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Guardians of the Galaxy to be the first film shot with RED's new 8k camera

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Ninja Dom

Member
A question about fps.

I use an iPhone 6S and that shoots 1080p/60fps. I by far prefer this to shooting at 4K/30fps. I love seeing all of my home videos in 60fps.

I may be wrong but I believe that a home video viewed at 1080p/60fps will be a better video to watch years down the line than a 4K/30fps video. Especially of my kids in the future.

Why don't we have broadcast shows on the TV at 60fps? Or more films like The Hobbit at 48fps?

I absolutely love high framerate live action videos. They ALL look awesome!!
 

Jigolo

Member
That's not going to be true for very long. While some directors (read: Christopher Nolan) will continue shooting on IMAX film, the company itself seems to have moved on to chase the digital crowd instead. Michael Bay shot a bunch of Transformers 4 in "IMAX 3D" which was really a fancy way of saying "Digital 3D camera licensed by IMAX". The Russo Brothers shot some of Civil War and will shoot all of both Infinity War in "IMAX" format too, except they're really just brand new ARRI ALEXA digital cameras. I expect we will see more and more of this sort of blurring of the lines because IMAX knows that their brand expansion globally is largely being carried by Digital IMAX screens anyway. Not actual film projectors anymore.
What makes the ARRI Alexa cameras special/different? Compared to something like 70mm IMAX and such


Edit: found this article here and I'm becoming even more confused as to which IMAX theater ("fake" or real) will properly showcase civil war, avengers part 1 & 2 in their full glory

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/marvels-avengers-infinity-war-be-794031
 

Fuchsdh

Member
And they'll still use a 2k pipeline for all the effects and mastering soo....

Assume they won't be doing 8K CGI alongside though, surely?

Yep. that's why I can't get too excited. We might see more stuff getting mastered in 4K but I doubt that'll happen very soon. The 8K has pipeline advantages for effects artists still though.

The camera itself seems impressive. Most of these high-end ones top out at 24 or 30fps for their max resolution. If it can do 8K @ 75fps that's pretty impressive, although my experience with RED cameras has been less than stellar, especially with how their business is run like a razor blade company.

God help whoever is doing post on this. I think we will work on some scenes too, not looking forward to it. :(

I can hear our storage solutions straining on 4K, they'd positively melt if we had to handle and process 8K. Good thing this probably won't trickle down to our workflow for at least a decade at this rate.
 
Well, wider than non-anamorphic 35.

Doesn't anamorphic 35mm just compress the image horizontally to fit the negative? Ignore the soundtrack area for Super 35.

Anamorphic_lens_illustration_with_stretching.jpg
 

jmdajr

Member
Post production is still done in 2k?

really?

So even the blockbusters just have resized effects for 4k?

Well after running adobe programs on my 3k surface book, I can see why. The tools for making movies aren't even fucking ready for 4k work!
 
And no Hollywood films are shot in IMAX. Even if a couple sequences are shot in IMAX, if you go see it projected in IMAX film it's still from digital post-production in 8k or less, not from the original IMAX film that was shot.

EDIT: beaten.

No, if you go and see it in IMAX 70mm its in the exact same resolution since its projecting film
 

jmdajr

Member
From IMDB on The Force Awakens

Cinematographic Process:
Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
IMAX (source format) (some scenes)
Panavision (anamorphic) (source format)

Doesn't that mean post is done at 4K?
 

Broken Joystick

At least you can talk. Who are you?
With the announcement that Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 will be the first film to shoot on the RED Weapon 8K, I've received a lot of excitement from a lot of people. THANKS! However, I also get a lot of folks asking why we chose not to shoot on film, and it's assumed we aren't doing so because of the expense.

So, if you're interested, here's the deal.

When you're shooting a film at the level of Guardians of the Galaxy, the cost of film vs. digital is negligible - for me it's an aesthetic and creative choice.

Firstly, I believe when shooting on a format like the Red Weapon 8K or the Alexa 65, the amount of data is so massive - certainly more so than on a strip of film - that it gives you more freedom in production and post production to create exactly the film you want to create than actual film does. As anyone who has ever worked with me knows, I am a control freak. Such high resolution gives me the ability to control ever single bit of data (to do so would take a long time, but at least the knowledge comforts me).

