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[Dr_LucienSanchez]

In the gaming community Anita Sarkeesian has become almost synonymous with feminism. When I originally heard of her mission I was quite happy that there was someone pointing out the lack of female involvement in game development. I was expecting the majority of her talks to consist of ways to push women to take up math,science and interactive art courses in college so that they could qualify for positions in the industry. However, once she started asking for money to make youtube video’s I became a bit weary. Soon her videos began to roll out and the end result was simply her sitting in front of a camera spouting hate against men. There was nothing that would warrant a request for $6,000 let alone $150,000. Anita spends quite a bit of time blaming men and gamers for the lack of women in the games industry, and lack of female protagonists in games. She almost never addresses ways for women to break into the industry and expects male developers to sacrifice their creative ideas rather than propose effective ways for women to get jobs as developers so they can bring forth their own. She puts down games where women are killed and sexualized yet ignores thousdands of male characters who are mutilated and designed with muscular bodies. There is no comparison in games between how many men are killed and sexualized vs women. She is not a feminist, she is an extremist.

...

Again sorry for the long post guys. I hope I didn’t offend anyone, it certainly isn't my intention to. This is just how I feel, and I hope you can respect that without thinking of me as a sexist or insensitive. I simply feel our attention is misplaced. I'm going to go to sleep now as I've spent far too many hours writing this.

Oh, come on now. It's obviously a smaller nitpick to the rest of your post, but the Tropes vs Women videos are extremely tame. I would really love to see where she's spouting all this hatred towards men in them. It's not extremism, it's simply critique, and there is simply no reason that video games should be immune from that sort of critique. Unfortunately you labeling her as some sort of man-hating extremist just sort of overshadows the rest of your post - which seems to be for purely advocating that more women get into STEM fields (and that's a whole different discussion with a decent amount of STS research available).

Anyway, as somebody who doesn't really watch boogie's videos, there really seems to be a big disconnect between his posts here and his post that was shared from 4chan. I get catering towards one's audience, but it's rather jarring.

 

[Widge]

I like that Gaf is on the jpeg of BAD NEWS SITES. Even though it isn't a news site and is pretty much the most gaming evangelical place I have ever been on. Anyone been in the Final Fantasy VIII 15th anniversary thread? The OP there is the love of games in a nutshell.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I'll have done all of this damage to my reputation for no good reason.

I don't think you should see voicing your opinion as "reputation damage".

I'd say this is more of a reputation change than "damage", but a change can come with enormous tension when it conflicts with people's mental image of you versus who you really are as a person.

They have quite the echo chamber going over there. Even neogaf's stringent mod policies have allowed people to come in and discuss why they are siding with gamergate, as long as they are actually discussing it. Over there, any slightly negative or perceived-to-be-negative comment is piled on with "shill" and "you paid $10 to troll" (an accusation that anyone negative is coming from somethingawful to troll.) They have a post that describes different types of shilling and how to respond.

So, instead of remaining calm when they see questions or concerns, they go nuts with conspiracy theories about everything since they don't know how to respond rationally. If you're a public figure, they try to dig up dirt and allege crimes and all that good stuff. (Think of the Simpsons episode where Mr. Burns runs for governor.)

:| Yikes.

 

[boogie2988]

I don't think you should see voicing your opinion as "reputation damage".

I'd say this is more of a reputation change than "damage", but a change can come with enormous tension when it conflicts with people's mental image of you versus who you really are as a person.



:| Yikes.

The person I am inside this thread and on twitter is more like the person I actually am.

the person I am on 4chan is more like who I used to be.

The person I am in my youtube videos is the person I aspire every day to be.

 

[Widge]

glad to know that its being appreciated somewhere..

Well, as I said, I'm not a big youtube watcher, my non-gaming time is spent absorbing music. I'd seen a few vids. Now I know you as a good person and not some guy from youtube!

Other positives to come from this: I have discovered Patreon - I might try and use this someday - and have started following more industry figures that have cropped up in it all.

