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[Le_Samourai]

People say that Gone Home shouldn't be called Game of the Year, but at the same time, why not? The only reason it shouldn't be GotY is if it's not a game, but it clearly is.

Good idea, great atmosphere, for a while at least, but awful writing, like from a TV daytime movie, I don't think you can even qualify the game play, there isn't any.

Good game, but far from great, and last year there were several great games.

 

[etrain911]

But what's really the difference between a game an an interactive art piece? Win/loss states? A score? Killing enemies?

Really, the problem is that gaming isn't used to highly artistic games. In the movie industry it's a given that there are two types of movies, the Oscar bait that some people enjoy, and the mass-market movies that go for the broadest demographic. The problem is the critics in the game industry have always given their praise to the mass-market broad games, but now there's the split developing.

See? The bolded are all really great questions worth discussing, although I'm certain no one would come to a definitive conclusion. It really is an exciting time to be a gamer right now, in my opinion. We're witnessing a lot of new genres and games emerge without seeing a massive drop in quality in the old stand-bys. Hell, some genres like the Metroidvania genre are experiencing more of a revival and a renaissance.

 

[scytheavatar]

People say that Gone Home shouldn't be called Game of the Year, but at the same time, why not? The only reason it shouldn't be GotY is if it's not a game, but it clearly is.

Because it's released on the same year as The Stanley Parable, The Wolf Among Us and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons, all of which are clearly superior?

 

[ibyea]

The atheist community, at least the vocal part, has made self-victimization and persecution their daily routine. It's not at all dissimilar from the gamergate nonsense.

Not so much the vocal part as it is the part that likes to pretend they are 100% logical and rational when they aren't, and don't know what the heck they are talking about in certain issues. And when other atheists criticize them for it, they whine that they are being persecuted and that they were just being rational when they weren't. Richard Dawkins recently melodramatically compared those criticism to moving our society closer to 1984.

Not to mention there is a huge diversity problem, and the big name atheists aren't making it easier, trying to trivialize sexual assault in conferences and by one of the speakers.

 

[Firestorm]

Because it's released on the same year as The Stanley Parable, The Wolf Among Us and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons, all of which are clearly superior?

I forgot people have to enjoy the same things to the same degree relative to one another.

 

[Cyrano]

Lack of content, lack of replayability, lack of gameplay, did nothing really special on the story telling front, Money/value (20$ for a 3 hour game without any replayability).

I enjoyed the game (got on sale for 5$), but compared to a game like Stanley Parable, Gone home is really not GOTY material. It was mostly going room to room and listen and read everything and the pay out was not that good. They did a good job on the creepyness factor, where you expect seeing a corpse in every room you go in with the suble clues, but outside of that, I really do not see how somebody can consider it a GOTY.

Read this: http://midnightresistance.co.uk/articles/game-design-always-political-im-not-even-exaggerating-here

The whole money/value argument is a deeply problematic and flawed way of looking at entertainment.

Gone Home reminds me a lot of A House in California, either of which could be a Game of the Year candidate to a certain group of people looking for something different in their games. I did like The Stanley Parable more, but for different reasons than what I think made Gone Home special. I don't generally like ranking games in such a flat, list-y manner, but people who demand content tend to prefer it that way (mostly for purposes of spurring debate rather than actual interest in ranking, I suspect).

 

[charlequin]

Extremists are everywhere and in all camps. Most people seem to forget that. There is no "Group" hivemind what ever the group is.

Group dynamics are real. "Movements" and other organizations united by shared goals have very, very different profiles in terms of how well-organized, considered, or ethical their behavior is based on the cause they're pursuing and the makeup of the group. Gamergate is, across the board, a particularly poor example on all these fronts -- its efforts have consistently been half-assed and it's continued to provide cover for misogynist harassment from day one onward.

"There are extremists in every camp" is straight-up false equivalence of the "Nazis: Right.... or Wrong?" school and, in a topic like this where the level of "extremism" on display in different groups is so wildly different, makes it very difficult to take anything you say on the subject seriously.

Amazing Atheist, ugh. These people are making all of us atheists look bad.

Atheists are about four or five years ahead of gamers on the "nutty misogynist wing making everyone else in the broader group look awful" train, sadly.

