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[shandy706]

Why do people keep coming back to MMO analogies? Motor racing is a sport. Compare it to other sports games.

This is absolutely silly.

Racing games have involved racing to unlock stuff for a long time.

They're in no way comparable to Madden or FIFA...or any other "sports" game.

The only mode you may be able to compare it to is a "be a player" mode. Where you select or play as one player AND MUST EARN OR PROVE YOURSELF to move up in teams. You can't just jump into any team at any point, typically, in those modes.

Even using that "comparison" is silly though.

 

[twobear]

I view this as pretty contrite, to be honest, and I'm surprised people think he's being evasive. He says the goal wasn't to make non-paying players feel like they've missed out, but he admits that no matter what their goal was if the players do feel they've missed out, then that's a bad thing. I think to the extent that he's reaching at all, it's a product of being in the bubble rather than malice.

The only thing I suspect he feels remorseful about is that they didn't do a better job of hiding their true intentions. It took, what, two days for people to cop on to the fact that they'd substantially redesigned the game in order to funnel players towards microtransactions?

There is an enormous number of ways that they could have made players feel special and unique for having earned their cars, and catered towards people who don't care for the career, without gutting many of the features of the game and replacing them with cynical attempts at manipulating paying customers into splashing more cash.

 

[Killing_Joke]

there's a small group of players that can't be bothered to do things and they have disposable income

What kind of thinking is this? The game is sixty fucking US dollars. Make the game F2P if want to pull shit like this.

 

[turnbuckle]

Exactly.

 

[LOLCats]

I'm not sure you understand what he is saying... He claims the option exists for those rich dudes that only want to do sims and not play the career but they did not make any adjustments to sell tokens, for the same reasons you cited.

I can understand if you don't believe him, but he is explicitly stating the opposite to what you claim

No i believe i understand. These changes were to appease the rich dudes. the 1% who felt 3$ cars were not exclusive so lets make them 50$ each.

 

[ruttyboy]

If we take what he says at face value, that means that he was soooo stupid as to not anticipate people misreading his actions. So either he's a fucking moron, or a fucking liar, whichever.

Also, why does it always seem to be overwhelmingly Juniors who defend this shit?

 

[plagiarize]

If their intention was really to save time for people who didn't want to do the grind, they wouldn't have removed the ability to pick any car in the game from freeplay. They did it to make money, simple as.

right. to everyone saying 'oh the grind isn't really worse, I have loads of credits' etc etc. reread this post above. used to be I could jump right in and try out any car right away, for fun, without spending extra.

now I can't. I either have to spend time earning money to buy it in game or spend real money to get it right away.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

So sad to see games getting infected with more and more grind.

It comes out of nowhere and nobody figured out a way to fight the grind properly. Except for developers and publishers. They help us fight the grind, but it costs a little bit, but that's ok.

Hopefully they figure out where the grind comes from, and hopefully they find a way to defeat the grind.

Until then, I am very grateful that they have found a way to fight this disease, thanks to micro-transactions.

 

[BruiserBear]

I view this as pretty contrite, to be honest, and I'm surprised people think he's being evasive. He says the goal wasn't to make non-paying players feel like they've missed out, but he admits that no matter what their goal was if the players do feel they've missed out, then that's a bad thing. I think to the extent that he's reaching at all, it's a product of being in the bubble rather than malice.

He straight up denies they had financial motivations for making numerous changes to the economy of this game. He's telling a bold faced lie. There is nothing contrite about that.

He then goes on to compare it to Forza 4, when it's far worse in Forza 5. Again, a disingenuous comparison, and he knows it.

He's comes off to me as frustrated because beginning with Forza 4 they began slipping this shit into their games, and it was pushed a tiny bit further in Forza Horizon, but then they went a lot further in Forza 5, and now he's wondering why no one raised a stink before. It's all just gross to me how they're reacting to this. Saying nothing at all is better than this denial bullshit.

 

[QaaQer]

Regardless, I don't think that's a healthy mentality for MMO players to have either.

If you're playing a game just to show off your loot to other people then I think it's time to reevaluate whether you're actually having a genuinely rewarding experience playing the game. It is linked to what Jonathan Blow has said in the past about MMO's being manipulative rather than genuinely fun.

It's sad to me that the same mentality is now leaking into other genres.

There are a sizable number of former MMO players that talk about them like they were cigarettes or some other undesirable thing they have no intention of taking up again.

 

[vagabondarts]

What did they think was going to happen? I never understand how devs can be disappointed or not understand why people don't want to be nickel and dimed in their full price AAA games.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Every Microtransaction model is based around hunting rich people who want to play games without actually playing the games

Does this undermine gaming as a whole? Seems like a subtle form of corruption in the AAA space don't ya think?

How long before money grabbing is more important than the game itself? Oh wait this is already the case in many examples.

You wonder why it has a negative light.

Everytime you turn on a game.... when you enter your entertainment escape your immersion will be broken by the constant reminders that you can skip the gameplay for money.

 

[ironcreed]

The shit they were trying to pull makes EA's time saver packs look like a good deal. I can easily ignore little $5-$10 unlocks for the impatient like that. But taking out content and trying to fish with the prices they were throwing out there is just insane. And then to come out and act like 'we just don't get it' is even more infuriating. All I can hope for is that Playground does not pull this shit with Forza Horizon 2, as the first one is absolutely one of the best racing games I have ever played.

EDIT - Yes, I know Horizon was riddled with the token shit as well. But that was nothing compared to this.

 

[zephervack]

Making cars more exclusive???

Im gonna repeat what I heard in Giantbomb....

I already cant buy a Veyron in Real life, and now I cant in my favorite racer either.

So sad.

Just make all cars available in arcade so I can race my favorite cars during the 1 hour a day I get to play games.

 

[NervousXtian]

Why do people keep coming back to MMO analogies? Motor racing is a sport. Compare it to other sports games.

What, you wanna play Man City? Fuck you get Oldham Athletic out of League One first... then beat it again on Legendary.. then you can play Huddersfield Town you little bitch.. don't start thinking about EPL yet ya dirty cunt... you gotta win FLC titles on Legendary mode first... but no.. you can't play Man City... nah mate.. you get Sunderland.

You can toss $100 to buy Man City though, press Y.

 

[delume]

Not saying I agree with them but things like this highlight why some people are saying the sky is falling around our hobby. Sad behaviour and so completely against the equality of experience that I think is one of the strengths of console gaming.

 

[Kocolino67]

I understand it, because perception's reality, and people start believing what they believe, but I know it's not the thought process we went through to make the decisions we made.

I understand. It's my fault that I try to think instead of just accepting what people are telling me. But then, maybe this thought is already one step to far?

 

[Derrick01]

I can't imagine the money they made on micro transactions for Forza 5 has been worth the damage to the brand and the ire caused by fans.

Just fucking remove that shit and then people will accept your apology.

Yeah forza's not even a big franchise, they can't afford to piss off their fan base like NBA 2k can or one of these other games that implement these awful F2P systems.

 

[Xanadu]

We had to rebuild everything from scratch, everything was rebuilt.

why does he keep saying these lies? its getting ridiculous

 

[NoPiece]

This is absolutely silly.

Racing games have involved racing to unlock stuff for a long time.

They're in no way comparable to Madden or FIFA...or any other "sports" game.

The only mode you may be able to compare it to is a "be a player" mode. Where you select or play as one player AND MUST EARN OR PROVE YOURSELF to move up in teams. You can't just jump into any team at any point, typically, in those modes.

Even using that "comparison" is silly though.

What about free play mode? I used to be able to go pick any car and any track and drive. Now that stuff is locked behind a paywall.

The analogy with Madden would be if you went to Play Now, and only the worst teams were unlocked, and you had to play through a career and earn money to play as better teams.

 

[QaaQer]

Every Microtransaction model is based around hunting rich people who want to play games without actually playing the games

Does this undermine gaming as a whole? Seems like a subtle form of corruption in the AAA space don't ya think?

How long before money grabbing is more important than the game itself? Oh wait this is already the case in many examples.

You wonder why it has a negative light.

Everytime you turn on a game.... when you enter your entertainment escape your immersion will be broken by the constant reminders that you can skip the gameplay for money.

It's not rich people. It is vulnerable people they are hunting.

 

[SmokyDave]

This is absolutely silly.

Racing games have involved racing to unlock stuff for a long time.

They're in no way comparable to Madden or FIFA...or any other "sports" game.

The only mode you may be able to compare it to is a "be a player" mode. Where you select or play as one player AND MUST EARN OR PROVE YOURSELF to move up in teams. You can't just jump into any team at any point, typically, in those modes.

Even using that "comparison" is silly though.

Dude, I've been playing racing games since 'Race' on the VIC-20, thirty years ago. I'm well aware of how they work. I'm not suggesting you remove the classic career grind entirely. I'm suggesting that you provide a way to bypass that grind for those that wish and that you don't do it by bilking people and pretending that you're preserving exclusivity.

 

[flyinpiranha]

THEN WHY DOES IT COST MONEY?

Haha, seriously.

"It's not about making money"
"Then just program a cheat code for credits, people would still have to buy with real money the actual DLC cars"
"It's about the money"

 

[Flo_Evans]

Why do people keep coming back to MMO analogies? Motor racing is a sport. Compare it to other sports games.

Seriously MMO's are some of the worst fucking designed games out there. The fact that you have to compete against people chained to their desks in 3rd world countries (who ironically will sell you the rare items for real cash money!) to get rare gear so you can strut around town like a bad ass is fuckin a disgrace.

Even in MMO's the people that do that shit are banned, not sure why the practice of selling in game items for cash is OK if a developer does it.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Yeah forza's not even a big franchise, they can't afford to piss off their fan base like NBA 2k can or one of these other games that implement these awful F2P systems.

Yeah it blows my mind

Its becoming a defacto standard inclusion in all AAA games marketed as a harmless low effort revenue stream

Are developers so naive to miss how it destroys the integrity of their designed game?

 

[mysteriousmage09]

I'm at a loss of words. This shit PR coming from everyone in MS' corner isn't even funny anymore.

 

[sangreal]

If their intention was really to save time for people who didn't want to do the grind, they wouldn't have removed the ability to pick any car in the game from freeplay. They did it to make money, simple as.

They already answered this

Why are there locked cars in Free Play mode? There's no progression element to Free Play, but a player can't just play with all the cars in the game?

Having a limited Free Play garage including rentals was introduced in Forza Horizon. Our goal was to get players to form connections with the cars that mattered most to them and to feel invested in the cars they own.

I get the hate for the microtransactions, because letting (or forcing) people pay to progress is bullshit but there are legitimate reasons (other than trying to make a few thousand dollars) for the design choices they made

 

[PoweredBySoy]

THEN WHY DOES IT COST MONEY?

Thread ended here.

 

[Vire]

Making cars more exclusive???

Im gonna repeat what I heard in Giantbomb....

I already cant buy a Veyron in Real life, and now I cant in my favorite racer either.

So sad.

Just make all cars available in arcade so I can race my favorite cars during the 1 hour a day I get to play games.

This post makes me so sad.

Paying full price apparently isn't enough anymore.

 

[IHaveCandy]

What's his excuse for not letting you race any car you want in free race?

 

[Interfectum]

It's not rich people. It is vulnerable people they are hunting.

Yup, the whole idea of microtransactions is disgusting as shit when you think about how the business model actually works and who it's targeting.

 

[Sneds]

There are a sizable number of former MMO players that talk about them like they were cigarettes or some other undesirable thing they have no intention of taking up again.

Exactly. I once listened to a video game podcast in which a host described taking a 1 or 2 week vacation from work and spent the whole time playing WoW. He was addicted. People have similar experiences with Facebook games, which are designed to be as addictive as possible.

I don't want to see other genres go down this route. FPS games already have it to some extent with people becoming obsessed with ranking up and prestige.

 

[Alebrije]

I don't get it, is it really that bad?

I've been playing some Forza and have yet to even look at microtransactions...

Soon.gif

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

Much like digital limited editions, digital scarcity and exclusivity is idiotic.

 

[Omega]

it's not about making more money, it was actually about saving people's time when doing the grind.

The non-money making way of doing this would have been to make less of a grind

Not more of a grind or an option to pay. but hey, what do I know?

 

[sinseers]

Forza 5 is a very shallow game. When compared to forza 4. There are just too many missing features. I went to paint my car yesterday just to find out that you can no longer get individual designs from other people. And what's up with free play. Its bad enough you limit the selection of cars but you also took out time trials? Forza 5 is basicly what I expected from the free PlayStation plus version of drive club. They only difference is forza 5 cost me 60 bucks.

I can only sympathize but so much for anyone purchasing a launch title. Even if it is from an established franchise. Conventional wisdom as has told us time and time again that launch titles are rushed at worst or a little hurried at best. I learned that lesson a long time ago and carried that knowledge moving forward. I expect very little from launch titles in regards to features and options.

