• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't think you remember the old days correctly. Aggro used to average 7 turns per game, but now it is 5 turns. That is not better, that is much worse.

No, it's not average 5 turns. It can win in 5 turns. That is about the shortest a game can last against pw and even aggro shaman and rarely they win on turn 4 with perfect draws (murloc decks in classic could do this btw). The shortest length is not the average.

I do not claim to know what the actual average is. I just don't buy it's 5 turns.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Before you bite the bullet, be aware that Amazon charges sales tax on coin purchases. Meaning with 7% sales tax, 50 packs costs 5349 coins instead of the 4999 you would expect.

25% discount means you still come out ahead, but any of the smaller coin packages are NOT worth it without some extra, limited promotion which they aren't running right now.

If you live in Delaware go for it, though!

I live in Oregon. No sales tax.
 

Dahbomb

Member
VS has done their card ratings poll:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...J7ndwGZrPuK2zbXzDVtdvMps1ooa_qg/viewanalytics



These are the results:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...J7ndwGZrPuK2zbXzDVtdvMps1ooa_qg/viewanalytics


Top 10:

Kalimos
Marsh Queen
Blazecaller
Open the Waygate
Jeweled Macaw
Fire Plume's Heart
Awaken the Makers
Primordial Glyph
Cluthmother Zavas
Spiritsimber Umbra

Crackling Razormaw just missed the top 10 with 0.1. Kalimos and Marsh Queen only cards that round up to a 5 (4.6 and 4.5) after that it's all 4.3 or below so even VS doesn't believe there are too many broken cards.

People who participated in the VS pool are really big on the new quests and flashy legendaries in general.


Bottom 10 (the #1 card is the worst one):

Ultrasaur
Giant Mastadon
Stormwatcher
Frozen Crusher
Sabertooth Stalker
Sated Threshadon
Pterodax Hatchling
Stegodan
Eggnaper
Explore Ungoro

Tortollan Primalist just escapes bottom 10.


Only the bottom 3 average out to a 1, the other cards round up to a 2 actually so even in the bottom end there isn't a big pile of trash.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I'm suprised at how bad Sabertooth Stalker is being rated. I think the card actually has some potential, and isn't bottom of the barrel.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I'm suprised at how bad Sabertooth Stalker is being rated. I think the card actually has some potential, and isn't bottom of the barrel.
I don't think it's THAT bad either but the issue is that most of the cards in the set really aren't that much worse than it either. So it's not really that the card is dumpster but rather pretty much every other card is better. They have kinda tightened up the pack fillers.

I think only the bottom 3 cards are actually horrendous. Like they could've been 1 mana less and still would've been fine.

Ultrasaur is universally considered as the worst card in the set. It's the biggest, dumbest idiot in the game.
Mastadon is like 2 mana above Ancient of War yet has similar stats. This should've been 8 mana, not 9 mana.
Stormwatcher is a bigger Harpy and Harpy is woefully unplayable. This could've been a 6 mana 4/8 Windfury... that way you are paying 1 mana for the Windfury and Elemental then 5 mana for 4/8 stats. Ok this one is probably pushing it at 6 mana but I think it's definitely crappy at 7 mana.
 

QFNS

Unconfirmed Member
Tortollan Primalist just escapes bottom 10.

That card is so tough to judge. I think it might actually be kinda good but only in Mage. It's probably trashcan tier in every other class. So like I'd give it a 3 maybe even a 4 for Mage but 2 or 1 for every other class. Does that average to a 2? Or just 1? Hard to say.

In Mage there is a pretty damn good chance you're gonna get direct damage, card draw, a secret or an AoE effect. There are 32 mage spells after the rotation if I counted correctly.

All of the AoE's won't kill your dude and will benefit your board (somewhat, even arcane explosion is 1 free damage). The card draw is ok. All the secrets are at least somewhat beneficial and after rotation there are something like 8 of those still. So that's already a 1/4 to get a good effect that is strictly beneficial. There are about 8ish direct damage spells and since there are tons of options of where those will go you can't really say. And since it's discover you at least get to pick your poison. The variance is big, but you can control it somewhat.

On an open board, I'd weigh the card something like this:
40% Strictly good outcome, kills opposing minions, draws you cards, etc
25% LUL Memes. Either it kills itself, hits your face, etc
35% does nothing. Casts spells that whiff due to no targets or whatever.

So yeah it's probably still bad in constructed, but in arena I'd DEFINTELY pick this as a Mage.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I tried to evaluate the card in Mage like other people said but the math never ends well.

People say this card is good if you get Arcane Intellect off of it... nah it isn't.

