dilatedmuscle
Member
I dont think it is so much an issue of opinion as it is blatant plot holes in the final 10 minutes of the game in what seemed to be 5 years of stellar story telling.
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Have gamers got too much power?
- Thread starter butter_stick
- Start date
MrCunningham
Member
This is what separates Nintendo from anyone else, they don't listen to their fans as closely as other developers do. If they did, Nintendo would've went out of business years ago. As a company, they are always looking to expand their business to people who are not gamers, and are not really fans of video games at all. See the Wii and Wii sports for that.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Not sarcasm. As someone whose been involved in those: they are not always as beneficial as you think. Cool features go away pretty quickly if people in those things don't "get" them. It's to streamline the game, complex or innovative things tend to not test well and don't make it into final product.
Well people on here like to say that anyone who picks up even 1 game for 5 minutes is a gamer so yes, we have all the power. That's why everyone is making ios crap now, that's why multiplayer and motion crap is being tacked on to everything, that's why call of duty is the industry's leading creative force right now.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Tellaerin said:
Player agency and deferred authorship aren't the same thing though, despite what Bioware's PR would have you believe.
In Mass Effect you simply guide your character along a branching network of events that are predefined by the real authors of the tale. You aren't creating a story, you are experiencing a particular subset of content by a process of exclusion.
Is promoting this as deferring control of the narrative to the user dishonest? A little, maybe, but its no worse than a stage magician not revealing the method behind his trickery.
The fact is that gaming is a business based on illusion, and unfortunately in the case of ME3 the logistics of maintaining the illusion reached a terminal point by the end. Could Bioware have built enough endings to satisfy everyone? Yeah, but that would have probably taken all their time and resources, and the unfortunate reality they had to build a game leading up to that denouement.
Don't get me wrong, I hate sloppy half-baked endings with a passion, but I think with ME3 they had basically painted themselves into an untenable position with all the smoke they were blowing up people's asses about how much control they actually had over the story.
PR fail, you betcha. But lets be real Molyneux has made a career out of overpromising and seems to have gotten away with it.
I'm not disputing that, I'm simply advocating the need for a middle ground. A director who has a singular vision and places his opinion above all else is just as bad as a game that's designed around focus groups and internet chatter.*
*Unless it's a low budget one person game. In which case, go to town. If it sucks, no one will care and nobody is out millions of dollars in development costs.
It probably comes down to whether someone thinks games are products/services or thinks that they're art.
Consumers can't have too much power when it comes to products and services, but the value of art is compromised by catering to the loudest and lowest critics.
My opinion is that a high budget game can't afford to be art.
Consumers can't have too much power when it comes to products and services, but the value of art is compromised by catering to the loudest and lowest critics.
My opinion is that a high budget game can't afford to be art.
Interficium
Banned
I, for one, welcome our new gamer overlords.
Exactly. AAA games are commerce. Anyone who gets hot and bothered is missing the point. If you want to cater to the massive audience (for massive sales), you better cater to the wants of that audience. Don't sell out on every single point of importance and then pull out the artistic card when it's convenient.
DR2K
Banned
They've been buying used, and as a result have forced poor publishers into finding new ways of getting money out of you.
famousmortimer
Banned
Gamers = Annie Wilkes
Industry = Paul Sheldon
Industry = Paul Sheldon
Yeah. But if you're making Gone in 60 Seconds and you don't like the audience critique, don't pull the artist card to defend your decisions. The vast majority of games are Gone in 60 Seconds and not Lord of the Rings.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
... wait, really?
You're going to pull out the Oppressed card for... video games?
Yes and no. It takes two to tango. BioWare keeps pandering to the fans, and they keep eating it up. It's a circle of life.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
You know the attach rate of From Ashes was close to 50% Day 1?
Significantly higher than most 30-60-90 day release plans.
May be said to hear it, but consumers ARE dictating those policies.
Significantly higher than most 30-60-90 day release plans.
May be said to hear it, but consumers ARE dictating those policies.
RoninChaos
Member
That DLC was very important for someone who is vested in the game's story. That's why it sold well. And that's why so many people were pissed about it. Consumers knew that if they wanted the complete story, they had to shell out. And it was EA's way of making a 60 dollar game a 70 dollar one.
If they had made James Vega DLC nobody would have given a shit, and the attach rate would have been shit. But make it someone who's mere presence in the game makes a huge difference from a story telling perspective, and the overall lore of the universe, of course it's going to sell.
dragonelite
Member
Aah oke sure let devs make games they want to make don't expect their following to pr for them or buy the game.
