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[chromatic9]

This would make sense if Hellblade II's development time hadn't been so long. All of the things you presented as "Microsoft's goal for Gamepass" were ultimately achieved by Redfall and Hi-Fi RUSH. But that doesn't seem to have even remotely impressed Microsoft, as the two studios responsible were subsequently closed.

It's sad that games like Hellblade II are preached by the Xbox community before release as "a GOTY candidate" and when they turn out to be a gaming and commercial flops after release, they're suddenly just Gamepass fodder. But hey, at least LEGENDS like Klobrille gave the game a 10/10 for the first time in their “careers”. Things that Microsoft celebrates loudly on Twitter/X - but at the end of the day they only look at the $$$ and will sooner or later draw consequences from failures.

Well it still comes down to needing a certain amount of games for their sub base and there's other reasons to let go of Tango gameworks, the main man leaving, them wanting more staff and talking 4-5 years for another.

I don't think MS has liked the time and money spent on HB2, it has brought them a graphical showcase they wanted though. Ninja Theory has seen Tameem leave. If MS continue with them they could've pitched another showcase game with in 3-4 years now they have the tech in place, who knows. This next project could well be canned soon or next year or survive and release as MS need a certain amount and will probably revolve around how many have checked it out on game pass. They may see Ninja Theory as something to grow or shutdown. Game pass has a limit and the younger gens are focusing on a small selection of games so even these passion projects and content might bite the dust.

With AI, we'll see less people and quicker development in the next few years anyway, so another reason to shutdown studios.

 

[Calverz]

You cannot be fucking serious at all especially with your post history.
Redfall did better than this.
Bye bye ninja theory.

Deadly serious “Shadowkill”

 

[DarkBatman]

Are we sure they were expecting this?
They also thought Redfall would be a hit scoring several points higher

I can't imagine they expected that. Otherwise Greenberg wouldn't be reposting the top scores like a crazy person and celebrating how "everyone" loves the game.

Well it still comes down to needing a certain amount of games for their sub base and there's other reasons to let go of Tango gameworks, the main man leaving, them wanting more staff and talking 4-5 years for another.

I don't think MS has liked the time and money spent on HB2, it has brought them a graphical showcase they wanted though. Ninja Theory has seen Tameem leave. If MS continue with them they could've pitched another showcase game with in 3-4 years now they have the tech in place, who knows. This next project could well be canned soon or next year or survive and release as MS need a certain amount and will probably revolve around how many have checked it out on game pass. They may see Ninja Theory as something to grow or shutdown. Game pass has a limit and the younger gens are focusing on a small selection of games so even these passion projects and content might bite the dust.

With AI, we'll see less people and quicker development in the next few years anyway, so another reason to shutdown studios.

I'm starting to no longer know what position you represent. Did MS want Gamepass Fodder now? Or did they want a graphical showcase? If the latter, then it makes no sense to launch a graphical showcase in the middle of the console generation - you usually do that at the beginning to impressively prove to people what the console can handle. A console that has now crashed badly in sales and will certainly not pick up again with Hellblade II.

 

[yazenov]

I hope Microsoft were smart enough to know what numbers to expect. They’re similar to A Plague Tale: Requiem which was also on Game Pass day 1.

Furthermore, the largest player base for this type of game is probably on PlayStation. This lines up more with games like Until Dawn or Detroit than it does with the usual Xbox games. Sony has tons of story-driven games on offer and I imagine Hellblade II would be much more likely to attract the somewhat sizable PlayStation crowd that plays stuff such as GOW or TLOU on story difficulty.

Agreed. It's basic business 101, know your customer (and their purchasing habits).

It is the equivalent of making an exclusive big budget JRPG for the Xbox and hoping for the best when even our average joe here in this forum knows that it does not cater to the Xbox audience.

It's like the Xbox division is run by dumb dumbs. Hopefully, Satya Narayana will clean the house and fire these fools.

 

[Sushi_Combo]

The game was sent out to die, writing was on the wall with the zero marketing put into it. They should have at least released it on PS where there is an audience that is invested in these types of games.

