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[Tomasooie]

I don't feel that downloading a copy of something you own is piracy. For example, if I want to play SMB3 NES on my PC (I own a cartridge copy. Currently. It is in my house. There's no excuses like "I owned a copy 20 years ago and I can't find it but I'm still entitled."), I will download a ROM. I do this because I am legally entitled to format shifting and no one has ever made a compelling argument why format shifting by proxy is materially different to format shifting yourself.

Could you explain this? You're legally entitled to play a game you bought for one format on any other format? I just don't see how buying a cartridge for the NES in the 80s would give you a lifetime right to play the ROM on your PC, PS3, iPhone, etc.

I can't come up with a good argument WHY opening the game, ripping the disc, and playing would be different than leaving the game closed, downloading the game, and playing, but something about it intuitively feels like you're scamming the system.

He can't have his cake and eat it too. If he wants to keep his copy sealed, then he has to accept the consequences that stem from that, i.e., not being able to play the game unless he purchases another copy. Also, he can't be 100% sure that he would never, under any circumstances, sell it. If he somehow lost everything and needed money fast, his collection would probably be the first thing to go. It happens. People who wouldn't dream of selling their collections off are sometimes forced to in order to pay off student loans and things like that.

Maybe I fall under weird, but there are some games/series I truly love and just like to have a sealed copy of, and ALSO play the game. Ever heard of Collector's Editions then double dipping with Steam for the standard version?

How do you know for sure that you'll truly love a game if you've never opened it?

 

[Grampa Simpson]

It's a super gray area. I like to take copyright compass like it should work for a paperback book. If I own a copy of a paperback book, I can read it anywhere, whether it's on a bus, or a train, a plane, wrapped in a plastic bag while I'm scuba diving, lying in bed, or sitting on the couch. I can read it any of these places. So can my girlfriend. We're just not allowed to both read it at the same time, unless she's reading it to me or visa versa.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Could you explain this? You're legally entitled to play a game you bought for one format on any other format? I just don't see how buying a cartridge for the NES in the 80s would give you a lifetime right to play the ROM on your PC, PS3, iPhone, etc.

The idea is just that, morally (if not legally) speaking, owning the game should give me the right to play the game. If I possessed a device that allowed me to rip my SNES cartridge myself without having to resort to visiting a ROM site, what argument would you present to show that my choosing to play this rom on a legal emulator on my computer is wrong? With roms, the waters become slightly muddy because, technically, you're not supposed to download backups you didn't produce yourself. However, many would say that that's a legal concern, while not a moral concern. Do you think that Nintendo should have the right to sue you for playing a rom of Super Mario World on your computer via an SNES emulator if you can produce your cartridge of Super Mario World proving that you own it?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It's a super gray area. I like to take copyright compass like it should work for a paperback book. If I own a copy of a paperback book, I can read it anywhere, whether it's on a bus, or a train, a plane, wrapped in a plastic bag while I'm scuba diving, lying in bed, or sitting on the couch. I can read it any of these places. So can my girlfriend. We're just not allowed to both read it at the same time, unless she's reading it to me or visa versa.

So if you are both reading the book at the same time page by page, that's also ok, right? I'm not suggesting your point is anything else, but I just wanted clarification.

 

[surrogate]

So if the OP invented a "scanner" that could read and rip the game from inside the sealed package, would it then be legal & ethical?

 

[Grampa Simpson]

So if you are both reading the book at the same time page by page, that's also ok, right? I'm not suggesting your point is anything else, but I just wanted clarification.

It's pretty much that you can't have the actual book in two places at once. Unless you finished the first half, ripped it in half, handed the first half to her while you finished the second, but software isn't usually that flexible - with the exception of multi-disc games.

As long as you're not playing it in a way that you couldn't reasonably do so without the physical disc, I think it's fairly reasonable to do so. Here's a nice example - I have an extensive DVD collection. I would like to be able to watch the movies contained those DVDs without pulling them off the shelf. I could either buy a big DVD carousel, RIP the DVDs myself, or download copies of the movies. I think any of those are morally acceptable ways to accomplish this task. The caveat is that I shouldn't loan out my DVDs and then watch them at home while they're loaned out to a friend.

 

[Darkenmal]

There's been a lot of piracy talk on this forum as of late, so as opposed to stating an opinion and engaging in a back and forth, I'd instead like to interject by stating that I don't really understand what you're asking. You mention a game like Torment --an 11+ year old game -- for instance. So, you've had an unopened copy of it for some time. How have you played it up until now? Because pragmatically you can probably just keep doing whatever it is that you've been doing already. But if it's a philosophical debate you want, then prepare for an onslaught of car analogies.

LOL!

 

[Drkirby]

If you are in the US, no it is not, your backups legally have to be made from copies you own. But seeing as this topic has more then 200 replies, this most likely has been stated, now to read them all.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Completely illegal.

You are entitled to make your own backup copies yourself, not to download the copies of others.

Too bad it's been made illegal and/or technically difficult to do so. What then?

 

[Shurs]

It's pretty much that you can't have the actual book in two places at once. Unless you finished the first half, ripped it in half, handed the first half to her while you finished the second, but software isn't usually that flexible - with the exception of multi-disc games.

As long as you're not playing it in a way that you couldn't reasonably do so without the physical disc, I think it's fairly reasonable to do so. Here's a nice example - I have an extensive DVD collection. I would like to be able to watch the movies contained those DVDs without pulling them off the shelf. I could either buy a big DVD carousel, RIP the DVDs myself, or download copies of the movies. I think any of those are morally acceptable ways to accomplish this task. The caveat is that I shouldn't loan out my DVDs and then watch them at home while they're loaned out to a friend.

Not doubting you, but I find it mind boggling that, to avoid having to stand up, walk over to a shelf, grab a DVD case, open it and place the DVD inside a player, people hop online and download a rip of the DVD.

What do people expect when they bought the DVD player and the DVD in the first place? Why not just buy digital copies of the movies in the first place? They wouldn't have to leave their apparently comfy couch to do so.

Too bad it's been made illegal and/or technically difficult to do so. What then?

Play the game on the format for which it was initially purchased?

 

[xelios]

He can't have his cake and eat it too. If he wants to keep his copy sealed, then he has to accept the consequences that stem from that, i.e., not being able to play the game unless he purchases another copy.

Or else...

Also another question about a game I own. Wizardry 8. When I install the discs are patched too high and it ruins pickpocket and other things, and there is no way to revert to an earlier patch without downloading the game in that state. Screwed? According to some posts here.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Or else...

Also another question about a game I own. Wizardry 8. When I install the discs are patched too high and it ruins pickpocket and other things, and there is no way to revert to an earlier patch without downloading the game in that state. Screwed? According to some posts here.

Everyone has been responding to you keeping an unopened game that's pretty different from a game having a breaking bug.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Not doubting you, but I find it mind boggling that, to avoid having to stand up, walk over to a shelf, grab a DVD case, open it and place the DVD inside a player, people hop online and download a rip of the DVD.

What do people expect when they bought the DVD player and the DVD in the first place? Why not just buy digital copies of the movies in the first place? They wouldn't have to leave their apparently comfy couch to do so.



Play the game on the format for which it was initially purchased?

Walk out to the shed, find which box it's in, pull it out, and carry it back to the house. I was actually simplifying my situation a little. I bought most of these between 1997 and 2003 when I had a well paying job and very few expenses (was living at home).

 

[xelios]

Everyone has been responding to you keeping an unopened game that's pretty different from a game having a breaking bug.

Tbh half the people in this thread have been doing apples and oranges, who cares.

The question goes along with not playing with the discs you own. Just like not playing with the carts you own. And so on.

 

[Minsc]

Or else...

Also another question about a game I own. Wizardry 8. When I install the discs are patched too high and it ruins pickpocket and other things, and there is no way to revert to an earlier patch without downloading the game in that state. Screwed? According to some posts here.

What's ruined about it? According to the patch notes, the relevant sections on pick pocketing from the 1.24 patch are:

• Pickpocketing will now produce the exact same results if you simply reload & try again
• NPCs will now notice and act accordingly when their stuff keeps disappearing just after you've paid them a visit (successful pickpocketing is noticed - after the fact - and remembered).

Is it that you can't load and get different stuff, or something else? I hardly ever pick pocket in games, I like to earn my money from combat, but I'm curious what the flaw is.

There were like 1 or 2 posts which commented on nocds or patches, which to me are no different than mods, which fall under basically you can do what you want with the game once you've installed it, so long as you aren't screwing with their servers or multiplayer.