And games being Art yeah that stopped after paid day 1 dlc being introduced.
We are gamers and somehow to stupid to understand.
And its better for the press to write for a stupid audience then a smart one because then they need to research and probably think things through twice.
Same for writers thinking they have the talent to try something like ME 3 ending on his own instead of cooperating with his writing staff, atleast that is what i heard when masseffectGate was still a hot topic.
Wondering how far they are with the dlc and if they are even planning on releasing it.
And games being Art yeah that stopped after paid day 1 dlc being introduced.
We are gamers and somehow to stupid to understand.
And its better for the press to write for a stupid audience then a smart one because then they need to research and probably think things through twice.
Same for writers thinking they have the talent to try something like ME 3 ending on his own instead of cooperating with his writing staff, atleast that is what i heard when masseffectGate was still a hot topic.
Wondering how far they are with the dlc and if they are even planning on releasing it.
The problem is that entitlement has become a word for the gaming press to use even if it aint needed.
Cynicalbrit makes a good point regarding this and how pc gamers are getting screwed over with bad console ports that has technical issues that prevents us from enjoying the game.
Even those complaints are being called entitled, is asking for an FOV slider to a game really entitlement ? the answer is no because it´s about making sure we can play the game without getting a headache because the field of vision setting are not properly set.
And gamers are also consumers and they have every right to complain because like it or not games are a consumer product.
The Mass Effect 3 outrage was fans that was promised a conclusion and what they got was a horrible written ending that made no sense whatsoever.
Simply put bad storytelling and Biowares PR department was promising that the player would NOT get a A,B C ending and that´s excatly what they got.
And it´s a shame because the majority of the game is quite good.
Cynicalbrit makes a good point regarding this and how pc gamers are getting screwed over with bad console ports that has technical issues that prevents us from enjoying the game.
Even those complaints are being called entitled, is asking for an FOV slider to a game really entitlement ? the answer is no because it´s about making sure we can play the game without getting a headache because the field of vision setting are not properly set.
And gamers are also consumers and they have every right to complain because like it or not games are a consumer product.
The Mass Effect 3 outrage was fans that was promised a conclusion and what they got was a horrible written ending that made no sense whatsoever.
Simply put bad storytelling and Biowares PR department was promising that the player would NOT get a A,B C ending and that´s excatly what they got.
And it´s a shame because the majority of the game is quite good.
lol yup.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Should talented, creative people be over-influenced by their fans, many of whom will have no actual understanding of the medium in any meaningful way? No.
Should Bioware have responded to the issues regarding the ending? Yes.
They messed up. Choice vanished to be replaced by a randomly generated (in terms of who pops up where) fixed sequence of events no matter what you've done previously, and the random generator was clearly written in a rush as it would merrily pick someone who was here and show them light years away there in an eye-blink.
Don't even get me started on some elements of the ending apparently (so I gather) requiring me, after investing in three games of SP narrative, to play online when I don't want to to unlock them.
Bioware flunked and their comments show they know it. They tried too hard to force the MP and they clearly got caught short timeframe wise with actually having an ending so they threw something together - including not one but two weak Deus Ex Machina "get out of jails" into the bargain.
I mean shit, just one example is how they set up a nemesis called Harbinger for you in ME2 then fail to utilize that foe in any meaningful narrative way. The ending of ME3 tossed out most of the narrative up to that point which is simply astonishing in its naivety.
Should Bioware have responded to the issues regarding the ending? Yes.
They messed up. Choice vanished to be replaced by a randomly generated (in terms of who pops up where) fixed sequence of events no matter what you've done previously, and the random generator was clearly written in a rush as it would merrily pick someone who was here and show them light years away there in an eye-blink.
Don't even get me started on some elements of the ending apparently (so I gather) requiring me, after investing in three games of SP narrative, to play online when I don't want to to unlock them.
Bioware flunked and their comments show they know it. They tried too hard to force the MP and they clearly got caught short timeframe wise with actually having an ending so they threw something together - including not one but two weak Deus Ex Machina "get out of jails" into the bargain.
I mean shit, just one example is how they set up a nemesis called Harbinger for you in ME2 then fail to utilize that foe in any meaningful narrative way. The ending of ME3 tossed out most of the narrative up to that point which is simply astonishing in its naivety.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
My thoughts as well.
WrenchNinja
Member
Holy fuck this is a stupid article. Like this is the epitome of shitty game journalism articles.