 

[Reckheim]

In terms of sales, yeah, it probably did poorly, but in terms of what Microsoft really wanted from the game, nobody can know unless Microsoft talks publicly about it so calling it a failure because of Steam sales is very misleading imo

Microsoft will never talk publicly about what they expected from the game; but based on their multiplatform initiatives and their recent studio closings; they probably expected profits. And you don't have to be a genius to come to the conclusion that this game did nothing for gamepass subs or sales.

Maybe before the Activision purchase xbox could have said it added to the gamepass line up; but I doubt Nadella and the gang care about that anymore.

I think the studio is important to MS cause of their UE5 and motion capture experience so they wont close them; but we wont be seeing a game like this out of them again. Not under the new leadership.

 

[djjinx2]

1. A small group of people did. Hellblade 1 was never a breakout hit.
2. But it worked because Hellblade 1 was also a small indie game. It didn't have a budget of more than $100 million, which HB2 would easily have.
3. Hellblade 1 worked (kind of) because it was the first time. Hellblade 2 doesn't work because it's a 1:1 repeat telecast of the previous game, with no structural improvements or expansions.
4. What's the point of Microsoft's acquisition and war chest if Ninja Theory still makes the same game that they did when they were independent and strapped of funds?

Hold the fuck on, 100 MILLION.

Have you been smoking crack.

*I wanna see the receipts.gif*

 

[chromatic9]

I can't imagine they expected that. Otherwise Greenberg wouldn't be reposting the top scores like a crazy person and celebrating how "everyone" loves the game.

I'm starting to no longer know what position you represent. Did MS want Gamepass Fodder now? Or did they want a graphical showcase? If the latter, then it makes no sense to launch a graphical showcase in the middle of the console generation - you usually do that at the beginning to impressively prove to people what the console can handle. A console that has now crashed badly in sales and will certainly not pick up again with Hellblade II.

You expect a black and white position, it's about a certain amount content, I don't say MS will keep these studios afloat. With Tango, they could see the main man leaving as a huge problem and other reasons, they may have a lower threshold of "fodder" as you call it, or passion projects, varied content. HB2 certainly has huge questions to continue, unless the game pass numbers on console are supportive, perhaps Hifi rush wasn't. MS may also want at least one graphical showcase or keep them on to grow like their own Naughty Dog, they envy TLOU.

With game pass at its basic level you put your money into the pot and yield some games. Some devs will survive some will get the boot, some will get a lift and leave it behind for outright sales some will stick around to get projects funded.

 

[Sentenza]

I don't particularly like to kick who's already down, and I find the predominant tendency on this forum to CHEER every time a Microsoft game does poorly incredibly distasteful.

But then again in the case of Hellblade II have genuinely idea of who could have played the first and have "strong anticipation" (let alone HYPE) for the sequel.

Putting aside the production value ("wow, nice graphics") it's structurally basically anything I don't care for a game to be: too concerned with its cinematic appeal and its themes to deliver anything on the front of gameplay, mechanics, player agency or freedom.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

The game was sent out to die, writing was on the wall with the zero marketing put into it. They should have at least released it on PS where there is an audience that is invested in these types of games.

Misconception imo. Dont think The Order 1886 sell particularly well on playstation and hits from Naughty Dog or Sony Santa Monica that sells very good have not only great narration but also gameplay.

 

[Heisenberg007]

And that's why I say it's just a lot of speculation, nevermind, I'll cover, you're right,, I'll just move on, HB2 release really made toys war even more annoying

It's not really. This game will be on PS5, and maybe even Nintendo Switch 2. Just like almost all Xbox games.

The console war was over months ago.

 

[Sushi_Combo]

Misconception imo. Dont think The Order 1886 sell particularly well on playstation and hits from Naughty Dog or Sony Santa Monica that sells very good have not only great narration but also gameplay.

That's just one of many games, it did end up selling about 1.6M copies.

 

[evanft]

Sony has become real brand name in PC gaming now. That is why Sony does not require huge amount of Marketing.

Sony is just like Nvidia right now in PC gaming and Xbox is AMD.

 

[dorkimoe]

newsflash. Not everyone rushes to play the game week 1. Some of us are in the middle of other games. I hate that gaming has became like Netflix. If it doesn’t do well the first week then it’s “dead”

 

[diffusionx]

Well it still comes down to needing a certain amount of games for their sub base and there's other reasons to let go of Tango gameworks, the main man leaving, them wanting more staff and talking 4-5 years for another.