 

[Sneds]

Pretty much everything in that video has been debunked weeks ago. It's the Slowpoke version of angry MRA rants about the subject.

It's impossible for me to take seriously anyone who uses the term SJW unironicallly.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I forgot people have to enjoy the same things to the same degree relative to one another.

Uh, when deciding a GotY, yeah, kinda...? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here...?

 

[Mael]

I'm starting to understand why atheists are so wholly hated in the US...

 

[Widge]

I find this incredibly weird, because if I were to name some "SJW" websites, The Escapist would be probably one of the first (just remember how Jim Sterling criticized Ubisoft for the excuses they gave for not allowing female PC in one of their games, or Irrational/2K for removing Elizabeth from the cover of Bioshock Infinite?

Indeed. As I say, your stance cannot be anything other than completely in favour of every single thing that GamerGate dredges up. Say anything to the contrary (in this case, Jim said the entire GameJournos thing wasn't a big deal) and you're immediately attacked. No longer valid. A poor source. Not facts. The whole caboodle.

People just want stuff to burn.

I mean look at this guy. He just wants places taken down because (effectively) he doesn't like what they say. Regardless of the fact that he will take his traffic elsewhere, PEOPLE MUST PAY FOR FEELINGS.

https://twitter.com/randomfox/status/513977870671421440

This is a prominent avatar that I repeatedly see in the stream. There are plenty of the same ilk that are there over and over again. And yet it all boils down to a quest for justice and what is right if you press any of them. "those bad guys don't represent us" - hello. You are the bad guys.

 

[boogie2988]

Indeed. As I say, your stance cannot be anything other than completely in favour of every single thing that GamerGate dredges up. Say anything to the contrary (in this case, Jim said the entire GameJournos thing wasn't a big deal) and you're immediately attacked. No longer valid. A poor source. Not facts. The whole caboodle.

People just want stuff to burn.

I mean look at this guy. He just wants places taken down because (effectively) he doesn't like what they say. Regardless of the fact that he will take his traffic elsewhere, PEOPLE MUST PAY FOR FEELINGS.

https://twitter.com/randomfox/status/513977870671421440

This is a prominent avatar that I repeatedly see in the stream. There are plenty of the same ilk that are there over and over again. And yet it all boils down to a quest for justice and what is right if you press any of them. "those bad guys don't represent us" - hello. You are the bad guys.

You're right in that some people just want to watch stuff burn. That community is SEVERELY fragmented. there are certainly some that are just for the 'lulz', and others who think the only way to fix this is to burn it down to rebuild.

The majority are just gamers who like video games though, but over time, those people seem to be backing out leaving only the fragmented base behind.

continually terrified that this is gonna get way weirder, and way worse, once the moderates back out and all that's left is the fringe folks who just like causing havoc.

or to put it in 4chan speak
> be an internet troll
> getting muh lulz from harassing folks
> internet gamergate movement begins
> guyfulks.jpg
> start harassing innocent internet girl
> pretend i'm part of movement
> lol they're mad too
> gamergate starts dying down
> milk it for all its worth
> mfw i torture people and have it all blamed on neckbeards

 

[SZips]

https://twitter.com/randomfox/status/513977870671421440

This is a prominent avatar that I repeatedly see in the stream. There are plenty of the same ilk that are there over and over again. And yet it all boils down to a quest for justice and what is right if you press any of them. "those bad guys don't represent us" - hello. You are the bad guys.

That's the same sad sack that, the other night, harassed one of my favorite LP'ers on Twitter so much that it pushed her to make her Tweets private out of fear.

 

[Widge]

I've stepped back and have had conversations with a great many whose viewpoints I don't share whatsoever on the topic of games and, yes, that is there. We all do love games. I think the actions being spurred outside of pure games is not helpful.

Oh I don't doubt some are lulz, some are definitely nasty trolls... god knows who sent that needle to Milo but there are some fucked up individuals out there. Bomb threats, stalkerish behaviour (I remember you saying about you getting loads of restaurant invites).

I bet that under all this, there are some people who just want to terrorise and the banner of pro/anti-gamergate is just convenient. Their chance to show power, meaning, over the lives of others.