Arcane Intelliect is worth 3 mana, a 5/4 is a bad 4 drop so if you get Arcane Intellect you are still losing out on value as this is a a 8 mana card.

You really need to hit something that is 4 mana or higher for it to be worth it or the 3 mana card has to be something you desperately need like Ice Block/Barrier/Nova/Intellect.


In the end at 8 mana the card is just super expensive. That pushes it towards the bad category for me though not unplayable.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I could see it ending up in a Reno deck, if the meta demands for more AoE. But I don't see that happening.

For Sabertooth Stalker, I kinda feel it could fit into a Beast Druid deck. Play it turn 6, then turn 7 play Menagerie Warden + Earthen Scales. I am sure the majority of times you see the card played will be hunter getting it from RNG though.
 

Pooya

Member
the disparity between tar cards is interesting. I think lurker one is actually better than lord one, the more you pay for a 1 attack minion the worse it is, also lurker is far more playable in warlock than lord is in warrior, you don't need it.

I think tar creeper will be played in stuff like zoolock more than in any control deck, it's great at protecting your other guys and hard to kill on turn 3.

Hydra is also rated a lot better than it is, oh 'Fel Reaver replacement'. You can't race with this card, you just die instead. Fel Reaver this is not. It's literally unplayable against a lot of decks and board states, you just die on the spot. You could slam Fel Reaver whenever, you didn't care, that made the card good proactive option for aggressive decks and downside wasn't even relevant. 8/8s are good but not that good to play this trash. I remember when people thought wrathguard is amazing, turns out not even that is worth it.

Nesting Roc is actually a decent card too. 5 mana 4/7 is a great statline, the other 5 mana 4/7 we had before was Feugen, it was pretty good at board contesting. This guy is a beast and has a text too. While it might not become a taunt, it's such good stats that can be playable in midrange hunter. Hound master on this guy is very scary. It's certainly not a 2 to me compared with some other cards over there above it.

King Mosh is like DW without a huge drawback, 3. sure... Awaken the Makers I'd say is the most overrated card there.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Yeah I'm going to go with Clutchmother Zavas being the most overrated card in that Reddit poll.

There is zero chance that card is 5 stars.
 

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
Clutchmother has the potential to be crazy clunky. You probably keep it in the mulligan but you don't want to play it on curve.

It feels worse and clunkier than silverware golem.
 

gutshot

Member
I have to say I like our top 10 better than VS's. How can Vilespine Slayer not be in the top 10? That card is insane. One of the few clear 5s in the set to me.

BTW here is the spreadsheet of results from our ratings. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fOc2LgWfFiETMAfDEGkGx_OupxWSSJVTU4ADfs5hyTY/edit?usp=sharing

You can safely ignore the first tab as its just the raw data from the form. The second tab is the same data with an easier to read format. The third tab shows the cards in descending order by their average scores.
 

Dahbomb

Member
It's not easy to punish Hydra. People are saying you just trade your minions into it and deal a lot of damage to their face.... but then you just traded away your board into a single minion.

That card is a reverse noob trap. As in the opponent sees it and thinks it's a good idea to trade 4 minions into it and surrender their board.

Not to mention that you don't even have to play this card into a big board of weenies... Hell you play it in an aggressive deck that should already be winning on board and then play this as a slam dunk finisher.


In general Fel Reaver was/is better but against two classes it definitely resulted in an auto loss sometimes... Paladin and Mage. People thought Fel Reaver was one of the most broken cards in GvG and had big debates over it but in reality what happened was that you would go against one of those classes and get severely punished for it. Also no one ever talks about Fel Reaver showing which cards get discarded which makes it easy for the other opponent to play about round your hand and top decks.

A similar punish does not exist against Hydra. Best punish is a Cthun, the next best punish is like a Zoo deck with a bunch of imps on the board already. Both of these can be played around... you just don't play that onto Imps until they are taken care of.


All I about round saying is, don't be god damn shocked if Pirate Warriors toss this card in their deck. Aggro cards tend to find a way to get play. People thought Wrathguard was unplayable because LUL Shield Slam but that card has certainly seen play despite being worse than Hydra because Hydra can't be traded up into unlike Wrathguard (a 2 mana card can kill Wrathguard, it's very hard for a 5 mana card to kill the Hydra).


Edit: Oh wait there is in fact a mega punish now... the new Shaman Volcano card. That's an instant loss right there.
 
Are people not impressed with the Warlock quest?

For 5 mana you get two 3/2 minions right away, and after that it's another free two 3/2 minions every turn. Maybe I'm off on this, but it just seems like a super powerful Dreadsteed. Kind of an amazing card for me.

