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[ZealousD]

He said he collected them and had no intention of selling them, which makes this irrelevant

Not really. Everybody's collection gets sold eventually. I obviously can't see into the future, but I'd predict that sealed games will still be seen as more valuable than opened games in whatever time those games are sold, whether it's in 10, 20, 50, or a 100 years.

I can't come up with a good argument WHY opening the game, ripping the disc, and playing would be different than leaving the game closed, downloading the game, and playing, but something about it intuitively feels like you're scamming the system.

It's scamming the system because he's using piracy as a way to retain the value of a product that should essentially have no value in the secondhand market. These are PC games. He hasn't used the CD keys and he hasn't agreed to the license agreements. Since he hasn't agreed to the license agreement yet, it's like he doesn't own the game at all. He just owns the physical disc.

 

[BigBadShamoo]

Well, by downloading a No/CD crack you are physically altering the game against the Devs wishes so you can share it with a friend.

Now, if you were to buy a game. Play the shit out of it, then lend it to a friend. There's no foul in that.

In which case you made a pirate copy for yourself, effectively.

I see the point now. I only really only did it to one game UT2004 back when I actually played PC games seriously lol. Loved the game so much I wanted all my friends to play it with me during lan parties. I was obviously a kid back then but I think I justified the practice of doing this since the publisher patched the game to require no-cd. I mean It's not like we could play online at the same time, but it allowed us to play together in LAN play. I guess thats why I never second guessed it.

 

[xelios]

He hasn't used the CD keys and he hasn't agreed to the license agreements. Since he hasn't agreed to the license agreement yet, it's like he doesn't own the game at all. He just owns the physical disc.

There are no CD keys for these games. Newer games that use CD keys are usually on Steam, so I double dip there if I am keeping a collector's edition or something sealed. But thanks to this thread I found a place where I can buy these older games digitally so it's not much of an issue for me anymore.

 

[kpeezy]

Disclaimer: I know OP said he won't be selling the games.

I think what is really happening is that the OP is buying a collector's item rather than a game.

I'm thinking about it in terms of collectable items that actually contain goods (collectible tins, etc). When you look at it from that angle, it is pretty clear to me that the OP shouldn't download the games via torrent.

 

[iam220]

When confronted with such a question, my thought process is as fallows:

"is it wrong?" . In this case, no. You already paid for your copy.
"is it legal?". No. The laws side with the copyright and the corporations that hold them. Want to keep your game shrinkwarpped? too bad. Disk broke/lost? too bad.

The final quesiton I ask myself is:

"will i get caught?". No

So if I were you OP, I'd already have downloaded that game.

 

[jorma]

Is this morally wrong aswell? I buy and install a game, dowload a no-cd patch given by the publisher. Then give the copy to someone else.


I mean am I really the only one who's given friends a game?

Actually, in Swedish law this is legal.

Well it might have become illegal lately, it's a very grey area all over the world.

But yeah i'm pretty sure that buying the game, making a copy, giving away the original - legal in .se. Afaik this is the very reason we pay a tax on every blank cd/dvd, money that gets split between the copyright lobbyist organisations.

 

[plagiarize]

When confronted with such a question, my thought process is as fallows:

"is it wrong?" . In this case, no. You already paid for your copy.
"is it legal?". No. The laws side with the copyright and the corporations that hold them. Want to keep your game shrinkwarpped? too bad. Disk broke/lost? too bad.

right. it's not legal, but i don't think anyone would say it was morally wrong.

some might make an argument that if you are seeding the game you are sending it to people that are stealing it, and that if you are downloading it that you are creating a demand for people to make it available for download, but sort of how i feel about custom firmware and console hacking, yeah, it does lead to more piracy, but only the piracy should be wrong (the stealing).

if there's valid uses for cracks etc (which there are) then providing them for download shouldn't be seen as morally wrong either.

i think most people here have downloaded ROMs to play a game in emulator that they actually own the real cartridge for. legally you're supposed to dump the ROM yourself... but downloading it is much easier, so most people will just do that.

that's the same exact thing, and given how many people here are fans of emulation, i'm pretty sure most everyone has done this morally okay, and at best legally grey act.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Illegal, which kind of sucks.

My stepbrother is a pirate, because he has like 10 or so sealed Saturn (and PSX?) games and uses them on an emulator with a downloaded iso.

He'd probably need to auction those off to pay his court fees if hes ever caught.

 

[Weenerz]

How will you play the downloaded game(legitimately) if you don't retrieve the cdkey from the sealed copy?

 

[Emitan]

How will you play the downloaded game(legitimately) if you don't retrieve the cdkey from the sealed copy?

These games didn't have CD keys.

 

[Fugu]

In what country is this illegal? Where has a precedent been established that directly states that indirect format shifting to create one's backup copy is unlawful? It has been established only that it is illegal to provide these files, but that's hardly relevant to the legality of downloading them for the purposes of format shifting.

