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Gran Turismo 6 • Coming on PS3 Holiday 2013

That's all good, but have they got rid of this shit?

granturismo5_18elymf.jpg

granturismo5_28nqnz.jpg

You still haven't explained how you get it that bad, cause no one else does. There is dithering in SSR near the street lamps for example, never in Tokyo or the Ring, even at night.
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
No, the dithering pattern in the dark areas is something that's a problem.

And dithering can be a sign of hardware issues. My computer started dithering in all dark colors when the GPU was dying. New GPU and problems gone.

Edit: beaten.
 

AznSniper

Member

Also from the interview, there's the explanation for GT6 on PS3 rather than PS4 (for now). They will probably just roll out GT7 instead for PS4 in the following year or so.

Why is Gran Turismo 6 debuting on PS3, rather than PS4?
JR: You had GT1 and GT2 on PS one, GT3 and GT4 on PS2, then there’s GT5 on PS3 and a space next to it. The difference between Gran Turismo and GT2 is unbelievable, but they’re both on the same platform. The difference between GT3 and GT4 is huge. We’re absolutely confident when GT6 comes, you’ll see a big step change up from GT5 too. There’s still a lot of potential on PS3 that a developer like Polyphony can really exploit.
And the other factor is that on PS3 we have an install base of 70 million units. On PS4 on launch day we’ll have an install base of zero units. There’ll be plenty of games to help drive PS4 – not least Driveclub in the racing genre from Evolution Studios, a studio with a fantastic pedigree.
 
Isn't it just some bad PS3/TV setting? I'll take some pics when I get home to show how it looks on mine. It looks like it's supposed to.
Nope. It's the internal renderer. I can easily see it on my monitor, but on my TV, it's not really noticeable. It's still there.

And because you can see it on direct feed shots means it's part of a problem in the renderer. The new game looks like it fixed that because of the expanded HDR.
 
After checking up and messing with settings I can say 100% that my version doesn't look like that.

Sorry to break it to you, but you've got hardware problems.
 

dubc35

Member
From the GT5 thread:

Because HDMI range of RGB.

I am not near my console ATM but I vaguely remember it can be solved by changing either RGB Full Range (HDMI) to Limited or Full and/or something regarding Deep Color/Colour Output (HDMI).

You change something there and the "white dots pixelization" disappear pretty much (not in full).

IMO It has to do with the way how graphics engine at night tracks is handling HDR effects (read: lack of RAM lead to another magical shortcut, same as alpha-effects).

It is more prevalent at plasma screens (I am plasma owner) while many of my LCD-friends have never actually experienced it (at least they didn't know what I was talking about back at the time we were trying to *solve* that issue).
 
Obviously if it happens to some and not others it's not just their renderer. Out comes out of the pipeline is the same for all.

Uh, it only happens on tracks, not the rest of the game. So of course it's their renderer.

I think it's to do with dithering colours to get a bigger range without using floating point.
 
But the same track, the same car, the same location it does not look like that on my screen.

If you want, try copying that screenshot to your ps3 and displaying it on your TV. I don't know if that'll show it but it'll be an interesting test.


Edit: actually those Wax Free screens look ridiculous :lol

I can see the pattern in the Tokyo246 in that section track but I can't get it to look that bad.


It's hard to tell what it truly looks like as the pattern changes each frame, so even things like pixel response time will affect how it appears on different displays.
 
on PS3 we have an install base of 70 million units. On PS4 on launch day we’ll have an install base of zero units.

This is such a ridiculous argument. By that logic you'd never release games for new consoles because the old ones have a bigger install base lol.
Why don't they just admit that it was bad timing because GT5 took longer than expected.
Their priority now is to sell PS4s and no game would help it sell like GT6. But hey, apparently launch games will sell 0 units because there's 0 PS4s.

Anyway, can't wait to see some actual gameplay at E3, we wont be seeing it sooner than that right?
 
After checking up and messing with settings I can say 100% that my version doesn't look like that.

Sorry to break it to you, but you've got hardware problems.

No. I don't I'm 100% sure. I've tested it because I thought I had hardware problems.

Eurogamers, and other websites direct feed shots have that same thing going on.

Even XMB screenshots on custom FW PS3 has them in dark areas.
 

Emwitus

Member
So all this time wax vanilla has been play GT5 on a broken ps3?

m-night-shyamalan_1334621413.jpg


This is such a ridiculous argument. By that logic you'd never release games for new consoles because the old ones have a bigger install base lol.
Why don't they just admit that it was bad timing because GT5 took longer than expected.
Their priority now is to sell PS4s and no game would help it sell like GT6. But hey, apparently launch games will sell 0 units because there's 0 PS4s.

Anyway, can't wait to see some actual gameplay at E3, we wont be seeing it sooner than that right?

How many big first party franchises have launched day 1? That's your answer.
 
