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Have gamers got too much power?

Omega

Banned
Sorry, can't take your article serious when you start off with

"Soooo... Apparently, Mass Effect 3's ending is controversial because it leaves a lot of questions unanswered. And the fans aren't happy about that at all."

Apparently normally implies you haven't experienced it yourself and you're just speaking from word of mouth. Unless you've actually played Mass Effect and have invested yourself into the universe, you can't comprehend why we have a problem with that shit.

Tired of people who have no idea wtf they're talking about just making rants about how we're entitled.

Besides, when someone promises something and COMPLETELY fails to deliver and all we want is what was promised, that's not entitled.
 

Ziltoid

Unconfirmed Member
Bioware should just release mod tools for the game so the fans can make the ending they want. Everybody wins.
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
Gamers don't have any power.

You can be sure EA/Bioware is profiting from the extra stuff that comes out for ME3 even if it doesn't have a pricetag on it. Acting like the gamers are making them do it at gunpoint, against every shred of self-interest Bioware/EA has is just that, an act.

I can't even finish Mass Effect 3 because of a bug, how much power do I have?

You can't play human vanguard in co-op without glitching unless you are host, how much power do we have?

You can't use the falcon properly unless you're host, how much power do we have?

If gamers had any power at all would Dragon Age 2 be a crappy action game?

The list is endless.

If there is anybody in this equation who has too much power it might be the "journalists" who write stories like this.
 

MechaX

Member
The client is obviously allowed to express their opinions. I have nothing against that. I just don't really believe that devs should cave in and change something like the ending of Mass Effect 3. It's not like its an important bug or something. I also doubt that would kill their futur sales. I don't really see the incentive. Sometimes it happens that we don't like an ending. It probably happened to many movies. It's just opinions, I don't see why the writer of the movie should change its ending. Its his ending. Same goes for videogames really.

That's just the thing though: the dev's don't have to change a thing. This isn't a product liability scenario where a manufacturer would be forced to change their product or face legal consequences. The main ME3 critics no doubt realize that even with the strongest charity pushes or biggest outcries, they can't affirmatively force an ending change no matter what. With that said, there are consequences to every act in any business; if Bioware really wanted to push the ending on the audience, and even when knowing what the public thinks of its quality, they should be able to live with the consequences of pushing a not-well-received product. If they want to change the ending to appease to the fan-base, it shouldn't be a matter of "but-but the gamers forced us to change it because of the outcry" as opposed to "we're changing it because we admit we might have fucked up on this product and we think keeping audience good will overrides keeping the product as is."
 

Omega

Banned
Gamers don't have any power.

You can be sure EA/Bioware is profiting from the extra stuff that comes out for ME3 even if it doesn't have a pricetag on it. Acting like the gamers are making them do it at gunpoint, against every shred of self-interest Bioware/EA has is just that, an act.

I can't even finish Mass Effect 3 because of a bug, how much power do I have?

You can't play human vanguard in co-op without glitching unless you are host, how much power do we have?

You can't use the falcon properly unless you're host, how much power do we have?


If gamers had any power at all would Dragon Age 2 be a crappy action game?

The list is endless.

If there is anybody in this equation who has too much power it might be the "journalists" who write stories like this.

It's not just human vanguard, all of them have that problem. I sold this garbage awhile ago but my friends have told me that even on host, the Krogan Vanguard sucks because his moves don't register or he can have the vanguard glitch happen. Yeah, the Falcon was just sad. I remember the first time I used it I was off host and I thought "wtf is this shit?" then I used it on host, and it destroys.

But off course these "journalists" don't want the consumers with more power.

They don't play games, so they don't give a shit when developers released some half-assed, rush, piece of shit game. They get their checks from EA/Activision/Microsoft/Sony with a note saying "give this game this score and this check is yours" and maybe a PS on that note that says "also when we unveil our next game you get exclusive coverage"
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Even entertaining the thought that consumers have too much power in a land full of Day 1 DLC, Origin account lockouts due to forum bans, Molyneux-esque lie factories that masquerade as "journalists" and the incredible gulf that exists between the product being sold and what we receive is hilarious.
 