I don't think MS has liked the time and money spent on HB2, it has brought them a graphical showcase they wanted though. Ninja Theory has seen Tameem leave. If MS continue with them they could've pitched another showcase game with in 3-4 years now they have the tech in place, who knows. This next project could well be canned soon or next year or survive and release as MS need a certain amount and will probably revolve around how many have checked it out on game pass. They may see Ninja Theory as something to grow or shutdown. Game pass has a limit and the younger gens are focusing on a small selection of games so even these passion projects and content might bite the dust.

With AI, we'll see less people and quicker development in the next few years anyway, so another reason to shutdown studios.

It seems clear to me that MS has no interest in spending all this time and money on disposable singleplayer games like this anymore. They will keep "prestige" studios around like BGS (lmao) and make sure to get TES, Fallout, Doom, etc., but stuff like this, Avowed, Psychonauts, it's over. I don't see a place for Ninja Theory in the direction MS is going.

newsflash. Not everyone rushes to play the game week 1. Some of us are in the middle of other games. I hate that gaming has became like Netflix. If it doesn’t do well the first week then it’s “dead”

It's always been like this. Like in the 1990s, if a game didn't do well in the first month or so it was a bomb. The threshold was far different but that's pretty much how it works, for everything.

 

[Kataploom]

Not really, Microsoft closing Tango when they just released a game that actually had conversation about it long before the initial release rises valid concerns about the fate of Ninja Theory and the sales (or "engagement") of Hellblade 2

No, actually we know.

Game Pass subscription has stalled and isn't growing. A 6-hour game could do nothing for engagement.

That leaves only revenue from game sales. Since we know that GP users don't buy games, that only leaves Steam sales, and they have been downright awful.

Microsoft wanted the game to sell a lot of copies and generate millions in revenue, and that hasn't happened. That's why they sold the game on Steam (outside of GP) in the first place. So, yes, we can very confidently say that the game has failed.

Besides, who can trust Xbox's words after they denied Hi-Fi Rush being a failure, called it a "breakout hit in all key measurements and expectations", and then shutter the studio because the game had indeed flopped lol.

Are you trying to tell us the 2 games with a higher peak in Hi-Fi Rush and Redfall didn’t flop and only microsoft knows?

The game won’t even be top 10 in NPD.

Naturally. And Microsoft will of course not communicate commercial success publicly, but will keep successes and failures secret.
But I'm sure fantastic engagement numbers will be released in a week or two because 10 million+ people watched the launch trailer out of the corner of their eye or something-somthing Gamepass.

Microsoft will never talk publicly about what they expected from the game; but based on their multiplatform initiatives and their recent studio closings; they probably expected profits. And you don't have to be a genius to come to the conclusion that this game did nothing for gamepass subs or sales.

Maybe before the Activision purchase xbox could have said it added to the gamepass line up; but I doubt Nadella and the gang care about that anymore.

I think the studio is important to MS cause of their UE5 and motion capture experience so they wont close them; but we wont be seeing a game like this out of them again. Not under the new leadership.

See? You don't have actual numbers, all you apply your criteria in order to call or a failure, as Reckheim said, we basically will never know, only MS knows at this point, deal with it, if it was a failure, we won't know unless it was a success, which I think it was on game pass, considering HB2 was top 1 and even HB1 was top 6.

Regarding Tango, I'm absolutely sure it's closure didn't have to do with studio performance but something else, probably because Mikami left whatever, so you shouldn't use it as an example, studio performance was clearly good by MS expectations.

MS can't expect profits from a game alone if they're giving it away in a sub service, come on, common sense since to escape you or you are just toy warrying.

It's not really. This game will be on PS5, and maybe even Nintendo Switch 2. Just like almost all Xbox games.

The console war was over months ago.

Uh... Well, yeah I think so, then take a break from it, IDK...

 

[Darkness_Arises]

See? You don't have actual numbers, all you apply your criteria in order to call or a failure, as Reckheim said, we basically will never know, only MS knows at this point, deal with it, if it was a failure, we won't know unless it was a success, which I think it was on game pass, considering HB2 was top 1 and even HB1 was top 6.

