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IGN Sonic Unleashed Blog: Hedgehog Engine

Dear SEGA,

The classic Sonic gameplay was about precision platform jumping and enemy attacking with short bursts of speed sprinkled about. Just play any classic Sonic game and time how often you are moving slowly and jumping versus moving fast. It's obvious.

Sonic was advertised as being about speed, but his games played like a typical platformer. Stop lying us and yourselves.

Yours truly,
A Sonic Fan
 
ShadiWulf said:
just a heads up, theres a new Wii trailer for Shamar on the SEGA FTP

ftp://segapr.segaamerica.com/SEGA_G... Unleashed Shamar Wii Trailer - October 24th/

takes ages for downloading and your gonna kill your PC if its old while trying to run this video.
Click to expand...
I'm not downloading that. But I'm assuming its this video?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Uyna8f2sI

If so we've already had a thread on it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=339171

Perhaps we should create a memorandum against new Unleashed threads. A new one is made for every trailer every few days (or hours) :lol
 
Bizzyb said:
He doesn't "Always" have to speed through a course. In every Sonic game there are plenty of times when you can just stop and look around and look for different paths to take. I don't know what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
You missed my point. Just because you can stop and look around doesn't mean newer Sonic games aren't always about racing through a course. Like I said about the older games, they were about slowly progressing to faster speeds and momentum (kudos Gagaman). But in the newer Sonic games this pacing is missing. Rarely does the game have you slow down to time a tricky jump let alone progress slowly. Instead its all about rushing through a level as fast as you can. Now its hard to tell what caused what (chicken and the egg) but the faster pace in the games makes the level design also simpler. Gone is labrynth paces, gone is the tight platforming, gone is the progression has you played a level more.

Basically Sonic's gone from a optional speed and momentum to RUN RUN RUN RUN.
 
ShadiWulf said:
someone got it up on youtube... beware

its no where near as amazing as the 360 trailer that was released this morning...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY9VGaL5Lio
Click to expand...

Whoever redubbed that trailer kept using the ring loss sound every time Sonic picked up rings, except for when he grabs the big numbered rings. That happened in the 360 beach-like trailer that came out today too, and it's annoying to constantly hear that.

Fake Edit: Gagaman beat me to it.
 
Wait, so in 2005 he was asking himself 'Is this the Sonic that the fans really want?', and he then gets asked to produce the next one.

So why in the fuck did Sega even bother with Sonic 2006? They knew it was going to be shit a year before it even came out.

facepalm.jpg
 
cjelly said:
Wait, so in 2005 he was asking himself 'Is this the Sonic that the fans really want?', and he then gets asked to produce the next one.

So why in the fuck did Sega even bother with Sonic 2006? They knew it was going to be shit a year before it even came out.
Click to expand...

I remember a saying - I heard it in a podcast, I think it was during TGS '07. The quote that always stuck in my mind was something like

"Japanese business is more like... 'What can you do for me in the next three years?' whereas American business is more like 'What can you do for me tomorrow?'"

Maybe that's applicable here?
 
Well gameplay wise, the PS3/360 versions look alot more platformy. Wii version just seems like a super trick race.

Gagaman said:
The irony is that fix shows a game that was very similar to what Sonic games are like now: pushing forward, doing the odd jump and trick, and never stopping.

I can't remember who it was that said it, but someone compared the original sonic games to a marble rolling around. Those Sonic games were mainly about momentum, building up speed using the scenery around you so you can find the shortest route or overcome a dead end. For example: you jump and fall into a deep pit with slopes in the Casino night zone. What do you do? You run up and down the slopes until your momentum makes you fast enough to reach back up to the top of the pit you fell in.

I think the main problem isn't so much the fact that Sonic is fast, but that he never seems to roll anymore on scenery like hills to build that speed. Now you have speed boost pads everywhere and enemies can be pushed aside by just running into them with a boost. Sonic 1 and CD relied a lot more on platforming, but in Sonic 2 and 3K you could blitz your way through a level with the right timing and momentum. If you slowed down you'd end up on another route with more platforming.

I think they have the right ideas at heart about giving you different routes based on your speed, but their execution of it still looks to be a little too automated. There's barely any physics involved, just the need to push the right buttons at the right time. I'm still glad they're at least pushing for 2D gameplay in places of Sonic Rush caliber, though. Really need a demo of this near the release.
Click to expand...

