CornBurrito
Member
He could have accepted money from elsewhere. He didn't need to deal drugs to do it.
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I Just Finished Breaking Bad Last Night, Can't Fathom The Skyler Hate (Spoilers)
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He could have accepted money from elsewhere. He didn't need to deal drugs to do it.
CornBurrito
Member
I don't think every person that dislikes Skyler is a misogynist. But there are people who, when asked to explain why they dislike her, will talk about her cheating as the primary factor. It seems weird to dislike one character for cheating, but not dislike a murderer/drug peddler.
A Link to the Past
Banned
So for instance, if Ted jaywalked, it would be just as bad as murder/drug dealing? That's immediately where your conceit fails - "they're both criminals" is a removal of valuable context. Her reasons for cheating were also her trying to spite Walt.
The bolded doesn't fly. Here is the chain of events as I remember them:
1) Walter sees he has cancer and so he decides he'll be adventurous. Remember when Jesse said "Why are you suddenly breaking bad"? Walter's answer was: "For the first time in my life I am awake!"
2) His first attempt at breaking bad failed miserably. Botched drug deals and botched murder attempts. Then he says to Jesse: "We're done".
3) His cancer gets worse and worse and Skylar eventually finds out about it.
4) Then he's given a free ride - employment at Grey Matter, possibly making a six-figure salary, with excellent medical insurance as a side perk.
5) He refuses re-employment at Grey Matter because he considered it charity, and then further refuses all his medical bills being paid because, again, it's charity.
6) Then he reunites with Jesse, after initially swearing him off, and says "Let's cook".
He NEVER needed to cook meth to support his family. Gretchen and Elliott loved Walter. Prior to him Breaking Bad they would've done anything for him. Walter's family was just fine.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Did people just wipe it from his memory that Walt explicitly says that he got into the drug trade for himself? The narrative that he was doing it for his family isn't even supported by the character by the end of it!
Walt is the product of toxic masculinity. It is shown off in the show in the very first episode - Hank is ribbing him, Skyler is kind of a matriarch of the household, Bogdan doesn't treat him with respect, nor do his students. His actions are motivated by a desire to be the patriarch, to be the ribber. It's why he actively tries to rape Skyler in one episode. The show is basically about someone who felt that he was cheated out of the good life, and wanted to get back at everything that put him in his station.
Walt is the product of toxic masculinity. It is shown off in the show in the very first episode - Hank is ribbing him, Skyler is kind of a matriarch of the household, Bogdan doesn't treat him with respect, nor do his students. His actions are motivated by a desire to be the patriarch, to be the ribber. It's why he actively tries to rape Skyler in one episode. The show is basically about someone who felt that he was cheated out of the good life, and wanted to get back at everything that put him in his station.
ThisGuy
Member
I never said I was disgusted by or hated Skylar first off, I get the impression you believe what you said and not what I posted.
Seriously? He was laundering money as his business was tanking and she looked down on him herself. Why she chose him was strange. History or not, dude was lame.
What excessive pride or elaborate writing are you talking about? I'm using plain speak and pretty basic reasoning.
People ignore that she tried to stay with him when she thought it was weed, then gave up on him when she found out it was meth, tried to deal with him peacefully, then he wouldn't sign the divorce papers, then he got emotionally abusive and used the police and her children against her, and then finally she fucked Ted.
People act as though Walt was an angel and then she just decided to pluck his wings off.
Don't forget Walter feeling out of control because of seeing his dad die slowly in the hospital because of his degenerative disease which made him want to have control and never be seen as weak.
A Link to the Past
Banned
If you didn't cut off my post in your quote, part of the answer for why she chose him would be given to you.
ThisGuy
Member
Yeah I seen it just now, edited after your edit. Trying to keep up with you lol. To spite him sure, that's why she cheated. You're missing my original post. It was who she cheated with, not that she cheated. That's why I looked down on her. She herself looked down on Ted. To me, it's weaker writing. Like I've said initially.
Plus how they ended her character. I didn't like that either.
prag16
Banned
*CTRL+F* "misogyny"
Gaf can't have any threads on the off topic side that don't involve bigotry accusations of some kind I guess.
Of course misogyny is a factor for some people (read: assholes), but there are PLENTY of valid reasons to hate on the character outside of that. Blanket statements like that are nearly worthless to any discussion.
Seeing that charge brought up by Vince Gilligan himself is VERY disappointing to me. (I'd call him salty if I wasn't thoroughly sick of the drastic overuse of that term around here.)
People brought up Margaret (Boardwalk Empire), Jessica (Homeland), and Carmela (Sopranos) as comparisons who were all supposedly hated on vigorously. That's honestly news to me. I liked all those characters, but couldn't stand Skyler.
What made Walt a great character was that, taken on a case by case basis, in the context of the show, it WAS conceivable to justify most of his actions with just a bit of mental gymnastics. He isn't just a blatant cartoon character super villain (until very late). But as people have said, that's totally separate. This is a TV show, for entertainment. The buzzkill reasoning is probably pretty close to the mark, if you want to boil it down.
Gaf can't have any threads on the off topic side that don't involve bigotry accusations of some kind I guess.
Of course misogyny is a factor for some people (read: assholes), but there are PLENTY of valid reasons to hate on the character outside of that. Blanket statements like that are nearly worthless to any discussion.
Seeing that charge brought up by Vince Gilligan himself is VERY disappointing to me. (I'd call him salty if I wasn't thoroughly sick of the drastic overuse of that term around here.)
People brought up Margaret (Boardwalk Empire), Jessica (Homeland), and Carmela (Sopranos) as comparisons who were all supposedly hated on vigorously. That's honestly news to me. I liked all those characters, but couldn't stand Skyler.
What made Walt a great character was that, taken on a case by case basis, in the context of the show, it WAS conceivable to justify most of his actions with just a bit of mental gymnastics. He isn't just a blatant cartoon character super villain (until very late). But as people have said, that's totally separate. This is a TV show, for entertainment. The buzzkill reasoning is probably pretty close to the mark, if you want to boil it down.
Because it's a tv show, man.
Cheating is her betraying the main character of the show, killing is something that happens in these type of shows. In real life is cheating as bad as killing? Of course not, not even in the same universe. Killing is something that happens in these type of shows and a lot of times it's seen as heroic.
Breaking Bad threads always turn into this, people judging everyone as a person for their opinions about a fantasy show. Shit is not that deep.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Just sayin', the fact that you didn't notice the hate for those other characters suggests to me that maybe your perspective on whether misogyny is a major factor in judging her character is somewhat skewed
Walt tries to force sex on two different people, that's worse than cheating right?
Walt tries to force sex on two different people, that's worse than cheating right?
Primethius
Banned
I never liked Skylar but never hated her either. Was largely in the middle on how much I liked her character. I did end up liking her in the last season quite a bit though. But that's primarily because Walt was a fucking moron and just completely unlikable in that season.
They introduced neo-nazis and had a child killed and I still couldn't remotely sympathize with Walt. His death was too good for him.
They introduced neo-nazis and had a child killed and I still couldn't remotely sympathize with Walt. His death was too good for him.
Yeah, Walt is a perfect human being and never did anything wrong, right?
What the hell are you talking about? What you said has nothing to do with what I or the post I was replying to were talking about.
A Link to the Past
Banned
That's the thing though, Walt is deified. Like I said earlier, he's a poster child for fans not understanding the character. There are fans, and a lot of them, who actually think that he was justified to do everything that he did in order to achieve his goals, no matter how self-serving or dangerous.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
By the way, folks, it's Skyler, not Skylar. Thanks.
Nameless
Member
Love Skyler but she wasn't much of a character in the first season, just another potential foil for Walt to out wit and another reason for the audience to sympathize, maybe even identify with his character--after all no one likes a nag. And yes, she was a nag. She was written to be an unlikable shrew of a wife that heaped shit on Walt right along with the rest of Universe and some people never got passed that.
The character blossomed from S2 on, though, and Anna Gunn's performance made the show what it was in a lot of ways.
The character blossomed from S2 on, though, and Anna Gunn's performance made the show what it was in a lot of ways.
Okay? Not sure what that has to do with me.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I understand where they're coming from - I went through a Skylar phase myself!
ThisGuy
Member
That last season was weak as hell. It was probably the only season I was rooting for Jesse and wanting to see more of him. Didn't care for the Nazis though. How do you go from the cartel/gustavo to that? Supposedly having connections across seas. It just seemed like a reach with such a weak setup.
BronsonLee
Member
It's worth noting that the show takes some deep turns as Walt does.
Season 1 is a bit comedic, even. Walt and Jesse suck at this. Skyler is nagging him without knowing he's got cancer. Walt Jr just wants breakfast. Etc etc etc.
The fouler it gets, the more silly it seems to hate on Skyler IMO
Season 1 is a bit comedic, even. Walt and Jesse suck at this. Skyler is nagging him without knowing he's got cancer. Walt Jr just wants breakfast. Etc etc etc.
The fouler it gets, the more silly it seems to hate on Skyler IMO
A Link to the Past
Banned
"Cheating is her betraying the main character of the show"
I was responding to that comment, and thus brought up the far more severe thing that Walt did (to her, even). Yet, amazingly enough, a wife who has basically been infantalized and emotionally abused by him, cheating on him is a betrayal as opposed to simply a logical conclusion to being married to a monster.
I had no problem with the Nazis. I thought it was an interesting motif, where Walt defeats a villain who is, perhaps, his better, only to be thwarted by shit-eating redneck types.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Dying husband who murdered someone and emotionally abused her while she was trying to get him to sign the divorce papers. Seriously, I don't see how people are making Walt out to be a victim of cheating - by that time, he had done most everything he could to show Skyler what kind of person he was.
Skyler is someone that was put in a horrible situation as a human being. If she was a real life person I would never judge her for leaving Walter or turning him to the police. Your husband is cooks meth and kills people? Fuck yeah, leave that dude.
This, however, is a show. Skyler cheating on Walter with Ted is a direct betrayal of the main character of the show and Walter killing other killers and drug dealers isn't a direct betrayal to Skyler. Which is what the comment I was replying to was comparing.
Her cheating and him killing, in the context of it being a show, aren't really comparable. Now if you talk about Walter's direct betrayal of Skyler's trust or other things where he directly hurt her then that would be comparable.
"People ignore that she tried to stay with him when she thought it was weed, then gave up on him when she found out it was meth, tried to deal with him peacefully, then he wouldn't sign the divorce papers, then he got emotionally abusive and used the police and her children against her, and then finally she fucked Ted.
People act as though Walt was an angel and then she just decided to pluck his wings off."
The relationship was OVER and Walt was acting like a child.
Skyler's pain was palpable that entire season leading up to it.
Mighty Chin
Banned
Like all great shows when you are watching as it airs you fall victim to the hate during the down times. Lost and BSG are the same for a lot of people. Just endless complaints. Marathon them then you don't have time for your brain to dwell upon it.
My hatred of Skylar had nothing to do with the characters moral authority. Whether she was a good person, a victim, right or wrong - I don't give a fuck. I care about the quality of the writing, the performance and the narrative. Anna Gunn is excellent, what Gilligan and co. gave her was not.
As time passed, it became crystal clear that the drug empire half of the show was infinitely more interesting than the family side. Her presence on screen meant the show was fundamentally less enjoyable. That was enough reason to dislike the character or criticize the show, but then we got to Season 5 and truly dumb shit happened with that character.
Skylar having the most cartoonish, episode killing breakdowns and then ordering Walt to kill Jesse two episodes later. Dull fucking scenes where Marie is wondering why, oh why, is my sister such a spaz! So difficult to stomach that crap opposite some of the amazing stuff with Walt, Jesse, Mike, Lydia, etc on the other side of the show. Overall, the point to their existence was to give Walt something to lose, or work to NOT lose. They were the rationalization for all of his shit. I didn't see a big reason for them to be as present as they were.
It would have been a better show if their roles were marginalized as the show progressed.
As time passed, it became crystal clear that the drug empire half of the show was infinitely more interesting than the family side. Her presence on screen meant the show was fundamentally less enjoyable. That was enough reason to dislike the character or criticize the show, but then we got to Season 5 and truly dumb shit happened with that character.
Skylar having the most cartoonish, episode killing breakdowns and then ordering Walt to kill Jesse two episodes later. Dull fucking scenes where Marie is wondering why, oh why, is my sister such a spaz! So difficult to stomach that crap opposite some of the amazing stuff with Walt, Jesse, Mike, Lydia, etc on the other side of the show. Overall, the point to their existence was to give Walt something to lose, or work to NOT lose. They were the rationalization for all of his shit. I didn't see a big reason for them to be as present as they were.
It would have been a better show if their roles were marginalized as the show progressed.
Nameless
Member
That was a last ditch effort to get Walt to sign the divorce papers and move out. It was pretty much war at that point. Also can you blame her for gravitating towards the one positive person, place, thing in her life?
Sky did some narly shit but I can't blame her for that.
People caring more about goonery isn't Vince and co's fault, no matter how much "better" (I loved the domestic stuff and Skyler is my third favorite character after Hank and Walt) it was written in your view, vitrol would have been thrown at it.
It was a necessary component for the show to work, though i'm biased because it has some of my favorite moments.
old manatee
Banned
There were a bunch of quality dramas at once where the show would follow a man around in the world doing exciting, sometimes illegal things and then periodically checking in at home to a wife who is bitter and resentful of the protagonist for doing the things that make the show fun to watch. Skyler is a pretty good version of that wife character because she gets involved in laundering the money at least and isn't just an endless nag.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
The Skylar Hate quickly went from opinions about a character in a TV show to real world level bullshit very quickly.
Yes. Walter was trying to make money for his family.
But there are two things that trump this:
1) It was fucking meth.
2) Making money for his family became a happy byproduct once he decided to not take the Gray Matter job.
Walter killed people. He treated Jesse like shit the entire series, even going as far as to requisition him as his own son since he needed total control over his life. He made a guy, presumably through threats, poison a child. He blew up a fucking nursing home.
But all that is okay because she cheated.
What kind of MRA bullshit is this?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Are you really trying to feign surprise that a thread about Skyler White's character reception would have the word "misogyny" pop up in it? Especially after 7 pages? Especially when you further cite the fact Vince Gilligan has used the word himself? Why would you try to frame the fact there was, and still is, a misogynist aspect to many of the complaints, as some sort of weird, substanceless compulsion on behalf of a hive-mind in the face of that?
It's not like it's going to wipe away that aspect, and it's not like you need to do that in order to make your complaints stand out more for being not misogynistic. Trust me, if they actually are, they'll stand out all on their own, as the alternatives are so thoroughly rooted in the appreciation of the male power fantasy.
The fact that you have to open with that (along with the fact Gilligan named it outright) speaks to how silly it is to minimize that part of the argument out of hand with a simple CTRL+F
Again, the arguments against Skyler are easily understood. They're not too complicated. And they almost always tend to point less towards her as a character, and more towards how you as a viewer consume the show. And agreement/disagreement tends to run along the lines of whether you enjoy the show for its power fantasy elements more than you do the character drama.
That a subsect of the power fantasy fans might be in it because of how it specifically speaks to an impotent man making himself potent doesn't negate the strains of misogyny that could feed into that.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It's weird how little hate Jesse gets compared to Skyer, despite being a legitimately wretched and all-around stupid person, unlike Skyler. Of course you still felt sorry for him by the end of the series because, even though he was a complete idiot, he was still a victim. But yeah. Quite telling.
Why would anyone hate Jessie? You make it sound like one of the reasons people dislike Skyler is because they enjoy victim blaming and since Jesse is a victim as well then they must dislike him, too.
[edit]
No one is going to hate Jesse for being 'wretched' when it's a crime show. People don't dislike mobsters in mobster movies because they kill other mobsters. People also aren't going to hate Jesse for sometimes being kind of an idiot since he was a capable character a lot of times.
I really can't think of a reason why you're surprised more people don't dislike him.
bananafactory
Banned
Didn't even realize Skyler-hate was a thing until now. Never had a problem with her, she seemed to be one of the few sane people on the show.
A Link to the Past
Banned
IMO, while I agree to an extent, I think that Jesse was arguably the character after Walt who got the most "perspective time" on-screen helped.
Of the contingency of fans who blindly love Walt, I would be surprised too since Jesse throughout the series was usually at odds with Walt. They were barely friends - they were business partners who were often enemies to one another.
travisbickle
Member
Walter White's a nutcase who believes the only bad outcome to becoming a meth cook/dealer is getting caught.
His wife is a normal person.
His wife is a normal person.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It actually comes up quite a bit, usually in the form of complaints as to his "emo" nature. Which is bullshit, the idea of describing that man as "emo" seems ridiculously out of touch (as is the use of "emo" in and of itself, really).
But people tend to dislike Jesse as part of that male power fantasy shit. He annoys that in a different way. Walt is enjoyed/respected because he refuses to accept his percieved impotency, and does whatever it takes to reverse it. Jesse doesn't want to do that, and is fine staying in his lane at a certain point. There's an acceptance of what he is that runs counter to the ascent of Walt, and so people reject him for being a pussy, for being a simp, for being a whiny bitch, so on and so forth.
You notice the gendering that's going on there with the negatives though, right?
Jesse, by the end, wants to be done with Walt just as much, if not moreso, than Skyler does. And actively does more than Skyler does to stop him. And yet he doesn't get the hate for that on the level Skyler does.
They clashed together a lot but they always had each others back. At least from Jesse's point of view, later in the show he completely trusted Walter and tried his best to help him out. Even when it was in his best interests not to, he still did it because he cared about Mr. White. They had an odd relationship for sure but there was a lot of mutual respect between them.
Also, they were both partners in crime which is something Skyler was not. While Skyler was in direct opposition to what Walter wanted to do, Jesse was always aiding him. Even when Walter didn't need Jesse he still fought to keep him since he respected him.
BronsonLee
Member
That's because Jesse is the main man
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
So why didn't Skyler just turn Walter in to Hank/Police?
I mean if we are going on the line of "Logic" and what must be "Right" or "Sane" without considering each character's own flaws, fears, strengths, and well, human nature. (Speaking in reference to Walter not accepting that desk job from Grey Matter)
I mean if we are going on the line of "Logic" and what must be "Right" or "Sane" without considering each character's own flaws, fears, strengths, and well, human nature. (Speaking in reference to Walter not accepting that desk job from Grey Matter)
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
I think saying it was "toxic masculinity" that drove Walt to do what he did is misguided. He didn't want a better station for himself because of sociocultural forces that had taught him that he, as a man, was supposed to be "in charge". He did what he did because he was basically a sociopathic egotist who secretly harbored contempt for basically everybody and everything around him, because he was drunk on his own internal fantasy of himself being a genius who deserved more than what he actually got. He didn't culturally learn those fantasies, they arose organically from inside himself.
Edit: Skyler is kind of a piece of shit, though. Standing by your husband being a dealer is one thing, but once it became clear he was involved in MUCH more, failing to turn him in was utter weakness and selfishness.
Edit: Skyler is kind of a piece of shit, though. Standing by your husband being a dealer is one thing, but once it became clear he was involved in MUCH more, failing to turn him in was utter weakness and selfishness.
prag16
Banned
I'm NOT surprised. That's the joke. Any time there's any plausible avenue to level a sexism/racism/etc charge, the "hivemind" here (you said it, not me) is ALL over it like shit on stink. Of course it's justified sometimes, but when sweeping generalizations are made about a vague "they" like in this topic, it usually just seems like a way to skirt actual issues and shut down discussion.
Nevertheless, it sounds like you agree that it's entirely possible for people to hate the character without misogyny being involved, so I'm good.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I said it as a means to discount its existence. As evidenced by the fact I continued to argue that there are obviously varying viewpoints regarding the negative reception of her character.
I said it to call attention to how useless it was to cite it in any way as a means to strengthen your argument. That's why I said you 'feigned' surprise, not that you were actually surprised. I didn't actually think you were surprised, I thought trying to handwave legitimate analysis as hivemind histrionics was ridiculous. You're kneecapping yourself by even referring to the idea, is what I'm saying. It's a fairly obvious element, so complaining that people are going to reference it, and have referenced it, is dumb. Of course they have. Of course you saw it. It's fucking there. Making a bad joke about how unsurprised you are doesn't do any of the things you actually want it to do. Nobody should be surprised by seeing it, anymore than you'd be surprised to turn on headlights and see a road in front of you, much less whatever animal is about to dart onto it.
If you're not part of that they, it's going to become apparent pretty quickly, because the absence of sexism/misogyny will be all that much more clear in direct comparison to the stupid, thoughtless, grunting male power fantasy rooting that rears its head and howls about it inarticulately.
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