Many filmmakers look to essentially replicate the look of film, but I don't share that interest. I believe that innovations in camera and shooting technologies as well as visual and practical effects gives us the ability to create a new aesthetic of film, one different from what the past has offered but equally beautiful - perhaps even more so. I respect many of the filmmakers who continue to shoot on film - and some of the most gorgeous movies of 2015 have been in that format. But I think sometimes that the love of actual film is based in nostalgia more than it is in objective beauty.

Many filmmakers remember the films of their youth and want to replicate that magic. For me, I'm interested in being one of the many who help to create a new kind of magic that will usher the cinematic experience into the future. What will the children of today think of fondly with nostalgia?

And, yes, most filmmakers who have shot digital have underutilized the format. But with these new cameras their advantages are easier to see for everyone.

And there are three other reasons I chose this format:

1) It is easier to seamlessly incorporate massive amounts of visual, digital effects - including a digital tree and raccoon - into a digital base.

2) One of the ways I capture my actor's performances is by doing massively long takes, over and over - sometimes up to an hour - much longer than your typical 11-minute reel of film. I find this a better way to capture the energy and rawness in a performance (and we get better outtakes of me yelling at Michael Rooker off-screen).

3) Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 will be utilizing another new technologies I'm very excited about but can't quite go into yet. But, for this technology, you need a camera the small size of the RED Weapon - a film camera is too big, as is the Alexa 65 (which is also an amazing camera).
Have a wonderful day.

https://www.facebook.com/jgunn/posts/10153095262726157
 

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
Can't wait to see Batista's nipples in 8k glory
 

Nikodemos

Member
From IMDB on The Force Awakens

Cinematographic Process:
Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
IMAX (source format) (some scenes)
Panavision (anamorphic) (source format)

Doesn't that mean post is done at 4K?
Ah, so that's why t was so fucking awful when I watched it in IMAX.
 

jmdajr

Member
Ah, so that's why t was so fucking awful when I watched it in IMAX.

I wonder how Christopher Nolan edits stuff

The Dark Knight Rises

Cinematographic Process: IMAX (some scenes)
Panavision (anamorphic)
Panavision Super 70 (some scenes)
VistaVision (some scenes)
 
New digital camera tech excites me. Film still looks and feels wonderful, but it's cumbersome, difficult to work with, and expensive. Storage is infinitely more difficult as well. It's a technology at its limit.

Digital has incredibly room for growth.
 

jmdajr

Member
New digital camera tech excites me. Film still looks and feels wonderful, but it's cumbersome, difficult to work with, and expensive. Storage is infinitely more difficult as well. It's a technology at its limit.

Digital has incredibly room for growth.

The Revenant looks awesome and it's (almost) all digital.

And that's just from the fucking trailer!

Cinematographic Process: ARRIRAW (3.4K) (6.5K) (source format)
Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
Panavision (anamorphic) (source format) (some scenes)
 
The Revenant looks awesome and it's (almost) all digital.

And that's just from the fucking trailer!

Cinematographic Process: ARRIRAW (3.4K) (6.5K) (source format)
Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
Panavision (anamorphic) (source format) (some scenes)

Skyfall was the movie that sold me. Of course Roger Deakins is a wizard unlike any other, but that movie is gorgeous and digital.
 

jmdajr

Member
Skyfall was the movie that sold me. Of course Roger Deakins is a wizard unlike any other, but that movie is gorgeous and digital.

Same process looks like

ARRIRAW (2.8K) (source format)
Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
Redcode RAW (5K) (source format) (aerial shots)
 

jmdajr

Member
Some history.

2004: Spider-Man 2 – The first digital intermediate on a new Hollywood film to be done entirely at 4K resolution. Although scanning, recording, and color-correction was done at 4K by EFILM, most of the visual effects were created at 2K and were upscaled to 4K.


Goes back to me wondering how much cg is actually rendered at 4k. Stuff usually moves so fast in action sequences it's probably not necessary in many cases.

edit: Found this http://flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1417772742

4K is a huge challenge in animated movies

Today, animated films are created in HD and 24 frames per second. Other movies released in 4K in cinemas also use computer-animated CGI in HD, even though the real camera footage is in 4K.
 

ElFly

Member
A question about fps.

I use an iPhone 6S and that shoots 1080p/60fps. I by far prefer this to shooting at 4K/30fps. I love seeing all of my home videos in 60fps.

I may be wrong but I believe that a home video viewed at 1080p/60fps will be a better video to watch years down the line than a 4K/30fps video. Especially of my kids in the future.

Why don't we have broadcast shows on the TV at 60fps? Or more films like The Hobbit at 48fps?

I absolutely love high framerate live action videos. They ALL look awesome!!