Well alot of the 2.5 D sections of Unleashed seem to require momentum to reach certain areas. Like in that one youtube video (not familiar with all the stage names yet) the guy had to take the lower patch because he didnt have enough speed to hit the ramp and jump into that trick ring.

He didnt die, was just forced to take a different path. In Chun-nan and the first stage, there seem to be alot of slow down and time your jump moments as well. And just looking at Shamar and Abadat, you can kinda see that you wont be able to just blitz through the entire stage.

Really it isnt wise to just run full speed through the first stage either. While you dont loose rings by just touching an enemy, it gives them a chance to hit you. Also there were plenty of spikes .
 
At least they are showing gameplay. Ever since the series went 3D, there's been a general rule that the more FMV and cinematic camera angles they show off before release, the worse the resulting game is.

Adabat looks gorgeous, at least, though I see likely bottomless pits a-plenty. Not really digging the music for once, reminds me too much of Sonic Riders.

Whoever did the sound effects needs to actually play a Sonic game.
 
Sciz said:
At least they are showing gameplay. Ever since the series went 3D, there's been a general rule that the more FMV and cinematic camera angles they show off before release, the worse the resulting game is.

Adabat looks gorgeous, at least, though I see likely bottomless pits a-plenty. Not really digging the music for once, reminds me too much of Sonic Riders.

Whoever did the sound effects needs to actually play a Sonic game.
Click to expand...

lol yeah, going back and looking at the other videos, they probably would've done better to leave the default sound in, or just have the music playing over.

As far as the bottomless pits, It doesnt seem like you can fall off the bridge, so thats a good thing. Alot of the stage looks walled in and protected, aside from the parts where you have to spring or enemy chain over.
 
Teknoman said:
Well alot of the 2.5 D sections of Unleashed seem to require momentum to reach certain areas. Like in that one youtube video (not familiar with all the stage names yet) the guy had to take the lower patch because he didnt have enough speed to hit the ramp and jump into that trick ring.

He didnt die, was just forced to take a different path. In Chun-nan and the first stage, there seem to be alot of slow down and time your jump moments as well. And just looking at Shamar and Abadat, you can kinda see that you wont be able to just blitz through the entire stage.

Really it isnt wise to just run full speed through the first stage either. While you dont loose rings by just touching an enemy, it gives them a chance to hit you. Also there were plenty of spikes .
Click to expand...
I have yet to see anything from Unleashed even remotely like the level design or momentum idea from the older games. Nor have I seen anything suggesting Shamar and Abadat won't be the same as the other 3d sonic's either.

With Hashimoto going on about how Sonic is all about speed and how he thinks Unleashed will be better than the Genesis games I'm wondering if we've reached the "hopes have hit the ground" point of the Sonic Cycle :P
 
grandjedi6 said:
I have yet to see anything from Unleashed even remotely like the level design or momentum idea from the older games. Nor have I seen anything suggesting Shamar and Abadat won't be the same as the other 3d sonic's either.

With Hashimoto going on about how Sonic is all about speed and how he thinks Unleashed will be better than the Genesis games I'm wondering if we've reached the "hopes have hit the ground" point of the Sonic Cycle :P
Click to expand...


Well yeah, its not the entire stage, but there was that...one ramp. You know what im talking about. As for Sharmar, what about those two screenshots I posted? Thats sorta close. Either way its closer than any of the past 3d Sonic games. One thing im happy about is the fact that quick step sections dont tell you to use the shoulder buttons all the time.

...at least my hopes havent hit the ground. Then again, I actually liked Secret Rings, Advance 1, and the Rush series (Sonic Rush 1 more than Adventure, but still).
 
The cycle doesn't apply here (or has it ever, except in the case of '06). There's been a general sense of caution since the beginning thanks to the initial werehog picture, there haven't been any really devastating reveals or bad hands-on reports, and it seems technically competent enough to avoid a critical skewering.


Teknoman said:
One thing im happy about is the fact that quick step sections dont tell you to use the shoulder buttons all the time.
Click to expand...
Come to think of it, I haven't seen any of the buttons in recent footage, aside from the QTEs. Could be that I'm just forgetful.
 
Sciz said:
Come to think of it, I haven't seen any of the buttons in recent footage, aside from the QTEs. Could be that I'm just forgetful.
Click to expand...