 

[boogie2988]

So, instead of remaining calm when they see questions or concerns, they go nuts with conspiracy theories about everything since they don't know how to respond rationally. If you're a public figure, they try to dig up dirt and allege crimes and all that good stuff. (Think of the Simpsons episode where Mr. Burns runs for governor.)

Yup. As far as I can tell the theory that is currently being spun about me goes like this.

I started getting involved only because I wanted to get youtube views. Ignoring the obvious fact that I've gotten nearly 260,000,000 views already and my videos on this topic make up all of about 400,000 of them.

Then I backed out because I wasn't getting the views I wanted. apparantly I'm only concerned about "My shekels" ? I don't know that reference.

Another theory is that I have been "bought" by the gaming industry and am now an inside agent attempting to undermine the movement from inside.

A rare few seem to realize that In my moderation and my openness to all sides of this I'm simply not useful for their cause any more and have been forcibly ejected. This is closer to the truth and I'm pretty comfortable with that.

Interesting fact though I've received 3 phone calls in the past 15 minutes from restaurants confirming my reservations and I presume this will continue into the day as my personal information is public knowledge and I'm sure people are frustrated with me.

Good times.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

The person I am inside this thread and on twitter is more like the person I actually am.

the person I am on 4chan is more like who I used to be.

The person I am in my youtube videos is the person I aspire every day to be.

I think this is a good thing to keep in the back of your head even if your message gets lost.

I don't agree with every position you hold, but you've come across as genuinly open & interested person in these threads.

Interesting fact though I've received 3 phone calls in the past 15 minutes from restaurants confirming my reservations and I presume this will continue into the day as my personal information is public knowledge and I'm sure people are frustrated with me.

Good times.

That's awful /: Shitty bullies.

 

[partyphone]

Oh, come on now. It's obviously a smaller nitpick to the rest of your post, but the Tropes vs Women videos are extremely tame. I would really love to see where she's spouting all this hatred towards men in them. It's not extremism, it's simply critique, and there is simply no reason that video games should be immune from that sort of critique. Unfortunately you labeling her as some sort of man-hating extremist just sort of overshadows the rest of your post - which seems to be for purely advocating that more women get into STEM fields (and that's a whole different discussion with a decent amount of STS research available).

his entire post is pretty ignorant. he's basically saying Anita should shut up about video games because there are bigger problems to worry about.

and we aren't going to get more women into STEM without changing our culture. but our culture will never change if everyone just stays quiet and refuses to criticize sexism. Anita is focusing on games because she likes them and there is a ton of sexism in the industry which makes the topic ripe for a video series.

it's nonsensical and rather insulting to call what she's doing extreme. it's an attempt to dismiss her criticism without having to address it directly.

 

[MHWilliams]

This is a good Standards Code right here. Clearly define what your outlet does and will do in the future. If more outlets defined what they offer in a better way, we would have less vitriol. Although, there will always be vitriol in some parts of the internet. You can't have the Ying without the Yang, so to speak.

Many outlets have a code of ethics. Most readers don't read them.

 

[P.H. Perinax]

I signed up to neogaf because i wanted to put my two cents in to this debate. After reading all these pages I have come to the opinion that neither side actually know what they want out of this. All the invective, accusations and counter-accusations has just left me just as confused as when came in to this discussion.

One side is supposedly fighting for ethics in game journalism, yet seem to take all their time talking about indie developers of little to no consequence. (I didn't know or care who Zoe Quinn was before all this started and I still don't) I remember an article earlier in this thread that basically said that a lot of these gamergaters don't know that journalism and being an enthusiast can be two separate things. You can't be critical of a AAA developer and expect to be in on the latest findings of their new product. You can't expect journalists to take stands on issues and then be upset that they take stands that you don't agree with.
Hopefully, an outcome of all this will be that the enthusiast side and the journalist side will be a bit more separate, and that those in the games media will take the time to think if they actually consider themselves "journalists" in the traditional sense of the word.