Somnid

Member
Visionaries tell you what you want (because you never knew you wanted it), not the other way around.

Also, Smash Bros and Zelda fans should never be allowed to wield any power.
 

Shambles

Member
How dare consumers not bend to the whim of the mega-corporation.

What an asinine idea. I wish consumers were a hell of a lot more pickier than they are, we'd have a lot better shit for it. Consumers, especially gamers are the most spineless group of people out there.
 

John Harker

Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Absolutely, 100% agree.

Gaming has seen it's golden years without any 'fan involvement' - empowering fans in this case is like design by focus group, which never turns out well... the best games are those with a singular, unified vision by creative leads. Please, please stop listening to message boards and armchair analysts, developers. Save us from ourselves.

(The financial impact of the internet isn far overblown, anyway. If Snakes on a Plane, Scott Pilgrim, and Clerks 2 have shown us anything... it's that by primarily focusing on internet word of mouth and marketing is worth roughly ~$30MM in ticket sales. Pssht, chump change)
 

Kinyou

Member
Yeah, gamers didn't even give online passes a chance and now they're gon-

oh, wait, no. Online Passes aren't going anywhere.
 

Reuenthal

Banned
Well I think that people who create stories and games should try to create quality stories and not be operating only by trying to give the fans exactly what they want, besides people often don't know what they want until they experience it and see the quality.

That being said it doesn't mean that criticism can't be right and even the fans don't deserve to be listened to once in a while.
 
If gamers had too much power, I'd be playing jrpg's that looked at the good design decisions decades old games like chrono trigger & grandia made and took them to heart

le sigh
 

MechaX

Member
Absolutely, 100% agree.

Gaming has seen it's golden years without any 'fan involvement' - empowering fans in this case is like design by focus group, which never turns out well... the best games are those with a singular, unified vision by creative leads. Please, please stop listening to message boards and armchair analysts, developers. Save us from ourselves.

Just a thought, but if this premise were actually true, I don't think that the industry would be knee-deep in online passes, disc-locked content, and extortionist (day one) DLC to compensate for clearly unfinished games at some points, or to nickle-and-dime the audience at many others.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
Absolutely, 100% agree.

Gaming has seen it's golden years without any 'fan involvement' - empowering fans in this case is like design by focus group, which never turns out well... the best games are those with a singular, unified vision by creative leads. Please, please stop listening to message boards and armchair analysts, developers. Save us from ourselves.

(The financial impact of the internet isn far overblown, anyway. If Snakes on a Plane, Scott Pilgrim, and Clerks 2 have shown us anything... it's that by primarily focusing on internet word of mouth and marketing is worth roughly ~$30MM in ticket sales. Pssht, chump change)

Sarcasm? Valve has released products that are as critically acclaimed as any developer this gen and we know without doubt that they focus test their games to crazy levels.

Some will counter with semantics and and say they're just culling data from playtests. But it's the same thing. Unified visions by creative leads are a one way ticket to self-indulgent crap. It's too easy to get numbed by the process and not spot things that are obviously broken.
 

Blondie

Neo Member
The truth is that the gaming press are, by and large, sycophants for the industry. We do not pay their salaries, ad companies and the industry does, so they don't have to give a lick what we think and say. And the less we speak out and say the better, because we are only "consumers" i.e. lowly parasites to the great and wondrous producers. They were previously us, and now see themselves as above and beyond the unwashed masses of "gamers". There's a good reason for so much distrust for review scores and the like by gamers towards the gaming press. It's because the relationship between the gaming press and the game industry is so incestuous; and this is just another example of it...
 

Opiate

Member
I think the better way to put this is that highly vocal or highly established minorities can often wield disproportionate power.

Yes, of course that's true.

DO CONSUMERS HAVE TOO MUCH POWER?!

