't resonate with me, not because I don't like 'art games' but because I found it was trying to hard to 'elevate the medium' have a message' etc instead of just tell a really good story.

I'm not sure how you have a really good story without saying anything.
 
As I'm talking about Devin Faraci who is a fucking scumbag and have not apologist for calling gamer worse then ISIS and other awful things, then yes. He deserve it.
That's a pretty popular talking point, but what he actually tweeted was: "I have more respect for ISIS than the anti-Quinn people"
 

Ropaire

Banned
That said, in that sea lion comic, all I can think of is someone saying "I can deal with most people, but Latinos? I could do without Latinos", and then having the nerve to be incensed when their comment is repeatedly challenged. The comment deserved to be challenged. If the person didn't want to be challenged, they should have kept their comment to themselves.

If I write a tweet saying "Whites are innately racist", why am I posting it? Just to post my opinion? Why? Why there, where I know anyone could, and will, see it. You're posting your opinion on a public social media site because you want people to know. But why would I want people to not react? Why would I expect them not to?

You're just taking issue with the contrivance of the set-up in this particular comic, not its overall message. How the sea lion comes to accost the couple is irrelevant, the point is that pedantically requesting a civil debate ad infinitum is not constructive, frequently insidious (as Neorice said), and most importantly - when you actually contextualize the comic in this space - not interchangeable with any sort of bias, but rather a means to put the burden of education and civility once again on the victims of abuse and harassment and create a false equivalence between the crimes of oppression and being rude.
 

zeldablue

Member
Hm, I hear you to a degree. I can definitely see how it can become harassment if people don't respect a person's request to leave them be, or the comments are more a reaction to who the person is than their actual comment.

That said, in that sea lion comic, all I can think of is someone saying "I can deal with most people, but Latinos? I could do without Latinos", and then having the nerve to be incensed when their comment is repeatedly challenged. The comment deserved to be challenged. If the person didn't want to be challenged, they should have kept their comment to themselves.

If I write a tweet saying "Whites are innately racist", why am I posting it? Just to post my opinion? Why? Why there, where I know anyone could, and will, see it. You're posting your opinion on a public social media site because you want people to know. But why would I want people to not react? Why would I expect them not to?

I mean...There are people saying "I could do without SJWs" but there's no huge campaign to attack people for saying that.

Likewise, I don't spend hours out of my day to challenge every racist person, because I don't think anything confrontational could possibly help them.
 
I'm not sure how you have a really good story without saying anything.

Does Italo Calvino's Invisible Cities say anything? It has the form of Marco Polo narrating a sequence of descriptions of cities to Kublai Kahn. Apart from a framing narrative there is no plot, and there is not much in the way of message. I'd nevertheless readily recognise it as a great work of art. Each time I read it, I'm a few years older and the person who reads it is different. Thus the reader takes on the general shape of the novel.
 

Riposte

Member
Games have always been art. Tetris is art. Super mario brothers is art. Doom, and quake. Those games are art. When the goal of your game is to 'be art' you've already failed in my opinon. Not saying that was the goal of papers please or gone home, although I loved the former and thought that the latter interesting more conceptually than in practice. it didn't resonate with me, not because I don't like 'art games' but because I found it was trying to hard to 'elevate the medium' have a message' etc instead of just tell a really good story.

I think I understand where you are coming from, but you are tripping up over the idea of "messages", which in turn allows "art games" the wiggle room to obtain that elevation. Better than to say everything is art, since art is a nonsensical, exploitable term, say everything has a message or, really, as many messages as the viewer can create from all of the stimuli (as it is with everything, man-made or not). It sounds like you have issues over the exclusive pretensions surrounding "having a message" and how that may interfere with how stimulating (i.e., entertaining) the product ultimately is.

also US military propaganda is cool as long as the multiplayer is good.

US military propaganda is cool when the single player is good, also.
 
But I like this comic she retweeted:

FxikD5Y.png

So this private converstation between two people is supposed to represent twitter? Riiiiight. I don't think some people understand how twitter works. You can't just say "I'm going to post my opinion where millions of people can see it but if you disagree, please don't respond".
 

meijiko

Member
I realize now that the comic can be interpreted in several ways, but what I took from it was that the woman was saying she doesn't like sea lions, and then a sea lion comes in and illustrates why she has trouble with them.
 
I mean...There are people saying "I could do without SJWs" but there's no huge campaign to attack people for saying that.

Likewise, I don't spend hours out of my day to challenge every racist person, because I don't think anything confrontational could possibly help them.

That's it. I think you express the problem of Gamergate and all such witch hunts very well.
 
Hm, I hear you to a degree. I can definitely see how it can become harassment if people don't respect a person's request to leave them be, or the comments are a more a reaction to who the person is than their actual comment.

