Nice, looking forward to them!
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Gametrailers Thread: Good Night and Good Game
- Thread starter Hasney
- Start date
Barajas_201
Member
Oh man that Bowser game was intense, Kyle should do more things like that for future tiebreakers.
About Kyle's (nonsensical) shitting on Steam Sales:
No PS2 game is ever worth 15$.. unless it is.
Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them, and trying to impose your own personal price estimations on things, as absolutely objectively, is silly.
Rogue Galaxy is worth 0$ to me, meaning if it was up on the store for 1$, i wouldn't pay that; however i was happy to pay 60$ for Bloodborne (actually paid more, because of $ --> exchange).
How much is a diamond ring worth? Even considering artificial scarcity to keep the price high, people pay thousands of dollars for one.
And sure, you can argue about craftmanship and material and production costs 'till you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, all your hard work doesn't mean a thing if i'm not interested in the final product enough to pay what you're asking (whether you're selling at cost or not).
This also applies to relatively nebulous things (how much is a drawing worth? How much is an hour of my time drawing a picture for you worth?)
So both the idea that Vice City is now worth 15$, and it isn't, are true, and not true, depending on the end user.
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Nobody is forcing CDProject to "devalue" (as Kyle puts it) Witcher 3 with a sale, if they do is because they feel the proposition is worth it, and because they want more people to buy and play their game (possibly with further returns in the long run).
Meanwhile, someone who didn't think W3 was worth 60$, finally found their matching price, which they were willing to wait some time to get.
No PS2 game is ever worth 15$.. unless it is.
Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them, and trying to impose your own personal price estimations on things, as absolutely objectively, is silly.
Rogue Galaxy is worth 0$ to me, meaning if it was up on the store for 1$, i wouldn't pay that; however i was happy to pay 60$ for Bloodborne (actually paid more, because of $ --> exchange).
How much is a diamond ring worth? Even considering artificial scarcity to keep the price high, people pay thousands of dollars for one.
And sure, you can argue about craftmanship and material and production costs 'till you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, all your hard work doesn't mean a thing if i'm not interested in the final product enough to pay what you're asking (whether you're selling at cost or not).
This also applies to relatively nebulous things (how much is a drawing worth? How much is an hour of my time drawing a picture for you worth?)
So both the idea that Vice City is now worth 15$, and it isn't, are true, and not true, depending on the end user.
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Nobody is forcing CDProject to "devalue" (as Kyle puts it) Witcher 3 with a sale, if they do is because they feel the proposition is worth it, and because they want more people to buy and play their game (possibly with further returns in the long run).
Meanwhile, someone who didn't think W3 was worth 60$, finally found their matching price, which they were willing to wait some time to get.
RabbitNoir
Neo Member
Question for Your The One Who Started This Conversation-
(if these are even accepted from here I don't know)
I'm currently replaying Demons souls after completing Bloodborne and the grimy world of the first souls game with all it's muddy textures and rough edges feels far more believable to me than the world of Bloodborne, which boasts far more refined graphics which to my eyes are overly detailed and off-puttingly shiny. I worry that as games look better and better and their worlds start to look more detailed than even ours, the worlds start to lose credibility. Is this something that bothers you, and if the answer is yes how do you deal with these feelings in a review situation?
(if these are even accepted from here I don't know)
I'm currently replaying Demons souls after completing Bloodborne and the grimy world of the first souls game with all it's muddy textures and rough edges feels far more believable to me than the world of Bloodborne, which boasts far more refined graphics which to my eyes are overly detailed and off-puttingly shiny. I worry that as games look better and better and their worlds start to look more detailed than even ours, the worlds start to lose credibility. Is this something that bothers you, and if the answer is yes how do you deal with these feelings in a review situation?
