Gears 5 Is 'Grounded in Diversity' Says Director as Players Praise LGBT, Disability Representation

Rolling_Start

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Looks like those pride flags are making for some spirited competitive clashes already! :messenger_tears_of_joy:

all the people saying "does it really hurt the game" probably super quiet when others complain that a protag is a white male
I'm perfectly happy to say that I don't mind a white male protagonist, and that I'm not bothered by pride flags in the game. If someone wanted a "straight male" flag in there then that wouldn't upset me either.

There are still places - where the game will be played - where people will be bullied both in real life and online for their gender or sexuality. If this in some small way helps some folks that's cool.

That's not to say this whole discussion doesn't raise some interesting questions. For example, what is so threatening or indignation inducing about straight men? Are there other types of representation that could make the game more inclusive? Why only stop at gender and sexuality? Is the LGBTQ+++ community excluded without flags that someone, somewhere decided represent them??

I don't doubt that the Coalition is earnest in their undertakings. You have to admit, however, that uber-corp MS embracing this as the Pride flag becomes a marketing wallpaper to slap on your shop windows, or wrap around your disposable coffee cups, is slightly awe uninspiring.

It's a great game btw.

Where is my small dick flag?
It's there. Just wait for the Scarlett 8K upres. Digital Foundry will find it in one of their mega magnification shots.
 

-Arcadia-

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Then don't fucking buy it. And don't cry when other people do.
I think other people kind of hit everything wrong with that statement, so I'll just say that I follow that to the letter, when I see a game that's more identity politics than genuine artistic expression.

You greatly overestimate how much I care. Entertainment is ephemeral and easily replaceable. This is a discussion forum, and I'm simply providing criticism of an interesting new industry direction.

There was no emotion, until you brought it in. In the same sense, I wonder if the only person 'crying' here, is you, because we don't all share your opinion.
 

-Arcadia-

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And that's kind of an interesting statement about other people buying in, considering that 'woketrash' tends to range from underperforming, to destroying entire brands.
 
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mckmas8808

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Jesus christ you are unbelievable. You would be the first in line to cry about a game that doesn't check off all your SJW quotas so take your own damn advice if a game doesn't shove all this extreme leftist propaganda down our throats.
Why are you so angry? My goodness lol.

You are lying to yourself and everyone else as to your agenda, you are clearly arguing that being proud of the LGBT group must be represented even in gaming but god forbid you mention you are straight, can't be proud of that!!!!! Look, when i am gaming i just want to kill you, i don't care about your orientation, i don't want to know your orientation. I just want you to know that i hate everyone equally and that i am there to have fun, get my ego on and just have a good time. I don't log onto a game to yet again be reminded of SJW culture bullshit.
You are allowed to be proud of being straight if you want. I'm just 100% sure you wouldn't feel this way if gay pride flags weren't more accepted, but okay. And why is it so bad to know someone's orientation? Some people state what country they are from in their AVIs. Why be upset about this?


Let's see

And then

That one was in response to me saying that if you should be proud to be gay, then you should be proud to be straight as well

If you don't want to give the impression that you're against something, then perhaps you shouldn't make posts that argue against it?
Not to mention that if you're ok with a straight pride flag then what are we even discussing here?
So where did I say some straight pride flag shouldn't be in a game? I was asking why it would be there. I'm not even sure why a straight flag would even be invented. And I'm straight. But I don't care if it's in there. Doesn't matter to me. But yes, the straight pride flag seems silly to me, but that's my opinion.
 
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Katsura

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Why are you so angry? My goodness lol.



You are allowed to be proud of being straight if you want. I'm just 100% sure you wouldn't feel this way if gay pride flags weren't more accepted, but okay. And why is it so bad to know someone's orientation? Some people state what country they are from in their AVIs. Why be upset about this?




