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[Yrael]

Which sounds more like he's talking about friends and associates telling him that Gamergating is not a good look.

Certainly we saw plenty of the latter type of reply when he posted on GAF about the issue. A lot of people suggested that he might not want to associate with the movement given how it started. I hope he didn't interpret those responses as a mafia-style "nice reputation you got here, would be a shame if anything happened to it." Because I don't think they were intended that way.

In any case, I'm sorry to hear that he's feeling threatened.

Yeah, I feel the same way - I really hope that no-one's actually threatened him. From the looks of that maybe it was just that he was feeling under pressure from a lot of people talking to him all at once. I contacted him a while back (not about his use of the GG hashtag because I didn't really want to get into that, but just to explain about CHSommers' views in particular), but then I ended up sending him another message after to give my sympathies to him when I saw what he'd posted about anxiety and depression, because it looked like he could do with some emotional support. It seemed like he was under a lot of stress, and I know how it feels to suffer from that; it's absolutely horrid.

(I'd personally rather the focus on Boogie stopped for basically that reason...taking him at his word about his anxiety, it looks like he's got too much of it to deal with, and I think that more focus on him could potentially just end up adding to it and creating more bad feeling, even if it's unintended.)

 

[charlequin]

If you're interested in 4chan's structure and "culture" then this is a pretty interesting read http://thathomestar.tumblr.com/post/96949686337/faceless-together

I'm never sure how many people understand what it is or isn't 4chan. I get the impression the person who wrote this is a native, but it isn't *too* self-serving.

There certainly is some insight there, but the original poster sees far too much of the positive side of things without considering the negatives. Yes, it's very true that 4chan is heavily populated by people who have a radical belief in the power of anonymity, and it's somewhat understandable why such people would consider it threatening to insert real-world identity into things.

But the whole reason this works in the first place is because 4chan is actually a pretty homogeneous community underneath the layer of anonymity. Anonymity is great for protecting people against in-group fights and the kind of status struggles that many people in the 4chan demographic hate in real life. But it also creates its own type of cultural standards -- and in 4chan's case, those standards are built around glorifying homophobia, sexism, rape, harassment, and all kinds of other lousy things.

Or look at this part:

Imagine how the rest of the internet looks to someone who is used to that as their background, though. It causes the person to develop a certain distrust. If someone publicly supports a position and a large group praises and rewards them for it, you wonder if they really believe what they profess. When someone publicly attacks and uses social leverage against a person who disagrees with them, you wonder if the attacker really has a decent argument that could stand on its own.

It's understandable how that could evolve from a culture of radical anonymity -- but it is also outrageously maladaptive. People can't actually live perfectly anonymous lives out on the internet 24/7; they have to deal with real people in their daily lives. The kind of distrust described here is the foundation of extreme paranoia and conspiracy nuttery; it makes you mistrust totally normal interactions and draw conclusions that are entirely unsupported by the facts. Which, indeed, is exactly what's happened with #gamergate -- widespread paranoia and non-factual conclusions.

Boogie represents maybe an archetype of this whole movement. Here's a man who admittedly went through very tough time growing up. Tough time with women, tough time with males in school who didn't allow him to fit in. All very sympathetic stuff. And immediately when he hears some people are insulting - in his mind - what it means to be a gamer, the little piece of territory he has carved out for himself in this world... he goes on the defensive.

This is basically what happened with Mike Krahulik too, except that by virtue of being far more influential, and actually kind of an asshole at a fundamental level, Mike was able to do actual damage.

 

[Zabi]

What I think is strange about this whole ordeal is that #GamerGate is supposed to promote a form of goodness in the gaming community and yet I've never seen the internet hate machine as fired up as it is now. All the threatening and such going around is insane.

 

[Amir0x]

What I think is strange about this whole ordeal is that #GamerGate is supposed to promote a form of goodness in the gaming community and yet I've never seen the internet hate machine as fired up as it is now. All the threatening and such going around is insane.

To me this is another good incidental piece of evidence for my whole theory. This is something very personal to many of these #gamergate folk, due to likely a weighted history with their own sorts of persecution. In making it so personal, some are willing to actually lash out and become their own worst nightmare - the bullies, in this case - without even realizing it half the time.

It's a real shame too. Everybody on neoGAF knows how large of a vocal critic I am for gaming journalists, often leading the charge. I've debated with many prominent figures within the game journalism set, and tried to pin them to the wall on things such as corruption in the past.

And yet, I have not and will never support #gamergate. I want this to be clear since I've never made a definitive post on this score. But if someone as vocally critical as me is refusing to join this, that should tell people something. I may not be worth much, but I am worth my reputation as a ceaseless critic of the entire industry.