Then we have those that want better representation of women in videogames. That's a fair enough viewpoint, but I don't see how they expect to bring that about in a meaningful way. Sure, we can cut out a lot of the cheesecake and pandering to teenage boys, something I wish was done already in society with free porn on the internet. (seriously you don't have to titillate me to get my attention) But at end of the day, if that grim space marine blowing away wave after wave of faceless mooks just happens to be female instead of male, how is that progress instead of window dressing? You are still giving in to the power fantasy, just with a different set of genitalia.

 

[Corpekata]

Painguy's post reminds me of how common the "I'm just the average person, I'm no sexist" shtick is, right before or after saying a lot of really questionable stuff.

 

[Noaloha]

I have no doubt whatsoever that many of the #GG issues targeting the dev side will (again) come up for discussion at next year's Games Developers' Conference, be it in the form of sessions or roundtables or whatever.

Question though: Does the media side of the industry have an event comparable to GDC? Somewhere for the press and associated companies/individuals to congregate and get involved in collected discussion? I'm wondering where the meaningful talks for the media will take place (if they'll take place outside of the company office at all). I guess I'm expecting panels at the next PAX at least. My assumption is that there are people on the media side who want to have these talks, but do not want to do it anywhere near the #GG tag. It will be interesting, if such talks do happen, how the 'voice of the gamer' will be represented, should that problematic aspect even be opted for.

 

[Trame]

For example, if I were to announce that I dislike Anita Sarkeesian then many people would automatically label me as an insensitive asshole or a sexist. If I was a sexist then by definition that would imply that I hate my mom simply because she is a woman. Let me reassure you all that I love my mother without condition, but I certainly do not like Anita Sarkeesian.

...

However, once [Anita Sarkeesian] started asking for money to make youtube video’s I became a bit weary. Soon her videos began to roll out and the end result was simply her sitting in front of a camera spouting hate against men.

You're literally doing the thing you're accusing other people of doing to you (i.e., I don't like Anita's incredibly mild feminist critiques of videogames - she's a sexist who hates all men!). By and large she doesn't even talk about men beyond briefly mentioning the 'male-dominated industry' or 'primarily male audience,' which are things that are objectively true for the games she's talking about.

If anyone is calling you sexist for your opinions on Anita, it's not because you dislike her (I've seen reasonable criticism of her work, rare as it is on the internet), but because the first thing you resort to when talking about her are stereotypes pushed by people who are somewhat professionally sexist - conservative pundits and commentators who have for decades been describing any and all feminist concerns as the demands of shrill harpies and man-hating feminazis.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Then we have those that want better representation of women in videogames. That's a fair enough viewpoint, but I don't see how they expect to bring that about in a meaningful way. Sure, we can cut out a lot of the cheesecake and pandering to teenage boys, something I wish was done already in society with free porn on the internet. (seriously you don't have to titillate me to get my attention) But at end of the day, if that grim space marine blowing away wave after wave of faceless mooks just happens to be female instead of male, how is that progress instead of window dressing? You are still giving in to the power fantasy, just with a different set of genitalia.

... That's an awfully specific one-note scenario you're describing here.


Just a small unrelated example: Smash brothers more than doubled the number of female playable characters in the latest game. Essentially none of them are fanboy cheesecake-characters. This is awesome & I've seen tons of people super excited about this.

If more games do this, especially as playable options, that's a fairly viable and understandable goal, no?

 

[Widge]

Then we have those that want better representation of women in videogames.

Not quite for me. I just want the moany minority who want to shout down Anita, articles of her ilk, more artistically inclined games, freedom of expression in journalism to not get their way.

As such, I'm not antiGG but I am anti that stance. Feels as if they want to dictate exactly what gaming is and what is talked about.

 

[pslong009]

I signed up to neogaf because i wanted to put my two cents in to this debate. After reading all these pages I have come to the opinion that neither side actually know what they want out of this. All the invective, accusations and counter-accusations has just left me just as confused as when came in to this discussion.