You rarely see a HUD, either. Could be they just have those displays turned off.
 
Death_Born said:
Wait for it.....wait for it....

The annoying friends, I mean. You know they are there.
Click to expand...
They'll be there, I'm sure, but as long as the vast majority of the gameplay is Sonic or werehog (and it is) and you aren't forced into playing them mid-stage, I couldn't care less. Including characters isn't the problem, it's the aimless playable inclusion of them simply because they exist. Sonic is the only character that's essential, and everyone else can go take a hike when it doesn't make any logical sense for them to be around.


Sega1991 said:
You rarely see a HUD, either. Could be they just have those displays turned off.
Click to expand...
Also plausible. You can still see the lock-on marker, but that could be handled separately.
 
Sciz said:
The cycle doesn't apply here (or has it ever, except in the case of '06).
Click to expand...

Sonic 06 is just the most direct case since the current image we love to post is based off of it. But the fundamental idea behind it has been occuring since Sonic Adventure released.
 
*Puts on helmet*

Well I for one enjoyed Tails and Knuckles stages in Sonic Adventure 1. Of course they were still similar to Sonic so that goes without saying. Still, its the best way to implement secondary characters. Just go old school and make separate paths reachable by Knuckles and Tails. Maybe...maybe Shadow (Its not that I dont like him as a character or even his design. They just convoluted everything about em to the point where it makes you NOT want to care). And leave their speed to be relative to Sonic's speed. One thing Adventure 1 got right in comparison to classic Sonic games is that Tails and Knuckles moved at a decent rate of speed.

Dont over complicate things by throwing in TOO many characters. Maybe unlocking extras after beating the entire game would work. That way it doesnt force the player to switch mid game.


EDIT: Yeah...I know story related, but you dont play as them.
 
grandjedi6 said:
You missed my point. Just because you can stop and look around doesn't mean newer Sonic games aren't always about racing through a course. Like I said about the older games, they were about slowly progressing to faster speeds and momentum (kudos Gagaman). But in the newer Sonic games this pacing is missing. Rarely does the game have you slow down to time a tricky jump let alone progress slowly. Instead its all about rushing through a level as fast as you can. Now its hard to tell what caused what (chicken and the egg) but the faster pace in the games makes the level design also simpler. Gone is labrynth paces, gone is the tight platforming, gone is the progression has you played a level more.

Basically Sonic's gone from a optional speed and momentum to RUN RUN RUN RUN.
Click to expand...

Well, maybe I can understand what you are saying in that regard, but I just look at it as the evolution of the franchise. It really doesn't bother me much at all b/c as I said there are still elements of platforming and enemies to watch out for. Besides, I love it in a Sonic game when you go fast and have to think fast enough to get through the course.

The thing is though, you CAN still play the game at somewhat steady pace and just because they want you to race through as fast as you can doesn't mean you absolutely have to. It is just encouraged to embrace to speed aspects.

As I said, it's just the evolution of the franchise. I was fortunately able to adjust and adapt.

edit:

Why can't they just keep Sonic's "friends" simple?? You know, keep the ones that DON'T suck, instead giving more depth and stop introducing new ones


Knuckles
Tails
Shadow
Blaze
and maybe Amy/Rouge...maybe
and that's it.

Really, we don't need fucking Cream, or Bigs the cat, that gawd awful one in Adventure or Chip or that Australian one from Rush Adventure. Keep those losers far far away!
 
Guybrush Threepwood said:
You want to keep his friends simple?

Tails
Knuckles

That's it. All of his other friends are fucking stupid and/or dead.
Click to expand...

Well Shadow is like his Nemesis. He's Mario's Wario and it's always cool to have a counter part.
and Blaze was a really nice addition in the Rush games. I suppose since you think she sucks you've never played those games.
 
Blaze is the only good character added to the roster since Knuckles. Well, okay, Shadow and Amy were decent at first I guess, but they suck now.
 
The only Sonic characters that should survive a series purge should be Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Metal Sonic & Dr. Robotnik/Eggman. With the things they've done to these characters however (see below), it'd be hard to even market them as the Sonic dream team again.


(Sonic's stereotypical branding of cool compared to the natural aura of cool he had pre-Adventure, Tails' flip flopping age and sense of self, Knuckles being reduced from witty rival in Sonic 3 to dumb bruiser type, Amy's SONIKKU KAWAII DESU cliche female character type, Metal Sonic's abortion of a finale in Sonic Heroes, & Robotnik getting one-upped by every fucking thing that crawls out of a five year old's bad fan fiction.)
 
