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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
- Thread starter besada
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Neoriceisgood
Member
Labels are perfectly healthy as long as you understand when to apply them and what limits they impose.
I never dismiss a person simply on label alone but they function amazingly as a quick hand to understand what views someone "happily" connect themselves to as a person.
If a thread is filled with arguments you disagree with, just engage them in a civil manner. I don't think it's at all helpful to begin speculating what movements posters may or may not be affiliated with.
GamerGate wasn't mentioned until you did it. I'll ask again if you can keep GG out of other threads, it's up to you if you oblige or not.
Rambaldi47
Banned
OK. Quick question: What the fuck is SJW?
Also. What the fuck is GamerGate? Saw it mentioned for the first time on Twitter when a former member of parliament retweeted a bunch of messages the other day. I still can't quite make out what's going on? Some woman being threatened by a Baldwin or something?
Also. What the fuck is GamerGate? Saw it mentioned for the first time on Twitter when a former member of parliament retweeted a bunch of messages the other day. I still can't quite make out what's going on? Some woman being threatened by a Baldwin or something?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
There is a wiki article on the fiasco (I believe under the heading 'gamergate controversy'). It may be a starting point but I can't say for sure how good it will be. I'm sure there are bunch of links sourced in it that you can crawl out from. Additionally you can read through this entire thread and find many external posts as well. Wish I could actually offer you a synopsis but like I said, everything will be heavily opinionated and extremely bias which a journalist should attempt to avoid.
Of course but games are serious business for some, I guess.
Dead Early
Banned
I asked you if it's better for a journalist to remain objective instead of dragging his feelings into the matter, and you said:"Yes, because I agree with him."
Sounds pretty self centered to me.
Do you? What value does someone else's opinion have? I'm trying to, as I said, make an informed decision.
And as for your second point, why on earth would I go to a source designed to influence me into purchasing the product for unbiased information?
tonysidaway
Member
Two I would recommend are Wikipedia and Vox, both of which are regularly updated:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy
http://www.vox.com/2014/9/6/6111065/gamergate-explained-everybody-fighting
Devolution
Member
I think the issue is you get even more of that dismissive, obtuse trollish crap. Engaging in pleasantries with people who are already trying to throw all kinds of irrelevance and fallacies everywhere is a fools errand.
The irony is if it was serious and not immature buffoonery, they'd recognize that criticisms elevate art forms. At some point it really is just people crying over the idea of vocal criticism of bikini clad one dimensional characters.
Neoriceisgood
Member
1. that is not what you asked.
2. that is not what I answered.
Are you really gonna play this game?
LaserBuddha
Member
When you say leave it out, do you mean don't use it as an adjective to describe the tone of a position (rather than describe a person) while also making a factual argument against that position, which is what I did, or do you mean just straight up accusing people of being in #GG and using that dismiss their position outright, which is what you tried to paint it as?
faceless007
Member
You are fundamentally misunderstanding the purpose and intent of what a review of an artistic product is and for some reason are conflating it with journalistic objectivity.
Here are some objective reviews for you, are these what you're looking for?
If I read a book review, I don't want the review to end at "the font choice was nice, there were very few plot holes, and there were almost no grammatical errors." If the reviewer thinks that the characters are completely unrealistic and the story is borderline racist, I want to hear that. Because it definitely affects whether or not I want to read it.
If a game has really sexist undertones or embarrassing portrayals of women, that'll definitely affect whether or not I want to play it.
If a game has really sexist undertones or embarrassing portrayals of women, that'll definitely affect whether or not I want to play it.
Show me a single review from any publication about any media (games, film, music, literature, anything) that is devoid of opinion.
Even something like "I like the graphics" or "the shooting feels nice" is opinion.
Reviews are opinions.
What you are asking for is a list of features and technical specs. That's what you will get from press releases. If you want to know whether the reviewer thought the features worked well or were implemented well, that's opinion.
RicoTheMad
Banned
I would argue that you are proving my point exactly.
More_Badass
Member
Coming into a thread and going "Ban me!", then acting like they're martyrs for the cause when they are banned, isn't much making a statement as it is being an idiot
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Uuuuh... I think you have a pretty weird understanding of what is "objective" and "subjective". A game review is by definition "subjective". This is what your ideal "objective" review looks like: http://www.destructoid.com/100-objective-review-final-fantasy-xiii-179178.phtml
it's not always a journalist's job to provide reviews but video game journalism is so short-staffed, comparatively new and niche that you see writers bearing many different responsibilities.
if you read a film, literature or music review, they're not just going to talk about the product in such a quantified manner. legitimate film reviews don't grade by sub-categories and then provide an average score. book reviews aren't just judging the grammatical proficiency and bind quality of a book. music reviews certainly don't fixate on chops or musical prowess. that would be the emptiest, blandest criticism and virtually no one would read it.
It's more fear than anything. The likelihood of Kamiya changing his characters is pretty small and any changes other designers make, they wont miss. If they care enough, they'll be running around in Elder Scrolls 6 with a nude mod anyway.
Either of those would be fine if it wasn't mentioned.
Dead Early
Banned
Yeah, probably.
While I'm well aware that there is now no hope for this conversation to go anywhere, I'm curious. What, in your own words, did I ask?
faceless007
Member
Well it just got buried on the last page but I suspect Objective Game Reviews are what he's looking for.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I have no idea what point I'm proving.
If someone goes oh I'm an "x", that's a quick communication tool. I find this useful.
This wasn't a question but a statement, so I didn't react to this.
I don't consider game grading objective or useful so I find this irrelevant baggage to your question.
I answered this question specifying why I found it relevant as a consumer. You didn't specify a review so I have no idea why you assume I automatically agree with this hypothetical reviewer.
(If you want better answers don't ask loaded questions btw.)
VibratingDonkey
Member
I approve of this idea. First of all it's a sane, harmless tactic. And secondly it would mean you can't run into these people online.
Dudes spite purchasing bayonetta 2 as a "fuck you to corrupt journalists" when the game has damn near universal acclaim. What?
Ssshhhh.
tonysidaway
Member
How does that work, exactly? Are you looking for a review that contains only facts? "The game runs at 60fps, it took this reviewer 16 hours over four days to complete using the standard PS3 controller and a 40" diagonal HDTV in a darkened room. Toilet breaks are facilitated by a simple pause mechanism."
I mean, an objective review of a game would be incredibly useless.
That's not what you asked and that's not what anyone said.
Regardless, video game reviews are by there very nature subjective, the only thing not is the technical specs like resolution and frame rate. Frankly I want a reviewer to 'drag their personal opinions into the matter' because I want to know if they enjoyed it or not and why. It's sort of the point, whether I agree with them or not. I don't agree with some about the sexual objectification of the character of Bayonetta, but I understand why they'd mention it even if I disagree. Same goes for if someone says they don't like a specific game mechanic that I do like.
Yes, a couple of juniors committed account suicide. Unsurprisingly, we've attracted many juniors who appear to be joining solely to come into this thread.
The reason why #gg is an ignorant movement is the things they care passionately about are characterized by how little they know about the topic.
The intial outrage was about zoey quinn and how she was using sex to control people. Most adults with healthy sex lives would view that claim as ridiculous. You have yo lack information on how the sexual dynamic between men and women work to accept that. Implies most of them are young and clueless about the dynamic.
The concern about interpersonal relationships affecting careers, exposure, or success is also an ignorant one. If you are a professional you know they can matter more than other skills and talents. Outrage over it implies the vast majority in #gg aren't professionals.
The extreme reactions to what amounts to being slightly embarassed by some articles implies they are very sheltered and this may be the worst thing they've experienced so far.
I could go on and on for hours but in general almost everything that defines #gg can only come from profound and often willful ignorance.
Dead Early
Banned
Perhaps "objective" was the wrong word to use.
What I meant, was that reviewers should be more concerned with adequately communicating if the reader would enjoy the game, as opposed to their own feelings on the matter.
What I meant, was that reviewers should be more concerned with adequately communicating if the reader would enjoy the game, as opposed to their own feelings on the matter.
Devolution
Member
Would a reader enjoy the game if the women are just one dimensional sex toys? Because some wouldn't. And it's good to know.
I don't even think you have a clue what you're arguing here.
Content is always under review.
It's incredibly hilarious to me that people want games to be taken seriously but don't want the criticism that comes with every other art form in existence.
How do they know that the reader might not share those same feelings and also have the same reaction, and if so wouldn't that be in that readers interest to have opinion in the review to either see if that would affect their purchasing decision or to ignore if they decided it wouldn't change their mind?
TheBryanJZX90
Member
It's pretty much impossible to accurately do that. I don't know how someone else would react nearly as well as I know how I myself have actually reacted.
Neoriceisgood
Member
So rather than a reviewer playing a game for themselves and basing the score off of their own experiences they should use a statistical analysis of the enjoyment experienced by their readers?
Because by that logic there's not a single reviewer that fits your criteria.
faceless007
Member
As a reader, I agree with that review of Batman: Arkham City, and that aspect of the game hampered my enjoyment of it. The reviewer thus did as you said.
What now?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
How do you propose they do that without injecting any of their opinion?
Jim Sterling
Member
I write a review based on my experience, not based on Axl Rose's experience.
Unless game reviewers are each provided with a working Cerebro unit, that we might tap into the brains of every potential reader and cater our reviews to their exact standards, we're stuck with the limited human capacity to only really know what we feel about a videogame while we're playing it.
You're basically saying, "Tell me what I think of this game." Why even bother with reviews then? Just buy whatever you want, and then you'll actually know what you think. You don't need a reviewer for that.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Not every consumer wants the same thing from a product. Different reviewers have different perspectives. There's no need for objective reviews. Obviously, it might happen sometimes where a game is probably reviewed by the wrong person. For instance, there was that IGN review years back where a game called Worldwide Soccer Manager 2009 was given a score of something like 2/10 because the reviewer could not fathom why anyone would want to play such a game instead of something like FIFA or Pro Evo. While I stop short of saying any review is "wrong," that's about as good of an example as any for arguing why sometimes a publication may have picked the wrong reviewer to critique the product.
Obviously, this could conceivably apply to political agendas. If someone has a pro-feminist stance and gives every game that seeks to appeal to feminists a 10/10 and every other game a 1/10, that ostensibly doesn't make for very good reviews. One needs to try and separate their own personal values and politics at least a little from their assessment of the game. To phrase it as succinctly as I possibly can, I think a reviewer does need to try and play a game on its own terms.
However, there's a reason why a wide array of people all do the same thing. Aside from the fact that different publications are all trying to make money and conceding "the other place reviewed it first so we'll just link their review" doesn't generate pageviews, sites like Metacritic or Rotten Tomatoes show that people value seeing the opinions of multiple people, even if only to quickly arrive at what the consensus is. And if we want multiple opinions, we have to value what unique talents and insight they bring to the table. An "informative" review where we just reference "the facts" will not generate interesting criticism. It's silly to think that there's a "right" approach to writing a review.
Now, that doesn't mean that some things shouldn't be regarded as more important than others. But even with things like the role of story in a game, there is no clear consumer consensus as to how important competent narrative is in gaming. Some people assert that they just mash start to skip over this nonsense on the way to playing the hardest difficulty and getting all the achievements, some people play on easy because their main interest is in the story. And on that front, one's perspective about what a character like Bayonetta represents is obviously going to factor into their enjoyment of the title.
I think all you can do is just be earnest about what you liked/didn't like. I mean, I won't think highly of a review if it seems clear that their opinion was formed from a kneejerk reaction to the Bayonetta character with no desire to try and budge at all while playing the game. But if you gave it the college try and the sexualized content affected the experience, I would expect that to come through in the review. As a reader of that review, it then becomes my right to decide whether that is relevant to my experience. Maybe I love sexy female leads and that person's review docking it for the artistic content only makes me more excited to play it. That's perfectly fine as well.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Okay. So enjoyment or lack of enjoyment for that reviewer can't come from the story, the characters, the way they are represented, etc.?
Enjoyment of a game is highly subjective; while you might only be interested in the controls, graphics, multiplayer, etc., some people might find more enjoyment in the game's setting, the tone of the story, the dialogues, etc.
Just because you personally don't care about, for example, women representation in a game, doesn't mean nobody does. If a reviewer talks about, it obviously means he personally cared about it. You don't have to agree with him or his vision of the game, but that's how reviews are written. There are hundreds of game reviewers out there, you can surely find one that aligns with your personal tastes.
And that is what they do.
The reviewer can't read your mind. And every reader comes at it from a different perspective. So the best thing they can do is tell you how they felt so you can make an informed decision based on whether or not you agree with their feelings and explanation for those feelings.
The sexualization of Bayonetta or whatever may not affected your enjoyment, but it does for others. Not every review is for everyone. The subject matter and depiction of characters and story elements in a game are open to criticism.
What if you are a parent who regularly plays video games with your young children? Would you not appreciate knowing the subject matter and depictions in a game?
It is selfish to expect every reviewer to only talk about what you want them to talk about.
tonysidaway
Member
How would they know what the reader thought? The reader can know about the reviewer and take their opinion into account. The reviewer is writing for _everybody_, so does not have the luxury of tailoring the review.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Some people really don't like Anthony Burch's twitter antics. I have to agree that he's pretty obnoxious, but it wouldn't stop me from buying this game.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Is GAF not doing account activation waves for new people anymore?
Devolution
Member
It's almost like there's a ton of reviews/reviewers/types of reviews at your disposal so you, yourself can figure out who has your interests and priorities in mind and be sure to follow up with those people? There is no shortage of gaming review sites and youtubes dude.
You find a reviewer that reviews games close to your tastes and opinions and use that as a metric for if you'll potentially enjoy something.
Wow, that's very difficult!
wow! someone else had this great idea!
Dead Early
Banned
Again, what you're describing can't really be nailed down, and will vary from person to person. If I were reviewing a game with strong sexual content, it'd probably be reflected as such, but I wouldn't use such judging language.
As an aside, I can't think of much media with "one dimensional sex toys" outside of pornography and examples in which the trope was used to humorous effect, but someone would probably disagree pretty strongly on that.
We are. No doubt you will notice many new juniors around the place.
Your avatar actually is a medium that routinely has this problem. I say this as a pretty big anime fan.
Devolution
Member
Why wouldn't a review/reviewer utilize language to convey how receptive/unreceptive they are to concepts and portrayals within a game?
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