One side is supposedly fighting for ethics in game journalism, yet seem to take all their time talking about indie developers of little to no consequence. (I didn't know or care who Zoe Quinn was before all this started and I still don't) I remember an article earlier in this thread that basically said that a lot of these gamergaters don't know that journalism and being an enthusiast can be two separate things. You can't be critical of a AAA developer and expect to be in on the latest findings of their new product. You can't expect journalists to take stands on issues and then be upset that they take stands that you don't agree with.
Hopefully, an outcome of all this will be that the enthusiast side and the journalist side will be a bit more separate, and that those in the games media will take the time to think if they actually consider themselves "journalists" in the traditional sense of the word.

Then we have those that want better representation of women in videogames. That's a fair enough viewpoint, but I don't see how they expect to bring that about in a meaningful way. Sure, we can cut out a lot of the cheesecake and pandering to teenage boys, something I wish was done already in society with free porn on the internet. (seriously you don't have to titillate me to get my attention) But at end of the day, if that grim space marine blowing away wave after wave of faceless mooks just happens to be female instead of male, how is that progress instead of window dressing? You are still giving in to the power fantasy, just with a different set of genitalia.

There's a post on the previous page (same page if you're 100 posts / page) with a screenshot of a developer on QuarterToThree's forum stating that Anita's videos have already changed how he and his team are approaching their game. And gaming is a lot more than just 'blowing away wave after wave of faceless mooks', so there are plenty of opportunities to make changes for the better. Honestly, just making people aware of the issue and asking them to take a closer look at how their work might be perceived can lead to HUGE changes. I don't think developers are intentionally depicting women poorly - they're just not thinking about it and are unaware of how their decisions are being received by their audience.

 

[Mesoian]

For those of you who hate 4chan though there's good news.

It appears that the story they're spinning about me currently is that i'm an "oppurtunistic shill" who probably "directly works for the opposition" and is using the "Art of war techniques of divide and conquer" to take the whole thing down from the inside.

if you thought defending myself HERE was difficult, I don't even know how to begin to approach that mess... especially once the actual harassment begins.

The least you guys are doing is questioning my loyalties to equality and saying that I'm two faced. That's pretty easily refutable.

Doesn't deter me from participating to spread a message of kindness though

I mean, real talk, you don't. It's swiping at shadows and white noise at that point.

Like seriously.

Then I backed out because I wasn't getting the views I wanted. apparantly I'm only concerned about "My shekels" ? I don't know that reference.

The fact that one of their bullet points against you is a meme-ified slur about jews from the 20's is just further evidence that they aren't worth listening to.

Just a small unrelated example: Smash brothers more than doubled the number of female playable characters in the latest game. Essentially none of them are fanboy cheesecake-characters. This is awesome & I've seen tons of people super excited about this.

Ehh...I think the better point is that you can have cheesecake characters still be badass and respectable as well as titilating. ZSS is pure cheesecake, 100%, but that doesn't detract from the fact that Samus is still a badass.

 

[zeldablue]

But at end of the day, if that grim space marine blowing away wave after wave of faceless mooks just happens to be female instead of male, how is that progress instead of window dressing? You are still giving in to the power fantasy, just with a different set of genitalia.

I think that'd be good progress. At the end of the day, a lot of people just want to see women in different roles. Individualism and all that.

... That's an awfully specific one-note scenario you're describing here.


Just a small unrelated example: Smash brothers more than doubled the number of female playable characters in the latest game. Essentially none of them are fanboy cheesecake-characters. This is awesome & I've seen tons of people super excited about this.

If more games do this, especially as playable options, that's a fairly viable and understandable goal, no?

Nintendo has been home-running recently. But that has a lot to do with them trying to expand their audience too.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Ehh...I think the better point is that you can have cheesecake characters still be badass and respectable as well as titilating. ZSS is pure cheesecake, 100%, but that doesn't detract from the fact that Samus is still a badass.

I think it gets kinda awkward when "cheesecake" (?) is essentially the only option given to people.

 

[Mesoian]

I think it gets kinda awkward when "cheesecake" (?) is essentially the only option given to people.