This really depends on the situation. It isn't really consumers vs. publishers; it's a small, vocal minority of consumers vs. the rest of consumers who might have a different opinion. It would be like the vocal minority of vinyl aficianados trying to push the entire music industry back to that format when most consumers obviously wouldn't prefer that.
 

bryehn

Member
So what you're asking is if consumers have too much power?
Video games are products, so consumers should have the power to shape the market before them.

The only real issue I have with this is that the vast majority of consumers are complete idiots ;)
 

Mudkips

Banned
Can gamers be trusted?
Do you trust the opinion of people on message boards when it comes to storytelling in video games?
Has Bioware handled the situation in a way becoming of a AAA developer?
Do you think gamers are "killing the industry" [via Twitter]?

No.
No.
No.
No.

Can developers/publishers be trusted?
Do you trust the opinion of developers/publishers boards when it comes to storytelling in video games?
Has <developer/publisher> handled <situation> in a way becoming of a AAA developer/publisher?
Do you think developers/publishers are "killing the industry" [via how they treat their customers]?

No.
No.
The bigger the developer/publisher, the more likely this answer is "No.".
Yes.
 

CorvoSol

Member
If a developer says "I am not actually going to sell you this game but only let you download it for full price" or "All the DLC is there on the disk but you have to pay me extra to use it." The gamer can't do anything.

How can I have too much of something I don't have at all?
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Bioware could have ignored the complaints.

Just saying.

They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it for damage control. They're doing it to win back people before they make the next iteration of Mass Effect.
 

K.Sabot

Member
I think the better way to put this is that highly vocal or highly established minorities can often wield disproportionate power.

Yes, of course that's true.



This really depends on the situation. It isn't really consumers vs. publishers; it's a small, vocal minority of consumers vs. the rest of consumers who might have a different opinion. It would be like the vocal minority of vinyl aficianados trying to push the entire music industry back to that format when most consumers obviously wouldn't prefer that.

If that's how it is, Bioware should stop responding to its "fanbase" and be more honest about what type of consumer they are catering to.
 
Gamers don't have much power, but I think developers make them think that they do too often. And I do agree that gamers are the most entitled community, but you get that from an interactive medium.

But the ME3 ending was a different situation and sales were hurting due to it, it wasn't a point of artistic integrity, just fixing what they put out and addressing false advertising.
 

Riggs

Banned
Cannot take this seriously, me3 ending was horrendous. New endings are pure damage control it is not because BW is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. So tired of the entitled gamer shtick. God forbid consumers have the right to be angry over a horrible ending. ME is an epic series that was basical ruined for me by the ending.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
hardcastlemccormick said:
I'm tired of hearing "entitled" as an end-all-be-all argument against consumers.

Just because the demands of the buyer changes (or even grows) does not mean they're "entitled" or any of these other super-loaded words that try to paint the buyer in a negative light. It just means the nature of business transaction has changed. The seller can rise to meet those demands or continue down their own path.

Thus, we're in an industry where any time some gamers decide to make a vocal complaint about a particular point, they're "entitled." It's never whether or not the complaint is valid, which is what the focus should be. It's rather whether or not the consumer is staying in his place where he belongs, as opposed to not becoming a mindless purchaser of goods and services all for the greater good of the industry.

If the crux of your argument is whether or not someone has a right/privilege to complain, you should just stop talking. This is the core of the "entitled" argument.

Complaint and criticism is one thing, but what we're getting a lot of nowadays goes way beyond that. The problem is that seemingly a lot of people are missing the point that satisfaction with a creative work isn't something that can honestly be guaranteed under any circumstances. Its an intention at best.

Ending long-running sagas is a fraught process, hell off the top of my head The Sopranos, Battlestar Galactica, and Lost all had extremely divisive finales yet none were the subject of silly "retake" campaigns. I say silly because "retaking" implies that authorship was once in the hands of the consumer, not Bioware, and that was never the case.
 