 

[NoPiece]

Yeah it blows my mind

Its becoming a defacto standard inclusion in all AAA games marketed as a harmless low effort revenue stream

Are developers so naive to miss how it destroys the integrity of their designed game?

What they did was really lazy and stupid because they could have achieved a lot of their microtransaction goals without screwing over their average customer and fan. Instead of making entire cars "exclusive" (I find that idea so gross), just make a special shiny gold or silver Veyron that is super expensive. Do the Lotus F1 in a cool 70's JP PLayer livery, and sell it for whatever disgusting price they want. And seriously, please just unlock free drive for everything and everyone. You don't need to stand on the necks of your fans to go whale hunting.

 

[shandy706]

What about free play mode? I used to be able to go pick any car and any track and drive. Now that stuff is locked behind a paywall.

I agree on that. It's one of the things I don't like.

Dude, I've been playing racing games since 'Race' on the VIC-20, thirty years ago. I'm well aware of how they work. I'm not suggesting you remove the classic career grind entirely. I'm suggesting that you provide a way to bypass that grind for those that wish and that you don't do it by bilking people and pretending that you're preserving exclusivity.

As above, I agree on that. I do not like the Day One DLC or the fact that Free Play doesn't have every car.

Anyway, my point is everyone talking about grinding and being pushed towards micro-transactions in the career/main game. This is not true. I typed up the following quote and this is from the thread it was in...people basically stopped posting afterward. Making money and buying cars as you move through the game is not a "grind" next to other games I've played. It's pretty easy to run races and afford cars that qualify for each event.

My point, again, is not the crappy stuff they did do...but the people saying the game is a grind that pushes you to MTs through the design of the career.

Here's what I put in the other thread after getting tired of reading comments (many from people that never played the game) about how you are forced into MTs, the credits aren't enough, etc.

I suppose my account is a good example of how someone who doesn't have the VIP perks could do. I am a VIP (bought the LE), but I'm one of many that have the glitch where we didn't get (and still don't) most of our VIP perks. I do NOT get XP or the credits a VIP would. I literally get half what those without the glitch get.

Despite that, I still have quite a few cars in the short time I've played and a ton of money. In fact, I have some very expensive cars and have more money than what they gifted me still...despite buying multiple cars and upgrading them.

I also have cars that are eligible in nearly any category of the career already in the garage..granted, you only see a small sliver in my shots below.

There is NOTHING that feels like grinding to me, and I don't feel like I'm forced into any micro-transactions.

Being a father of two, and working 10-12 hour work days..I've only managed 7 HOURS and 22 Minutes of play time. This INCLUDES my daughter playing on my account (she's 6) and earning me nothing...

So here's what I have with basically 7 hours (probably less) of myself racing.

(forgive the crappy cell pics)

This is last night when I started up the game.

This is how much money I had when I started playing ($4,315,008)

This is last night when I stopped playing 12 minutes of racing later.

This how much money I had after racing for 12 minutes ($4, 357,850) $42, 842 more.

These are the categories I can race in (There are hundreds of events across the categories)

Here are some of the cars in my current garage after the little play time I've put in.

If Turn 10 was trying to Monetize the game to make a ton of cash...they're doing it wrong, lol. There's no pressure to pay for micro-transactions, and I have yet to race half the cars in my garage through a series or a category they qualify for. I don't see myself ever needing the 100 free tokens they give everyone (or the 1250 I didn't get due to the glitch).

They're working on the glitch and hopefully the patch in the coming week or so will get me up to speed where I'll be making even more money.

Anyway, I was just trying to show that even someone who doesn't get the LE perks...and who doesn't get to play a lot..should in no way ever need the tokens or Micro-transactions. I'd be happy if they removed them, but it in no way interferes with gameplay, obtaining cars, or racing events.

I'm anti MTs, and support the "cheat code" idea. However, you can play this game without ever paying attention to the MTs...and even enjoy it thoroughly without them.


I hope they make changes to the future plans they had for DLC, and the Ring had better be FREE.

 

[Metroidvania]

Dan Greenawalt: I understand that if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck... I know the statement. But honestly if you look at free-to-play games they usually have things called paywalls, where you're slowly wearing something down and the only way to get around it is to pay. That's not what we implemented in Forza 4 and that wasn't our goal in Forza 5 either. We don't have paywalls. We have acceleration, and that was based on feedback from players in Forza 4 - there's a small group of players that can't be bothered to do things and they have disposable income.

Bullllllshiiiiit.