 

[Fatghost]

To the OP:

If you pay for the game through a legitimate channel, and you are not paying for piracy, I don't see how you're doing anything wrong.

 

[paranoidfortean]

of course it is wrong.

 

[commish]

In what country is this illegal? Where has a precedent been established that directly states that indirect format shifting to create one's backup copy is unlawful? It has been established only that it is illegal to provide these files, but that's hardly relevant to the legality of downloading them for the purposes of format shifting.

What's with gaf's obsession with "format shifting"? Perhaps some countries allow it, but as far as I know, it's not really a defense to copyright infringement in the U.S.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

What's with gaf's obsession with "format shifting"? Perhaps some countries allow it, but as far as I know, it's not really a defense to copyright infringement in the U.S.

Format shifting obviously refers to one's pragmatic desire to shift from an antiquated platform to one they use regularly. For instance, in the "ethics of using roms and emulators," regardless of the letter of the law, most people would feel comfortable downloading a SNES rom of something like Chrono Trigger if they own it, want to play it, but no longer feel like being bothered to hook up the SNES. In this case, we're talking about playing the same exact game they can prove they own, just not using the original medium and intended playback device. I would argue, however, that this right of "format shifting" does not extend to something like "I want to play Chrono Trigger on my plane ride, and own the SNES cartridge, so I'm going to download the DS version and put it on my flash cart."

 

[drkOne]

no it's like buying a ferarri to keep in your garage and then stealing another ferarri to drive because it's raining outside and you don't want to get your fararri dirty.

it's uncool

Except the fact that Ferraris production have a cost per unit built, where you'd be taking two while only paying for one, and downloading a game from a random peer actually doesn't cost the dev/pub a cent.
So even though your analogy couldn't be any more wrong, I was still pleased that someone brought a car comparison to this thread.

To the OP: It's illegal to download something that is copyright protected. But when you actually already paid for the exact same thing you shouldn't feel too bad about it.
I would be against things like buying a original game that came 10 years ago and feel entitled to pirate a remake that is coming out now, as resources were put into the new remake. But if you already paid for the exact same version... I don't see why you'd feel bad about it.

 

[webrunner]

As far as I can tell:

it's legal to play a copy of a game.

It's illegal to obtain a copy of a game from another person, you have to make it yourself

It's also illegal to break the copy protection to allow that game to play, even if it would be legal to play it.

Fun fact: if you own a copy of Final fantasy Chronicles, you already legally own an emulatable rom of chrono trigger you can boot up into zSNES. It just happens to be in japanese.

Just take the disc, put it in your computer, and grab the one ~4mb file. It'll load right up, it's pretty neat.

Translating to english, as well as playing the videos, was done using a specialized emulator that checked for game conditions.

 

[SonOfABeep]

Illegal, and wrong.

Piracy rates for games could be used by publishers to determine post release support, sequels, and even funding for their studios.

Even if you bought the title adding to those piracy numbers hurts the developer.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Piracy rates for games could be used by publishers to determine post release support, sequels, and even funding for their studios.

I'm not suggesting that you don't have a point, but I disagree. "Doing so would skew the integrity of the industry's analysis on the effects of piracy" should rank pretty low on the list of priorities when weighing the consequences of these actions, as the industry's analysis should already be mostly ignored anyway in my opinion.

 

[Shiggy]

Is it legal to have a toilet and shit on the stairs of my neighbours? Probably.

 

[Gravijah]

Except the fact that Ferraris production have a cost per unit built, where you'd be taking two while only paying for one, and downloading a game from a random peer actually doesn't cost the dev/pub a cent.
So even though your analogy couldn't be any more wrong, I was still pleased that someone brought a car comparison to this thread.

To the OP: It's illegal to download something that is copyright protected. But when you actually already paid for the exact same thing you shouldn't feel too bad about it.
I would be against things like buying a original game that came 10 years ago and feel entitled to pirate a remake that is coming out now, as resources were put into the new remake. But if you already paid for the exact same version... I don't see why you'd feel bad about it.

What is the source of your avatar?

 

[poppabk]

You've made a copy. What do you think?

I've given people stuff, but not while at the same time keeping it for myself.

But PC games can be installed on as many computers as you want. Are you saying installing the software on two computers is illegal? The number of copies argument falls down with PC software, because you generally have to install the entire program to HDD, but you never actually made a second copy of the disk - and with DD you are often allowed to have multiple copies ie steam. The illegality comes from the no-CD crack which allows you access to the software without a license. Its also possible with steam to have two versions of software playable at the same time I believe using the offline mode.

 

[iam220]

I
Piracy rates for games could be used by publishers to determine post release support, sequels, and even funding for their studios.