This is basically what happened with Mike Krahulik too, except that by virtue of being far more influential, and actually kind of an asshole at a fundamental level, Mike was able to do actual damage.

That's actually a really good comparison. I almost hesitate to ask, but have those two at PA commented on #gamergate at all?

 

[Cyrano]

I don't think people would have any issues with 4chan if it wasn't constantly used to hurt people in real ways. As Tim Wise has said, "Stuff doesn't just happen. Things get done by people, to people." Anything else is coming from a position of extraordinary privilege.

 

[JDSN]

I felt kinda shitty for some on the last few posts I made to Boogie and I felt relieved that he decided to get out of the controversy since it was clear he failed to understand it and he was taking it too personal and misrepresenting the criticism thrown at his way.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of cognitive dissonance about talking about how everyone should be nice to each other and all opinions count while giving voice to a movement fueled by hate and insecurity, I know that deep down he felt he was helping people that reminded him of him, saw as victims and even tried briefly make them get their shit together, but the ignorant and ultimately callous way in which he discussed with "the opposition" showed me that he saw all things as an attack, so he choose to fight this strawman boogieman he himself and many other created.

I still doubt that 4chan message was him, the guy knows better than going full Baldwin.

 

[Amir0x]

I felt kinda shitty for some on the last few posts I made to Boogie and I felt relieved that he decided to get out of the controversy since it was clear he failed to understand it and he was taking it too personal and misrepresenting the criticism thrown at his way.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of cognitive dissonance about talking about how everyone should be nice to each other and all opinions count while giving voice to a movement fueled by hate and insecurity, I know that deep down he felt he was helping people that reminded him of him, saw as victims and even tried briefly make them get their shit together, but the ignorant and ultimately callous way in which he discussed with "the opposition" showed me that he saw all things as an attack, so he choose to fight this strawman boogieman he himself and many other created.

I still doubt that 4chan message was him, the guy knows better than going full Baldwin.

Some of it seems to be reworded versions of his blogpost here. And he did have that tweet. I think it may be him. But either way, just his blog post suggests a bit of persecution complex, so...

 

[shacklesmcgee]

Some of it seems to be reworded versions of his blogpost here. And he did have that tweet. I think it may be him. But either way, just his blog post suggests a bit of persecution complex, so...

I would be shocked somebody could be so twofaced, but the tweet is really hard to excuse.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

SWTOR lead designer Damion Schubert on #Gamergate protecting developers' artistic freedom.

Yes that blog summed it up very nicely for me. I dont know about anybody but sometimes i do feel like people who are responsible for the biggest games in the industry are also the smartest in the room sometimes.

 

[Ponn]

Coming to see boogie's other side, and the now thinly-veiled persecution complex, it's clear that he's a pretty good example of the line of cause and effect that leads a gamer to join something like this whole "cause."

Boogie represents maybe an archetype of this whole movement. Here's a man who admittedly went through very tough time growing up. Tough time with women, tough time with males in school who didn't allow him to fit in. All very sympathetic stuff. And immediately when he hears some people are insulting - in his mind - what it means to be a gamer, the little piece of territory he has carved out for himself in this world... he goes on the defensive.

It's at this exact moment the disconnect arrives. Because it's here that he is invested blindly with a desire to stop any future persecution, any echos of the memories of times past, and he ignores the rational calls to disconnect from this specific cause due to its factually hateful/misogynistic origins because his desire to lash out against anyone who would change the "traditional gaming hierarchy" is all overpowering.

Now he's turned it into he's being persecuted into trying to disconnect from a movement he believes in, that he's being chased on neoGAF to do something he doesn't think is right, when he doesn't realize he's causing more harm to his hobby by supporting this hashtag, and that it's polluting any reasonable motivations that may have been there.

It's a vicious circle. The cycle just begins anew.

I hope boogie takes a long, hard look at all this, steps back, and begins to ask himself who he really wants to be after all this.

I agree with how this played out and how this is how it ended up for some but I would say there is alot of personal responsibility in that as well. When all this started I was defensive just as you described about how the gaming "journalist" were suddenly attacking the term gamer and very publicly trying to shame it and bury it into the ground. That was before this whole hash tag nonsense started though. I never jumped on to the Gamergate bullshit because I could see the agenda being played out there and I could make a rational decision to not be a part of it. It was very possible to disagree with the way the gaming media handled the situation without resorting to supporting a polluted hash tag that enabled the same harassment people were speaking out about in the first place. if your argument was you didn't want gamer's to be ostracized as misogynists or harasser's then it made no point, to me at least, to tie yourself to this hash tag campaign. That's my personal problem with anything agenda driven is the tunnel vision that can happen to people which causes no room for discourse. Exactly like what we have seen happen with all this. My two cents anyways.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yes that blog summed it up very nicely for me. I dont know about anybody but sometimes i do feel like people who are responsible for the biggest games in the industry are also the smartest in the room sometimes.