This is such a ridiculous argument. By that logic you'd never release games for new consoles because the old ones have a bigger install base lol.
Why don't they just admit that it was bad timing because GT5 took longer than expected.
Their priority now is to sell PS4s and no game would help it sell like GT6. But hey, apparently launch games will sell 0 units because there's 0 PS4s.

There's no better chance to launch a new IP than at launch, so that's a great slot for DRIVECLUB. They've all but said that GT6 is coming to the PS4 as well, but it'll just be a little later. Probably mid-2013. Which will still give the PS4 a boost, and perhaps a bigger than expected boost if they include some sort of GT7 demo.

Anyway, can't wait to see some actual gameplay at E3, we wont be seeing it sooner than that right?

Official gameplay? Probably not, that'll be at E3. We still have more gameplay videos coming from Jordan.
 
So all this time wax vanilla has been play GT5 on a broken ps3?

m-night-shyamalan_1334621413.jpg

The weird part it's his shots are taken with PS3s own capture system so it's something that happens before the output.

But go see any externally captured video and its not like that, nor is it on my TV.
 

dalin80

Banned
The weird part it's his shots are taken with PS3s own capture system so it's something that happens before the output.

But go see any externally captured video and its not like that, nor is it on my TV.

Same, those marks look exactly like my display when skyrim killed my PC's GPU, I have just tried a few premiums in GT5 driving in and out of shadows and get absolutely nothing like that.
 

Angst

Member
The weird part it's his shots are taken with PS3s own capture system so it's something that happens before the output.

But go see any externally captured video and its not like that, nor is it on my TV.
Wow that's horrible! I don't get that on my 2012 42" OLED TV, 32" OLED TV or my 24" LCD monitor.

Have you tried changing HDMI output to full? I did have some issues when I had it set to limited, although nothing as bad as the shots at the top of the page.
 

Perkel

Banned
Nah, it's always existed. I think it has to do with the HDR Levels. Blacks always look like that.

Nope. I am looking at it from same TV which i use for PS3. I see it here but i do not see it on PS3 ingame. Those are not even direct screen grabs since they are not even 720p.

And i don't have different setting for PC and PS3 out. (no change in contrast etc)

And because you can see it on direct feed shots means it's part of a problem in the renderer. The new game looks like it fixed that because of the expanded HDR.

Then explain how can i see it on my tv if those are direct screenshot because i use for my PC and PS3 same TV. Sony KDL40W2000. I don't see it in game but i see it on those "direct" screenshots"

The weird part it's his shots are taken with PS3s own capture system so it's something that happens before the output.

You can't capture screen from inside of car in GT5 on track. IF that is PS3 CFW feature than maybe it captures it when rendering is not yet finished ?
 

Perkel

Banned
Also try to change AA method in options. There should be three options if i remember right so maybe one of them comes with extra post processes that gives this pattern ?

Not IF. It is.

Then he/people should try what i said above. Different AA method in options maybe this is fucking up things.
 
Nope. I am looking at it from same TV which i use for PS3. I see it here but i do not see it on PS3 ingame. Those are not even direct screen grabs since they are not even 720p.

And i don't have different setting for PC and PS3 out. (no change in contrast etc)

Then explain how can i see it on my tv if those are direct screenshot because i use for my PC and PS3 same TV. Sony KDL40W2000. I don't see it in game but i see it on those "direct" screenshots"

Dude, it's a problem with how the HDR is done. No need to get offended. It's getting fixed in GT6.

I have 3 PS3's (Phat and 2 slims), and I've tried it on 2 monitors and 2 different TV's. It's the same on all of them.

I've got FULL RGB and Full White (whatever it's called) turned on.

You can't capture screen from inside of car in GT5 on track. IF that is PS3 CFW feature than maybe it captures it when rendering is not yet finished ?
XMB screenshot directly grabs the output frame and converts it to JPEG. What you see is what you get.

READ THIS
Because HDMI range of RGB.

I am not near my console ATM but I vaguely remember it can be solved by changing either RGB Full Range (HDMI) to Limited or Full and/or something regarding Deep Color/Colour Output (HDMI).

You change something there and the "white dots pixelization" disappear pretty much (not in full).

IMO It has to do with the way how graphics engine at night tracks is handling HDR effects (read: lack of RAM lead to another magical shortcut, same as alpha-effects).

It is more prevalent at plasma screens (I am plasma owner) while many of my LCD-friends have never actually experienced it (at least they didn't know what I was talking about back at the time we were trying to *solve* that issue).
 

Perkel

Banned
Dude, it's a problem with how the HDR is done. No need to get offended. It's getting fixed in GT6.

I have 3 PS3's (Phat and 2 slims), and I've tried it on 2 monitors and 2 different TV's. It's the same on all of them.