Absolutely. Sexy should always be an option, it should NEVER be the default. You want your high level armor to be pasties and t-backs, fine, as long as you don't force that shit on people.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Absolutely. Sexy should always be an option, it should NEVER be the default. You want your high level armor to be pasties and t-backs, fine, as long as you don't force that shit on people.

Perhaps I didn't articulate it well but that's all I was trying to say.

 

[Nymphae]

regardless of context, culture, or anything, the word is still a slur.

Culture and context create the slur. It is not viewed as a slur by that community, to my understanding. For the rcord ,I really don't enjoy 4chan's overuse of the word, but I understand the context somewhat. They don't really use those terms anywhere else, so there isn't a lot of harm IMO.

 

[berzeli]

...

Every post I have ever made on 4chan is identical to the ones that I post here. I encourage them to be civil, I encourage them to be kind, I encourage them not to target individuals, and I encourage them to do the right things the right way.

...

I have no fucking clue what you people expect of me and its sad that you expect anything at all. But what I'm delivering is the only thing I ever promised that I'd deliver. Let's recap that shall we?

A message of kindness.
A message of love.
A message of equality.
A message of reinforcing the desire for integrity in the industry.

If that bothers somoene that's fine.

...

My message will NEVER WAVER from moderation, kindness, and equality, and reinforcing that the industry must be integral for it to continue to exist.

I'm over caring about this and I'm going to just go back to hitting the shitty parts of this industry with both barrels, starting with the video I'm uploading as we type this.

Love me, hate me, or don't care either way... I'm over it.

Sorry. But no.

You do not get to say that you care about kindness when you use homophobic slurs. And yes "fag" in this context is a homophobic slur, just because it is accepted in that environment does not lessen its impact. If you were hanging out with the KKK I'm sure they would accept certain slurs in that environment as well, still does nothing to lessen their impact. And that you have the gall to go "but what if I was in the UK and talking about cigarettes" is honestly abhorrent. You are not in the UK and you were not talking about cigarettes, so there was no reason at all to bring up that non sequitur.

You do not get to say that you care about equality when you are taking undermining those who are promoting it. Feminism isn't the enemy. Never has been, never will be, and when you do things such as supporting Christina Hoff Sommers (even when it is out of ignorance) you are not working for equality.

You do not get to claim that you care about moderation when you are fanning the flames by promoting those destructive voices who brought this all about. If you care so much about this hallowed middle-ground then go to it, #gamergate isn't it. #gamergate is the battlefield.

It does bother me, for you are standing next to a burning building and you are not siding with the firemen, not siding with those who are helping the family, you are siding with the arsonists.
And whether you like it or not your voice carries weight, you are no longer some random guy posting aimlessly on the internet. People care about what you have to say and that gives you a responsibility to think before you write or say something.

I am sorry for the rant, and I genuinely don't believe you are a bad guy but this is not a good fight you are fighting. And I urge you to maybe take a day or two, go somewhere where there is no internet and take 48 hours to try and put things in perspective.

 

[zeldablue]

When you're with a particular group, inside jokes form and casual racism, sexism and homophobia becomes the norm. That's just how it is. It's a part of the "culture."

I used to use those slurs consistently, despite saying I never swore. In college I very quickly stopped after seeing the damage my gay friends were going through. And I later got caught casually making a rape joke by a friend who was affected by it. I kind of had to be set aside and hear why something so normalized for me, was so damaging for them.

Needless to say, I just feel terrible for being so casual and allusive about it. I will never do it again because I know the other side of the coin. =/

I know it's different in real life because you can make sure certain people don't hear bad things. But on the internet anyone can read anything...and I don't really think it's right to censor out these groups if they can't help who reads what.

 

[Mesoian]

Sorry. But no.

You do not get to say that you care about kindness when you use homophobic slurs. And yes "fag" in this context is a homophobic slur, just because it is accepted in that environment does not lessen its impact. If you were hanging out with the KKK I'm sure they would accept certain slurs in that environment as well, still does nothing to lessen their impact. And that you have the gall to go "but what if I was in the UK and talking about cigarettes" is honestly abhorrent. You are not in the UK and you were not talking about cigarettes, so there was no reason at all to bring up that non sequitur.