That's the thing. I can't think of a single dev who has actually said that they found the work of Sarkeesian or whatever other social critic to be an attack or an act of censorship against them. They know full well that they possess the power to listen to or ignore these critics however they like. All of the outcry is from players who are scared that developers might listen to the critics

 

[Shingro]

There certainly is some insight there, but the original poster sees far too much of the positive side of things without considering the negatives. Yes, it's very true that 4chan is heavily populated by people who have a radical belief in the power of anonymity, and it's somewhat understandable why such people would consider it threatening to insert real-world identity into things.

But the whole reason this works in the first place is because 4chan is actually a pretty homogeneous community underneath the layer of anonymity. Anonymity is great for protecting people against in-group fights and the kind of status struggles that many people in the 4chan demographic hate in real life. But it also creates its own type of cultural standards -- and in 4chan's case, those standards are built around glorifying homophobia, sexism, rape, harassment, and all kinds of other lousy things.

Or look at this part:



It's understandable how that could evolve from a culture of radical anonymity -- but it is also outrageously maladaptive. People can't actually live perfectly anonymous lives out on the internet 24/7; they have to deal with real people in their daily lives. The kind of distrust described here is the foundation of extreme paranoia and conspiracy nuttery; it makes you mistrust totally normal interactions and draw conclusions that are entirely unsupported by the facts. Which, indeed, is exactly what's happened with #gamergate -- widespread paranoia and non-factual conclusions.

I can see that side of it, again, it doesn't really go into much of the morality of how people act when there's no "binding" structure to your personality and no consequences for your actions.

I decided to spread the post anyway because I do keep seeing people refer to 4chan as a collective, where, much like gaming there's a lot more complexity with a more micro examination. Different boards create different subcultures. Game development isn't easy, and collaborative game development is even harder but Katawa Shoujo came out and honestly, is pretty good as VNs go. The /a/ board is way different from the /b/ board, and /fit/ is miles different from /pol/ which is way different from /advice/ (I can't remember the abbreviation)

Many people just think of 4chan as a collective mass. Especially whoever doxxed Fish. "signed The 4 chan mods" is an instant tip off to anyone who is remotely familiar with the board that someone was setting them up (unless it was some sort of double blind designed to fool their own members or something).

My fondest wish is that everyone comes out of this understanding a bit more about whatever side they AREN'T a part of, because if we just pretend this was all about one girl and one dude and don't look at the underlying pressures that caused this to happen. Then it will absolutely happen again. and it will keep happening until we can all understand each other well enough to display a human empathy that others can accept across the divide.

I think there IS common ground. I do believe the majority of gamers that got "pushed" into gamersgate don't REALLY support misogyny, and I don't think gaming feminism REALLY wants to remove content absolutely from gaming. Sure each side has their Malcom Xs, but I think we're mostly MLKs deep down. We just gotta find the common ground where we can talk instead of fighting and the space where we can listen to the other's opinions without becoming reactive or embittered.

 

[Shingro]

Some of it seems to be reworded versions of his blogpost here. And he did have that tweet. I think it may be him. But either way, just his blog post suggests a bit of persecution complex, so...

I don't really know the guy, from what I see though it strikes me like the guy who talks to his family and also talks to the guys down at the construction yard. Many of 4chans boards there's a way to talk that boogie understands.

(trouble is it's a pretty horrifying lexicon in any other context, heck it's a bit rough *in* the context)

I'm not ready to sell him short yet. If nothing else, he DID try to turn the boat to peace, whether doomed or not, possible or not at least he gave it a try.

(Edit: he does seem to be letting it push him to being very reactionary though, which is the last thing people need for a discussion on stuff. He should probably take a break)

 

[JDSN]

Some of it seems to be reworded versions of his blogpost here. And he did have that tweet. I think it may be him. But either way, just his blog post suggests a bit of persecution complex, so...

Well, the persecution complex has been there from day one and his increasingly erratic views have being an escalation to what he perceive is an attack on him, he said he was gonna remove himself from the controversy and is now saying that seems to jumping back in because of it, that is not an evolution or a change of heart, that is just irrational and over reactive.