An he's late to the party, Mass Effect 3 is old news. Hes not even maximizing his hit counter.
An he's late to the party, Mass Effect 3 is old news. Hes not even maximizing his hit counter.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
I don't thnk gamers in and of themselves have too much power. The Internet as a collective, and by proxy, whatever tasks it then chooses to undertake certainly does. This has clearly extended into gaming. Simply put: have enough people bitch and Bioware would have had to take notice.
The unfortunate part of it all is that sight unseen I doubt very highly there could have been an ending that Bioware could draft that would not have elicit this result.
The unfortunate part of it all is that sight unseen I doubt very highly there could have been an ending that Bioware could draft that would not have elicit this result.
WrenchNinja
Member
Have you actually beaten the game? There are so many simple ways they could have made a satisfying conclusion. Its like Hudson and Walters actively sabotaged it.
The thing I don't like about the "LOL devs/journalists making fun of their audience" argument is that they really aren't (or at least not gamers as a whole).
The subset of Mass Effect 3 complainers - the ones donating money, signing petitions and otherwise protesting the ending - are such a small portion of the audience that they no way in any shape or form constitute all of "gamers." Hell, even out of the 1.3 million people who bought Mass Effect 3, they are a very vocal minority.
Journalists/devs are calling Mass Effect 3 zealots "entitled," not the general gaming audience (or even the base of consumers who bought the game). I'm a gamer and I think the outcry is ridiculous, and I know other people would agree with me.
Is the ending bad? Yeah, but Mass Effect 3 is hardly alone in that aspect. Sometimes shit doesn't happen they way you want. Don't buy Bioware's next game then. Demanding a different ending is the definition of entitlement.
The subset of Mass Effect 3 complainers - the ones donating money, signing petitions and otherwise protesting the ending - are such a small portion of the audience that they no way in any shape or form constitute all of "gamers." Hell, even out of the 1.3 million people who bought Mass Effect 3, they are a very vocal minority.
Journalists/devs are calling Mass Effect 3 zealots "entitled," not the general gaming audience (or even the base of consumers who bought the game). I'm a gamer and I think the outcry is ridiculous, and I know other people would agree with me.
Is the ending bad? Yeah, but Mass Effect 3 is hardly alone in that aspect. Sometimes shit doesn't happen they way you want. Don't buy Bioware's next game then. Demanding a different ending is the definition of entitlement.
I haven't read the rest of this thread (I got games to play - sue me), but I don't think gamers have too much power in any meaningful way. They vote with their pocket and their votes aren't anything more than 1 in a million (or more).
I will say, though, that many gamers are way too cynical.
I will say, though, that many gamers are way too cynical.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Oh, christ. We're on that stupid "everybody who complains" is a "vocal minority" shit again. Yes, yes. Everybody who is for/against something you are not is just an entitled whiner. You've figured out the universe. Bravo.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Us gamers are to be listened to, not obeyed.
Hella true, full stop.
We have the power to not buy stuff. It's funny how many don't realize their power, or are too emotionally clingy to what their minds are realizing unpleasant-for-them things about to sever financial ties to. This is very evident when a sea change hits and zeitgeist is lost for a particular company or brand and they suddenly have the gumption to stop.
Hella true, full stop.
We have the power to not buy stuff. It's funny how many don't realize their power, or are too emotionally clingy to what their minds are realizing unpleasant-for-them things about to sever financial ties to. This is very evident when a sea change hits and zeitgeist is lost for a particular company or brand and they suddenly have the gumption to stop.
Robot Pants
Member
Always good to take an article seriously when the title is full of terrible grammar.
Next.
And if this about the ME3 ending debacle, BioWare never had to give in to the fans. And they shouldn't have. I would have respected them more.
Next.
And if this about the ME3 ending debacle, BioWare never had to give in to the fans. And they shouldn't have. I would have respected them more.
MooseKnuckles
Banned
First line of the article
How is this guy getting paid actual dollars to write this kind of garbage?
How is this guy getting paid actual dollars to write this kind of garbage?
Jake Tower
Banned
No. Power to the players.
On the other hand, game 'journalists' have too much 'power,' too little responsibility, professionalism, and critical writing skill.
Take this writer, for instance.
On the other hand, game 'journalists' have too much 'power,' too little responsibility, professionalism, and critical writing skill.
Take this writer, for instance.
exmachina64
Banned
I don't know whether you've played Mass Effect 3 and/or kept up with the subsequent developments; I honestly can't tell from your post.