You do not get to say that you care about equality when you are taking undermining those who are promoting it. Feminism isn't the enemy. Never has been, never will be, and when you do things such as supporting Christina Hoff Sommers (even when it is out of ignorance) you are not working for equality.

You do not get to claim that you care about moderation when you are fanning the flames by promoting those destructive voices who brought this all about. If you care so much about this hallowed middle-ground then go to it, #gamergate isn't it. #gamergate is the battlefield.

It does bother me, for you are standing next to a burning building and you are not siding with the firemen, not siding with those who are helping the family, you are siding with the arsonists.
And whether you like it or not your voice carries weight, you are no longer some random guy posting aimlessly on the internet. People care about what you have to say and that gives you a responsibility to think before you write or say something.

I am sorry for the rant, and I genuinely don't believe you are a bad guy but this is not a good fight you are fighting. And I urge you to maybe take a day or two, go somewhere where there is no internet and take 48 hours to try and put things in perspective.

All I'll say in agreement of this post is that, yeah, I don't care if it's internet culture or whatever, you need to cut that "blankFAG" stuff out. It's the same sort of idiocy as using "Jew" as an insult, and when you say it in a public place (because you do, and you don't realize it and I know this because I have friends who frequent 4chan, and will let that shit slip out in public) you embarrass yourself and disassociate yourself with everyone else who isn't inherently ingrained in 4chan culture, not even internet culture. It is inherently alienating and it needs to stop. It's like people who make "Nigger" jokes and don't understand why it's a bad thing. "But the internet says it all the time, and I don't hate black people! I have plenty of black friends! You shouldn't be mad because it doesn't even reference you". No no no. Stop it. Ignorance isn't an excuse for that sort of thing and using that shit for some sort of semblance of acceptance is even worse. That's buying into and empowering hate speech.

And I know how annoying it is when people preach at you about the language that you use that seemingly was fine before certaindateX and now is unacceptable; there are days where I wish "retarded" was still fine. But it's not. So I, at least, try to stop saying it, even though it slips out sometimes.

So try. Because that's a real fucking bad look man.

I know it's different in real life because you can make sure certain people don't hear bad things. But on the internet anyone can read anything...and I don't really think it's right to censor out these groups if they can't help who reads what.

People can say whatever they like. But if I come across a thread where everyone within is making "jew" and "nigger" jokes, I'm going to question why i'm on that site. I'm probably going to leave and never return. Because I don't truck with that shit.

If that word is a slur then every person who smokes in england is a monster. Or wait, is that considered fair context? If so why isn't my use of it?

I agree that words use power and I'd never use that word in jest anywhere else, not in a video or on twitter or most likely my personal life.

but if I were in england and I wanted to bum a smoke you'd bet your ass I'd ask for a fag and be entirely without remorse.

I mean, no.

Try using "fanny" in the same way and see how far it gets you. Like I said, ignorance isn't a reasonable excuse here. You KNOW the connotation that the word has in the US and the UK and just because the word is acceptable there, doesn't mean it's acceptable here, much in the same way that "fanny" isn't expectable there while it is here.

 

[EmiPrime]

If that word is a slur then every person who smokes in england is a monster. Or wait, is that considered fair context? If so why isn't my use of it?

I agree that words use power and I'd never use that word in jest anywhere else, not in a video or on twitter or most likely my personal life.

but if I were in england and I wanted to bum a smoke you'd bet your ass I'd ask for a fag and be entirely without remorse.

This is intellectually dishonest and you know it.

Call someone a fag or a something-fag like on 4chan here in England and you won't last long before the police take an interest or you get flattened. It's a homophobic slur, however you try to spin it.

 

[Corto]

And context on the internet is fluid. If someone has an identifiable persona across the internet, then context it's the entire internet.

 

[EviLore]

If that word is a slur then every person who smokes in england is a monster. Or wait, is that considered fair context? If so why isn't my use of it?