Right, glad you agree so far.

That said, in that sea lion comic, all I can think of is someone saying "I can deal with most people, but Latinos? I could do without Latinos", and then having the nerve to be incensed when their comment is repeatedly challenged. The comment deserved to be challenged. If the person didn't want to be challenged, they should have kept their comment to themselves.

Keep in mind that the comic is an obvious silly hyperbole. The author intentionally put in a Sea Lion to leave the nature of the comment ambiguous.

The problem we arrive at when we discuss "What deserves to be challenged" is extremely vague and so different from person to person that if you don't universally accept that harassment itself is never warranted,

Usually regardless of how defendable a position is, arbitrary limits translate by necessity to the loudest voice deciding the limit on what type of opinion "deserves/demands" challenge. The definition should be wide enough to minimize harassment.

This means you accept that unfortunate or socially unacceptable voices are allowed
to make remarks without concern trolls & mobs absolutely drowning out their ability to enjoy a social platform.
(Mind you that outright hate speech is inherently abusive and can therefore be rightfully reported. I'm not saying it should be tolerated.

If I write a tweet saying "Whites are innately racist", why am I posting it? Just to post my opinion? Why? Why there, where I know anyone could, and will, see it. You're posting your opinion on a public social media site because you want people to know. But why would I want people to not react? Why would I expect them not to?

You're giving a specific example that you wouldn't post yourself, so I'm not gonna discuss that position.

Regardless there are various reasons to post strong opinions:

1. To vent. (some people post tweets to 0 followers, after all.)

2. Maybe you think it's funny.

3. Trolling

4. To say something you know a large segment of your following agrees with.

5. Because you somehow feel it needs to be said.

6. Tweets can be meant to be abusive. (these should be reported, not met with counter-abuse.)

7. Any other reason a person might want to say or write something.

The point is: It's toxic to expect someone to be forced into dialogue in a public space or be disallowed their opinion entirely if they're not willing to engage on the subject. No matter how much you disagree their unwillingness to engage should be respected as a basic right.

The moment what they say clearly enters within the area of hate speech, illegality or abuse however, this should be rightfully counteracted by reporting them through the available means. (and blocking/muting them if it affects you.)
It should not be counteracted by mobbing, abusing, isolating or otherwise alienating the person in question.


----

For clarity I think everyone is absolutely allowed to talk about people's problematic behavior and bring it to light to their audience, but @ing someone constantly to forcefully include them within that criticism (especially en masse) can be extremely problematic regardless of how much you think "They deserve it."
 

Eidan

Member
You're just taking issue with the contrivance of the set-up in this particular comic, not its overall message. How the sea lion comes to accost the couple is irrelevant, the point is that pedantically requesting a civil debate ad infinitum is not constructive, frequently insidious (as Neorice said), and most importantly - when you actually contextualize the comic in this space - not interchangeable with any sort of bias, but rather a means to put the burden of education and civility once again on the victims of abuse and harassment and create a false equivalence between the crimes of oppression and being rude.

I'm not following you here. Can you explain further?
 

Noaloha

Member
The Wondermark comic on the last page reminded me of this from a few weeks ago.

ibtBLR8BW5SbTs.png


The unholy summoning ritual portrayed has nothing specifically to do with #GG; I'm sure this dark spell works with any number of hashtags. Twitter sure is weird. Or, rather perhaps, it's an enabler for weird human behaviour.
 
I'm not following you here. Can you explain further?

The person not willing to engage in conversation (often regardless of what their original view is.)

is considered:

a. rude for not complying

and

b. by necessity implied to have a burden of education. (you shouldn't ever discuss this in public unless you're willing to educate every single person who might overhear it to their heart's content on the subject.)
 

Nymphae

Banned
I realize now that the comic can be interpreted in several ways, but what I took from it was that the woman was saying she doesn't like sea lions, and then a sea lion comes in and illustrates why she has trouble with them.

She says, "I could do without this species", publicly for anyone to hear. The offended species asks why. She yells GO AWAY.

It's a really poor way to illustrate the point they are trying to make I think.
 
Does Italo Calvino's Invisible Cities say anything? It has the form of Marco Polo narrating a sequence of descriptions of cities to Kublai Kahn. Apart from a framing narrative there is no plot, and there is not much in the way of message. I'd nevertheless readily recognise it as a great work of art. Each time I read it, I'm a few years older and the person who reads it is different. Thus the reader takes on the general shape of the novel.

I'd say it has a lot to say. a dying emperor who will never see the the empire he commands and is forced to listen to someone who has the freedom to explore the world.

every story says something. it may not be important or profound or even very good but that's up for the readers/viewers/players to decide.

bringing this back around to the topic of the thread, people who don't want their games to have a message are almost exclusively referring to stories with themes they are uncomfortable with.
 
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