Films are shot at 24fps for economical reasons. It was decided early that this was the minimum acceptable framerate to simulate motion and faster framerates are more expensive. This also created a lock-in where projection technologies would only be suitable for 24fps so making a higher framerate movie would need special projectors. AFAIK this should not really be a limit in the future with more modern projectors, and there is a chance Avatar 2 will push more theathers into adopting 48fps capable projectors. Assuming Av2 is successful. It is possible that it failing will doom higher framerate movies for a long while.

This also causes people to perceive higher framerates as "wrong" -although it is very possible that the Hobbit is using weird aperture or other settings that make it look weird, we don't really have the technical experience to decide, and the hobbit movies are actually p bad in other senses-.

By the same token, historically NTSC and PAL had very standard framerates of 30 and 25 fps (interlinear, but whatevs). Nowadays with HDTV there is no technical reason for TVs to not broadcast at 60 fps, and it seems that sports at 60fps are particularly a good match; don't really know how successful the ventures on broadcasting sports at higher framerates are.

One of the most interesting things to do with fps is variable framerate; the movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainstorm_(1983_film) Brainstorm, originally was going to have segments at 24fps and 60fps, to distinguish between reality and virtual reality, but the project had to make do with different proportions.

It'd been cool cause it would have manipulated the "soap opera" effect into actual storytelling.

All in all the main reasons are economical and just people being used to 24fps movies and 30fps tv. The soap opera effect is just being used to soap operas on tv tech; hell, there are people who get used to the motion smoothing effect in their tvs and prefer it. So you know it is just about being used to it. In the end, it'd be better for everyone if we used different framerates for different effects/genres/situations but I don't really know if it is going to happen. I think this generation of people will be more open to higher framerate video so maybe things will improve. If you read the criticisms of HFR movies, people mostly say it looks soap-opera-y, or videogame-y, which indicates it is just their brain associating certain framerates to certain kind of content, and not an actual problem with the format.

Of course, costs of special effects also push back doing HFR movies, as you potentially double the frames you gotta touch up, so the economical forces are against it again. Ironically, this means that HFR movies would be a waaay better match for realistic productions (and this could potentially make these movies look more realistic) that use little CGI (although nowadays it seems everything uses post production), but the ones pushing for it are movies like the hobbit and avatar which are CGIfests.
 
Some history.

2004: Spider-Man 2 – The first digital intermediate on a new Hollywood film to be done entirely at 4K resolution. Although scanning, recording, and color-correction was done at 4K by EFILM, most of the visual effects were created at 2K and were upscaled to 4K.


Goes back to me wondering how much cg is actually rendered at 4k. Stuff usually moves so fast in action sequences it's probably not necessary in many cases.

edit: Found this http://flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1417772742

4K is a huge challenge in animated movies

I think only Fincher's GWTDT and Gone Girl have been completely finished in 4k (including cg), but there may be a handful more.
 

B33

Banned
If the studios are outputting the majority of their final digital prints on 2K and movie venues are upscaling them to 4K on their digital projects, what about digital IMAX prints? Are they being upscaled? Is it a higher resolution?
 

JCreasy

Member
Some history.

2004: Spider-Man 2 – The first digital intermediate on a new Hollywood film to be done entirely at 4K resolution. Although scanning, recording, and color-correction was done at 4K by EFILM, most of the visual effects were created at 2K and were upscaled to 4K.


Goes back to me wondering how much cg is actually rendered at 4k. Stuff usually moves so fast in action sequences it's probably not necessary in many cases.

edit: Found this http://flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1417772742

4K is a huge challenge in animated movies

I wonder who will make the first 4k rendered animated movie?

Unless Smurfs 2 doesn't count . . .
 

jmdajr

Member
I think only Fincher's GWTDT and Gone Girl have been completely finished in 4k (including cg), but there may be a handful more.

http://www.4kshooters.net/2014/08/13/david-finchers-gone-girl-1st-feature-film-shot-entirely-in-6k/

Found an article bout it.

Pushing the boundaries of digital acquisition and workflow technology again in 2014, he shot his latest thriller “Gone Girl” entirely in 6K on the Red Epic Dragon. It is also the first major film to be shot entirely in 6K and edited entirely in Adobe Premiere Pro CC.

“Gone Girl” is also the first feature film to use the recently announced brand-new Nvidia Quadro K5200 GPU cards in its workflow. The Red Dragon 6K footage was converted to DPX sequences using a GPU-accelerated system for a more streamlined and efficient transfer to the VFX department.