Regarding Tango, I'm absolutely sure it's closure didn't have to do with studio performance but something else, probably because Mikami left whatever, so you shouldn't use it as an example, studio performance was clearly good by MS expectations.

MS can't expect profits from a game alone if they're giving it away in a sub service, come on, common sense since to escape you or you are just toy warrying.


Uh... Well, yeah I think so, then take a break from it, IDK...

Tango closing because Mikami left would be like Nintendo closing because Miyamoto left. Mikami was just the senior mentor at Tango, he was not actively involved in game dev, Johanas was. I hope that poor dude gets a job.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

In terms of sales, yeah, it probably did poorly, but in terms of what Microsoft really wanted from the game, nobody can know unless Microsoft talks publicly about it so calling it a failure because of Steam sales is very misleading imo

The question is what can Microsoft want ? They killed better studios(tango), let worse ones stay untouched for far too long(343i?), and did not give help to the ones that needed it(arkane austin). Each publisher has their own way to plan and react to the market. Square Enix for example make games and expect 10 millions+ for games like Tomb Raider that obviously don't have that much potential. Sony can have a success like Helldivers 2 and not give us sales numbers for stupid reasons, and that is before even talking about the PSN fiasco. And Microsoft? Well let's agree that after Tango we don't really know where they are at right now. Steam sales are our best info and even if I understand your point I feel that we can discuss about it here. Maybe in the future Microsoft will be more open with Gamepass numbers?

 

[Kataploom]

Tango closing because Mikami left would be like Nintendo closing because Miyamoto left. Mikami was just the senior mentor at Tango, he was not actively involved in game dev, Johanas was. I hope that poor dude gets a job.

The question is what can Microsoft want ? They killed better studios(tango), let worse ones stay untouched for far too long(343i?), and did not give help to the ones that needed it(arkane austin). Each publisher has their own way to plan and react to the market. Square Enix for example make games and expect 10 millions+ for games like Tomb Raider that obviously don't have that much potential. Sony can have a success like Helldivers 2 and not give us sales numbers for stupid reasons, and that is before even talking about the PSN fiasco. And Microsoft? Well let's agree that after Tango we don't really know where they are at right now. Steam sales are our best info and even if I understand your point I feel that we can discuss about it here. Maybe in the future Microsoft will be more open with Gamepass numbers?

What Daneel Elijah said and the fact that I read several times during Tango closure days that Phil said they only close studios when they underdeliver or when leadership leaves (I think it had to do with Liohead closure), is what makes me think it doesn't have to do with studio performance, it makes ZERO sense that MS expect profits from studios directly and not a contribution to the bigger strategy for Game Pass

 

[LiquidMetal14]

This feels like this generations LAIR. Who gives a crap if it was MSFT published.

 

[sendit]

I wonder if Microsoft will even bother having a studio port this to PS5 with sales seemingly so dismal.

That's even more reason to port it. It just stokes more fuel to the fire. Microsoft isn't going third party out of the kindness of their own hearts.

 

[rhodesianshepard]

That's even more reason to port it. It just stokes more fuel to the fire. Microsoft isn't going third party out of the kindness of their own hearts.

I honestly doubt they will port it over unless Microsoft were already working on the port before release, which is possible. On PS5, I doubt it sells more than 100-200k, especially at 50$. It would be marginal profits at best

 

[RoboFu]

Is hellblade 2 even a multiplayer game? Why would people keep playing it after they beat it?

 

[onQ123]

newsflash. Not everyone rushes to play the game week 1. Some of us are in the middle of other games. I hate that gaming has became like Netflix. If it doesn’t do well the first week then it’s “dead”

News flash!

 

[demigod]

See? You don't have actual numbers, all you apply your criteria in order to call or a failure, as Reckheim said, we basically will never know, only MS knows at this point, deal with it, if it was a failure, we won't know unless it was a success, which I think it was on game pass, considering HB2 was top 1 and even HB1 was top 6.

Regarding Tango, I'm absolutely sure it's closure didn't have to do with studio performance but something else, probably because Mikami left whatever, so you shouldn't use it as an example, studio performance was clearly good by MS expectations.