 

[Widge]

That's the same sad sack that, the other night, harassed one of my favorite LP'ers on Twitter so much that it pushed her to make her Tweets private out of fear.

Once you haunt the stream enough, you get to seen a core of main activists within it.

 

[tonysidaway]

Atheists are about four or five years ahead of gamers on the "nutty misogynist wing making everyone else in the broader group look awful" train, sadly.

True, though Gamergate hasn't been matched yet for vicious behaviour in large numbers. Perhaps because atheism doesn't have the numbers.

 

[tonysidaway]

continually terrified that this is gonna get way weirder, and way worse, once the moderates back out and all that's left is the fringe folks who just like causing havoc.

I've noticed that there's now a lot more "vast feminist conspiracy" tin foil hat stuff going on, which I personally interpret as a good sign. They'll tend to alienate remaining support and, by themselves, they're fairly harmless. I want to tell myself the worst is now over, and I'm watching the metrics for signs of that.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

True, though Gamergate hasn't been matched yet for vicious behaviour in large numbers. Perhaps because atheism doesn't have the numbers.

This might have to do with atheism barely having any recognisable female feminists to begin with.

Rebecca Watson's about the only "big" feminist name within the skeptic community and she got plenty of death & rape threats once Richard Dawkins wrote an angry public letter complaining about her.

I want to say the big thing is that due to the small number of feminists within their YT community they largely succeeded at driving anyone they disagrees with out of their bubble*. (Which is essentially what a large subset of #gamergate seems to wish to do as well.)

(*I actually think this might be part of the reason so many atheists seem to attack feminists on totally unrelated issues like gaming, the core community effectively succeeded at in-group policing so they're essentially playing the same game in different areas as well now.)

 

[tonysidaway]

This might have to do with atheism barely having any recognisable female feminists to begin with.

Well there are enough for CFI to have organised three consecutive Women in Secularism conferences so far. Female attendance at TAM has been reported as over 40%. The push back has sometimes been quite vehement, and typically reaches to the highest level in the movement (celebrities like Dawkins, and top functionaries). But we're making progress.

 

[TheHollowNight]

People say that Gone Home shouldn't be called Game of the Year, but at the same time, why not? The only reason it shouldn't be GotY is if it's not a game, but it clearly is.

It has very much of it's DNA rooted in traditional game design & is presented via the medium of video games. It's a game! It's personally a very silly question to me as a designer myself, but definitely an intriguing one, worth exploring and deconstructing.

Steve Gaynor, the main developer of Gone Home, did just that, with a very interesting GDC talk 'Why is Gone Home a Game?'

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020376/Why-Is-Gone-Home-a

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Well there are enough for CFI to have organised three consecutive Women in Secularism conferences so far. Female attendance at TAM has been reported as over 40%. The push back has sometimes been quite vehement, and typically reaches to the highest level in the movement (celebrities like Dawkins, and top functionaries). But we're making progress.

I'm mostly referring to the particularly loud subcommunity of "new atheism",
I do realise the general secular movement is quite different from that part.

 

[Smurf]

GG's "concerns" over journalistic integrity have amounted to very little of substance. They're throwing out a lot of wild accusations with very little evidence or coherent reasoning to back them up.

The indiecade panel and collaborative google group were certainly of substance with regards journalistic integrity.

 

[tonysidaway]

I'm mostly referring to the particularly loud subcommunity of "new atheism",
I do realise the general secular movement is quite different from that part.

Well this is getting a little off topic, but most of the younger feminists in the movement are "new atheists" in the sense that their decision to come out as atheists was typically inspired by Dawkins' activism. I'll leave it there.

 

[Mman235]

That's bullshit. Sterling panned Fist of the North Star: Ken's Rage 2, and rightly so, as it was a terrible game compared to its predecessor. The idea that because one likes a series, one is able and willing to accept any piece of crap as long as it has the 'Warriors' label is ridiculous and condescending.

Yeah the idea that a genre fan is less discerning is mostly ridiculous. There are occasional blind genre fanboys who'll laud any shit that gets thrown at them, but for the most part genre fans are more discerning, as they've seen both the best and worst of a genre, and are able to properly contextualise the design of whatever game in the genre they're reviewing.