Ex-fucking-cuse me?

 

[EviLore]

I don't need to hear any of your disingenuous bullshit about cigarettes in England. If you call someone a fag over there you're not calling them a cigarette, just like anywhere else. Does your posting on 4chan clash so hard with your carefully constructed internet persona about peace and love and friendship that you're scrambling for a solution? Because you're laying it on pretty thick at the moment.

 

[ibyea]

If that word is a slur then every person who smokes in england is a monster. Or wait, is that considered fair context? If so why isn't my use of it?

I agree that words use power and I'd never use that word in jest anywhere else, not in a video or on twitter or most likely my personal life.

but if I were in england and I wanted to bum a smoke you'd bet your ass I'd ask for a fag and be entirely without remorse.

You know, people who use slurs don't have to be monsters. People who use slurs are regular people like you and me, with deeply entrenched cultural memes that they may not be aware of, but have. The world is not divided into good and evil, with people who use slurs being automatically evil. People are capable of being pretty decent to one another and at the same time perpetuate bigotry.

 

[zeldablue]

Yes. It's very important to know people come in shades of grey. Not only that, but they show different shades to different groups. And they may not even be aware of any of the bad things they do.

It's important to not judge or shame, but rather find out why it is that people are okay with harming certain groups (either passively or aggressively) but not others.

Like I said, the quickest way to find your shadow is to figure out what makes you the most angry. Whatever makes you the angriest...is the source of something that is probably deeply internalized.

 

[Marcel]

Take it to PM.

 

[not_so_special]

Am I the only person here who is not impressed by that conversation? I expected at least unjustified accusations of sexism, but that is not what actually happened there. I feel like I miss the part where that conversation becomes actually abusive.

oh come on,she is treating him like shit,have you hear of innocent until proven guilty?

 

[not_so_special]

This seems to be a pretty reasonable discussion between two people, one of whom had at the time been accused of sexually harassing members of his staff.

I'd be interested to hear what you meant by double standards.

.

for me double standars is when she wants others to dont comment about her case ( she has the right) but at the same time is doing the same

reasonable? excuse me? she is acussing him of everything and treating him like a pile of shit

the only reasonable part is the guy being polite to her


i dont mind about zoe sexual life,i have read everything about the case,her logs,etc its easy to see zoe have issues ( she confirmed herself to be a patological liar) and i condene every nutjob to harass her on intenet with insults and threats

but having said that i still think zoe quinn its not the inoccent person a lot of you think she is,and thats the thing that disturbs me,i want to side with the good guys here,but everywhere i look i see shady things and a lot ot crazy people making a lot of noise

 

[The Technomancer]

You know, people who use slurs don't have to be monsters. People who use slurs are regular people like you and me, with deeply entrenched cultural memes that they may not be aware of, but have. The world is not divided into good and evil, with people who use slurs being automatically evil. People are capable of being pretty decent to one another and at the same time perpetuate bigotry.

You see the same thing with people reacting to Sarkeesian's videos as if she's saying that because they play a game with sexist elements they're now horrible people, despite her repeatedly saying the exact opposite of that.

 

[SwissLion]

for me double standars is when she wants others to dont comment about her case ( she has the right) but at the same time is doing the same

reasonable? excuse me? she is acussing him of everything and treating him like a pile of shit

the only reasonable part is the guy being polite to her

In one case, a party was accused of a pretty serious crime, and what she's actually doing is trying to explain to him somewhat abrasively, how some people might be made uncomfortable by certain language.

In her case, a bitter ex spilled entirely irrelevant to anything details about her personal life, and she has been getting mercilessly harassed and driven from her home.

One of these things is not like the other.

It's not a double standard. It's a different standard, for a very different situation.

 

[robovanburen]

for me double standars is when she wants others to dont comment about her case ( she has the right) but at the same time is doing the same

"Her case"? She's not on trial for anything. Wardell, however, was being sued.