I've got FULL RGB and Full White (whatever it's called) turned on.


XMB screenshot directly grabs the output frame and converts it to JPEG. What you see is what you get.

READ THIS

I am not offended. Simply i am trying to say that this doesn't happen on my TV nor does it happen commonly on other people TVs.

Have you tried different AA in options ?

I don't have any dithering going on. This thread is the first i hear about something like this.
Metal murphy also showed beneath that he also does not have those patterns.

I believe that you have those (because without it you wouldn't post about it)
 
Credit to Ridox2JZGTE on GTplanet for finding this

I was listening to this week's Midweek Motorsport (Series 8 Episode 19) on Radio Le Mans and they briefly talked about GT6. They were at the Silverstone event and the Nurburgring 24h, so what they said could be accurate. Nick Daman had this to say about the new tire physics:

(Polyphony) are really moving ever more into the hardcore sim environment... They are actually now modeling things like sidewall flex and actually looking at the way different tires would grip the road; be they old fashion cross plys; be they modern radials; be they slicks... If you've got a car that's running on old fashion high-sidewall tires, even if it's got the same amount of grip, it's not going to handle the same way. And they've modeled all of that... They've remodeled the tracks. They've taken 10 billion [laughs] photographs, so when it comes out it will be photo realistic -- as much as it can being on the (Playstation 3), and I'm sure on the 4 they will be almost photo realistic...You can get new wheels for (a car). You get the new wheels, it's not to make it look different, it will make it handle different with the new wheels... (adding larger diameter wheels) will change the way it handles.

http://community.us.playstation.com...eral/GT6-News-Media-and-Comments/m-p/40435659

Here's the podcast

http://audio.rpix.org.uk/mwm/8/mwm8-19.mp3

The GT6 talk starts at 1:55:20.
 
He does, quite well actually :p I'm sure what he meant was that my/our TV is the one mitigating the issue, and that would show it being the case.


How would displaying a jpg of his screen capture with those marks on it on your screen make the marks disappear? As though your TV has some built in algorithm that detects unusual picture defeats and removes them.
 

amar212

Member
Good, I hope they can adjust the grip so you can have period accurate tyres or modern tyres on the cars.

Installing Comfort Hard or Medium (N1 or N2) tyres is mandatory for all old cars. You just have to understand the priciple of compounds in GT games (another thing that Polyphony forgeot to explain in GT5 despite all previous games had it explained and Prologue even came with Recommendation list).

But yes, I agree. The cars should be delivered with appropriate compounds as well as proper brake bias. Also, all details fron that podcast are probably the best GT6 news so far.

GT Trivia: in PSone GT games all driving assists (TCS, ABS in form of Brake Assitant) were in fact Tuning Parts - players had to actually buy them and install them on cars if they wanted to drive cars that way.
 
I get that dithering. Seen it on two TV's from two PS3's, usually in dark races. Not always too noticeable but definately there. Don't think it's a hardware issue as it did it on a brand new PS3.
Anyway, hopefully it'll be gone in GT6.
 

prarts

Member
The pixelation itself is no sort of gpu characteristic, it's just down to the method they used to draw lots of smoke very efficiently. There are ways to tidy it up, at a cost.
I thought they lowered the resolution of the effects to cram more in rather than it ever being a hardware quirk.
Probably You are right, but I have seen exactly the same pixelation with other PS3 games, running on different engines (Dead Nation for example), so it must be common RSX (?) problem.

That's all good, but have they got rid of this shit?
Never ever experienced this on my setup - it would be hard to focus on driving with this shit. Maybe it`s some sort of incompatibility problem (HDCP) or configuration (HDMI in/out)?
 

Dead Man

Member
Installing Comfort Hard or Medium (N1 or N2) tyres is mandatory for all old cars. You just have to understand the priciple of compounds in GT games (another thing that Polyphony forgeot to explain in GT5 despite all previous games had it explained and Prologue even came with Recommendation list).

But yes, I agree. The cars should be delivered with appropriate compounds as well as proper brake bias. Also, all details fron that podcast are probably the best GT6 news so far.

GT Trivia: in PSone GT games all driving assists (TCS, ABS in form of Brake Assitant) were in fact Tuning Parts - players had to actually buy them and install them on cars if they wanted to drive cars that way.

I forgot all about that, good times. But yeah, I don't know anything about the compounds, I tend to stick with sport tyres unless I have an actual race car, I'll try out the comforts now :)
 

prarts

Member
No. I don't I'm 100% sure. I've tested it because I thought I had hardware problems.
Yes, it is their renderer. Yes, it`s noticeable on any PS3/TV/copy of the game lol (just go on some night track and crank up brightness and contrast no tv - You will see it as constantly moving dark pixels).
BUT HOLY SHIT what I`m seeing on my screen is not even remotely close to those screens - like 95% less visible.
 

amar212

Member
I forgot all about that, good times. But yeah, I don't know anything about the compounds, I tend to stick with sport tyres unless I have an actual race car, I'll try out the comforts now :)

Quoting my "Tyre Compounds in GT5" post again, long read but it helps understand the philosophy behind everything.