People say that Gone Home shouldn't be called Game of the Year, but at the same time, why not? The only reason it shouldn't be GotY is if it's not a game, but it clearly is.

The whole "is X a game?" discussion feels kind of like Gamergate in a sense; there are potentially interesting discussions about what classifies as a game-like how there are potentially interesting discussions about corruption in Game Journalism-but, while not inherently toxic like Gamergate, so much of the discussion was spearheaded by bigots who are doing it purely so "SJW games" don't get recognition it's hard to separate them from people who actually want legitimate discussion about it.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I find it weird that people would be into how some AAA games like the original Bioshock (mostly) convey their plot and world-building would be against a game built around that sort of storytelling to the point where they'd argue it's not even a game. Especially when there have been a ton of story-focused games this generation which have been very light on the interactive-elements that didn't generate the same sort of controversy Gone Home did. Ironically I really like the 'game' part of Gone Home; it's just the plot I think is fairly generic as far as actual love stories go and is indicative more of a stagnating industry in terms of story themes and tropes when it's considered 'daring'. I agree the initial high price for a two hour game was a valid debate point, it's just a shame it got wrapped up in dumber criticisms of the game.

 

[call_kotaku]

According to Gamergate, gaming journalists simultaneously irrelevant to consumers but should also be under the utmost scrutiny because of how much responsibility they have to their audience. Just like how they are simultaneously incompetent and lazy, but also capable of hatching ridiculously complex conspiracies for miniscule gains.

Using journalists as a justification for all this ridiculousness is stretching pretty thin for me

 

[tonysidaway]

The whole "is X a game?" discussion feels kind of like Gamergate in a sense; there are potentially interesting discussions about what classifies as a game-like how there are potentially interesting discussions about corruption in Game Journalism-but, while not inherently toxic like Gamergate, so much of the discussion was spearheaded by bigots who are doing it purely so "SJW games" don't get recognition it's hard to separate them from people who actually want legitimate discussion about it.

Reminds me of an incredibly surreal discussion I had the other day with someone who was adamant that Depression Quest could not be a game, but combined that certainty with an abject inability to explain why. It was a polite enough discussion, but I left with the impression that something unspoken was going on.

https://plus.google.com/105473622219622697310/posts/6ExPDDK1PhR

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Hey Boogie, I thought you stopped being part of gamergate?

Spoiler

sorry, lol.

 

[chaosaeon]

Looks like the Amazing Athiest made a video about Zoe Quinn today, and it is shockingly horrible. Before anyone tries to pretend that this guy is sane and a good person to have on your side, it should be prefaced with the fact he says things like "Rape isn't fatal. So imagine my indignation when I saw a chatroom called "Rape Survivors." Is this supposed to impress me? Someone fucked you when you didn't want to be fucked and you're amazed that you survived? Unless he used a chainsaw instead of his dick, what's the big deal? ... The word survivor applies to people who are alive after being stabbed 73 times with an ice pick or mauled by rabid wolverines, not to a woman who gets dick when she doesn't want it. Just because you got raped, you have to rape the English language? You vindictive bitch! Also, don't you ever get tired of being the victim? How many failed relationships are you going to blame on a single violation of your personal space?"

So he's basically belittling people who have been raped by saying there are worse things that could've happened ? How can you try that train of thinking ... as if physical pain is real and other kinds are not, so people are just being dramatic ? That's like telling someone who just lost a husband/wife that it's all in their head and just "get over it" because the death didn't happen to you. This train of thought from him speaks an extreme lack of comprehension and understanding.

 

[The Technomancer]

Looks like the Amazing Athiest made a video about Zoe Quinn today, and it is shockingly horrible. Before anyone tries to pretend that this guy is sane and a good person to have on your side, it should be prefaced with the fact he says things like "Rape isn't fatal. So imagine my indignation when I saw a chatroom called "Rape Survivors." Is this supposed to impress me? Someone fucked you when you didn't want to be fucked and you're amazed that you survived? Unless he used a chainsaw instead of his dick, what's the big deal? ... The word survivor applies to people who are alive after being stabbed 73 times with an ice pick or mauled by rabid wolverines, not to a woman who gets dick when she doesn't want it. Just because you got raped, you have to rape the English language? You vindictive bitch! Also, don't you ever get tired of being the victim? How many failed relationships are you going to blame on a single violation of your personal space?"