 

[Corpekata]

Video from Youtuber itsAliceDuh in which someone at a publisher sexually harrasses them in exchange for access to a game. Complete with dick pic. NSFW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JsYab06atM#t=441

 

[BronsonLee]

As someone who just got into a random Twitter fight over the spitefunding stuff from a couple days ago...

This shit is a wash now.

 

[Mesoian]

As someone who just got into a random Twitter fight over the spitefunding stuff from a couple days ago...

This shit is a wash now.

It's BEEN a wash. It's officially a quagmire.

 

[Mesoian]

Video from Youtuber itsAliceDuh in which someone at a publisher sexually harrasses them in exchange for access to a game. Complete with dick pic. NSFW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JsYab06atM#t=441

She's more patient than I am, I would have put that guy, his company, and his current project on blast. That's fucking unacceptable.

 

[Pyccko]

Video from Youtuber itsAliceDuh in which someone at a publisher sexually harrasses them in exchange for access to a game. Complete with dick pic. NSFW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JsYab06atM#t=441

whaaaaat the fuuuuuck.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Kind of wish she named the publisher. Whoever would hire that person probably needs to be shamed for their blindspots, even if they do take care of it.

 

[Corto]

I saw that video retweeted by Mike Bithel. It's disgusting. Hope the company deals with this as swiftly as possible.

 

[marrec]

Kind of wish she named the publisher. Whoever would hire that person probably needs to be shamed for their blindspots, even if they do take care of it.

I think I agree with his point in the video. The Pub may not know what this guy is doing and he's giving them a chance to deal with it privately. The Publisher should name and shame this guy and apologize for his conduct as soon as possible.

If they don't, hopefully he outs them at that point.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I think I agree with her point in the video. The Pub may not know what this guy is doing and she's giving them a chance to deal with it privately. The Publisher should name and shame this guy and apologize for his conduct as soon as possible.

If they don't, hopefully she outs them at that point.

I think there's too much temptation to just deal with it quietly and, unfortunately, she lives in a world where she'd probably bring down a downpour of harassment if she elevated it beyond that. Her best shield would be to make a big deal about it from the getgo, because it is exactly that, a huge deal with specific people involved.

I think it should be public knowledge and clearly embarrassing to the publisher so no one can go around acting like they wouldn't need to worry about it in their own house.

 

[Corpekata]

Probably worth pointing out that itsAliceduh is a guy. Common mistake, as even Bithel made it (and apologized profusely). He gets it a lot it seems. Would not doubt it if the publisher assumed the same thing though.

Anyways, the publisher, given the stuff he reviews and the context mentioned in the video (surprised it had a publisher), is probably a mid tier one like Devolver , Paradox, or Curve studios, so I can see why he doesn't want to throw the game under the bus quite yet, as they often aren't very involved in some of their games.

 

[EmiPrime]

Quick heads up: itsALICEduh is a guy.

 

[marrec]

Probably worth pointing out that itsAliceduh is a guy. Common mistake, as even Bithel made it (and apologized profusely). He gets it a lot it seems.

Quick heads up: itsALICEduh is a guy.

The name triggered my internal biases I guess :lol

 

[tiredheadcrab]

That's the thing. I can't think of a single dev who has actually said that they found the work of Sarkeesian or whatever other social critic to be an attack or an act of censorship against them. They know full well that they possess the power to listen to or ignore these critics however they like. All of the outcry is from players who are scared that developers might listen to the critics

Right. I know there are devs who value that criticism and thats good. Druckman does apparently and so does Tim Schafer. Both are excellent developers. But the post was right on something that sex and violence sells. I mean look at True Detective. I was re watching the season on HBO, and wow does that channel and its writers push for the oddest stuff I have seen on TV.

I can imagine when you are the project lead on a big game like The Witcher 3, you are getting feedback from all different people. In the end you certainly wont please everybody, but you will please your core fanbase (maybe).

Although ill admit i have friends that i studied game design with and they have been very vocal about how they feel like the industry left them behind in the 90's. I can understand that very well, but thats a complicated issue for them to sort out.