So where did I say some straight pride flag shouldn't be in a game? I was asking why it would be there. I'm not even sure why a straight flag would even be invented. And I'm straight. But I don't care if it's in there. Doesn't matter to me. But yes, the straight pride flag seems silly to me, but that's my opinion.
Maybe i misunderstood but i got the distinct feeling that you were against it from your previous posts. If you're not then it's my mistake. My stance is still the same - either include all orientations or don't include any at all. I personally prefer to exclude any such thing that has a political connotation and yes, a transexual pride flag is political. The 18 Tumblr genders even more so. The reason it should be there is the same reason any of the other flags should be there. You don't get to claim to be diverse and inclusive while excluding the largest demographic
 
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mckmas8808

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Maybe i misunderstood but i got the distinct feeling that you were against it from your previous posts. If you're not then it's my mistake. My stance is still the same - either include all orientations or don't include any at all. I personally prefer to exclude any such thing that has a political connotation and yes, a transexual pride flag is political. The 18 Tumblr genders even more so. The reason it should be there is the same reason any of the other flags should be there. You don't get to claim to be diverse and inclusive while excluding the largest demographic
Then you must be against national flags in games too then right?
 

-Arcadia-

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Like Captain Marvel? LOL. Gears 5 will sell just fine without the xenophobes.
You do understand the definition of tends?

Tends. Not the tendies you knock out of your mother’s hands when something is offensive on the internet.

Also, I would prefer that you use my full title of Racist, Equality denying, Islamaphobic, Cis, Homophobe, or REICH for short.

(On a related note, despite this garbage, I think Gears still looks like a really fun game. If I find myself on a platform to own it, I probably will pick it up)
 
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Rolling_Start

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Identifying with, and being identified as, is important for some people.

I don't care so much, but some people do for whatever reason.

I don't think this thread needs to just turn into people bickering tbh.
 
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Katsura

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I'm talking about these flags.





I know and i answered you. Why are you going off on a tangent anyway? Is this another lame attempt at a gotcha moment that will end in a fallacious non-argument? It seems like a waste of time and you people defending those flags sure do seem to have an issue staying on topic
 
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buizel

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Eerrr hardly fucking inclusive, I'm actually the alien race you see in the game and it turns out the game is literally about race genocide.

Wtf Microsoft literally going back to my own planet and unsubbing gold
 

Rolling_Start

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Or just game developers that want to engage and entertain the player?

After all, fictional media are meant to entertain, not preach.
Fictional media can do anything the creator wants it to, just so long as the audience is prepared to engage!

Games can literally do anything, from offering a purely intellectual experience to a purely linear narrative one, to offering a playground for people to interact with each other, to offering some kind of mixture of all or any of these.

Games can have a message or none. They can be about this, or that, or anything. This has always been the case since Space War (depending on how you interpret it!).

After all, fictional media are meant to entertain, not preach.
Fiction is the basis of much of the organised preaching that's taken place in human history, I'm afraid.
 
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Fictional media can do anything the creator wants it to, just so long as the audience is prepared to engage!
And if the audience is not engaged, then the product will not be successful and eventually be canned.

Games can literally do anything, from offering a purely intellectual experience to a purely linear narrative one, to offering a playground for people to interact with each other, to offering some kind of mixture of all or any of these.
Hardly see how this is relevant to what I was saying. Yes, they can technically do anything, but not anything will click with consumers.

Games can have a message or none. They can be about this, or that, or anything. This has always been the case since Space War (depending on how you interpret it!).
Never mentioned messages. My comment mentioned preaching which is a major turn off. People consume media to be entertained, not be told what to think or how to think.

Fiction is the basis of much of the organised preaching that's taken place in human history, I'm afraid.
And yet, the most preachy works of fiction have been the worst performing works *cough* The Last Jedi.
 
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Rolling_Start

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And if the audience is not engaged, then the product will not be successful and eventually be canned.
Or relegated to a dusty shelf in a library...

Hardly see how this is relevant to what I was saying. Yes, they can technically do anything, but not anything will click with consumers.
Absolutely. But what you're doing here is breaking a response to a more specific point point you made: "After all, fictional media are meant to entertain, not preach" into responses that are becoming out of context. Not intentionally mind. I think we're not joining up well in terms of what we're discussing.

Never mentioned messages. My comment mentioned preaching which is a major turn off. People consume media to be entertained, not be told what to think or how to think.
Well preaching is kind of a hardcore message, being driven into your mind like a dick into a pornstar. Ostensibly a dialogue but actually more about delivering a load.

And yet, the most preachy works of fiction have been the worst performing works *cough* The Last Jedi.
Bible has done pretty well for itself the last couple of millennia. Fiction and shared, propagated fiction has a deep seated evolutionary role beyond just "entertaining" in the modern sense.

