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[Borgnine]

AMC was having a Godfather marathon that I sat down and watched for some reason. These things are already like 3 hours long but with commericials it basically took all day to watch them. So anyway Part II has always been one of my all time favorite movies, I also like it much mote than Part I. But while I was watching this time it occured to me that I don't think I've ever really understood exactly what the hell is going on.

See the thing is that there's: THE TRUTH, that is, what actually occurred and what everyone's motivations for their actions were. But then there's also:

- what Michael thinks happened
- what Michael wants Frank Pentangeli to think he knows
- what Michael wants Hyman Roth to think he knows
- what Hyman Roth wants Michael to think
- what Hyman Roth wants Frank Pentageli to think

And all this comes out at the same time and it's revealed through double and triple crosses, so I can't keep anything straight. The internet has been surprisingly unhelpful, so I come to you.

1. Why did Hyman Roth want Michael killed? This is the main one, the whole movie hinges on this but I can't seem to find the answer. It looks like the most popular motivation is revenge for Moe Green. But why would Hyman want Michael killed if he also wanted his 2 million dollars to invest in his Havana thing?

2. "Michael Corleone says hello." I actually ran across a website that spelled this one out better than I could, so just go there and read #2: http://www.filmwad.com/three-nitpic...-ii-is-worse-than-its-predecessor-5046-p.html

3. Also read #1 from that website.

4. This is a small one, but why exactly did they bring Frank Pentangeli's brother in to the senate hearing to stare down his brother? I always thought that by seeing his brother it reminded Frank of some honor or some shit, but it could also mean "we can get to your family." Which one is it?

 

[Veidt]

Solo said something about the Godfather just now. Can he see the future? Does this mean solo is the new leader?
What about me?

Spoiler

Planning on watch TGF trilogy this week sometime

 

[Ninja Scooter]

to answer #4 real quickly, it was an honor thing. Basically the old school version of "STOP SNITCHING".

 

[Jin]

Honestly, I never cared about Micheal's story and I'm just as confused as your are. I like GFII because of Vito's storyline.

 

[otake]

AMC was having a Godfather marathon that I sat down and watched for some reason. These things are already like 3 hours long but with commericials it basically took all day to watch them. So anyway Part II has always been one of my all time favorite movies, I also like it much mote than Part I. But while I was watching this time it occured to me that I don't think I've ever really understood exactly what the hell is going on.

See the thing is that there's: THE TRUTH, that is, what actually occurred and what everyone's motivations for their actions were. But then there's also:

- what Michael thinks happened
- what Michael wants Frank Pentangeli to think he knows
- what Michael wants Hyman Roth to think he knows
- what Hyman Roth wants Michael to think
- what Hyman Roth wants Frank Pentageli to think

And all this comes out at the same time and it's revealed through double and triple crosses, so I can't keep anything straight. The internet has been surprisingly unhelpful, so I come to you.

1. Why did Hyman Roth want Michael killed? This is the main one, the whole movie hinges on this but I can't seem to find the answer. It looks like the most popular motivation is revenge for Moe Green. But why would Hyman want Michael killed if he also wanted his 2 million dollars to invest in his Havana thing?

2. "Michael Corleone says hello." I actually ran across a website that spelled this one out better than I could, so just go there and read #2: http://www.filmwad.com/three-nitpic...-ii-is-worse-than-its-predecessor-5046-p.html

3. Also read #1 from that website.

4. This is a small one, but why exactly did they bring Frank Pentangeli's brother in to the senate hearing to stare down his brother? I always thought that by seeing his brother it reminded Frank of some honor or some shit, but it could also mean "we can get to your family." Which one is it?

1: Hyman Roth wanted Michaels money but not his partnership. The money was supposed to have already been there, had the attack on Michael succeeded, Hyman would have actually lost but that's something he couldn't have known.

 

[KratosKilla]

to answer #4 real quickly, it was an honor thing. Basically the old school version of "STOP SNITCHING".

I thought number 4 was his brother would be whacked if you don't say the right things.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I thought number 4 was his brother would be whacked if you don't say the right things.

nah he would have shamed his family if he snitched in front of him. Its some old school sicilian shit.

 

[KratosKilla]

nah he would have shamed his family if he snitched in front of him. Its some old school sicilian shit.

Not what I got from it at all.

 

[StriKeVillain]

Not what I got from it at all.

Watch it again. I believe Michael later in the movie says to someone: "It was between the brothers."

I can't find the exact quote/context.

 

[bud]

Not what I got from it at all.

iirc, his brother looks at him like: ''how dare you?'' i think it was implied that at some point the corleone family helped the pentangeli's out, so betraying them would be dishonorable. so yeah, an honor thing. but it's been a while since i last saw it, so i could be wrong.

 

[Borgnine]

1: Hyman Roth wanted Michaels money but not his partnership. The money was supposed to have already been there, had the attack on Michael succeeded, Hyman would have actually lost but that's something he couldn't have known.

So you're saying Hyman wanted to wait until he got Michael's money before he had him killed, but the opportunity to take him out came up before he had the chance to secure the money? But again was the primary motivation revenge?

 

[otake]

So you're saying Hyman wanted to wait until he got Michael's money before he had him killed, but the opportunity to take him out came up before he had the chance to secure the money? But again was the primary motivation revenge?

No, Hyman was a pro. It wasn't personal, it was business.

 

[Borgnine]

Watch it again. I believe Michael later in the movie says to someone: "It was between the brothers."

I can't find the exact quote/context.

Again here's the thing, is that ACTUALLY what it was, or was it what he wanted Kay to think?

 

[nemesun]

1- I always assumed it was a revenge for Moe Green hit, and also the way he got rid of all the families simultaneously.
2-I assumed he was setting up Michael and Roth tried to frame him and get Michael out of the picture when the assassination plot failed.
3---
4-It was the case of family honor and how snitching would taint the reputation of not just him but the whole family.

Frank Pentangeli: Those were the great old days,you know... And we was like the Roman Empire... The Corleone family was like the Roman Empire... :

Tom Hagen: When a plot against the Emperor failed... the plotters were always given a chance... to let their families keep their fortunes. Right?

Frank Pentangeli: Yeah, but only the rich guys, Tom. The little guys got knocked off and all their estates went to the Emperors. Unless they went home and killed themselves, then nothing happened. And the families... the families were taken care of.

 

[Borgnine]

No, Hyman was a pro. It wasn't personal, it was business.

If his plan was to take 2 million from Michael and then have him killed, then why did he try to kill him before he had the 2 million?

 

[Guzim]

Again here's the thing, is that ACTUALLY what it was, or was it what he wanted Kay to think?

From wiki:

The finished film leaves unclear exactly what about his brother's presence motivated Frank to change his story. The final film only states that Vincenzo Pentangeli is himself a Mafia chieftain in Sicily.[1] An early draft of the film explains that Vincenzo, shocked that Frankie is about to betray the Corleones to government authorities, attends the hearing to remind Frankie that he must not break the Mafia's code of silence, Omertà. His brother's mere presence and icy stare directed at Frankie serve as a threat that if Frankie follows through with his planned testimony, retribution will be taken against his children, who are living in Sicily under Vincenzo's guardianship

 

[Borgnine]

From wiki:

Ohhhh okay, this helps. I didn't even catch that Vinnie was a Mafia chieftain. I think it works better as the Omertà thing, I just wasn't sure because of the conversation with Kay.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

If his plan was to take 2 million from Michael and then have him killed, then why did he try to kill him before he had the 2 million?

Because then Fredo takes over the family and hilarity ensues.

 

[Panda Bear]

Oh man, this thread made me go back and watch some of the classic scenes from I and II on youtube. Hagen is perhaps one of the biggest ballers in all of fiction.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

The traiter on the compound had to have been Fredo, as hard as it is to imagine him killing the assassins. They make it a point to show his wife screaming that they're right outside the window. They must have come to him after the attempt.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Because then Fredo takes over the family and hilarity ensues.

I would have loved to have seen that movie.

 

[otake]

Again here's the thing, is that ACTUALLY what it was, or was it what he wanted Kay to think?

In that case, I think the Brothers presence next to Michael communicate to Frank that he was wrong and Michael was/is a friend. Frank clearly believed, his brother had to have good reason to stand next to Michael, he even says his brother was tougher than he was. Clearly there was an understanding between Franks brother and Michael and his presence was enough to communicate that.

 

[otake]

If his plan was to take 2 million from Michael and then have him killed, then why did he try to kill him before he had the 2 million?

Johny Ola was sent to confirm the money was coming, he had a meeting with Michael prior to the hit were Michael said as much. He didn't know the money wasn't actually there.

 

[Borgnine]

Johny Ola was sent to confirm the money was coming, he had a meeting with Michael prior to the hit were Michael said as much. He didn't know the money wasn't actually there.

Oh ok ok, this was that "Hyman Roth always makes money for his partners" conversation right? I guess I missed where he Uncle Junior thought the money was already transferred.

 

[otake]

Oh ok ok, this was that "Hyman Roth always makes money for his partners" conversation right? I guess I missed where he Uncle Junior thought the money was already transferred.

Exactly. Honestly, splitting hairs over The Godfather I or II should be considered blasphemy. These movies are the i-ching. You should be banned for questioning them!

 

[Masaki_]

Roth basically wanted Michael out of the business. One less competitor. Michael reveals that to Fredo in Havana. Also, I think the Rosato brothers deliberately botched the assassination attempt, since Pentangeli's testifying against Michael was part of Roth's plan.

Edit: Or maybe his original plan was really to kill Pentangeli, but then took advantage of the unexpected, but favorable failure.

 

[JGS]

AMC was having a Godfather marathon that I sat down and watched for some reason. These things are already like 3 hours long but with commericials it basically took all day to watch them. So anyway Part II has always been one of my all time favorite movies, I also like it much mote than Part I. But while I was watching this time it occured to me that I don't think I've ever really understood exactly what the hell is going on.

See the thing is that there's: THE TRUTH, that is, what actually occurred and what everyone's motivations for their actions were. But then there's also:

- what Michael thinks happened
- what Michael wants Frank Pentangeli to think he knows
- what Michael wants Hyman Roth to think he knows
- what Hyman Roth wants Michael to think
- what Hyman Roth wants Frank Pentageli to think

And all this comes out at the same time and it's revealed through double and triple crosses, so I can't keep anything straight. The internet has been surprisingly unhelpful, so I come to you.

1. Why did Hyman Roth want Michael killed? This is the main one, the whole movie hinges on this but I can't seem to find the answer. It looks like the most popular motivation is revenge for Moe Green. But why would Hyman want Michael killed if he also wanted his 2 million dollars to invest in his Havana thing?

2. "Michael Corleone says hello." I actually ran across a website that spelled this one out better than I could, so just go there and read #2: http://www.filmwad.com/three-nitpic...-ii-is-worse-than-its-predecessor-5046-p.html

3. Also read #1 from that website.

4. This is a small one, but why exactly did they bring Frank Pentangeli's brother in to the senate hearing to stare down his brother? I always thought that by seeing his brother it reminded Frank of some honor or some shit, but it could also mean "we can get to your family." Which one is it?

I haven't seen this movie in a long time. I like 1 much better.

1. Moe Green hit, but also I believe Micheal poo-pooed the Cuba deal.
2. Probably a plot hole or maybe used for possible wire tapping in the room?
3. Personally whike watching the movie, my assumption is there is more than one traitor in the Coleone compound. It happened before.
4. This is not an honor thing...at least not entirely since I can't rember things entirely. However, Corleone was flat out sayng that Frank's family was going to be hurt, even if he had to go to Sicily to do it. If anything, it showed how low Michael stooped to protect the family (Including killing his own brother).
There was some kind of conversation with the Corleones after the trial with Frank basically stating that if he didn't testify, his family was safe. It was a threat. The Corleones couldn't get to Frank, but they could get to the rest of his family.

 

[Borgnine]

Roth basically wanted Michael out of the business. One less competitor. Michael reveals that to Fredo in Havana. Also, I think the Rosato brothers deliberately botched the assassination attempt, since Pentangeli's testifying against Michael was part of Roth's plan.

Edit: Or maybe his original plan was really to kill Pentangeli, but then took advantage of the unexpected, but favorable failure.

It would all make sense if the plan was to get Frank to think Michael was trying to kill him by saying the "says hello" line but then letting him live in the end. But they only stop trying to kill him when a cop shows up, and if the cop was part of the plan, then why did they get in to a shootout with him?

The best I can figure is the "says hello" line was an insurance policy just in case the assassination of Frank failed. But everything works out so perfectly and so much better because of that line that I find it unbelievable.

 

[otake]

It would all make sense if the plan was to get Frank to think Michael was trying to kill him by saying the "says hello" line but then letting him live in the end. But they only stop trying to kill him when a cop shows up, and if the cop was part of the plan, then why did they get in to a shootout with him?

The best I can figure is the "says hello" line was an insurance policy just in case the assassination of Frank failed. But everything works out so perfectly and so much better because of that line that I find it unbelievable.

To me, it was just something funny to say. I don't think Roth planned that though he did take advantage of the result. As established in the beginning of the money, the Rosato brothers had difficulty with Frank, they were under the protection of Roth and Michael and they knew it. When Frank comes to them they knew it was because Michael told him to so, from their point of view, it's kind of funny because they had the go ahead to kill Frank. If I was in their shoes I would have found it funny as well.

 

[JGS]

To me, it was just something funny to say. I don't think Roth planned that though he did take advantage of the result. As established in the beginning of the money, the Rosato brothers had difficulty with Frank, they were under the protection of Roth and Michael and they knew it. When Frank comes to them they knew it was because Michael told him to so, from their point of view, it's kind of funny because they had the go ahead to kill Frank. If I was in their shoes I would have found it funny as well.

Why do assassins talk at all? The more I think about it, the more I think the assassin was revealing that Corleone was going to be framed for it regardless sort of joking, but certainly not thinking that he was going to botch an easy hit.

Also, was there wire tapping back then?

 

[Masaki_]

It would all make sense if the plan was to get Frank to think Michael was trying to kill him by saying the "says hello" line but then letting him live in the end. But they only stop trying to kill him when a cop shows up, and if the cop was part of the plan, then why did they get in to a shootout with him?

The simplest explanation is the cop wasn't part of the plan. Roth just got lucky that Pentangeli survived and came to believe Michael had betrayed him. I'm not even sure if Roth actually told the Rosatos to kill Pentangeli, maybe it was their own will.

Make no mistake, luck plays a big part in the plot and that would be just the first time Roth gets lucky in Godfather II.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

The cop wasn't in on it. Carmine Rosato is surprised when he comes in. They must have planned to leave Frankie for dead and have the bartender go get the cop but the cop came in early.

Roth had to have ordered the hit or fake hit. It's the whole point of the Moe Green scene.

 

[nemesun]

The cop wasn't in on it. Carmine Rosato is surprised when he comes in. They must have planned to leave Frankie for dead and have the bartender go get the cop but the cop came in early.

Roth had to have ordered the hit or fake hit. It's the whole point of the Moe Green scene.

I concur, that's the logical explanation.

 

[panda21]

i just watched this and i thought it was explained that (at least according to michael) frank pentangeli was the one behind the hit on michael, because michael refused to do what he wanted? that was why michael went to talk to hyman roth in the first place.

i just assumed that somehow pentangeli was staying in the compound when it happened, since he had been at the party thing.

as for the 'michael corleone says hello' thing, i suppose its possible that roth ordered them to kill him as revenge for michael (without telling michael about it), since pentangeli was an enemy of roth's anyway. it was just luck that they were interrupted and he didnt die.

i don't see how roth could have done it on purpose - how could roth even have known michael would end up being an enemy? he was trying to get him in on the cuba deal and was going to kill him anyway, so pentangeli talking to the police would have just interfered.

 

[otake]

i just watched this and i thought it was explained that (at least according to michael) frank pentangeli was the one behind the hit on michael, because michael refused to do what he wanted? that was why michael went to talk to hyman roth in the first place.

You are kidding, right?

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Poor Fredo. I REALLY hated Michael at the end of the movie.

 

[joeyjoejoeshabadoo]

Number 2 always bugged me but I do like the loud mouth hit man theory.

EDIT:

4. This is a small one, but why exactly did they bring Frank Pentangeli's brother in to the senate hearing to stare down his brother? I always thought that by seeing his brother it reminded Frank of some honor or some shit, but it could also mean "we can get to your family." Which one is it?

It was all about honor.

Michael knew that having Pentangeli see his brother (who was probably a super old school mobster back in Sicily) would eat at his guilt for running to the Feds. That's also the reason why he killed himself.

 

[Xeke]

Poor Fredo. I REALLY hated Michael at the end of the movie.

I'd be worried about somebody who didn't hate him by the end of the movie.

 

[panda21]

You are kidding, right?

about what? michael says that himself in the film?!

 

[JGS]

Poor Fredo. I REALLY hated Michael at the end of the movie.

Him killing Fredo made sense in this movie, given the context of Godfather I which is where I really didn't like him by the end. I didn't like him at all thoughout this movie, but still loved his dad.