Riggs

Banned
The truth is that the gaming press are, by and large, sycophants for the industry. We do not pay their salaries, ad companies and the industry does, so they don't have to give a lick what we think and say. And the less we speak out and say the better, because we are only "consumers" i.e. lowly parasites to the great and wondrous producers. They were previously us, and now see themselves as above and beyond the unwashed masses of "gamers". There's a good reason for so much distrust for review scores and the like by gamers towards the gaming press. It's because the relationship between the gaming press and the game industry is so incestuous; and this is just another example of it...
God, this 10000%. The reactions and venemous responses from the gaming journalists was so immature and predictable. God forbid we are mad that one of the best series in gaming was made a joke with the ending of ME3. So entitled am I, as I watched the ending with my mouth hanging open wondering what the fuck did I just see. God I hate being so entitled.
 

DjangoReinhardt

Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
If this column is so concerned about the sanctity of BioWare's art, where are the questions about the fact that Javik was ripped out of the game to be sold as DLC? The fact that several in-game items were distributed based on the store at which a pre-order was placed? The countless bugs in the shipped product? The developer/publisher is given a free pass to make decisions that are detrimental to the final product and the consumer, but a legitimate grievance by the audience is dangerous?

Developers and publishers don't get to have it both ways. BioWare and EA chose to put an unfinished, expandable product on store shelves in order to maximize revenue. It is perfectly reasonable that consumers are now requesting that those hooks, which were being used solely as cynical tools to extract additional revenue from them, be used to fix the problems with the game that was rushed to shelves.
 

FINALBOSS

Banned
Hey isn't that our very own Shocking Alberto? Great piece.

I loved that whole Bank of America - EA debate.

Everyone knows about BoA's shitty business practices...the whole point of voting for EA and having them win is to let those same people know how similar the relatively unknown EA is.
 
Gamers have too much power? The only power they have is the decision of whether to pay money or not. Do developers and publishers want government subsidies now, because that's the only way to take this "power" away?
 

Interfectum

Member
This really depends on the situation. It isn't really consumers vs. publishers; it's a small, vocal minority of consumers vs. the rest of consumers who might have a different opinion. It would be like the vocal minority of vinyl aficianados trying to push the entire music industry back to that format when most consumers obviously wouldn't prefer that.

I think most consumers would prefer the Mass Effect 3 ending to not be shit though. They aren't changing the ending, only adding a few cutscenes. So I fail to see how gamers have any power even in the ME3 situation.
 

Emitan

Member
Video games are a product sold to consumers. Consumers should have power because they determine what fails and what succeeds.
 
So called "gaming media" should go read up on the new coke fiasco sometime. Their minds would shatter from all the "entitlement" involved.
 

Dorrin

Member
Too much power... yet unless you bought the CE version you were asked to pay 10.00 for a character that should have been included in the full game or at the very least for anyone buying a new version.

Day 1 DLC
Online Passes

Too much power.. yeah right.
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it for damage control. They're doing it to win back people before they make the next iteration of Mass Effect.

And they probably will.

As shitty as the ending was, i just want to play another game with turians, krogans, salarians, asaris, drells, batarians, geths, protheans and who knows what other races.

I know i'm not helping, but i dont care.
 

Opiate

Member
If that's how it is, Bioware should stop responding to its "fanbase" and be more honest about what type of consumer they are catering to.

First, I think Bioware has been fairly open about trying to appeal to a "wider" audience. It was their primary explanation for including consoles, for example.

But second, my generalized thesis was not necessarily intended to apply to the specific example given here. While there are some cases of vocal-minority-crowds-out-majority, I think the ending to Mass Effect appears to be hated by everyone. Just because the "core" fanbase hates something doesn't mean the "casual" fan will like it, and I didn't intend for the concept to apply in all cases.
 

akira28

Member
But are the vocal minority of angry, internet types ruining it for Joe Gamer; the guy that just wants to have a good time and experience the world Bioware envisioned?