In the editing process, the 6K footage was converted to 2.5K ProRes files, via a 5K center image extraction, on a 1920×1080p timeline. The Nvidia Quadro-based workflow the post-production team used on “Gone Girl”, also supported up to 4 streams of 6K multi-camera playback with “repositioning, stabilisation and color-correction happening in real time” Nvidia said, with the additional benefit of real-time downscaling of 6K footage to 4K.
 

jaydogg691

Member
So how does this 8K filming compare to the recent 70MM release of The Hateful Eight? The movie is shot in Ultra Panavision 70 and it was very pleasant on the eyes when I saw it on film. I even got a booklet detailing some of the process that went into filming with these rigs in those harsh weather conditions.

Unq5PDc.jpg
 

jmdajr

Member
My friend joked that 90% of Hateful 8 is shot indoors.

again:

According to IMAX, 35mm film has a digital equivalent of 6000 lines of horizontal resolution (6K), while 70mm film has the equivalent of 18,000 lines of digital resolution (more like 12,000 in reality).
 

Ninja Dom

Member
Films are shot at 24fps for economical reasons. It was decided early that this was the minimum acceptable framerate to simulate motion and faster framerates are more expensive. This also created a lock-in where projection technologies would only be suitable for 24fps so making a higher framerate movie would need special projectors. AFAIK this should not really be a limit in the future with more modern projectors, and there is a chance Avatar 2 will push more theathers into adopting 48fps capable projectors. Assuming Av2 is successful. It is possible that it failing will doom higher framerate movies for a long while.

This also causes people to perceive higher framerates as "wrong" -although it is very possible that the Hobbit is using weird aperture or other settings that make it look weird, we don't really have the technical experience to decide, and the hobbit movies are actually p bad in other senses-.

By the same token, historically NTSC and PAL had very standard framerates of 30 and 25 fps (interlinear, but whatevs). Nowadays with HDTV there is no technical reason for TVs to not broadcast at 60 fps, and it seems that sports at 60fps are particularly a good match; don't really know how successful the ventures on broadcasting sports at higher framerates are.

One of the most interesting things to do with fps is variable framerate; the movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainstorm_(1983_film) Brainstorm, originally was going to have segments at 24fps and 60fps, to distinguish between reality and virtual reality, but the project had to make do with different proportions.

It'd been cool cause it would have manipulated the "soap opera" effect into actual storytelling.

All in all the main reasons are economical and just people being used to 24fps movies and 30fps tv. The soap opera effect is just being used to soap operas on tv tech; hell, there are people who get used to the motion smoothing effect in their tvs and prefer it. So you know it is just about being used to it. In the end, it'd be better for everyone if we used different framerates for different effects/genres/situations but I don't really know if it is going to happen. I think this generation of people will be more open to higher framerate video so maybe things will improve. If you read the criticisms of HFR movies, people mostly say it looks soap-opera-y, or videogame-y, which indicates it is just their brain associating certain framerates to certain kind of content, and not an actual problem with the format.

Of course, costs of special effects also push back doing HFR movies, as you potentially double the frames you gotta touch up, so the economical forces are against it again. Ironically, this means that HFR movies would be a waaay better match for realistic productions (and this could potentially make these movies look more realistic) that use little CGI (although nowadays it seems everything uses post production), but the ones pushing for it are movies like the hobbit and avatar which are CGIfests.

Ah, thanks very much for the detailed explanation.
 

tarheel91

Member
Films are shot at 24fps for economical reasons. It was decided early that this was the minimum acceptable framerate to simulate motion and faster framerates are more expensive. This also created a lock-in where projection technologies would only be suitable for 24fps so making a higher framerate movie would need special projectors. AFAIK this should not really be a limit in the future with more modern projectors, and there is a chance Avatar 2 will push more theathers into adopting 48fps capable projectors. Assuming Av2 is successful. It is possible that it failing will doom higher framerate movies for a long while.

This also causes people to perceive higher framerates as "wrong" -although it is very possible that the Hobbit is using weird aperture or other settings that make it look weird, we don't really have the technical experience to decide, and the hobbit movies are actually p bad in other senses-.

By the same token, historically NTSC and PAL had very standard framerates of 30 and 25 fps (interlinear, but whatevs). Nowadays with HDTV there is no technical reason for TVs to not broadcast at 60 fps, and it seems that sports at 60fps are particularly a good match; don't really know how successful the ventures on broadcasting sports at higher framerates are.