I feel like they really nailed this set - I'm excited for Warlock, Shaman, Priest, and Mage possibilities. They really touched on things I enjoy in card games this time around - so much better than the last crap set.
 

QFNS

Unconfirmed Member
It's not easy to punish Hydra. People are saying you just trade your minions into it and deal a lot of damage to their face.... but then you just traded away your board into a single minion.

That card is a reverse noob trap. As in the opponent sees it and thinks it's a good idea to trade 4 minions into it and surrender their board.

Not to mention that you don't even have to play this card into a big board of weenies... Hell you play it in an aggressive deck that should already be winning on board and then play this as a slam dunk finisher.


In general Fel Reaver was/is better but against two classes it definitely resulted in an auto loss sometimes... Paladin and Mage. People thought Fel Reaver was one of the most broken cards in GvG and had big debates over it but in reality what happened was that you would go against one of those classes and get severely punished for it. Also no one ever talks about Fel Reaver showing which cards get discarded which makes it easy for the other opponent to play about round your hand and top decks.

A similar punish does not exist against Hydra. Best punish is a Cthun, the next best punish is like a Zoo deck with a bunch of imps on the board already. Both of these can be played around... you just don't play that onto Imps until they are taken care of.


All I about round saying is, don't be god damn shocked if Pirate Warriors toss this card in their deck. Aggro cards tend to find a way to get play. People thought Wrathguard was unplayable because LUL Shield Slam but that card has certainly seen play despite being worse than Hydra because Hydra can't be traded up into unlike Wrathguard (a 2 mana card can kill Wrathguard, it's very hard for a 5 mana card to kill the Hydra).


Edit: Oh wait there is in fact a mega punish now... the new Shaman Volcano card. That's an instant loss right there.

Two things.
#1 Does Volcano actually deal its damage 1 at time for fucking 15 times? Why does Blizzard hate turn timers?
#2 I still think that despite Volcano, people would play that Hydra. I mean if it wins you game against 8 classes and you lose against Shaman only... I think you take that risk and just let it be dead against Control Shaman or whatever. Probably still ends up with a positive win rate.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Are people not impressed with the Warlock quest?

For 5 mana you get two 3/2 minions right away, and after that it's another free two 3/2 minions every turn. Maybe I'm off on this, but it just seems like a super powerful Dreadsteed. Kind of an amazing card for me.

I feel like they really nailed this set - I'm excited for Warlock, Shaman, Priest, and Mage possibilities. They really touched on things I enjoy in card games this time around - so much better than the last crap set.
That's the problem with the evaluation lol.

It's a good quest I think. Thing is that if you are up against another tempo deck you DO NOT want to even play that quest. As a Zoo/Discolock deck, you cannot afford to skip turn 1 at all. So against those match ups you mulligan away the quest. Against slower decks that you can afford to skip turn 1 on, that's where you play the quest and slow roll them with the Discards.

It's still difficult to get that quest requirement. That's 6 discards... in the game we have the following good Discards:

Soulfire 2x
Doomguard 2x (so that's 4 discards)
Darkshire Librarian


We have that new taunt card but that's not really good enough IMO to be run... maybe it is though. So you have a total of 10 discards that are possible with Doomguard potentially only discarding 1 card sometimes. You might actually need to also run Deathwing in this quest deck just to get that quest because it's very hard to draw into ways to discard 6 cards within a normal game which means that the Lakkari Sacrifice is something that can really only be done mid to late game at earliest. But that time the game is usually decided unless against a very slow deck.


So it's not as broken as it may seem and even if you pull off the quest... the first turn is a bit lackluster as you have basically played only 3.5 mana worth of stuff for 5 mana. It's really after the 2nd turn that you start to get good returns on this.


#1 Does Volcano actually deal its damage 1 at time for fucking 15 times? Why does Blizzard hate turn timers?
Yeah it actually deals 1 damage at a time as showcased in the video. So if you have a Frothing on the board with lots of minions... well LOL turn timer then.
 

gutshot

Member
Are people not impressed with the Warlock quest?

For 5 mana you get two 3/2 minions right away, and after that it's another free two 3/2 minions every turn. Maybe I'm off on this, but it just seems like a super powerful Dreadsteed. Kind of an amazing card for me.

I feel like they really nailed this set - I'm excited for Warlock, Shaman, Priest, and Mage possibilities. They really touched on things I enjoy in card games this time around - so much better than the last crap set.

Nether Portal is amazing value but it is quite slow. You pay 5 mana and don't even get the 3/2s right away, they come at the end of your turn. And the quest is one of the tougher ones to complete.