If Robotnik doesn't end up being the final final bad guy in this game I'm going to be pissed. But of course I already know that he's not going to be it and instead some kind of space alien black goo mythological evil monster will be it instead. Just like I know that despite the Sonic only videos so far all his stupid friends will clog up the final game.
 
grandjedi6 said:
If Robotnik doesn't end up being the final final bad guy in this game I'm going to be pissed. But of course I already know that he's not going to be it and instead some kind of space alien black goo mythological evil monster will be it instead. Just like I know that despite the Sonic only videos so far all his stupid friends will clog up the final game.
Click to expand...

You might as well get pissed now then. I remember reading something about a "Dark Gaia" character being in the game. Now that doesnt mean its the last boss....but its pretty likely. Maybe not though...might just be the Super Sonic form true last boss battle or something.

As for the picture with the friends, im still sure they have no bearing on gameplay.

Also I still want Fang/Nack back. Amy has Knuckles beat by some years.... I'd take Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Mecha Sonic (thats the one from Sonic 3 right?), Shadow, Amy, Vector (Chaotix version...would've been a cool character if they didnt totally screw up the way he should've sounded and then made him all muscular / wide) and Nack/Fang.
 
grandjedi6 said:
If Robotnik doesn't end up being the final final bad guy in this game I'm going to be pissed. But of course I already know that he's not going to be it and instead some kind of space alien black goo mythological evil monster will be it instead.
Click to expand...
2d7ilom.png

Remember, that is one of the first images that ever appeared when Unleashed was leaked. it could be what you are talking about, I doubt it isn't.
 
Teknoman said:
You might as well get pissed now then. I remember reading something about a "Dark Gaia" character being in the game. Now that doesnt mean its the last boss....but its pretty likely. Maybe not though...might just be the Super Sonic form true last boss battle or something.
Click to expand...
I just looked it up:

GS AU: What's the plot? We hear Dr. Eggman/Robotnik has sliced up the world somehow?

YH: Eggman has used the vast force of the chaos emeralds and shot out a chaos energy cannon right into the planet, thus waking up the gigantic ancient monster, Dark Gaia, from its eternal sleep. When Dark Gaia wakes up, the world is subsequently torn apart into seven pieces. Sonic, who was at the site when the chaos emerald energy was vacuumed up, experiences changes in his body. His hair grows, his fangs and claws come out, and he’s turned into a monster--the Werehog.
Click to expand...
http://uk.gamespot.com/xbox360/acti...&om_clk=newsfeatures&tag=newsfeatures;title;1

f0oqc0.gif


As for the picture with the friends, im still sure they have no bearing on gameplay.

Also I still want Fang/Nack back.
Click to expand...
If I see Charmy Bee one more time.....

Also Amy has Knuckles beat by some years.
Click to expand...
If by some years you mean 3 months then I guess you are technically right.
 
You know the problem with the shitty friends isn't so much that they exist. I mean, every game with a new story is probably going to establish some new characters to go along with it. Like how Twilight Princess had Midna, or Super Mario Galaxy had Rosalina.

The problem is that Sonic Team tries to cram EVERY CHARACTER into EVERY GAME. NO, it doesn't work. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Robotnik will always be the mainstays. Amy and Shadow (provided he doesn't intrude too much on the storyline, something Shadow the Hedgehog was supposed to prevent anyway) are fine/tolerable as well. But just about every character the games could do without. Like, who the fuck decided that Cream the Rabbit was so important after Sonic Advance 2 that she needed to appear in like ten other games? And the Babylon Rogues? At least they're only in the Sonic Riders series. For now. Save these guys for the party/racing games and leave them out of the continuity.

It's like the complete opposite of Nintendo where you have the fans clamoring for so and so to come back. In Sonic games, EVERYONE will come back in some fashion.

(Except for Fang the Sniper. Seriously where the fuck is that guy.)

If by some years you mean 3 months then I guess you are technically right.
Click to expand...
Well if you want to get into specifics it's more like six months.
 