TLDR: To get back to my original point, fictional media can absolutely be as much, or more, about preaching as entertaining.

And there are some that think media should only be about preaching. And in some cases only in a particular way, with a particular race and / or gender and / or sex as the villain.

This is a real thing, and it sucks.
 
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Absolutely. But what you're doing here is breaking a response to a more specific point point you made: "After all, fictional media are meant to entertain, not preach" into responses that are becoming out of context. Not intentionally mind. I think we're not joining up well in terms of what we're discussing.
The thing is, though, is if the story is boring, no one will care. Doesn't matter if the story has huge messages or not. People will just tune out from boredom.

Well preaching is kind of a hardcore message, being driven into your mind like a dick into a pornstar. Ostensibly a dialogue but actually more about delivering a load.
Well, that's one interesting way to describe it and I don't necessarily disagree, lol.

Bible has done pretty well for itself the last couple of millennia. Fiction and shared, propagated fiction has a deep seated evolutionary role beyond just "entertaining" in the modern sense.
The Bible was sold as word from God, the gateway to getting to Heaven. Basically, it was marketed as a self-help book more than a work of fiction.

TLDR: To get back to my original point, fictional media can absolutely be as much, or more, about preaching as entertaining.
"Can" is vastly different from "In practice".

Also, add into the fact that preaching doesn't come for free. Time, effort, and resources are put into preaching. As a result, a developer that spends significant time and resources into preachy social commentary could've put used that time and resources towards gameplay, systems, music, etc. instead.

This is why we see things like The Last Jedi not being well received or the Gillette commercial being widely disliked. The prioritization of preachy (and often, off-base) social commentary came at the cost of engagement and enjoyment.

And there are some that think media should only be about preaching. And in some cases only in a particular way, with a particular race and / or gender and / or sex as the villain.

This is a real thing, and it sucks.
Definitely agree with this.
 
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Rolling_Start

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The thing is, though, is if the story is boring, no one will care. Doesn't matter if the story has huge messages or not. People will just tune out from boredom.
Yep! Which is why, for example, life and death, heaven and hell are fantastic at stopping the unquestioning from tuning out!

The Bible was sold as word from God, the gateway to getting to Heaven. Basically, it was marketed as a self-help book more than a work of fiction.
True! But that's more about presentation than content, I think...

"Can" is vastly different from "In practice".

Also, add into the fact that preaching doesn't come for free. Time, effort, and resources are put into preaching. As a result, a developer that spends significant time and resources into preachy social commentary could've put used that time and resources towards gameplay, systems, music, etc. instead.
True also! In the case of TLJ the preaching came at the cost of characters, the the lore, in-universe physics, good light sabre fights. None of which paid into the coffers of Disney.

In the case of fiction a-la religion the preaching comes at the cost of either humanity or flexibility, but these can pay off in terms of owning entire populations and gathering incredible wealth and power.

This is why we see things like The Last Jedi not being well received or the Gillette commercial being widely disliked. The prioritization of preachy (and often, off-base) social commentary came at the cost of engagement and enjoyment.
Well yes, that certainly can happen.

I mean, for fucks sake which man who's actually trying to think about life, and people, and what's right and wrong, is going to react positively to having a mega-corp like Gillette that has committed god knows how many wrongs ... patronise them.

Anyway ... we're off topic here, no matter how interesting this conversation is!

I don't think The Coalition mean to patronise anyone. I just think this whole situation is rather more nuanced than flags = inclusion.
 

Jigsaah

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What's with all this intelligent conversation? Bring back the memes.

EDIT:
Also I decided to look up the spectrum of sexualities. I came across this definition

"Neutrois is a term used to describe persons with a null or neutral gender (being neither male nor female), and in some cases, a person who may also seek to reduce signs of their physical sex. The exact definition of neutrois may differ depending on the source. Neutrois is understood as a non-binary gender that can fall under the genderqueer and/or transgender umbrellas, though a neutrois person may identify themselves as agender or genderless rather than neutrois"


........:messenger_neutral::messenger_neutral::messenger_neutral::messenger_neutral:

I mean how are we supposed to be fully inclusive when there are clear redundancies within their own definitions?
 