True but its really the publishers problem for focusing too much on a particular stat. Like piracy. There has to be a balance between what hurts the developer and what hurts you. Lending out your game hurts the developer, posting on message boards that the game sucks hurts the developer etc ... none of it is wrong.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

of course it is wrong.

No. But it's illegal.

 

[AshMcCool]

Not really. Everybody's collection gets sold eventually. I obviously can't see into the future, but I'd predict that sealed games will still be seen as more valuable than opened games in whatever time those games are sold, whether it's in 10, 20, 50, or a 100 years.



It's scamming the system because he's using piracy as a way to retain the value of a product that should essentially have no value in the secondhand market. These are PC games. He hasn't used the CD keys and he hasn't agreed to the license agreements. Since he hasn't agreed to the license agreement yet, it's like he doesn't own the game at all. He just owns the physical disc.

I don't know why its supposed to be wrong to ensure maximal value for a product he bought. It's completley irrelevant if he intends to sell it later ot not. Software license agreements anyway often don't hold up to law and are hardly enforceable.

 

[boiled goose]

piracy. u are playing an illegally downloaded copy and then keeping you legal copy intact which means you could resell it.

Maybe you say once I sell the physical copy, I will delete the download, but it is again kinda iffy. Your game would not 'depreciate' as much as a normal used copy would.

It is probably a current problem with downloadable services that their is no current way to transfer licenses to others. Since they are purely downloadable, there would be very little to no depreciation with a resale.

If you feel slightly weird about it, it is probably not right.

 

[plagiarize]

piracy. u are playing an illegally downloaded copy and then keeping you legal copy intact which means you could resell it.

Maybe you say once I sell the physical copy, I will delete the download, but it is again kinda iffy. Your game would not 'depreciate' as much as a normal used copy would.

It is probably a current problem with downloadable services that their is no current way to transfer licenses to others. Since they are purely downloadable, there would be very little to no depreciation with a resale.

If you feel slightly weird about it, it is probably not right.

he's installing a PC game. he could open his game and install it and then sell the physical copy to someone else without uninstalling it. whether he can sell on the physical copy or not isn't for me relevant.

 

[Emitan]

piracy. u are playing an illegally downloaded copy and then keeping you legal copy intact which means you could resell it.

Maybe you say once I sell the physical copy, I will delete the download, but it is again kinda iffy. Your game would not 'depreciate' as much as a normal used copy would.

It is probably a current problem with downloadable services that their is no current way to transfer licenses to others. Since they are purely downloadable, there would be very little to no depreciation with a resale.

If you feel slightly weird about it, it is probably not right.

So it's bad now because maybe at one point in the future he will do something wrong? Are you from the Minority Report.

 

[iam220]

hehe

I'm imagining publishers reading some of the responses in this tread and going:

Good, Good

 

[water_wendi]

An mp3 player can't play your CD's.

My NES cartridges cant fit into my computer.

 

[ElFly]

Keeping your games sealed is piracy, yes.

 

[YoungHav]

as long as you don't sell your PC games to anyone you're not committing piracy.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

I like this thread - Stump laid down what i've been afraid to say all this time.

 

[Koren]

I wouldn't use Nintendo's web site as a source of true, legal information, though, because of their possible bias.

Actually, they say that you can use a rom if you produce it yourself, which afaik is indeed true (or at least was true here in France). So I'd say that it's a pretty unbiased information this time.

By the way, even if you can (could ?) make ONE copy of a software you own, installing a software was sometimes considered as a copy, so as long as you have a game installed, you can't copy the CD.

 

[Zoe]

My NES cartridges cant fit into my computer.

Why don't you read more of the thread and see that that's already been said and addressed?

 

[Nose Master]

Of course it's illegal, but you shouldn't care. Especially if you're not actively uploading them to others.

 

[Mithos]

Maybe its time for the game publishers to follow suit on what the movie industry does.

Blu-Ray + DVD + Digital Copy packages is something that's growing on sites i shop my movies from, sometimes it's even IMPOSSIBLE to "just" get the Blu-Ray or Dvd or Digital Copy alone, you have to buy a/the package.

Like when EA releases Mass Effect 2 for the PS3 in a few days, how awesome if the PSN/DD copy was included also.

 

[Shurs]

My NES cartridges cant fit into my computer.

Was that NES cart licensed for play on anything other than the NES?

 

[water_wendi]

Was that NES cart licensed for play on anything other than the NES?

Well that is true. But how long would that extend? If i have a NES that dies and Nintendo cannot replace it 20+ years later does that still apply?

 

[Koren]

Was that NES cart licensed for play on anything other than the NES?

I don't know for US law, actually I'm not even sure for current french law, but there was some exceptions for "compatibility issues". You were allowed to transform a CD into mp3 to use it in a mp3 player, or even circumvent some protection for the same kind of "fair use". Emulation was a gray zone, but I think that as long as you rip the cart yourself (that's a pretty big condition, though), you could do probably do it.