MS can't expect profits from a game alone if they're giving it away in a sub service, come on, common sense since to escape you or you are just toy warrying.


Uh... Well, yeah I think so, then take a break from it, IDK...

You don’t need microsoft to come out and give you numbers to know if the game flopped financially. There are analysts that gives numbers or says how well a game did or didn’t do. Everyone saw how badly Redfall did day 1 on Steam and knew it flopped, were they wrong because microsoft didn’t give them numbers?

So answer me this. How many years do you think it took them? How much do you think it costed to make this game?

Maybe you should go ask your daddy me and aaron greenturd how well the game did.

 

[Oppoi]

I watched all of it on youtube and let me tell you i spared myself of some strain in my left arm skipping through the six hours of boring bore. My right arm did get some serious carpal tunnel looking for gameplay. I rate this game 10/10 because Game Pass!

 

[Kataploom]

You don’t need microsoft to come out and give you numbers to know if the game flopped financially. There are analysts that gives numbers or says how well a game did or didn’t do. Everyone saw how badly Redfall did day 1 on Steam and knew it flopped, were they wrong because microsoft didn’t give them numbers?

So answer me this. How many years do you think it took them? How much do you think it costed to make this game?

Maybe you should go ask your daddy me and aaron greenturd how well the game did.

So speculation.

You can see how Redfall was a failure from many standpoints, even Phil Spencer own words around that time, not because "it didn't break Steam sales record" or whatever when it's a product made primarily to drive subs into Game Pass.

Also, not only Redfall was bashed from even before it released, Hellblade 2 is being mostly praised by those that played it, knowing it can improve but nothing like absolute shitstorm Redfall got, in this scenario, there's nothing in the gaming comunity saying if it flopped or not.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it definitely succeded, I'm saying there's nothing right now that can point publicly how MS sees the game release within their long or short term goals.

 

[jroc74]

So speculation.

You can see how Redfall was a failure from many standpoints, even Phil Spencer own words around that time, not because "it didn't break Steam sales record" or whatever when it's a product made primarily to drive subs into Game Pass.

Also, not only Redfall was bashed from even before it released, Hellblade 2 is being mostly praised by those that played it, knowing it can improve but nothing like absolute shitstorm Redfall got, in this scenario, there's nothing in the gaming comunity saying if it flopped or not.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it definitely succeded, I'm saying there's nothing right now that can point publicly how MS sees the game release within their long or short term goals.

After Tango getting shut down.....why even care about anything publicly someone from MS says?

 

[dottme]

newsflash. Not everyone rushes to play the game week 1. Some of us are in the middle of other games. I hate that gaming has became like Netflix. If it doesn’t do well the first week then it’s “dead”

Let’s be honest, I’m playing game late but I think this kind of player are really small now.
The FOMO pushed by the publisher to get the money asap did work really well in the video game industry.

 

[demigod]

So speculation.

You can see how Redfall was a failure from many standpoints, even Phil Spencer own words around that time, not because "it didn't break Steam sales record" or whatever when it's a product made primarily to drive subs into Game Pass.

Also, not only Redfall was bashed from even before it released, Hellblade 2 is being mostly praised by those that played it, knowing it can improve but nothing like absolute shitstorm Redfall got, in this scenario, there's nothing in the gaming comunity saying if it flopped or not.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it definitely succeded, I'm saying there's nothing right now that can point publicly how MS sees the game release within their long or short term goals.

Folks in this thread saying it flopped except you. You’re in denial.

I like how you dodged my question about how much you think the budget was and went on defensive mode.

 

[Kataploom]

Folks in this thread saying it flopped except you. You’re in denial.

I don't follow the masses, maybe I'm not that weak minded, idk, I just believe what I see, maybe you're all are right, but as of now I don't see how your arguments for saying it flopped, are 100% valid at all.

 

[Kataploom]

After Tango getting shut down.....why even care about anything publicly someone from MS says?