I felt a little sick reading that. My cousin was raped a few months ago, she's been incredibly public with the friends and family about how horrifying it was and the aftermath continues to be while she tries to get justice, and "survivor" is absolutely an apt term

 

[Orniletter]

Edit: Sorry for the derail. Ignore.

 

[Mumei]

Looks like the Amazing Athiest made a video about Zoe Quinn today, and it is shockingly horrible. Before anyone tries to pretend that this guy is sane and a good person to have on your side, it should be prefaced with the fact he says things like "Rape isn't fatal. So imagine my indignation when I saw a chatroom called "Rape Survivors." Is this supposed to impress me? Someone fucked you when you didn't want to be fucked and you're amazed that you survived? Unless he used a chainsaw instead of his dick, what's the big deal? ... The word survivor applies to people who are alive after being stabbed 73 times with an ice pick or mauled by rabid wolverines, not to a woman who gets dick when she doesn't want it. Just because you got raped, you have to rape the English language? You vindictive bitch! Also, don't you ever get tired of being the victim? How many failed relationships are you going to blame on a single violation of your personal space?"

But really, what could he say that would surprise you at this point?

 

[Widge]

Had to have a chuckle.

 

[Harlock]

And now we have editors from IGN and Joystiq talking bad about Totalbiscuit. So juice!

 

[partyphone]

And now we have editors from IGN and Joystiq talking bad about Totalbiscuit. So juice!

you can't post this and not provide links!

 

[Neoriceisgood]

But really, what could he say that would surprise you at this point?

Ah yeah that's the meltdown I mentioned earlier. /:

 

[Kaervas]

So after this I assume gaming journalism has lost all of its value as a source of information about games?

Since there is no integrity, where can I get my gaming info now?

 

[Fari]

Amazing Atheist is a disgusting human being in virtually every way.

you can't post this and not provide links!

Here. The tension between gaming journalists and Youtube personalities has been well known for quite some time now though.

 

[FlyinJ]

So after this I assume gaming journalism has lost all of its value as a source of information about games?

Since there is no integrity, where can I get my gaming info now?

No, don't worry, all the big sites (Gamespot, IGN) are good and corruption-free according to GamerGate.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Please don't post any posts from a private mailing list to the outside world without permission, remember how people posted out of context stuff from JournoList to make it seem like a left wing conspiracy?

CONDE NAST ELITE ENEMY KYLE ORLAND PRIDES SELF ON HIDING SECRET LEFT WING CONSPIRACY CABAL FROM OUTSIDE WORLD

There's nothing really going on here, what are they talking about? Why are these people attacking me?

SHOCKING WIDESPREAD DENIAL THAT THERE IS CORRUPTION IN GAMING JOURNALISM

I have had personal dealings with some of the self-proclaimed angry YouTubers that can be rough because some can be really abrasive, try not to get involved with that

INSULTS ABOUND AT ALL HONEST GOD-FEARING AMERICAN YOUTUBERS, SALT OF THE EARTH

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

So after this I assume gaming journalism has lost all of its value as a source of information about games?

Since there is no integrity, where can I get my gaming info now?

You could get it from youtubers, who actually do all the things GGers accuse journalists of doing! You could get it from GAF, where people create [OT]s that use as much of the product's marketing slogans and imagery as possible! (I'm mostly thinking of the iOS 8 thread over in OT as an example) You could get it from such impartial sources as the Nintendo Direct or the Treehouse!

 

[Kaervas]

Another thing, what does feminism and mysogyny have to do with videogames?

I've just started reading on this and apparently a developer slept with some journalist so they would give positive reviews about her game.

This whole thing is a clusterfuck of misinformation and bait click articles. Dunno what to believe.

 

[Mael]

You could get it from youtubers, who actually do all the things GGers accuse journalists of doing! You could get it from GAF, where people create [OT]s that use as much of the product's marketing slogans and imagery as possible! (I'm mostly thinking of the iOS 8 thread over in OT as an example) You could get it from such impartial sources as the Nintendo Direct or the Treehouse!