Two things.
#1 Does Volcano actually deal its damage 1 at time for fucking 15 times? Why does Blizzard hate turn timers?
#2 I still think that despite Volcano, people would play that Hydra. I mean if it wins you game against 8 classes and you lose against Shaman only... I think you take that risk and just let it be dead against Control Shaman or whatever. Probably still ends up with a positive win rate.

Hydra is also a dead card in an aggro mirror. You play it, you just gave your opponent a huge leg up in the race.
 

Pooya

Member
zoolock is going to be a thing, you can't play that card against zoo. In aggro mirrors you can't play that card, depending on if you went first/second if you're behind. So in general, you play that card against a control deck that doesn't have much board, they have removal for it instead, that's what control does. Having a card in your aggro deck that could stay in your hand is bad.

So they traded their stuff into 8/8? you just took something like 12 damage, and they played more stuff on board. That's not a good position to be in. Sure, it's great against druid.
 

Dahbomb

Member
zoolock is going to be a thing, you can't play that card against zoo. In aggro mirrors you can't play that card, depending on if you went first/second if you're behind. So in general, you play that card against a control deck that doesn't have much board, they have removal for it instead, that's what control does. Having a card in your aggro deck that could stay in your hand is bad.

So they traded their stuff into 8/8? you just took something like 12 damage, and they played more stuff on board. That's not a good position to be in. Sure, it's great against druid.
So you get 4 for 1 trade and take 12 damage... seems fine to me. If they are so ahead that they had 4 minions on board versus your 1 then they already won the game anyway if it's aggro vs aggro regardless of if you play that card or not.

That's like saying 477 is bad because if they have 4 minions on board it doesn't do anything and you lost the game anyway.

If it's an aggro race and they sink 4 minions worth of damage into a minion... that's damage that could've gone face over two turns because there was no way that 1 card was removing 4 minions anyway. If you had 4 minions that are like 3/2 each... it's STILL way better for you to just sink those minions into face rather than this minion. If you sink it into the hydra that's actually a bad play in most cases.


That's why I said this card is a reverse noob trap. I already know some dumb aggro player is going to misplay against it thinking they are winning the game because they sacked their minions into it and then run out of steam despite being ahead on face damage.
 

Pooya

Member
477 doesn't literally kill you.

If you have a card in your aggro deck you often don't want to play, that's not a card you want to have in your aggro deck that doesn't have draws and doesn't get to pick. That's not how it works.
 

Magnus

Member
For buying packs in Canada, can we do the Amazon Coins thing everyone raves about? Or is our cheapest way still to buy through Android/Google Play services?
 

Dahbomb

Member
477 doesn't literally kill you.

If you have a card in your aggro deck you often don't want to play, that's not a card you want to have in your aggro deck that doesn't have draws and doesn't get to pick. That's not how it works.
Well this is where we disagree because I don't agree that that this card is something that you often don't play... I think in most cases you are in fact playing it if you have it in your hand. You are talking about a fringe, already lost cause game where the opponent is ahead 4 minions on board versus 0 on your board and you play a single big minion into their small minions. Like that's not a good enough case for saying this card isn't that good... you are comparing near worst case scenario versus average or best case scenario.

That's like me saying Fel Reaver is an unplayable card because an upcoming meta is all Paladin and Freeze Mage. It's assuming only the worst.


Do the cards that are like MtG "enchantments" take up board space? I'm thinking of the Warlock quest reward, the Rogue legendary, etc.
Yes they take up permanent board space.
 

QFNS

Unconfirmed Member
Well this is where we disagree because I don't agree that that this card is something that you often don't play... I think in most cases you are in fact playing it if you have it in your hand. You are talking about a fringe, already lost cause game where the opponent is ahead 4 minions on board versus 0 on your board and you play a single big minion into their small minions. Like that's not a good enough case for saying this card isn't that good... you are comparing near worst case scenario versus average or best case scenario.

Yeah this is my take on the card also. It's a game winning card most of the time. I can't believe there are enough situations where you wouldn't play it compared to when you would.
 

Pooya

Member
well if somehow average game is about playing against control maybe you have point, it's not and this card will lose you the race more often than not by the simple reason that they remove your board and go face at the same time.

In pw, on turn 5 you want to play arcanite reaper. some direct damage and similar and win the game, not 8/8. Fel Reaver was as good to begin with because of innervate and mechwarper. The comparisons aren't very relevant overall. Maybe you could make a case for this in aggressive druid.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I mean, if the enemy makes stupid plays, yeah Hydra is good. But I assume anyone rank 10 and up won't trade a bunch of minions in unless that is how they would remove any other big minion.