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mckmas8808

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I know and i answered you. Why are you going off on a tangent anyway? Is this another lame attempt at a gotcha moment that will end in a fallacious non-argument? It seems like a waste of time and you people defending those flags sure do seem to have an issue staying on topic
It's people like yourself that lend the conversation to this direction. You are bothered by something that doesn't include you at all. It's just weird.

Since LGBTQ people were born that way and have no control over it they are being stupid for showing pride right?
People show pride in many things that they had no control over. Again people have pride in the country that they were born in.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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It's people like yourself that lend the conversation to this direction. You are bothered by something that doesn't include you at all. It's just weird.



People show pride in many things that they had no control over. Again people have pride in the country that they were born in.
Again, you can choose your country. It isn't something you have "no control over". Unlike sex.
 

Katsura

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It's people like yourself that lend the conversation to this direction. You are bothered by something that doesn't include you at all. It's just weird.



People show pride in many things that they had no control over. Again people have pride in the country that they were born in.
So it's my fault you're incapable of staying on topic? Ok, sure. How dare i stay on topic and refuse to let you derail the thread. It's just a straight pride flag. Why do you care? You are bothered by people being proud of being straight. It's just weird
 
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mckmas8808

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Again, you can choose your country. It isn't something you have "no control over". Unlike sex.
But you can't choose which country you were born in. 99% of the time that's what people are so-called proud of. The country that they are born in. You can't choose that. That's your heritage. That's your identity and culture for 90+% of people.

So it's my fault you're incapable of staying on topic? Ok, sure. How dare i stay on topic and refuse to let you derail the topic. It's just a straight pride flag. Why do you care? It's just weird
- I don't care about a straight pride flag. You do. If you want to rock that flag fine. I don't care. You are the one that cares about the gay pride flag. That's the point.
- The point about the national flag is that they too can be viewed as political. Can you not understand that?
 
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Katsura

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But you can't choose which country you were born in. 99% of the time that's what people are so-called proud of. The country that they are born in. You can't choose that. That's your heritage. That's your identity and culture for 90+% of people.



- I don't care about a straight pride flag. You do. If you want to rock that flag fine. I don't care. You are the one that cares about the gay pride flag. That's the point.
- The point about the national flag is that they too can be viewed as political. Can you not understand that?
I don't care about a straight pride flag
Your numerous posts in this thread says otherwise
You are the one that cares about the gay pride flag. That's the point
No, i care about equality because i'm not a bigot
The point about the national flag is that they too can be viewed as political. Can you not understand that?
The point is you're comparing apples and oranges. Can you not understand that?
 

mckmas8808

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Your numerous posts in this thread says otherwise

The point is you're comparing apples and oranges. Can you not understand that?
I didn't know a straight pride flag even existed until yesterday lol. Plus how can a gay pride flag be political? There's no politics in that flag.
 

DeepEnigma

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Be proud of actual accomplishments you have achieved, not immutable characteristics. And always remain humble within that pride.
 

Katsura

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I didn't know a straight pride flag even existed until yesterday lol. Plus how can a gay pride flag be political? There's no politics in that flag.
I said a trans flag was political as are the Tumblr gender flags
 
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Trojita

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You should tell their shareholders. I'm sure they'd wanna know that they're just imagining their stocks losing value

You posted a recent 5 day stock timeline that barely moved when Kaepernick's ads came out at the beginning of September last year?
 
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mckmas8808

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Be proud of actual accomplishments you have achieved, not immutable characteristics. And always remain humble within that pride.
To be fair you can't tell other people what they can and can't be proud of. Especially if those people have been discriminated against due to those immutable characteristics.

You posted a recent 5 day stock timeline that barely moved when Kaepernick's ads came out at the beginning of September last year?
It's a known fact that Nike didn't lose money due to keeping Kaepernick signed. And it's also a fact that Nike is making millions of dollars on Kaepernick gear.
 

DeepEnigma

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To be fair you can't tell other people what they can and can't be proud of. Especially if those people have been discriminated against due to those immutable characteristics.
It was just a suggestion. I prefer the content of one's character approach.
 
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To be fair you can't tell other people what they can and can't be proud of. Especially if those people have been discriminated against due to those immutable characteristics.
But how they overcome the discrimination is dependent on the content of their character, so DeepEnigma’s point still stands.