One of the most interesting things to do with fps is variable framerate; the movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainstorm_(1983_film) Brainstorm, originally was going to have segments at 24fps and 60fps, to distinguish between reality and virtual reality, but the project had to make do with different proportions.

It'd been cool cause it would have manipulated the "soap opera" effect into actual storytelling.

All in all the main reasons are economical and just people being used to 24fps movies and 30fps tv. The soap opera effect is just being used to soap operas on tv tech; hell, there are people who get used to the motion smoothing effect in their tvs and prefer it. So you know it is just about being used to it. In the end, it'd be better for everyone if we used different framerates for different effects/genres/situations but I don't really know if it is going to happen. I think this generation of people will be more open to higher framerate video so maybe things will improve. If you read the criticisms of HFR movies, people mostly say it looks soap-opera-y, or videogame-y, which indicates it is just their brain associating certain framerates to certain kind of content, and not an actual problem with the format.

Of course, costs of special effects also push back doing HFR movies, as you potentially double the frames you gotta touch up, so the economical forces are against it again. Ironically, this means that HFR movies would be a waaay better match for realistic productions (and this could potentially make these movies look more realistic) that use little CGI (although nowadays it seems everything uses post production), but the ones pushing for it are movies like the hobbit and avatar which are CGIfests.

Pretty sure that ESPN streams 720p60fps instead of 1080p30fps.
 
No, if you go and see it in IMAX 70mm its in the exact same resolution since its projecting film

Film converted to 4k (at most) converted back to film. So, no, the projected IMAX 70mm Star Wars TFA has far less resolution in the Battle of Jakku than the original film that was exposed when shooting those scenes.

Doesn't anamorphic 35mm just compress the image horizontally to fit the negative? Ignore the soundtrack area for Super 35.

Sure, that's what anamorphic means.

You're excited about a wider sensor but it doesn't mean wider films.

I wonder how Christopher Nolan edits stuff

The Dark Knight Rises

Cinematographic Process: IMAX (some scenes)
Panavision (anamorphic)
Panavision Super 70 (some scenes)
VistaVision (some scenes)

It isn't just editing, though. Editing film is one thing. Production on film is another. These films have effects. And is anybody really even doing non-digital color correction in film production at this point?
 
From IMDB on The Force Awakens

Cinematographic Process:
Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
IMAX (source format) (some scenes)
Panavision (anamorphic) (source format)

Doesn't that mean post is done at 4K?

Maybe. It's also imdb so I don't know if that's joe schmoe updating that or someone who actually worked on the film.

Considering the speed at which the production had to be done to make release date, it seems like Lucasfilm would have used the 2K pipeline, though.
 

Ridley327

Member
It isn't just editing, though. Editing film is one thing. Production on film is another. These films have effects. And is anybody really even doing non-digital color correction in film production at this point?

I can only think of The Hateful Eight being entirely analog of recent films; Tarantino had a chemical process for the color timing done, which I don't think even Nolan does for his features.

That film is sure to be a stunner on future formats, to say nothing of the Blu-ray release.
 
I can only think of The Hateful Eight being entirely analog of recent films; Tarantino had a chemical process for the color timing done, which I don't think even Nolan does for his features.

That film is sure to be a stunner on future formats, to say nothing of the Blu-ray release.

That's awesome.

Maybe. It's also imdb so I don't know if that's joe schmoe updating that or someone who actually worked on the film.

Considering the speed at which the production had to be done to make release date, it seems like Lucasfilm would have used the 2K pipeline, though.

It's easy to forget, but remember when watching the Jakku sequences that virtually every single shot with BB-8 has a digitally-removed puppeteer. Even if there are practical effects in the same shot it doesn't mean that there isn't digital effects work also.
 
You're excited about a wider sensor but it doesn't mean wider films.

I don't think I implied that it did? It's a sensor roughly the size of 35mm but more suited to aspect ratios more commonly used in cinema. Point is: there's a big sensor with all the optical and tonal characteristics that gets you, intended for mainstream use.

This is good. What were we talking about?
 

injurai

Banned
So how does this 8K filming compare to the recent 70MM release of The Hateful Eight? The movie is shot in Ultra Panavision 70 and it was very pleasant on the eyes when I saw it on film. I even got a booklet detailing some of the process that went into filming with these rigs in those harsh weather conditions.

Unq5PDc.jpg

Man, everything about the filming of this movie was fantastic.
 
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