TC McQueen
Member
I think what bugs me more is that fact that a lot of people (including Bosman) don't realize that Steam's probably the only big name digital retailer that behaves like it actually knows what the heck is going on with the media market. There's a glut of supply, extending back decades to centuries for some media, and most of it has artificially inflated prices on digital copies, even decades after they were initially produced physically. A lot of this stuff just isn't worth that much anymore, so it has to be cheaper in order to compete with newer/better stuff.
You're sort of talking about the "uncanny valley". The thing is, art design will always trump technology.
It's the reason why games like MGS or FF7 are still playable today. Because Devs didnt try tp make things as realistic as possible, they adhered to their game's vibe over technical prowess (however, these games did also display insane technical prowess).
With your point about Demon's Souls being more believable or authentic than Bloodborne, I think that's purely subjective. Whilst Demon's Souls is a cult classic that still stands up today, Bloodborne was an incredible believable world with incredible art direction.
And i think that sort of ties in with the concept of subjective value i was talking about.
In a world where you can blink and 50 new cool things to do, have been created (TV, movies, games, comics, music, whatever) things are gonna lose a lot of value for people.
Moreover, games age terribly, honestly, compared to movies and other forms of media.
This is not true for all games, as some aged more gracefully than others (say, Super Mario World) but it is true in general, and it's surely true for GTA Vice City.
And people expect to be able to essentially see older films for free on TV every day, so it's not absurd to consider 15$ for a badly aged 2002 game, too high.
And as a disclaimer, Vice City was one of my favorite games when it came out.
RabbitNoir
Neo Member
I do subjectively prefer Demons' Souls to Bloodborne but I think the improved tools From Software had to make Bloodborne changed the way they went about making that game.
I like Bloodborne a lot, but it's world feels to me like picturesque concept art rendered with a kind of harmful perfectionist mentality. Every model, no matter how dark or disgusting in concept, is overly detailed with a kind of smooth sheen so that it ends up feeling manufactured and false. Some of the creatures in the game are really horrific in concept but their disfigurement, their imperfection, is too immaculately realised and I don't fear them like I feel I should. I'm sure that in the future more developers will be able push graphics to a point where the in game images they produce replicate the exact images they have in their heads, which sounds fantastic but ultimately hurts the grounded feel of a Souls type game which I think needs some compromise to succeed.
I think it's compromise which made PT look so stunning and the Kojima comment Bloodworth referred to where he said that they dumbed down the graphics to replicate the capability of an indie game frustrated me when I originally heard it, as I thought it meant that the final game's graphics would be overdone and ruin the believability which made PT such a frightening game.
TheAbsolution
Member
Does anybody know what the intro song to GT Time is?
I want it. It's so catchy.
I want it. It's so catchy.
Don Draper's Hat
Member
I've always wanted to know what the piano music is that plays at the end of The Final Bosman. I really like that music.
There must be somewhere for us to find out?
Where's Ian been lately? He hasn't become depressed since Elyse left has he?
I believe Ian is off for a week or two.
RabbitNoir
Neo Member
Disneyland
Brad Grenz
Member
Kyle wasn't shitting on Steam sale prices. He was pointing out that it's a fallacy to compare MSRP pricing on one marketplace to deep discount pricing at another. PSN runs lots of sales, too. A number of PSN sales this year have actually been lower than the same game has ever gone for on steam, GOG or the Humble Store. Tales from the Borderlands was $3.75 on PS4. I bought The Witcher 3 for $22.50 on PSN. And if we're gonna talk about the PS2 games being overpriced how can we ignore the fact that all the Star Wars #PS2PS4 titles that launched this week are either $4.99 or $2.50?
So while $15 may be the regular price of Rogue Galaxy on PS4, but it can, and certainly will, be sold at a discount at some point. This is no different than a hundred Steam games that are regularly $14.99 that people have decided not to buy until it goes on sale.
But I do think he's totally right that the attitude some people have where they believe a well made 60 hour RPG being sold for the price of a 3D movie ticket constitutes a ripoff is totally poisonous. I hope they enjoy the F2P dystopia that belief will spawn.
ShaoranWright
Member
Smug Bloodworth IS THE BEST xD
And
I'm 100% with Kyle for the reasons Brad gave here.
And
I'm 100% with Kyle for the reasons Brad gave here.
So, best expansion is between Old Hunters and Hearts of Stone right? I'd have to give it to Hearts of Stone.
Edit: Oh, just heard that it's more of what has been added to the game as a whole. Well, I'd most definitely give that to Driveclub then but I highly doubt thats winning anything.
Edit: Oh, just heard that it's more of what has been added to the game as a whole. Well, I'd most definitely give that to Driveclub then but I highly doubt thats winning anything.
Give me a break, man.
That 60 hours RPG is not worth the money, if people don't want to buy it for that price.
What, people are supposed to buy shit even when they don't see the value in it, because someone else does? Again, nobody is forcing sales on anyone, and if a 2 dollar phone game is giving someone the same amount of enjoyment than a multimillion dollar RPG, so much so that they don't want to pay 58$ premium for that quality difference, than they shouldn't, and it means that massive RPG, overshot the size of its potential audience.
But then Witcher 3 sold at normal price, and sold millions of copies, on PC too, so people are willing to pay to get what they want.
It's not about being a rip off or not, it's about what you're willing to pay for it.
Personally i have no clue why anyone would pay more than 5 dollars for something like Vice City, because to me that game aged like milk in a sunny day, and the only value it has left is purely nostalgic.
But if someone is willing to pay 15$, or 30$, or 200$ for it, more power to them.
There's people paying hundreds of dollars to have a mint condition copies of something you could have for far cheaper digitally, after all, so clearly value is a very subjective matter.
And it's R* we're talking about, not some indie developer who can't compete with the big guys, too.
Basically: If people wait for Steam Sales, is not because they have been poisoned, it's because the offer for good things has increased, the competition has gone way up, and a game isn't worth what it was before.
Just because you think something is worth 60$, that is not true for everyone, and if they can't have that one game for less, they'll do something else and be just as happy.
And it'll be one lost sale, whether you're willing to lower the price that is up to you, but being mad at the consumer because it doesn't buy your thing at your conditions, it's silly.
Brad Grenz
Member
You're ignoring the cost side of the equation. If people increasingly convince themselves that the engineering and artistry involved with making games has no value just because the distribution costs online has effectively reached zero, the end result will be developers spending less on making the games good for a market that won't put its money where its mouth is.
But the thing is, people aren't "convincing themselves".
There's a very practical side to what (subjective) value you attribute to artistry and craftsmanship.
It's what separates paying 60$ for Bloodborne, and paying 60$ for Candy Crush.
The work that went into the first one makes me be willing to pay that premium, not because i want to reward FROM on principle (even though on some level i do) but because i know i will derive that much more enjoyment from it on a pragmatic level.
If Candy Crush were to cost 60$, there's no way i would buy it, because the value proposition would be off.
By the same logic, if people are less and less willing to pay 60$ for a new game, it probably means that their priorities have shifted (even just partially, which ties into the idea of added competition from other mediums) and that games are not a the top of the list anymore.
If a future of just F2P shitty games is ahead of us (and i doubt it, since people were declaring consoles dead, until the PS4 sold a shitton of units) it'll just mean that people's interests will have shifted elsewhere, and games will have to adapt or die.
This isn't something unique to videogames, markets evolve, change and, sometimes, die, as people's interests change and shift around.
All that said, i think videogames are a growing business, and perfectly fine.
Infact, i think they're better than ever nowadays, in terms of variety and offering.
AgentChris
Member
Loved that GT Time. They rarely give a topic it's due time and usually rush through the segments like nothing. But that Kojima talk was damn good. Love how Ben articulates his thoughts.
GamingOblivion
Banned
I love that piano music so much. Hell, I love most their music. Bloodworth, where can we find most of GT's music?