With Virtual Console, now, it's probably even darker gray, though...

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Someone can correct me on this, but as I've always understood it, the legality essentially boils down to this:

1. Emulators are legal (provided you're not illegally downloading something like a BIOS file to run it).
2. Backups of games you own are legal.
3. Downloading a backup of a game you own off the internet is not legal.

So, generally, roms and emulation tend to not be exclusively on the level in regards to the letter of the law. In practice, though, you really don't have to fear litigation, and the consensus is that downloading roms you own is morally okay, especially when talking about old system cartridges, as the means to produce your own backup range from impossible to impractical.

The introduction of something like the Virtual Console really doesn't change that in my book. The reason why you would repurchase the game if you already own the cartridge is simply for the convenience of being able to play it on your new console that's always hooked up to your TV and that also has an adequate gaming input. That convenience remains even if you deem emulators and roms fair game.

 

[Zoe]

To me, personally, using a ROM is no longer ethical once it's reliably playable in a commercial form akin to the original.

I would be okay playing a ROM of Chrono Trigger until it's available on VC while the DS version

Spoiler

(or horrible PSX version, which I still own)

has no bearing on what I do. On the other hand, I was happy playing my (personally ripped) Japanese FFVIII on the PSP until it was released on the Japanese PSN--now I can play it on both the PS3 and PSP.

 

[LQX]

Surprised this even has to be asked.

Also I'm of that thinking once you go down this path of downloading games you supposedly own you soon enough will start downloading them for games you down own. Next thing you know you will be saying I'm just trying it before buying it and never delete it off your hard drive until you have tried it all the way to the end. Basically I'm saying don't get into the pattern of doing it because I bet it will be hard for you to then break that pattern.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Surprised this even has to be asked.

Also I'm of that thinking once you go down this path of downloading games you supposedly own you soon enough will start downloading them for games you down own. Next thing you know you will be saying I'm just trying it before buying it and never delete it off your hard drive until you have tried it all the way to the end. Basically I'm saying don't get into the pattern of doing it because I bet it will be hard for you to then break that pattern.

Ah, the slippery slope.

 

[poppabk]

Surprised this even has to be asked.

Also I'm of that thinking once you go down this path of downloading games you supposedly own you soon enough will start downloading them for games you down own. Next thing you know you will be saying I'm just trying it before buying it and never delete it off your hard drive until you have tried it all the way to the end.

Then you start in on the heroin.

 

[TemplaerDude]

What exactly are you "collecting" them for?

 

[Zoe]

What exactly are you "collecting" them for?

I can completely relate although I can't explain the reasoning behind it. I guess it's a form of hoarding where you want to keep everything as pristine as possible.

While I do open my things, I tend to keep the plastic on and try to remove tape in a way that it can be replaced. When I read books, I try to do so where it won't crease the spine.

 

[charlequin]

I view it as different because sealed CDs don't retain any real value over used CDs, so there's no value-related impact of format-shifting-by-proxy versus format-shifting-yourself.

Of course, the valuation difference for used games doesn't originate in any direct utility provided by the sealed product or anything really being "sold" by the creator; it's just more valuable because it safeguards physical product quality in the face of potential rarity/unavailability. While you're preserving extra "value" by doing this, you're only doing so by preventing wear-and-tear, by preventing the loss of value that would come with handling the product.

I would personally consider FSBP in this context legitimate in any and all contexts in which the user in question would already consider FSBP legitimate with an opened box copy.

As a slight tweak to the example, how does this change if I own a sealed copy of, say, Planescape: Torment, I buy it on GoG, and then my wife and I both install the GoG version and play it simultaneously?

What's with gaf's obsession with "format shifting"?

Format-shifting is an obviously legitimate use case for all media in a digital age which does not involve depriving creators of payment for their work, but which overzealous copyright holders nonetheless oppose because it can prevent them from effectively double-dipping on multiple-format releases of the same content.

Regardless of one's views on the ethics of piracy or a variety of on-the-bubble copyright/fair-use issues, basically everyone agrees that it's morally acceptable to rip your own legally-purchased CDs onto your iPod, so it's important that the law reflect that.

Has our position as consumers eroded so intensely that we now have to be worried that the copies of the games we're buying have, at one time, been used for piracy?

Yes.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Some of the analogies in this thread are painful.

It's not legal but in my opinion, it's not immoral to do so.

 

[Yasae]

Indeed, I wish this forum could actually discuss piracy in a mature manner. I imagine if the mods didn't ban people who admitted to it, we'd see a whole lot less absurdly judgmental posts.

You'd think we'd see less posts suggesting that piracy has absolutely no effect on anyone's bottom line - which it does, but there are still posts that say otherwise.

Well hey, while we're at it. I'm the Queen of England.