I would say this imaginary Joe Gamer is ruining it for those of us who actually give a shit and have standards. Joe Gamer can go play Zynga games or Shooter of the Month. If I shell out 70 bucks for a computer role playing game, I want it to be balanced, fun, detailed, and thought out. Lots of games fail to regularly meet that criteria, and I don't mind them being criticized. People hated the ending of ME3, and others are just surprised that consumer outcry could actually effect change, when we're so used to it being ignored.

This is not a problem, it should be the new rule. Take the consumers seriously. Don't just equate them to angry basement dwellers on the internet.
 

Cartman86

Banned
Consumers have been doing this to every industry. Companies don't have to listen, but when your goal is to make money it's no surprise when they do. Especially on massive budget projects.
 
There's nothing wrong with consumers getting what they want - it's the cornerstone of the industry. I won't get into the "gaming is art" debate here, but most developers aren't bold starving artists making games for the sake of making games. Consumers will continue to hold power over developers so long as devs and pubs place value in the consumer's dollar.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
And they probably will.

As shitty as the ending was, i just want to play another game with turians, krogans, salarians, asaris, drells, batarians, geths, protheans and who knows what other races.

I know i'm not helping, but i dont care.

Hey, if they can salvage the ending, they can salvage the ending. I don't see how it's possible, but if they manage to do it, more power to them. I'll check it out when it's released and see how I feel. Right now, I'm very lukewarm about the universe.
 

Dan Yo

Banned
you ask money from gamers?

gamers then become customers so stfu or stop doing business. :)
Exactly. I suspect journalists write articles like this because publishers just send them games for free and they never have to spend any money on them or get to feel what a consumer who is out of hard earned cash feels like.

Gaming is an extremely expensive hobby. Costumers of the business are certainly entitled to a lot.
 

Sol..

I am Wayne Brady.
After what gamers did to Vanguard all throughout beta....fuck em. If you give em just a little bit of power they'll smear shit all over the walls.
 

Tellaerin

Member
Complaint and criticism is one thing, but what we're getting a lot of nowadays goes way beyond that. The problem is that seemingly a lot of people are missing the point that satisfaction with a creative work isn't something that can honestly be guaranteed under any circumstances. Its an intention at best.

Ending long-running sagas is a fraught process, hell off the top of my head The Sopranos, Battlestar Galactica, and Lost all had extremely divisive finales yet none were the subject of silly "retake" campaigns. I say silly because "retaking" implies that authorship was once in the hands of the consumer, not Bioware, and that was never the case.

The difference between the examples you cited and Mass Effect 3 is that the ME series touts player agency as a major part of the experience. This isn't a story you're watching, it's one that you're interacting with - you're the invisible hand guiding the experience, directing the protagonist's actions, shaping his/her relationships with the other characters in the world, and guiding things toward outcomes that you, the player, desire. So there's definitely an element of 'authorship' present in the experience. While it's not realistic to expect that every possible ending should be accounted for within the scope of the game, there should be an element of meaningful choice there, and one or more of those choices should be one that's going to feel satisfying for the player.

The ending in a game is a goal to be achieved. It's a payoff for the player. That's particularly true of a series where players have guided the same character through three successive games. They're invested in the protagonist in a way that you just don't see in other media, because they actually had to work to get the character to that point. It's their Shepard. And many people seem to feel (and I'm inclined to agree) that Bioware fumbled the ending.

Another point to consider is that we live in an age where publishers can address any number of issues in a game through post-release patches. This differentiates videogames from books or novels, which are more or less frozen in amber when they're released (at least until the inevitable remakes roll around...) If gameplay bugs that reduce a player's enjoyment can be addressed in patches, why shouldn't something plot-related receive similar attention in a game of this type? The ending as written is considered 'broken' by the vast majority of fans, and it's hardly a case where they're just too shortsighted to appreciate its artistic brilliance. It is genuinely lacking. It's impairing peoples' enjoyment in a major way. The technical means to address the problem are there. If publishers can patch in advertisements on load screens after a game's released, what is wrong with users campaigning for changes to a product that they actually want?
 
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