Describing the exact same scenario but using the word 'acceleration' doesn't somehow give you a get-out-of-jail free card for dodging the comparison.

 

[Archaix]

I'm sorry that I didn't do a better job of displaying our genius and generosity of encouraging players to use their free time more wisely by dumping money into the game. We even tried crippling modes in the game to help people realize how good an idea it is to blow hundreds of dollars into a less complete game than the previous one in the series! I just don't get why people don't understand. I mean, I know they're all stupid. But I thought I could educate them and help them not be stupid.

 

[SmokyDave]

They already answered this

Well, if the idea is to 'get players to form connections with the cars that mattered most to them and to feel invested in the cars they own', I can only assume players will be able to carry those cars over to Forza 6.

Oh wait? Never gonna happen? That's a short term investment then.

 

[NullPointer]

So, people who are too busy and find no value in career ("the sim guys in a lot of cases") want unfettered access to all the cars. They ain't got time for any grinds.

So Turn 10 gives them access via a cheat code, but a cheat code you have to pay for, because... well, because things.

But because those busy people want these cars to be "exclusive enough for those who want to pay", these very same people "that couldn't be bothered to do things" mind you, they raised the price of tokens to astronomical heights. From a $3 maximum to over $150 in Forza 5.

Because that somehow makes sense as anything other than a moneygrab.

"I understand that if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck..."

Yeah.

I also notice what looks like expectation setting for the prices of that track DLC to come.

 

[twobear]

They already answered this



I get the hate for the microtransactions, because letting (or forcing) people pay to progress is bullshit but there are legitimate reasons (other than trying to make a few thousand dollars) for the design choices they made

That's not a legitimate reason at all. I guess it's a reason, but I really, really doubt it's the one they had in mind when they designed their game.

It's worse than not legitimate, it's fucking stupid. Just put in two online modes, free race and career. The people who want to get attached to their cars will play the career online, the people who don't care will play free race. If you're worried about the poor dears who'll get upset that somebody gets to race the Veyron without having unlocked it, make it so that stats don't get saved in free play or something, I dunno. Beyond that they're just going to have to deal with the fact that not everyone plays games for the same reasons.

The way they've set it up currently is transparent. They removed free play choices to encourage purchase of microtransations. End of story. Maybe they did that in Forza Horizon too, I don't know. Either way that's why they did it.

 

[NoPiece]

it's not about making more money, it was actually about saving people's time when doing the grind.

The non-money making way of doing this would have been to make less of a grind

Not more of a grind or an option to pay. but hey, what do I know?

At Turn 10, we respect your time, as long as you have a lot of money to give us. Otherwise, we piss on you and your time.

 

[Boss Man]

Guy does sound genuine, but maybe I'm just easily fooled.

 

[sangreal]

Bullllllshiiiiit.

Describing the exact same scenario but using the word 'acceleration' doesn't somehow give you a get-out-of-jail free card for dodging the comparison.

He is comparing it to stamina bars, a different f2p mechanic

 

[R3TRODYCE]

Hmm...I've been enjoying the game and I'm too cheap to pay for the extra shit.

 

[Oppo]

Dude, I've been playing racing games since 'Race' on the VIC-20, thirty years ago.

Aha! Imposter!

A real VIC20 fan would have specified Radar Rat Race, Omega Race or Death Race.

As for race campaigns, I've always been a fan of the "arcade mode with all cars and no progression" alongside "unlocking cars in campaign mode" That's a way to make everyone happy, IMO.

 

[watership]

I view this as pretty contrite, to be honest, and I'm surprised people think he's being evasive. He says the goal wasn't to make non-paying players feel like they've missed out, but he admits that no matter what their goal was if the players do feel they've missed out, then that's a bad thing. I think to the extent that he's reaching at all, it's a product of being in the bubble rather than malice.

That's because you read the article, and perhaps you went in with an open mind. I think most people just want to read the inflammatory bolded remarks only. It makes complete sense the way he describes what they intended, and he admits he's disappointed in himself that regardless of his intentions, the reaction has been bad and that's on him ultimately. So that's contrite to me as well.

 

[staticneuron]

Why do you have to pay for cheats? There are free cheat codes in GTAV.

Because they are different types of games. There is no cheat to simply win GTAV or skip entire story sections. Even if you put on invincibility it last for only 5 minutes iirc and yous till have to play through the storyline to beat the game.

Getting certain cars would be permanent and damage progression in a racing game because the only point in those games is to win races and acquire cars.