I don't want to see Fang the Sniper. They'd just make him another shitty friend you know

Teknoman said:
Also I still want Fang/Nack back. Amy has Knuckles beat by some years.... I'd take Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Mecha Sonic (thats the one from Sonic 3 right?), Shadow, Amy, Vector (Chaotix version...would've been a cool character if they didnt totally screw up the way he should've sounded and then made him all muscular / wide) and Nack/Fang.
Click to expand...

Err Mecha Sonic was in Sonic 2. And I honestly wouldn't want half of them. Just keep Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy (can't really get rid of her can we?). I would include Metal Sonic too but Heroes managed to ruin that forever.
 
grandjedi6 said:
I don't want to see Fang the Sniper. They'd just make him another shitty friend you know
Click to expand...
This, seriously. Unless one of you has an amazing idea for a plot involving Fang, just let decent but retired characters lie in peace. Gamma is the standard to which all one-shot characters should aspire; even his stupid fanservice-y revival was handled decently.


grandjedi6 said:
I would include Metal Sonic too but Heroes managed to ruin that forever.
Click to expand...
I'd rather like to see Metal Sonic become a villain in his own right, though without completely squandering the change in the process like Heroes did. The shapeshifting concept was neat, and he's clearly got his own personality and motives independent of Robotnik; might as well just let him be a distinct force to be reckoned with on occasion.
 
grandjedi6 said:
I don't want to see Fang the Sniper. They'd just make him another shitty friend you know



Err Mecha Sonic was in Sonic 2. And I honestly wouldn't want half of them. Just keep Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy (can't really get rid of her can we?). I would include Metal Sonic too but Heroes managed to ruin that forever.
Click to expand...

Well if Mecha was Sonic 2, and Metal was the Sega CD model...then what was the one from Sonic 3?
 
Teknoman said:
Well if Mecha was Sonic 2, and Metal was the Sega CD model...then what was the one from Sonic 3?
Click to expand...

Basically, the more or less "rule" about Sonic's Metallic likenesses is that they are put into two groups:

CD (and subsequent appearances):
Metal Sonic

Everything else [this would include the other type that was in Sonic 2 GG/MS]:
Mecha Sonic (and that's if the robot even had an "official" name)
 
Teknoman said:
Well if Mecha was Sonic 2, and Metal was the Sega CD model...then what was the one from Sonic 3?
Click to expand...
Unnamed. IIRC only Metal Sonic and S2GG's robot (Silver Sonic) have ever officially been named, at least stateside.
 
Sciz said:
I'd rather like to see Metal Sonic become a villain in his own right, though without completely squandering the change in the process like Heroes did. The shapeshifting concept was neat, and he's clearly got his own personality and motives independent of Robotnik; might as well just let him be a distinct force to be reckoned with on occasion.
Click to expand...

The worst part of Heroes is that Metal Sonic didn't even play/fight like a metal sonic boss. He just turned into that moster thing and then you had that horribly lame fight. Even Shadow was a better Metal Sonic in Adventure 2.

But before Metal Sonic gets another go Eggman has to ACTUALLY BE THE VILLIAN AGAIN

TreIII said:
Everything else [this would include the other type that was in Sonic 2 GG/MS]:
Mecha Sonic (and that's if the robot even had an "official" name)
Click to expand...
Sciz said:
Unnamed. IIRC only Metal Sonic and S2GG's robot (Silver Sonic) have ever officially been named, at least stateside.
Click to expand...

Japan's manual for Sonic 2 calls him Mecha Sonic. The Sonic 3 robot is unlisted and thus unnamed iirc.
 
grandjedi6 said:
The worst part of Heroes is that Metal Sonic didn't even play/fight like a metal sonic boss. He just turned into that moster thing and then you had that horribly lame fight. Even Shadow was a better Metal Sonic in Adventure 2.

But before Metal Sonic gets another go Eggman has to ACTUALLY BE THE VILLIAN AGAIN
Click to expand...
Agreed, on both counts. I did like how Rush Adventure had you spend the entire game chasing Whisker around only to have the Eggman duo be the surprise final boss (as surprising as any twist in the series is, anyway), but we're clearly not counting handheld titles in any discussion of the series.


grandjedi6 said:
Japan's manual for Sonic 2 calls him Mecha Sonic. The Sonic 3 robot is unlisted and thus unnamed iirc.
Click to expand...
Hence why I just stick with the common usage of Silver, Metal, and Mecha as the least confusing way to designate the three.
 
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