Supermanisdead
Member
weird, i hated gt time this week. anytime they talk about sales, i'm just like... ResidentSleeper ResidentSleeper ResidentSleeper ResidentSleeper ResidentSleeper
Look, I think free market capitalism sucks too, but unless you're in here arguing for Full Communism Now (which I would support, but would seem like a wasted effort), I don't know what you want.
Under our current economic system, it's fundamental that consumers have no obligation to buy shit they don't want or think isn't worth the money, and developers have no right to get paid for the work they do or even to continue existing. Nothing has inherent value, nothing is worth more than what people are willing to pay for it.
Supermanisdead
Member
Huber exposed.
RabbitNoir
Neo Member
Who?
RabbitNoir
Neo Member
a
Brad Grenz
Member
I'm just saying people should stop acting like such mizers towards their chosen hobby.
TC McQueen
Member
In this economy?
TheDarkKnight774
Member
Really good start to the playthrough. Although since Ben is the only one who hasn't played it, he should be the main controller player. Once he moved it to Kyle his attention on the game waned and got distracted. And I kept wanting Ben to not miss anything good on
Hydrophobic
Member
Glad to see the playthrough is up on YouTube now.
It bothered me a bit that ben kept getting distracted and wasn't looking at the screen throughout the stream. Kyle's style of playing (watching him jump at invisible walls repeatedly in several other streams) gets annoying after a while, but I'm probably being nitpicky.
Ben said that he'd like another game made by squareenix, but the a fair amount of the team that worked on mario rpg ended upgoing to nintendo and now are the ones that work on the mario and luigi rpgs.
Good stream overall but seemed like the game wasn't getting their full attention.
I don't know about you, but i don't "choose" one hobby.
But sure, i'll drop more money on videogames than i'll do on pottery or what have you, though it's sort of an organic process, which is really what i was getting at, i guess.
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
Are any shows airing this week, or is it all awards until 2016? I know GT Time and GT Live are done.
I think it's all awards, but Bosman and Huber were talking about coming in for some streaming, although I can't remember if they talked specifics about the schedule. Huber apparently gets a whole 'awards' day to himself, so I guess that qualifies has Huber (mega)Hype.
Yeah I guess, but I'm fine with that. I mean, my JRPG OCD is totally telling me that they should be jumping on every shelf and bed for hidden treasure boxes, but really, it's a laid back game for a laid back stream. I'm much happier watching that sort of thing and just talking general JRPGish stuff than having them turn around to go back every time chat tells them they missed a chest with an ether in it.
Can't wait to see them get into the minigames. SMRPG has the GOAT minigames.
RabbitNoir
Neo Member
The year isn't complete without the bossy awards.
And the winner is...
And the winner is...
Riptide GP2
There's a christmas special mandatory update as well apparently.
Speaking of MU, those awards were something else.
Happy
won best 2012 game re-released in 2015, that was quite the packed field.
That's the point of their JRPG streams really, play a cool game while discussing whatever and interacting with the chat for much longer than a normal 1 hour stream
Speaking of MU, those awards were something else.
Happy
Yakuza 5
That's the point of their JRPG streams really, play a cool game while discussing whatever and interacting with the chat for much longer than a normal 1 hour stream
The best part of the last mandatory update episode was ben's k-pop comment
I guess I just expected the one who was playing to be looking at the screen more while the other(s) would read out chat so they all could respond. Like I mentioned earlier I'm probably being too nitpicky and should just re-assess my expectations.
I understand that and I like the interaction with chat. There were just several instances where both people's eyes were on their phones reading chat and we were left looking at a still screen for 30 or more seconds.
I guess I just expected the one who was playing to be looking at the screen more while the other(s) would read out chat so they all could respond. Like I mentioned earlier I'm probably being too nitpicky and should just re-assess my expectations.
Super Mario RPG on eShop this week! (Wii U VC, Europe)
Huh, what a coincidence.
Huh, what a coincidence.
Backdoor shady deals 
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