I don't see people going full retard when Hydra is in play like they did with Fel Reaver.

Do the cards that are like MtG "enchantments" take up board space? I'm thinking of the Warlock quest reward, the Rogue legendary, etc.

Yes. What I find odd is that the Rogue Quest doesn't take up a board slot though, it just "Happens"
 

Dahbomb

Member
I mean, if the enemy makes stupid plays, yeah Hydra is good. But I assume anyone rank 10 and up won't trade a bunch of minions in unless that is how they would remove any other big minion.

I don't see people going full retard when Hydra is in play like they did with Fel Reaver.
AHAHAHAHAHA

That's a good one man.

You are severely overestimating the average HS player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eicLxgaJafY


At the very least early on if this card sees play then people will play incorrectly against it until they figure it out.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Ok, fine. I don't evaluate a card on the pretense the people will go full retard. It will likely happen, especially if it gets play as often as Fel Reaver was (Which was rarely), but if the card is popular good players will wise up after a few weeks, like with remembering to use Patches.

I still say the average case is going to be "Battlecry: Deal 6 damage to your hero", and it will be a slightly better Pit Lord. Also, if my choice was Fel Reaver or Hydra, I would always pick Fel Reaver. Even if Fel Reaver gives your opponent some information of what you now lack, the reality is that only a slight amount of the upper end players would use that information to dictate future turns.

Hell, the Reason Fel Reaver saw minimal play is that a 5 mana card that lacks a battle cry is actually to slow for most aggressive decks, and Hydra doesn't fix that.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I would pick Hydra over Fel Reaver in Hunter or Druid that utilize some beasts. Fel Reaver in Mech decks (Shaman and Mage).

Which seems fine to be honest. Again I never said this is a 5 star card or even a 4 star card, just that it's potentially playable. Hell I don't have a single card rated as a 5 in this set.

I think the 4/7 sometimes Taunt might be a better 5 mana beast to use for Midrange/curve beast decks. And let's be honest... every Beast deck is at the highest end a curve deck.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
So, do you guys think there is any card that has more future potential than Bloodbloom? While the card looks pretty poor this expansion, Blizard just needs to print a few spells that synergize with it for it to suddenly be amazing.
 

fertygo

Member
So, do you guys think there is any card that has more future potential than Bloodbloom? While the card looks pretty poor this expansion, Blizard just needs to print a few spells that synergize with it for it to suddenly be amazing.

Corrupting mist for whenever we can heal in control warlock again
 
What am I supposed to replace Astral Communion Druid with?... =[ At least I still have Renounce Darkness.

Any good theorycraft decks for silly funtimes?
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
My ISP thinks my modem is an old dog that needs to be taken out to pasture. Nothing they can do on their end, they claim.

I'm ordering a new modem from Amazon but it won't get here until Wednesday. So Dahbomb and I will probably have to record the review "stream" off Twitch. I will use OBS to record the video instead and then upload the video to YouTube.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Only the bottom 3 average out to a 1, the other cards round up to a 2 actually so even in the bottom end there isn't a big pile of trash.

Yeah, I have my complaints but the lack of 1 star cards with a lot of 2-3 star cards instead is one of the best things about this set.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Trump's all about the humongous razorleaf as what brings back handlock. 5 stars for him.

Trump's brain is working in the wrong direction. Handlock ran Ancient Watcher because it naturally synergized with other components that the deck was running. Handlock had 8 activators for it's two Ancient Watchers. Two silences, two sunfuries, two argus, two shadowflame. But without Molten Giant, running double argus and double sunfury is a lot less attractive.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I certainly hope people are wrong about Marsh Queen being good.

I can think of no worse thing for the game from this set than if that card ends up being the second best card in the set like is voted in that VS poll.
 
Without some sort of nerf to pirates most quests will be unplayable in the meta. The amount of taunts may make it hard for that particular face deck to compete but I am not optimistic. The jade punish is still out there on the other end to make playing aggro decks favorable for laddering, which means most quests will be relegated to playing for "
fun."
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I wouldn't discount the possibility of Pirates being buffed from the set either between the pirate crab, the randomized weapon, the 2 mana 2/2 adapt, the 5 and 6 mana 8/8s with little drawback, or the card that removes all cards that cost less than 3 mana.

We are talking about a nerf to most non-pirate decks here with the rotation, and mostly new taunts as answers when Pirates ignoring minions to go face isn't the biggest problem with Pirates, who just have too much board presence too quickly.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom