You are objectively getting more visual information with 60 fps and halving input lag so yes, higher standards.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
ICE Team Programmer on 60 fps : I like 30 fps more with all the bells & whistles
- Thread starter Conduit
- Start date
You are objectively getting more visual information with 60 fps and halving input lag so yes, higher standards.
DarthWalden
Banned
If I had to choose between 30fps + bells and whistles to 60fps it would all depend on the style of game. Anything twitch based, especially multiplayer should be 60fps. fps, fighting games, platformer, racing games should all aim for 60fps.however a lot of other games can get away with 30fps. I'm playing through last of us right now and I don't really think the game benefits that much from being 60fps and for uncharted I hope they shoot for 30fps + graphics.
Games like AC, Mordar, DA, so, can absolutely get away (and should be) 30fps.
Games like AC, Mordar, DA, so, can absolutely get away (and should be) 30fps.
I appreciate 60fps gaming, but I only really feel bothered by 30fps if I switch to it from 60fps at the press of a button (inFamous: SS, TLOU:R). As long as slowdowns are kept to a minimum and the controls are good, I'm perfectly fine with playing a game at 30fps if it gives the developers more room realize their vision for the game.
There are exceptions to this of course (fighting games, character action games).
There are exceptions to this of course (fighting games, character action games).
Playing Dark Souls at 60fps is almost like playing a different game. Especially a game like Dark Souls benefits from 60fps, because response time and input lag matters. The game becomes a lot more fair.
threelights
Member
A solid 30 is great, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
This 60FPS talk is becoming so boring to see over and over again. It's almost getting to the "oh no! this is 1079p, not 1080! Unacceptable!!" levels of boring talk.
This 60FPS talk is becoming so boring to see over and over again. It's almost getting to the "oh no! this is 1079p, not 1080! Unacceptable!!" levels of boring talk.
GameSeeker
Member
He explained his reasoning very well. And I agree with him. There are a few gaming genres where 60fps is ideal, but for the vast majority of games a locked 30fps is fine.
But you cannot tell if a game could have betterrible effects when they never existed.
You can always tell if the framerate is lower.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
If you choose to target 30fps for your game, fine.
But target 30fps for real, not a gagging, wheezing, choking product that fluxes between 20 and 40fps, freezes every time something big happens, and has horrible frame latency causing microstutter and jerky camera movement.
It's really sad when you see 30fps console games, titles developed on closed boxes where the hardware and software are predictable, that run like crap. Or have constant irritations like microstutter.
But target 30fps for real, not a gagging, wheezing, choking product that fluxes between 20 and 40fps, freezes every time something big happens, and has horrible frame latency causing microstutter and jerky camera movement.
It's really sad when you see 30fps console games, titles developed on closed boxes where the hardware and software are predictable, that run like crap. Or have constant irritations like microstutter.
kinoki
Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
Once upon my life I had an old PC that could run World of Warcraft at a decent framerate when I was in a dungeon, facing a wall and no spells were being cast. I enjoyed the game and played it for hours on end. I even played some of Crysis on it which was a feat in itself. Is a game better at a higher frame rate? Nah. Not really. Sure, I'd prefer it.
Driveclub would be better at 60fps, but would it be a new experience that most people could tell apart? If we did it at the current hardware level: would the difference be apparent and would the sacrifices be worth it? I'd argue with ICE-man on this.
One other thing that I haven't seen mentioned often in regards to framerate debates is that input method also has a lot to do with the perception of response time. I know when I play with a mouse, sub 60fps motion gives me a headache, but I've never had that happen when using a controller.
This.
CypherSignal
Member
It's not one singular feature, it's a lot of other things. Performance may be sacrificed for "more more more", e.g. more enemies, more physics, more animations, more variance in animations, more complex UI/HUDs etc.
In addition to that, it can also be a thing of, "we have X resources to work on creating interesting gameplay for the game..." (where X is, say, some measure of people multiplied by time) "...and it'll take (X * 40%) resources to optimize the gameplay to fit the tight performance target of 60fps. We hit 60fps, but now we have significantly less interesting gameplay!"
Trogdor1123
Member
I see his point 100%
30 FPS can simply have more stuff on screen than 60 FPS. Some people will prefer that. I think he was very clear.
30 FPS can simply have more stuff on screen than 60 FPS. Some people will prefer that. I think he was very clear.
Very well spoken. I make that trade off sometimes with games as well. Don't lock yourself into any one limit.
I have a 120hz monitor and gaming at 120fps is great. But so is 60 with max settings/downsampling. But so is 30 with max settings and downsampling with near perfect IQ.
I have a 120hz monitor and gaming at 120fps is great. But so is 60 with max settings/downsampling. But so is 30 with max settings and downsampling with near perfect IQ.
Strictly speaking, there's nothing directly preventing you from having the game physics (or at least the input polling) run at 60 while the graphical updates run at 30. I'm not sure there's anything that actually does do that, but it's absolutely possible.
You'd get the fidelity of input from 60fps that way, while still having only 30fps in terms of framebuffer updates.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
Wait a sec. Noone talks about choppy framerate. That's the point of games being optimized for a certain hardware.
Exactly. You, maybe I as well. Are we a market that can in fact support the production of fancy games ? No.
Stone Ocean
Member
It doesn't really depend, though. Games are made to work with 30 fps because they're stuck witht hat, any game is better in 60fps as long as it's designed for it.
Only reason 30fps is even a thing to begin with is because of hardware limitations.
Opinions woo!
Considering this is someone developing a mod focused primarily on fidelity and looks, this certainly seem reasonable. My preference is to play games at at least 60fps, mostly because they are mechanically better at that rate (at least for the games I like) as well as playing wonderfully while allowing for excellent fidelity simultaneously. I'd rather lose fidelity but maintain IQ at all costs with a weaker system but would plod through lower framerates down to 30fps if my hardware is only capable of such.
Considering this is someone developing a mod focused primarily on fidelity and looks, this certainly seem reasonable. My preference is to play games at at least 60fps, mostly because they are mechanically better at that rate (at least for the games I like) as well as playing wonderfully while allowing for excellent fidelity simultaneously. I'd rather lose fidelity but maintain IQ at all costs with a weaker system but would plod through lower framerates down to 30fps if my hardware is only capable of such.
OoT was considered by many the GOAT and it was sub-30 fps all the time. It even got to sub 20 on pal version.
Framerate is important, but this new thrend of bashing games as unplayable has to stop.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
it's worth it for every developer to investigate what works best for them.
I will always prefer 60fps but that doesn't necessarily mean that a 30fps game is inherently bad.
I'll say it now, I won't be devastated if they drop the 60fps target for Uncharted 4. Game looks amazing and looks like it plays amazing, and that's what matters in the end.
I will always prefer 60fps but that doesn't necessarily mean that a 30fps game is inherently bad.
I'll say it now, I won't be devastated if they drop the 60fps target for Uncharted 4. Game looks amazing and looks like it plays amazing, and that's what matters in the end.
Neue Regel
Banned
AcceptableGhost
Member
games should run at whatever your displays refresh rate is
Having higher standards means being cult-like?
No, insisting that your view is the One True View, that anybody who has a different opinion is somehow blinded by ignorance (or just plain blind), and that (increasingly frequently) games that aren't 60fps are somehow broken or substandard.
I'm quite happy to play a 30fps game. Does that mean that the same game at 60fps wouldn't be better? Not at all, and very few people are making that argument. Only that given the fixed limitations of console hardware, 30fps is a fine compromise between fluidity and fidelity.
And, of course, there are some genres (fighting games, for instance) where 60fps is enormously beneficial, and 30fps notably worse.
BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!
Member
I fully agree with him.
Neuromancer
Member
I respect his opinion, but in the games where I can toggle between locked 30 and ~60 (like Killzone SF, TLOU and Infamous SS) there's a huge difference in smoothness. It looks really nice and I don't mind the occasional dips.
People get annoyed by different things. For me personally there is a huge difference between 30 and 60 fps. Even then I'd rather have a decent FOV than 60 fps, because a shitty FOV makes feel bad.
Stitch
Gold Member
Heh, that's what I did. Still have a Wii U though but most game there are 60 FPS too 😊
Stone Ocean
Member
Stuff like AI can be pretty performance heavy depending of the game
Destruction, physics, large interconnected areas, stuff like that. Each one could have dramatic impact on gameplay but would also eat into framerate.
I'll also agree that the smoothness, added sense of depth, and increase image clarity is why I like 60fps. I'm not all that sensitive to input lag when using a controller.
Beautifully describes how I feel about this issue.
Physics, amount of enemies that can be on-screen at any given point, zone loading times, stuff like that.
I don't really see the point of this thread.
Some people think 60 FPS is worth the tradeoffs even on consoles. Some don't. Some like to play at 120!
Personally, for me its genre dependent. 30 FPS is fine for strategic RPG and TBS games, I want more than that for any action game.
Some people think 60 FPS is worth the tradeoffs even on consoles. Some don't. Some like to play at 120!
Personally, for me its genre dependent. 30 FPS is fine for strategic RPG and TBS games, I want more than that for any action game.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Having higher standards means being cult-like?
60 being a bigger number than 30 does not automatically make it a higher standard. That same basic argument can work both ways, because as the programmer said, there are non-graphics related gameplay sacrifices that can happen as a result of aiming for 60fps also.
GameSeeker
Member
And don't forget enemy and friendly NPC AI. Good AI makes a huge difference in the quality of a game, arguably more than framerate.
Mechanized
Member
As long as PC isn't locked to 30 I don't care.
Nestunt
Member
Its all about resources constraints
You have a limited amount of objects and tools to build and decorate a house. With the current state of technology, if you want to continuously build a bigger house every year you cant have a huge house full of beautiful furniture. You have to decide, smaller house with more and more beautiful furniture or a bigger one with less. In the end it comes down to a design decision and the type of use the infrastructure will have. Like there are buildings for living and others for working, there are games that need the bells and whistles and others that should have less and 60 fps
You have a limited amount of objects and tools to build and decorate a house. With the current state of technology, if you want to continuously build a bigger house every year you cant have a huge house full of beautiful furniture. You have to decide, smaller house with more and more beautiful furniture or a bigger one with less. In the end it comes down to a design decision and the type of use the infrastructure will have. Like there are buildings for living and others for working, there are games that need the bells and whistles and others that should have less and 60 fps