phantomspiker
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Excellent read! Jeff is an awesome dude.
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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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Excellent read! Jeff is an awesome dude.
FF Seraphim
Member
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Given that the monologue in the trailer sounds like it was written by a #GG/MRA/TRPer I would say they timed it perfectly in attempt to ride the coattails of high emotion.
Been a long time since I played Catherine but I don't recall it being too egregious, not counting the fan service.
Though Catherine may not have pushed my buttons since it portrays Vincent as a loser as well.
Stories with negative portrayals of people/gender/race are acceptable to a degree if they don't put the stereotypical white man on a pedestal while denigrating everyone else.
That's why I like to use Lolita as a reference to things like this.
EdibleKnife
Member
Sure. But that's not her problem either. She never calls out the people who enjoy it bad people or the people who make it. All she does is state an opinion. Someone rational would leave it at that. People who've had their own games called out have responded rationally. The people who get up on their haunches shouting that she's trying to censor things aren't thinking rationally and she can't really make them think rationally either.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
The hardest part is ignoring them.
Uh.... I don't really think GG... or even most MRA stuff is this violently nihilistic. I don't like these movements either, but lets not lump everything into the same "Mass murder everyone in the world" boat...
Messofanego
Banned
Haha this is great.Operation confront them on what they'll actually stand behind is going rather well. There's certainly enough stuff they won't deny that you can take them to task for.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I am now requesting to be TweetBros with Plagarize.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
So? If they choose to be defensive crybabies, that's on them.
I think Catherine is a good example of why Anita is very careful to not imply that these tropes need to just go away completely. Yes, the game has some questionable things in it and its important to understand what those things are and why they are questionable, but the game has that content for a reason and actually ends up justifying itself by the end.
Games like Red Dead Redemption and Watch_Dogs don't do that in any meaningful fashion, and they should totally be scrutinized for using such content as cheap shortcuts to make a point.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Well considering the latest #GG controversy is about mass murder....
Red Dead does it specifically because "tying women to a rail road" is an old ass trope. Now, whether or not it is encouraging or mocking it....
FF Seraphim
Member
I honestly think them being from Poland they are not too caught up on #GG since it seems to be more of a US/UK media type of thing.
Yeah! Everyone is extremely unlikeable in Catherine. So it feels fine to me!
(Scary butt monster thing was too much for me tho.)
Yeah, I tend to give games like Silent Hill 2, Catherine and others like it a fair pass because the games actually revolve around perceptions of women. Those games are literally about sexism...which is a GOOD thing! I love those games.
The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks targeted a young female audience for the DS crowd. That game also deals with the flaws of benevolent sexism. It's interesting seeing Zelda change throughout the game as she realizes she's not just a princess.
There aren't that many games that straight up talk about sexism, but they exist!
I guess we have different opinions here. Because I don't think that all of her criticizers are just a lost cause. A more constructive approach would reach those.
Well the thing is, I thought the way the prostitute was shown in a side story of Red Dead Redemption made her already more than background decoration. In that instance I'd like to know what she would have done different or better. It just feels at times like a spellcheck that tells you that a word is wrong but also doesn't tell you how to spell it right.
Maybe. I'm just saying that showing more positive examples would make the video series better.
endless dave
Member
Man, can you really imagine being so upset that a favorite author of yours GASP has mentioned feminist language and GASP knows feminist that you won't even buy their book. I can't even begin to wrap my head around that
Which is pretty unfair considering their evidence is a t-shirt and the fact that one of the guys has skulls on his facebook page. Making a stand against it by not buying the product is one thing, but there are some people who are looking to turn that thing into a full on witch hunt.
So it feels like Grammar check. Sometimes giving you plenty of options on what you should do, but none of them sound quite right.
Todd in The Shadows made a storify on GamerGate. He continues to be my favorite music critic at TGWTG.
https://storify.com/ShadowTodd/why-i-do-not-believe-that-gamergate-actually-conde
https://storify.com/ShadowTodd/why-i-do-not-believe-that-gamergate-actually-conde
I'm thinking more about some of the other things that the game does regarding women.
The railroad thing is almost sort of but not really defendable because of it obviously being an old ass joke.
Honestly, the joke would be a lot funnier if the cheevo had you do it to some mustache twirling villain in a role reversal.
We've just been clicking block a lot.
Jeff's letter speaks to how I feel on the whole issue. Gamergate as a reprisal of dismissive attitudes towards women, indies and imagined conspiracies that have been brewing for years seemed so transparent and misguided from the start that engaging with it felt like giving it respect that it didn't deserve. I understand wanting to use silence as a weapon, even if there's folks that might misconstrue that action as complacency or acceptance.
I've tried to ignore this thread and file the whole ordeal under "nonsense" but recently it's been harder to do so. Almost surreal that the campaign has continued and if anything has gotten even more petulant, political and desperate as it's increasingly marginalized. I would never want to push someone who felt like they had little of substance to contribute to the conversation to take a stand, but seeing folks in that position do so makes me feel like it might be time to be more aggressive in pushing back as well. Too much hatred, hypocrisy and regressive goals that fly in the face of an actual conversation of ethical behavior not to.
I've tried to ignore this thread and file the whole ordeal under "nonsense" but recently it's been harder to do so. Almost surreal that the campaign has continued and if anything has gotten even more petulant, political and desperate as it's increasingly marginalized. I would never want to push someone who felt like they had little of substance to contribute to the conversation to take a stand, but seeing folks in that position do so makes me feel like it might be time to be more aggressive in pushing back as well. Too much hatred, hypocrisy and regressive goals that fly in the face of an actual conversation of ethical behavior not to.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
I never do! I'm crazy and try to comment back.
Yeah! Everyone is extremely unlikeable in Catherine. So it feels fine to me!
(Scary butt monster thing was too much for me tho.)
It's not really as much that everyone's unlikeable. It's more that everyone's lives are going wrong in some way so there is no character really that gets to have it better than others.
Riposte
Member
I agree, for the most part, but I don't think every argument made against her reasoning has been fallacious. Sarkseesian's interpretation is not the one true one, especially in instances where she is connecting the vague, optional possibilities based on the various complex mechanics of an interactive environment to make a definitive point. However, I do think people should follow your advice. Those are discussions I'm more interested in.
I believe criticism can exist for different purposes and hold different priorities, and thus could be deserving of different considerations and responses.
Your idea of QTE criticism is fully concerned with one's personal experience with the game - it's a judgment of taste. Now, don't think I'm saying distaste for this or that concept involving female characters can't be taste-based or "personal", that would be directly contradictory to criticisms of games I've made myself in the past. Perhaps we can fairly say Gies was practicing this in his Bayonetta 2 review. While I wouldn't say I'm "fine" with anything that man has written, I think it is unacceptable that people can't accept that. Even if that's not the case, like he just wanted to make a "statement", it wouldn't justify attempts to hurt Polygon (hypocritically so, in the case of GamerGate).
While it isn't as pronounced in the Tropes videos, Sarkeesian is often instead making judgments on a wider scale, more often than not focused on the effects outside the personal experience. Right or wrong, that alone makes it different in nature, so it is not unreasonable to treat them differently. I don't think it is feasible to say anyone is saying QTEs are negatively affecting anything aside from their personal reaction to the game.
In some cases I believe she is instead making a moral judgment. That the issues she has are powered by a moral impetus. This approach I've found is more common in in her previous videos and her commentary outside of the trope videos. Her ultimate goal (inherently tied to the ultimate goal of feminism) can more or less summed up as creating new norms, challenging the old ones. We can interpret this as only positive (videogames become more inclusive), but I don't think it's outside the realm of reason for people to be concerned with the idea the games (or more to the point: aspects in those games) they like could be considered misogynistic and shamed as a norm (if they moral implications are true, then this is even the most morally acceptable outcome). It only makes sense that they should challenge that.
While I really do want to think and tell myself Women vs. Tropes is about making developers ask questions about their design choices, I do find myself doubting its intentions time to time. At least, the things outside it make me question it, like the discussions following their release. They feature reasoning that can come off as deceptive even. Such as Ri'Orius pointed out, "we don't want to take away/shame your games" because it's okay to like material with "problematic aspects" - but the whole contention is over the "problematic aspects" in the first place, that's just side-stepping the issue in an amicable fashion.
This becomes troubling as things become more polarized (and Sarkeesian as person becomes more and more central to the idea of feminism/sexism in games), thanks in part due to disastrous actions of those who make up GamerGate. Underlying everything I said above, is that I'm annoyed I'm more or less forced to discuss this in the context of people who can't make reasonable arguments and instead attempt to kill means of argumentation through toxic means; that I'm effectively on their side in some people's eyes.
To be fair, I was pretty bummed out when I found out that Orson Scott Card was a douchebag.
Edit: Bah, beaten.
Messofanego
Banned
Funnily enough, that GamerGater is taking the absolute right path they should all be taking. If you disagree that much with someone's views, simply don't engage with their output.
From that I get the same vibe from a post many pages ago from I think it was MHWilliams and a bit from boogie's messages as well, insofar that there are people who write/are part of the games media who have been trying to cultivate increased standards for their profession and culture for years now and now there's this hate crusade that's flying under the banner of 'Game Journalistic Ethics' that's really about silencing criticism that they don't like. And there's nothing that can be done about it. They don't really have any goals or want a discussion, they want to mess with people and chase them out.
It's gotta be depressing to spend a lot of time trying to create this environment and instead have it be spun into this toxic thing that goes no where and hurts your friends.
endless dave
Member
well I specifically meant the feminist side of things. I totally get cutting out a author/director/etc because of their views.
like "uck this guy wants women to be equal and has friends who feel the same way and he is mulling over the idea of dominant cultures sometimes inappropriately taking minority culture. HE IS DEAD TO ME"
it's just nonsense
I'm more curious about this Polska Liga Obrony thing the article mentions. Not being from anywhere near Poland, I know nothing about it. The article linked abou the group is pretty gross.
ipukespiders
Member
WWE was ahead of the game with this one.
Poor Danny Bryan.
WWE was way ahead of Red Dead Redemption (2010) with their No Way Out 2012 PPV?
Didn't know this site. Seems like a pretty comprehensive summary of everything
I don't think it's reasonable to treat Anita's videos that way at all.
I could make the video not personal: "Quicktime events made games objectively worse and developers who do it are shit." -- this still doesn't make me the Jack Thompson of QuickTime events (it would make me a bit of an jerk for saying it like that.)
For example Brianna Wu is much less mild in her criticism than Anita, she's practically the gamergate Devil, and finds Bayonetta empowering rather than sexist. That's cool, whatever, even women, even women feminists talking about games, can disagree.
FF Seraphim
Member
Yeah when it comes to people like OSC, it is hard to justify buying his products due to the fact you are helping him get more money that he can use to spread his views...
It is hard to take an amoral approach to the issue because you (not you specify but you the general) are indirectly helping to support him.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I think this part of Jeff's statement kind of sucks:
I think most of Gamespot's statement kind of sucks.
I used this analogy before, but there's a reason just "Death threats are bad" isn't going to make Gamergaters suddenly realize they're in a wrong group, because they don't think death threats come from Gamergate. They are in total denial of what the movement is actually doing. It's like teaching a mixture of Amish people and people pretending to be Amish for agenda-driven reasons about the dangers of drunk driving - the entire crowd will simply go "That doesn't really apply to me" outloud and go on doing what they do.
I think most of Gamespot's statement kind of sucks.
I used this analogy before, but there's a reason just "Death threats are bad" isn't going to make Gamergaters suddenly realize they're in a wrong group, because they don't think death threats come from Gamergate. They are in total denial of what the movement is actually doing. It's like teaching a mixture of Amish people and people pretending to be Amish for agenda-driven reasons about the dangers of drunk driving - the entire crowd will simply go "That doesn't really apply to me" outloud and go on doing what they do.
Messofanego
Banned
Neoriceisgood
Member
Well RDR essentially combined background decoration + the damsel in distress trope in one, no?
The issue with these types of tropes is that generally speaking their biggest issue is sheer quantity of use x lack of alternatives.
for example, take the damsel trope:
dude rescuing a damsel = regressive.
dude and/or damsel rescuing a damsel = already far less bad due to the fact that within the story's context there's apparently also an awesome playable lady.
dude/damsel rescuing a dude/damsel depending on who the character picks = much better as well, as it just feels like the secondary "character" gets kidnapped, not just "the girl".
This is why 3D world's seen as inclusive/a positive example despite the fact that you're still saving kidnapped ladies. The context changes the trope.
With the prostitute tropes I'm not entirely sure what the point of them is to begin with though, so it's trickier to just shake a solution out of my sleeve.
I stand corrected, the sequel should have playable AJ Lee though.
very seriously doubt they're related in any way. it's a game that's been in the making for a while i'm sure. but wow, the level of violence in that trailer is wild. it reminds me of that game some time back where it's primary gimmick was the over the top violence. postal 2 i believe.
Well what is that exactly? As long as it's not death threats or harassment (which Giantbomb/Gamespot both condemn) they can do whatever they want I guess. I mean if they keep it to silly boycotts no one would care.
BlastProcessing
Member
Very well said.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Because it still is death threats and harassment. They just shield their movement from whoever does it by claiming non-association.
It's also an attempt at wielding editorial control by harassing advertisers to pull ads from any site they don't like. It's an organized effort to get writers fired for "being SJWs." There's a lot more wrong than if 10,000 people are threatening people with one voice, it's the 10,000 voices that worry me more.
The weird thing to me is that Gibson's politics were never hard to discern if you paid any attention, like Besada mentioned. To be fair though, I got pretty bummed as a teenager when I found out that Johnny Ramone was a staunch conservative. But hey, at least Joey sang.
Yeah, this whole GG thing is really... sad. God forbid feminists (or anyone) question the problems in the videogame community. I'm just failing to see what possible harm could come from inclusiveness; wouldn't that make games more interesting and innovative?
EdibleKnife
Member
I don't think they're a lost cause but the reality of the situation is that there is always someone with an issue. It's not her job to baby her audience. She can't choose how people react to her message, people do that of their own volition. People have their own lives where they can learn to listen to others without flying off the handle. She has stated the purpose of her videos and if people still view it as an attack, that's their issue.
The 'Mann explicitly weighs in.
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/letter-from-the-editor-10-17-2014/1100-5049/
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/letter-from-the-editor-10-17-2014/1100-5049/
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