Well to be fair I'd say that getting stuffs directly from the producers (Nintendo, Sony, Konami...) over random youtubers because really at least you know the people are paid for the ads instead of trying to pass like they're some random duded when they're actually undercover paid shills.

Another thing, what does feminism and mysogyny have to do with videogames?

I've just started reading on this and apparently a developer slept with some journalist so they would give positive reviews about her game.

This whole thing is a clusterfuck of misinformation and bait click articles. Dunno what to believe.

It's so funny that it always start with this.

 

[The Technomancer]

Another thing, what does feminism and mysogyny have to do with videogames?

I've just started reading on this and apparently a developer slept with some journalist so they would give positive reviews about her game.

This whole thing is a clusterfuck of misinformation and bait click articles. Dunno what to believe.

No, she didn't. That was a completely misleading story, since a.)they didn't become involved until after he covered her game and b.) his "coverage" of her game involved mentioning it in a longer list of titles he had found interesting

As for what feminism and misogyny have to do with video games, well, the mass video game market has been long dominated by games that depict women in various flavors of objectifying, sexualizing, or just plain dismissive lights. Not to mention all of the harassement women in the industry face both from fans and players and from co-workers.

 

[robovanburen]

Amazing Atheist is a disgusting human being in virtually every way.



Here. The tension between gaming journalists and Youtube personalities has been well known for quite some time now though.

For people that (understandably) don't want to read Breitbart, here are the relevant quotes:

In a thread sarcastically titled, "The time TotalBiscuit told on me," Dan Stapleton, reviews editor at IGN, says: "I have some experience picking fights with egotistical YouTube personalities who label themselves as ill-tempered in some fashion. Not something I recommend."
Susan Arendt, managing editor of Joystiq, adds: "TotalBiscuit has an insanely thin skin. Speaking from personal experience."

Milo, master of context that he is, doesn't mention that the forum thread's title comes from a blog post by BioShock Infinite designer Shawn Elliott. The blog post talks about how TB told Elliott's employer that he had badmouthed him on Twitter.

 

[nrvalleytime]

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...noPros-we-reveal-every-journalist-on-the-list

What a ridiculous, ridiculous article.

"Here! Let's publish an article with names of people in gaming journalism because we assume they don't talk to each other! You know, they all cover the same things and want exclusives to put the other people out of business, but healthy journalistic discussion amidst peers can only mean one thing - ILLUMINATI"

I am sickened by this article. Many of the people here have proven again and again to be excellent journalists, even if some have written a piece of promotional schmooze once or twice in the past.

 

[Kaervas]

No, she didn't. That was a completely misleading story, since a.)they didn't become involved until after he covered her game and b.) his "coverage" of her game involved mentioning it in a longer list of titles he had found interesting

As for what feminism and misogyny have to do with video games, well, the mass video game market has been long dominated by games that depict women in various flavors of objectifying, sexualizing, or just plain dismissive lights. Not to mention all of the harassement women in the industry face both from fans and players and from co-workers.

According to the sources I'm reading the statement is that she did indeed sleep with him and others in order to garner favorable reviews.

Regarding your secon paragraph, that is a joke, right?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Another thing, what does feminism and mysogyny have to do with videogames?

I've just started reading on this and apparently a developer slept with some journalist so they would give positive reviews about her game.

This whole thing is a clusterfuck of misinformation and bait click articles. Dunno what to believe.

There's literally a wikipedia article summarising the whole #GG thing.
Unless you buy into the notion that "evil feminists have taken over wikipedia" that's a good place to get up to speed.

According to the sources I'm reading the statement is that she did indeed sleep with him and others in order to garner favorable reviews.

Regarding your secon paragraph, that is a joke, right?

Just so you're aware, this subject is extremely conspiratorial and due to that a lot of misinformation is being spread. It'll be healthy to specify your sources and keep the conspiratorial elements in mind if you're interested in this subject.

 

[Mael]

According to the sources I'm reading the statement is that she did indeed sleep with him and others in order to garner favorable reviews.

Regarding your secon paragraph, that is a joke, right?

And what kind of sources are they?

 

[The Technomancer]

According to the sources I'm reading the statement is that she did indeed sleep with him and others in order to garner favorable reviews.

Regarding your secon paragraph, that is a joke, right?

What sources are those?

And why do you consider it a joke?