Gran Turismo 2 was the first GT game that introduced adequate suspension and tyre physics in the series (first GT was very simplified in that area, despite being above majority of other games backthan). With that came the first fundamental introduction of selection of tyres as we know it today, but in the slightly different form. We had Sports, Racing Slicks, Dirt and Control tyres.

Control tyres were the first step towards mimicing the *real-life* tyre slip/grip in the series, which is absolutely described in both in-game explanation and in game-manual. None of the cars were initially equipped with the Control-compound but player could do it for himself in order to experience the more *accurate* feel of the car. As manual says, Control Tyres are tyres which are as close as possible in characteristics as real tyres... (player) can experience a simulation of real driving which does not feel like a game. Those tyres require quicker braking, careful steering and delicate work with the accelerator. Those are tyres specific for the surfaced roads.

Gran Turismo 3 renamed Control compound into Simulation, clearly explaining how those tyres offer only slightly more grip and are only suitable for professional drivers.. Same logic for compounds remained, with offering Sports, Race and Dirt tyres for *normal* selection.

Both Control and Simulation tyres in both games were always very cheap - same philosophy that remained later for GT4 and GT5 - in order to make them accessible for interested drivers in any moment. Also, no cars actually came equipped with those - road cars were always equipped with Sport compound while race cars were equipped with the Race Hard compound - logic we still have today.

Gran Turismo 4 was the first game in the series that introduced Standard/Comfort (if I recall, US game was naming them Standard, while EU release called them Comfort) compound as *normal* selective compound with 1-2-3 range (hard/medium/soft or as GT4 was naming it, Economy/Luxury/Road), again with lowest price possible (Standard tyres carried no price - 0 Cr - in order to make the fully accessible at any moment). When you were purchasing the car (road vehicles) there was a special disclaimer after each purchase that said ...(cars are) fitted with the Sports Medium for circuit racing. For factory spec purchase Comfort (Standard) compound.

GT5:prologue introduced *Japanese* naming for compounds for the first time in the western-releases, as famous "N"/"S"/"R"/1/2/3/ logic. N1 were Comfort Hard, N3 were Comfort Soft, etc. Also, in the in-game manual - that majority never actually read properly - there was extremely detailed explanation of tyre-types and logic of their use. All cars were coming equipped with the Sport Hard/Medium compound by default (Racing for those few race cars), but with following explanation presented in the options:


Also, GT5:prologue went even further and gave the list of fitting-recommendations for various *types* of the cars, covering majority of similar models in game depending of production year/power/drivetrain type/weight:


Gran Turismo 5 continued the same philosophy/principle where Comfort compound is the one that corresponds with almost all *factory-spec* vehicles, with notable exclusions of some supercar models that would probably be equipped with Sports Hard compound as their factory-spec tyre, but those are minority.

Greatest *issue* of GT5 is omission to actually present that philosophy in any of game-manuals: either game-manual, in-game digital manual and even in Apex book that came with Collector's Edition.

However, in some points game clearly implies such selections, such as Comfort/Soft tyre-compounds being mandatory in some Seasonals, etc. But all those *implications* are unfortunately very vague.

We have another clear example of above with post on Japanese GT official site (Polyphony was the one that noted that) where the Japanese finals for FT86 championship were driven on Comfort Hard (N1) compound:

The virtual 86 was fitted with N1 tires (comfort hard) that simulated the grip of the Michelin Primacy compound.

To conclude, Gran Turismo series is very clear and transparent about the way tyres are fitted by default on the cars. GT5 *issue* of not making it clear enough as in previous games is probably one of the 346 small details that are missing from GT5's explanations and that have to be determined by the players themselves (such as brake-bias, LSD settings or whatnot).
 
Probably You are right, but I have seen exactly the same pixelation with other PS3 games, running on different engines (Dead Nation for example), so it must be common RSX (?) problem.

It's a common workaround for transparencies being slow, in GT5 they draw all the smoke/spray to a 256x144 image.
There's actually a way to draw it low res like that, but then redraw the blocky edge parts in full resolution, which works out faster than drawing it all high res, will be interesting to see if they've fixed it like that.
 

prarts

Member
It's a workaround for transparencies being slow, they draw all the smoke to a 256x144 image.
There's actually a way to draw it low res like that, but then redraw the blocky parts in higher resolution, which works out faster than drawing it all higher res, will be interesting to see if they've fixed it like that.
I hope they will be like in GT5 minus pixelation: seeing barrier shadows casted realistically on smoke cloud in real time was mind blowing.
 
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