That's something I would subscribe to... Yet, I don't see Steam performance as a valid source of all truth, we don't know which KPIs MS managed, which engagement, sales, etc. they expected, but we know for sure that direct profits in the shape of short term cash from that game isn't somthing they expect... Hell, we don't even know actual budget.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

we don't know which KPIs MS managed, which engagement, sales, etc. they expected,

Don't worry neither does MS

 

[Kataploom]

Don't worry neither does MS

All of you know too much I guess, and as the sole ignorant of MS internals and intricacies of its management, I'll just leave

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I don't follow the masses, maybe I'm not that weak minded, idk, I just believe what I see, maybe you're all are right, but as of now I don't see how your arguments for saying it flopped, are 100% valid at all.

I think that is fair...but to say that arguments of this game flopping are 100% invalid is 100% dismissive of the actual situation.

 

[Kataploom]

I think that is fair...but to say that arguments of this game flopping are 100% invalid is 100% dismissive of the actual situation.

No, I'm just saying the doom and gloom regarding game performance shouldn't be measure solely on Steam performance, since the game had other goals for MS, they're focused on Game Pass and that's all they care about, what the game generates somewhere else seems to count as a bonus to them

 

[demigod]

No, I'm just saying the doom and gloom regarding game performance shouldn't be measure solely on Steam performance, since the game had other goals for MS, they're focused on Game Pass and that's all they care about, what the game generates somewhere else seems to count as a bonus to them

 

[BizarroPete]

Press X to win. GOTY

I think you mean press X and RB for the win.

 

[SRTtoZ]

I mean I hope so. Wasn't Bleeding Edge a flop?

 

[Kataploom]

What does it have to do with anything on Hellblade 2? For me Tango closure had to do with something else but studio performance, I already said it, but the Toys War seems to be all people in this thread care about so whatever I guess

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

All of you know too much I guess, and as the sole ignorant of MS internals and intricacies of its management, I'll just leave

Lol look. We all know MS boxed themselves into a shit situation. They went on an acquisition spree on two premises. That the industry would continue it's hypergrowth post COVID and that gamepass would grow into the netflix of gaming.

Neither of those things happened. The situation changed. And the studios measurement of success have also changed as a result. They no longer have the luxury of gamepass subsidising their flops. The subscription numbers can't justify that. They have to be self sustainable. Hence the multiplatform initiative.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

No, I'm just saying the doom and gloom regarding game performance shouldn't be measure solely on Steam performance, since the game had other goals for MS, they're focused on Game Pass and that's all they care about,

it is simple. the doom and gloom regarding the performance is not based on the Steam numbers alone, there is also the number on Xbox itself:
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/senu...-games-rankings.1670997/page-5#post-269232463

furthermore, the level of "engagement" for a 5-hour game with bad word of mouth will not be the best.

what the game generates somewhere else seems to count as a bonus to them

it was not enough for Hi-Fi Rush...

 

[Iced Arcade]

Well at least this traction will guarantee a PS port release

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

What does it have to do with anything on Hellblade 2? For me Tango closure had to do with something else but studio performance...

because of this:

they're focused on Game Pass and that's all they care about

If Game Pass couldn't save Tango with a better output of games (quality and quantity).....

 

[Kataploom]

because of this:

If Game Pass couldn't save Tango with a better output of games (quality and quantity).....

What does it have to do with HB2 performance on Steam?

 

[demigod]

What does it have to do with anything on Hellblade 2? For me Tango closure had to do with something else but studio performance, I already said it, but the Toys War seems to be all people in this thread care about so whatever I guess

You seriously can’t be this ignorant. You were talking about gamepass metrics and I gave you a link about an ms executive praising Hi-Fi Rush’s metrics.

 

[Oppoi]

Katapoom's "what does it's" made me rethink everything. I love Xbox now and I beleive in Phil Spencer. In Phil Spencer we trust!

 

[graywolf323]

Katapoom's "what does it's" made me rethink everything. I love Xbox now and I beleive in Phil Spencer. In Phil Spencer we trust!

hopefully Kataploom earned a bonus for converting you

 

[BizarroPete]

you don't need to dogde in this game or dodge and attack are the same button?

You have to dodge stuff like fire attacks, otherwise you can try to block/parry attacks but the parry window is small (smaller than the last game) so you have to have the timing down.

 

[Oppoi]

hopefully Kataploom earned a bonus for converting you

You know, Game Pass really is the worlds best most absolutely bestest unbeatable value. You'd be crazy to pass on Game Pass.