Dont know why im still giving the benefict of the dude, maybe because he seems hurting, but then again so is most of the boys supporting gamergate.

 

[zeldablue]

Some of it seems to be reworded versions of his blogpost here. And he did have that tweet. I think it may be him. But either way, just his blog post suggests a bit of persecution complex, so...

In his defense, he got attacked quite a bit on twitter before coming here. His mental state was on the defense before he started talking to us.

 

[Moon_frogger]

I'm a little sad that it'll be taboo now to call out the enthusiast press for bias and irresponsible reporting. It's given these vindictive press types the audacity to claim that problems in the enthusiast press don't exist and anybody who says otherwise is a tin foil hat wearing misogynist. Fuck that, not all the blame lies on the publishers, smaller developers are not immune to shitty practices and fuck gamergate for giving them an excuse to act like their shit don't stink. I predict a massive all time low in integrity from developers and press all around because of this. The internet trolls and harassers fucked up everything for everybody, and drove some good people out of the industry while they were at it. So sickening.

 

[Abilidebob]

But the whole reason this works in the first place is because 4chan is actually a pretty homogeneous community underneath the layer of anonymity.

Is that really how it is? I thought it was a pretty heterogeneous place.

 

[ibyea]

I'm a little sad that it'll be taboo now to call out the enthusiast press for bias and irresponsible reporting. It's given these vindictive press types the audacity to claim that problems in the enthusiast press don't exist and anybody who says otherwise is a tin foil hat wearing misogynist. Fuck that, not all the blame lies on the publishers, smaller developers are not immune to shitty practices and fuck gamergate for giving them an excuse to act like their shit don't stink. I predict a massive all time low in integrity from developers and press all around because of this. The internet trolls and harassers fucked up everything for everybody, and drove some good people out of the industry while they were at it. So sickening.

No one is saying small publishers is exempt from corruption nor have I seen from anyone that we shouldn't discuss gamer press corruption.

 

[Elkazan]

I'm a little sad that it'll be taboo now to call out the enthusiast press for bias and irresponsible reporting. It's given these vindictive press types the audacity to claim that problems in the enthusiast press don't exist and anybody who says otherwise is a tin foil hat wearing misogynist. Fuck that, not all the blame lies on the publishers, smaller developers are not immune to shitty practices and fuck gamergate for giving them an excuse to act like their shit don't stink. I predict a massive all time low in integrity from developers and press all around because of this. The internet trolls and harassers fucked up everything for everybody, and drove some good people out of the industry while they were at it. So sickening.

If it's going to be taboo to call out the press, it's going to be because #gamergate's detractors labelled/successfully convinced the ignorant the followers of #gamergate as tin foil hat wearing misogynists.

The blame lies on both sides for wherever the industry goes from here. Be sickened. But be sickened that the conflict itself, which required two opposing sides to exist, is what brought it to this point.

 

[Pandaman]

Is that really how it is? I thought it was a pretty heterogeneous place.

I doubt he actually knows [unless he's secretly moot]. it's a hard place to poll and many people are content to visit once and superimpose what little they see across the whole site. racism, sexism and homophobia is not, for example, a huge problem in the Papercraft & Origami board.

 

[Orayn]

I'm a little sad that it'll be taboo now to call out the enthusiast press for bias and irresponsible reporting. It's given these vindictive press types the audacity to claim that problems in the enthusiast press don't exist and anybody who says otherwise is a tin foil hat wearing misogynist. Fuck that, not all the blame lies on the publishers, smaller developers are not immune to shitty practices and fuck gamergate for giving them an excuse to act like their shit don't stink. I predict a massive all time low in integrity from developers and press all around because of this. The internet trolls and harassers fucked up everything for everybody, and drove some good people out of the industry while they were at it. So sickening.

Why are you under the impression that the bolded will happen? People are criticizing #GG for making nonspecific claims, ignoring relevant questions that people raise, and engaging in a witch hunt targeting indie developers and "SJWs." I don't see how any of that translates into it suddenly being unacceptable to criticize the enthusiast press as long as you don't do it under the banner of one specific shitty movement.

 

[RoninChaos]

Is there a clifs notes version of this I could catch up on? 77 pages is a lot.

 

[zeldablue]

If it's going to be taboo to call out the press, it's going to be because #gamergate's detractors labelled/successfully convinced the ignorant the followers of #gamergate as tin foil hat wearing misogynists.

The blame lies on both sides for wherever the industry goes from here. Be sickened. But be sickened that the conflict itself, which required two opposing sides to exist, is what brought it to this point.

I'm optimistic that this whole thing will allow for more peaceful discussions and give more transparency from one side and more understanding from the other.

Any desire I had to be involved with game development and design has died with this situation. I don't think any women will ever feel safe doing anything in this industry for a while. :/

 

[Moon_frogger]

No one is saying small publishers is exempt from corruption nor have I seen from anyone that we shouldn't discuss gamer press corruption.

I said smaller developers not publishers and I have seen several prominant game press industry warrior fucks claim the corruption doesn't even exist. Leigh Alexander claims it's a 'byproduct of another era' like the days of publishers pressuring the press for good review scores are something that only happened when print was still popular. By the way, what is her problem with print anyway, she shits all over it at every opportunity, as if her inane scribbling about 'games culture' are somehow better by virtue of being online. It's a good thing she has the feminist angle going for her because otherwise her writing wouldn't be worth shit. I laugh thinking about her trying to make it as a writer in a era where blogging didn't exist. I can only imagine her peers who actually worked in print and earned their stripes the hard way provably roll their eyes every time she opens her mouth to talk about anything game related that existed before 2004.

 

[charlequin]

Is that really how it is? I thought it was a pretty heterogeneous place.

It's hard to prove since the site's culture values anonymity so heavily, but in general external measurements have said what you'd expect: that its userbase is composed primarily of young (14-30), American men from middle-class or above households. (That the most popular topics on 4chan tend to line up pretty closely with the topics most popular with that demographic should certainly support that idea.)

Again, note that this is a conversation about demographic trends. There are unquestionably users on 4chan of many ages, genders, races, and nationalities. The site is big enough, and its culture siloed off enough in each board, that some subsets of it will veer pretty far off from that demographic profile. But the boards that are most visible to the outside certainly skew in that direction.

 

[Elkazan]

Is there a clifs notes version of this I could catch up on? 77 pages is a lot.

Indie developer's sex life was made public. One person they slept with wrote for a gaming culture site.
Some people thought this meant there was corruption in the industry (they couldn't prove anything).
A smaller number of those people went full-idiot and started harassing the dev and the writer.
In response, a bunch of sites posted very poorly-worded opinion pieces, decrying the "end of gamers" and generally pissing off a large number of their audience. #gamergate is born, seeking journalistic integrity in the games community.
Because of it's alleged beginnings on 4chan, #gamergate is deemed a movement of hate.
Idiots continue to harass and threaten key figures in the industry. Some of these are female and thus #gamergate is deemed a misogynist movement.
#gamergate thinks they discover corruption in the Indie Games Fest. They can't prove anything.
The FBI is allegedly looking into the threats and harassment from 4chan.

 

[Elkazan]

I'm optimistic that this whole thing will allow for more peaceful discussions and give more transparency from one side and more understanding from the other.

Any desire I had to be involved with game development and design has died with this situation. I don't think any women will ever feel safe doing anything in this industry for a while. :/

I hope your optimism is rewarded.

I think, overall, women in the industry are more resilient than we tend to give them credit for. Sorry you lost your drive.

 

[Orayn]

Indie developer's sex life was made public. One person they slept with wrote for a gaming culture site.
Some people thought this meant there was corruption in the industry (they couldn't prove anything).
A smaller number of those people went full-idiot and started harassing the dev and the writer.
In response, a bunch of sites posted very poorly-worded opinion pieces, decrying the "end of gamers" and generally pissing off a large number of their audience. #gamergate is born, seeking journalistic integrity in the games community.
Because of it's alleged association with 4chan, #gamergate is deemed a movement of hate.
Idiots continue to harass and threaten key figures in the industry. Some of these are female and thus #gamergate is deemed a misogynist movement.
#gamergate thinks they discover corruption in the Indie Games Fest. They can't prove anything.
The FBI is allegedly looking into the threats and harassment from 4chan.

It's not alleged. You can go on /v/ right now and find people transparently organizing the Twitter campaign and telling people how to stay "on message," how to deal with detractors, the best ways to spam shit and annoy people, etc.

 

[zeldablue]

I hope your optimism is rewarded.

I think, overall, women in the industry are more resilient than we tend to give them credit for. Sorry you lost your drive.

I still wish to do something fun on the side...

But I'll keep my head down while doing it.

 

[Moon_frogger]

If it's going to be taboo to call out the press, it's going to be because #gamergate's detractors labelled/successfully convinced the ignorant the followers of #gamergate as tin foil hat wearing misogynists.

The blame lies on both sides for wherever the industry goes from here. Be sickened. But be sickened that the conflict itself, which required two opposing sides to exist, is what brought it to this point.

Your first sentence hurts to read but I think I it's pretty much what I'm saying. Fuck you, gamergate for not only being a blubbering mass of hatred and harassment, but for making such fools if yourselves that I cringe every time someone mentions 'corruption' which is an actual thing that does happen.

The rest of your post I guess I agree with, although there really no siding with gamergate, when it comes down to it I'd side with Leigh Alexander over the most 'moderate' gamergate truther and I think she's an absolute joke of a writer. That's how much I hate these fucks.

 

[Elkazan]

It's not alleged. You can go on /v/ right now and find people transparently organizing the Twitter campaign and telling people how to stay "on message," how to deal with detractors, the best ways to spam shit and annoy people, etc.

That should have read "alleged beginnings on 4chan".

Just because there is a group on /v/ that is currently working toward the goals of #gamergate, doesn't necessarily mean it started there.

Will fix now.

 

[Elkazan]

Your first sentence hurts to read but I think I it's pretty much what I'm saying. Fuck you, gamergate for not only being a blubbering mass of hatred and harassment, but for making such fools if yourselves that I cringe every time someone mentions 'corruption' which is an actual thing that does happen.

The rest of your post I guess I agree with, although there really no siding with gamergate, when it comes down to it I'd side with Leigh Alexander over the most 'moderate' gamergate truther and I think she's an absolute joke of a writer. That's how much I hate these fucks.

I choose no side. Both sides are in the wrong. Both have valid complaints about the other side. Neither side handled this in any way that can benefit gamers (and I'm still proud to call myself a gamer.

 

[Abilidebob]

that its userbase is composed primarily of young (14-30), American men from middle-class or above households.

Isn't that the same as Neogaf or am I wrong?

Anyway, I see what you mean. So that layer of anonymity "helps" to strengthen the views of the majority of the site's userbase, right?
It's sad to know that something as great as anonymity can be indirectly used to foster problematic behavior.

But are there no good points about it?

 

[Pandaman]

It's hard to prove since the site's culture values anonymity so heavily, but in general external measurements have said what you'd expect: that its userbase is composed primarily of young (14-30), American men from middle-class or above households. (That the most popular topics on 4chan tend to line up pretty closely with the topics most popular with that demographic should certainly support that idea.)

Again, note that this is a conversation about demographic trends. There are unquestionably users on 4chan of many ages, genders, races, and nationalities. The site is big enough, and its culture siloed off enough in each board, that some subsets of it will veer pretty far off from that demographic profile. But the boards that are most visible to the outside certainly skew in that direction.

isn't neogaf primarily composed of that same demographic? are you as comfortable drawing those same conclusions about us as you did about 4chan, or do you think that this data is somewhat flimsy evidence for your accusation.

 

[charlequin]

isn't neogaf primarily composed of that same demographic?

Certainly, although I'm reasonably confident that GAF skews notably older.

are you as comfortable drawing those same conclusions about us as you did about 4chan, or do you think that this data is somewhat flimsy evidence for your accusation.

What accusation am I making? Most of my commentary up there is very specifically about the place GAF and 4chan differ most significantly -- 4chan has a model of radical anonymity and no moderation, while GAF has long-term investment in identities and active moderation. That anonymity has some positive effects in some cases, but it also makes it really, really easy for some of the stuff we're talking about -- casually homophobic board slang, coordinated harassment campaigns, a general air of misanthropy towards people who don't share the same ethos of anonymity -- to happen.

But are there no good points about it?

I think the tumblr post actually covers the most positive aspects pretty thoroughly and I don't particularly disagree with them; I just want to counterbalance it with the downsides.

 

[Nephrahim]

I keep expecting this to end but then I look and it's still being talked about.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I now love Dan Vavra (Mafia1/2, Kingdom Come) even more:

http://techraptor.net/2014/09/12/int...-daniel-vavra/

He's not afraid to tell it like it is. World is infested with politically correct people, so it refreshing to read something like that.

Comments.are worth reading too.

What a myopic, dismissive asshat. Suddenly my interest in Kingdom Come is dropping sharply.

 

[boogie2988]

I promised myself I wouldn't post again in this thread but to see myself discussed here over and over, I just can't help it.

Yes I have used a tripcode on 4chan and yes I have spoken with people there time and time again. not a single person I have interacted with wants to 'harass' anyone or 'attack' anyone and in fact they are very adamant about NOT DOING SO.

Every post I have ever made on 4chan is identical to the ones that I post here. I encourage them to be civil, I encourage them to be kind, I encourage them not to target individuals, and I encourage them to do the right things the right way.

Yes I admit there that I have been contacted and 'harassed' by people in the industry. Shit, its happened RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD. actually read the fucking thing. That's not to even mention the things that have been said to me in DM, in email, and elsewhere.

I have no fucking clue what you people expect of me and its sad that you expect anything at all. But what I'm delivering is the only thing I ever promised that I'd deliver. Let's recap that shall we?

A message of kindness.
A message of love.
A message of equality.
A message of reinforcing the desire for integrity in the industry.

If that bothers somoene that's fine.

You can point at all of my faults, of which there are DOZENS. You can tell me how shitty and worthless I am and you're welcome to do so. You can treat me like a fat misogynistic neckbeard as they have here, or you can treat me like a SJW shill like they do over at chan. I have simply ceased caring.

My message will NEVER WAVER from moderation, kindness, and equality, and reinforcing that the industry must be integral for it to continue to exist.

I'm over caring about this and I'm going to just go back to hitting the shitty parts of this industry with both barrels, starting with the video I'm uploading as we type this.

Love me, hate me, or don't care either way... I'm over it.

 

[Corto]

We don't expect nothing from you Boogie. In this thread people that interacted with you were always respectful. None addressed to you in an insulting way. People tried to reason with you. You are free to make your own choices after that. But please own it, don't try to be facetious. Have a nice life.

 

[boogie2988]

We don't expect nothing from you Boogie. In this thread people that interacted with you were always respectful. None addressed to you in an insulting way. People tried to reason with you. You are free to make your own choices after that. But please own it, don't try to be facetious. Have a nice life.

Someone pointed out how "paranoid" i was, other people pointed out how I "attacked" a defenseless person.... and I'm sorry I just don't consider that kind of thing respectful.

It might also be one of my faults but the tone of your post does also sound quite condescending, but if you meant it as genuine and kind I apologize and am very appreciative. Thank you.

 

[Yrael]

Hi again Boogie - hope you're feeling a bit better now and less anxious (I mean that sincerely).

 

[ibyea]

I promised myself I wouldn't post again in this thread but to see myself discussed here over and over, I just can't help it.

Yes I have used a tripcode on 4chan and yes I have spoken with people there time and time again. not a single person I have interacted with wants to 'harass' anyone or 'attack' anyone and in fact they are very adamant about NOT DOING SO.

Every post I have ever made on 4chan is identical to the ones that I post here. I encourage them to be civil, I encourage them to be kind, I encourage them not to target individuals, and I encourage them to do the right things the right way.

Yes I admit there that I have been contacted and 'harassed' by people in the industry. Shit, its happened RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD. actually read the fucking thing. That's not to even mention the things that have been said to me in DM, in email, and elsewhere.

I have no fucking clue what you people expect of me and its sad that you expect anything at all. But what I'm delivering is the only thing I ever promised that I'd deliver. Let's recap that shall we?

A message of kindness.
A message of love.
A message of equality.
A message of reinforcing the desire for integrity in the industry.

If that bothers somoene that's fine.

You can point at all of my faults, of which there are DOZENS. You can tell me how shitty and worthless I am and you're welcome to do so. You can treat me like a fat misogynistic neckbeard as they have here, or you can treat me like a SJW shill like they do over at chan. I have simply ceased caring.

My message will NEVER WAVER from moderation, kindness, and equality, and reinforcing that the industry must be integral for it to continue to exist.

I'm over caring about this and I'm going to just go back to hitting the shitty parts of this industry with both barrels, starting with the video I'm uploading as we type this.

Love me, hate me, or don't care either way... I'm over it.

You know, I have always hated calls for moderation. Because usually, it doesn't mean, oh don't be a terrible human being. It usually means, don't talk about things that makes me uncomfortable despite it being reasonable criticisms. And I feel like that is what you are doing.

 

[boogie2988]

Hi again Boogie - hope you're feeling a bit better now and less anxious (I mean that sincerely).

was until I came back to this thread

Dunno what to tell you, man. I think a lot of us felt like we'd had some decent productive conversations with you, and then meanwhile you're over on 4chan telling them we're bullying you or trying to silence you or something like that, and well, it feels kind of crappy from where we're sitting.

As far as what you're going to talk about or make videos about, hey, do what you want. It's your Youtube channel, it's your prerogative. There's no reason for you to care what we think about your message or what we tell you about it, unless what we think makes sense to you. It sounds like it doesn't, so whatever.

And if people on GAF are insulting you, well, GAF is pretty heavily moderated. Some would say overmoderated. If someone insults you, please PM a mod with a link to the post and we'll look at it. We care about this kind of shit a lot more than Twitter.