I agree with the first half of your post. In fact, I think most people who've played the Mass Effect series would. I haven't seen anyone but Bioware claim that the player has the ability to truly define their own story. Again, few are upset over that current limit of gaming.
However, this is different from watching a stage magician. Presumably the analogue to the magician's method is the programming and related content creation that goes into making a video game. What gamers are upset about is how our limited ability to control the story was largely removed and the consequences of our actions left ambiguous in a series where this occurs infrequently.
This only becomes a case of resources when one takes into consideration the considerable pressure EA placed on Bioware to finish Mass Effect 3 in under two years. At that point, your argument devolves because this wasn't a case where a massive number of variables and poor marketing caused the illusion a video game provides to collapse. This was one of the worst companies in America forcing a developer to cut corners, causing a backlash from fans.
The gaming press also depend on their relationships with publishers for their ability to preview games, get scoops, bring in ad revenue, and stay employed.
phosphor112
Banned
... erm... the consumers make a market, not the companies... that's why the cable/video industry is going to shit. They are dictating what we want... in both prices and content and expecting things to stick.
No, fuck them.
No, fuck them.
If companies can sell people additional content after a game's released, or patch the game to modify it in some way, why shouldn't people lobby for the kind of changes they want? Anything more than 'either buy or don't buy' constitutes entitlement nowadays? Man, corporations have really conditioned some people well.
Frankenstrat
Member
This. Jesus christ, it's like people in the game industry are surprised that consumers are doing what they're well within their rights to do. If anything, it's the goddamn developers that are entitled in this case.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
What's almost as surprising to me is the amount of discussion in here. There's nothing to discuss.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Pretty much this.
I don't play Mass Effect so I'm not invested in it one way or the other, but maybe if they didn't deliver a botched product, then they wouldn't feel "bullied" by their fans. I love how this "article" has the audacity to play the bullied card in the first place since I'm pretty sure the DLC that fixes the ending is not gonna be free. It's just another example of nickle and dime-ing the consumer, and yet these people are suggesting that gamers are the ones abusing power here? Yeah, ok.
Exactly. Whoever wrote the article the OP is quoting is in severe need of a reality check. (Or how dynamics between a buyer and seller work.)
Ventilaator
Banned
Gamers thinking they have power is the equivalent of a dog thinking that he is very important because he got taken for a walk as soon as he implied that he needs to. Just because developers/publishers don't want you shitting on the floor doesn't mean that you have power.
Bioware was going to do DLC anyway. People crying about how much they want DLC just made them announce it faster. Operation Rainfall? You mean, people crying to Nintendo how much they want to give them money? What the hell was Nintendo gonna say to that, "No thank you?"
Meanwhile there's shitty DLC. People are crying about that from day one, and publishers listened... and added online passes and season passes as added moneypits. People cried about that, and publishers replied by starting to sell the real endings for games as DLC. How about you stop that with your "power" you fucks.
Bioware was going to do DLC anyway. People crying about how much they want DLC just made them announce it faster. Operation Rainfall? You mean, people crying to Nintendo how much they want to give them money? What the hell was Nintendo gonna say to that, "No thank you?"
Meanwhile there's shitty DLC. People are crying about that from day one, and publishers listened... and added online passes and season passes as added moneypits. People cried about that, and publishers replied by starting to sell the real endings for games as DLC. How about you stop that with your "power" you fucks.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
It seems like the more the offending developers and publishers are called out here, the more they find new ways to screw gamers over and then turning around and playing the victim to boot. The only thing that works here is to vote with your wallet. Everything else is bullshit.
Um... yea. It wouldn't be the first time...
ZombiePlatypus
Member
I don't wanna sound like a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the entire thing was planned from the beginning to drum up demand, excitement and desperation among fans.
But whatever. I'm just glad that, in the end, I got Xenoblad for a fair price without having to deal with bullshit DLC or draconian always-online DRM.
That reminds me, I need to pick up my Mother 3/MML 3 value pack.
Glass Rebel
Member
Nah, we don't have enough power. And we have to thank the corporate suckers that you find in every thread defending and trying to shut up "entitled whiners" for that.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
I'm not saying it's all on purpose but just not ruling it out. Mother apparently has licensing issues which to me is an incredibly stupid reason. If the consumer is ready and eager to buy then you better damn well figure out a way to make the product available.
As for MML 3, I don't wanna touch Capcom's bat-shit-crazy insanity with a 10 foot pole.