Cyan, this thread is not the only place that I'm having conversations about that. You're surprised to learn about 4chan, now only imagine where else I'm discussing this kind of thing and you'd be further surprised.

I understand why it feels crappy for whatever reason, but please understand that I have enjoyed our conversations and they have been productive. I still reject the idea that simply because we're discussing the things we're discussing i'm some sort of harassing monster. That's ludicrous to me.

But this thread has had me reconsider my thoughts on Sommers, made me truly empathize with zoe quinn and leigh alexander, and helped me grow as a person. Nothing changes that. I have and always will appreciate the challenging conversation even if you were not able to sway me in every possible way.

As for harassing, I'm so fucking used to it I'm not going to take the time out of my day to start reporting it because if I did I wouldn't get anything done. But feel free to scan this thread and see if someone broke the rules.

I believe the rumors of neogaf to be overmoderate to be over exaggerated, though. I have mispoke a few times... nothing that would break the rules... and you mods have been nothing but kind to me, and I truly appreciate it. Keep up the great work.

 

[boogie2988]

You know, I have always hated calls for moderation. Because usually, it doesn't mean, oh don't be a terrible human being. It usually means, don't talk about things that makes me uncomfortable despite it being reasonable criticisms. And I feel like that is what you are doing.

then please allow me to be more clear for your benefit.

Please talk about all of the terribly uncomfortable and nasty things going on right now. Please talk about the crazy people on the fringe of #gamergate who would do terrible things. Please talk about the bull headed people on the other side who will not even consider a true discussion. Please talk about how harassment is wrong, please talk about how integrity in the industry is important, please talk about rape culture, please talk about how shitty gamers can be, and let's be as detailed and grizzly as possible.

But while doing so, please remember that every single person involved in this discussion is as valid and as important a human being as anyone else and use every single fiber of your self control TO BE KIND TO THEM.

That's all I've ever said and that's all I'll ever say. <3

 

[Noaloha]

Blog post from David Hill (Machine Age) on his experiences reaching out to #GamerGate, his take on the hashtag's aims from the perspective of someone inside the industry and the misplaced targeting of the hashtag.

No new arguments really - stuff we've heard from a dozen or more voices - but he puts forth his case in a relatively concise, plain-speaking and reasoned way.

https://plus.google.com/+DavidHillJr/posts/fT3tNRVWL3o

 

[ibyea]

was until I came back to this thread



Cyan, this thread is not the only place that I'm having conversations about that. You're surprised to learn about 4chan, now only imagine where else I'm discussing this kind of thing and you'd be further surprised.

I understand why it feels crappy for whatever reason, but please understand that I have enjoyed our conversations and they have been productive. I still reject the idea that simply because we're discussing the things we're discussing i'm some sort of harassing monster. That's ludicrous to me.

But this thread has had me reconsider my thoughts on Sommers, made me truly empathize with zoe quinn and leigh alexander, and helped me grow as a person. Nothing changes that. I have and always will appreciate the challenging conversation even if you were not able to sway me in every possible way.

As for harassing, I'm so fucking used to it I'm not going to take the time out of my day to start reporting it because if I did I wouldn't get anything done. But feel free to scan this thread and see if someone broke the rules.

I believe the rumors of neogaf to be overmoderate to be over exaggerated, though. I have mispoke a few times... nothing that would break the rules... and you mods have been nothing but kind to me, and I truly appreciate it. Keep up the great work.

Who is calling you a harassing monster? People here have criticized your involvement with 4Chan, and some of the things you said in it, not called you a harassing monster. Now, I don't care about why you were in 4Chan, but don't put words in people's mouth.

 

[Brakke]

"on the fringe"

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Chinner]

"on the fringe"

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Recognized, but still fringe, Brakke.

 

[boogie2988]

Who is calling you a harassing monster? People here have criticized your involvement with 4Chan, and some of the things you said in it, not called you a harassing monster. Now, I don't care about why you were in 4Chan, but don't put words in people's mouth.

you need to go back into this thread to read where it was said that my use of the gamergate hashtag was showing no remorse and perpetuates the attacks on zoe quinn. Go back to see where its said that I'm personally doing harm to these women by using this hashtag. Go back to where me saying I believe that Sommer's opinion on femenism to be more logical than others and where this makes me a bad person.

 

[boogie2988]

"on the fringe"

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

I know its difficult for some people to consider but a large portion of all parties on all sides of this thing are actual thinking, loving, feeling human beings just as valid as you and I.

consider that.