 

[jorma]

It's a super gray area. I like to take copyright compass like it should work for a paperback book. If I own a copy of a paperback book, I can read it anywhere, whether it's on a bus, or a train, a plane, wrapped in a plastic bag while I'm scuba diving, lying in bed, or sitting on the couch. I can read it any of these places. So can my girlfriend. We're just not allowed to both read it at the same time, unless she's reading it to me or visa versa.

But you ARE allowed to read that book at the same time. You are just unable to. With a digital version of the book however, any limitation in that regard is purely artificial, since you can make her a copy to read. (Something that is perfectly legal in my legislative area)

 

[desh]

Oh God copyrights aren't just okay to dismiss because money was exchanged, that isn't...

*sigh*

...Whatever makes you feel better, guys.

So, basically you have no argument to refute the fact that the OP did indeed pay 1 copy of the game and is playing exactly 1 copy of the game.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

But you ARE allowed to read that book at the same time. You are just unable to. With a digital version of the book however, any limitation in that regard is purely artificial, since you can make her a copy to read. (Something that is perfectly legal in my legislative area)

Your area?

 

[mclem]

Do you think that Nintendo should have the right to sue you for playing a rom of Super Mario World on your computer via an SNES emulator if you can produce your cartridge of Super Mario World proving that you own it?

Just to throw a spanner in the works, but as a PAL gamer, it's certainly something that's been an issue:

If you own a copy that is inherently inferior to another copy - i.e. PAL-with-slowdown versus NTSC-60Hz - it is definitely illegal to acquire the other copy - they're distinct versions, you cannot argue that it's the same game, and you obviously cannot rip the 60Hz version yourself from the 50Hz version you own. I would argue that that is something that is morally wrong on the part of the *publisher*, even though it is entirely legal.

 

[RJT]

I hardly ever pick pocket in games, I like to earn my money from combat.

Spoiler

had to...

 

[Dead Man]

The advent of digital media has made traditional IP laws looks rather foolish. Morally, to me, it's simple. You own a copy of the game. You can play the game in whatever manner (assuminig you have not pirated a different format of game eg Iphone to PC or whatever), as long as you don't after you sell the game. Legally it is a clusterfuck of varying size depending where you live.

 

[RJT]

The advent of digital media has made traditional IP laws looks rather foolish. Morally, to me, it's simple. You own a copy of the game. You can play the game in whatever manner (assuminig you have not pirated a different format of game eg Iphone to PC or whatever), as long as you don't after you sell the game. Legally it is a clusterfuck of varying size depending where you live.

I agree with this. Emulators are fine, nocd patches are fine, and downloading a backup instead of making a backup is fine too. And it's easier most of the times.

My rules are:
a) you don't pay for backups/roms/emulators/whatever. Also avoid sites filled with advertising.
b) you support cool initiatives like GOG
c) if you sell/lose your stuff, you lose the right to play it. Scratched or otherwise damaged games allow you to play backups though.

Pretty simple, actually.

Spoiler

But yeah, it is illegal

 

[KungFuGrip]

OP, just download the games. Copyright law is so badly written these days and so far removed from its original intention. You've paid for your copies, which is more than what most people who download games do.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

This is kind of offtopic, but I was just thinking the other day how funny it would be if everyone started downloading their games and then sending a check/money order directly to the developer's studio for the purchase price of the game. People are always commenting on how developers get an extremely small portion of the MSRP for games due to publishers, so what would happen if consumers cut out the middle man.

Then games would be funded soley by user donations since Publishers would stop funding them.

It would be interesting (and highly unfriendly to new entrants) but unlikely to happen anytime soon.

 

[Yasae]

Tbh half the people in this thread have been doing apples and oranges, who cares.

The question goes along with not playing with the discs you own. Just like not playing with the carts you own. And so on.

It's 100% piracy.

What's your real question?

 

[Nessus]

Honestly, who the hell buys physical PC games anymore anyways?

Steam is just so much better in every conceivable way.

 

[plagiarize]

Clarksons law: any debate on videogame piracy has run its course when people start using car analogies.

what do people think? appropriate name? needs the definition tweaking?

 

[Minsc]

Honestly, who the hell buys physical PC games anymore anyways?

Steam is just so much better in every conceivable way.

Millions of people bought retail copies of StarCraft 2... probably true of The Sims 3 and a few other titles. Even Gamestop still has a section of PC games as big as the PSP section. But generally, not many gamers do retail I think. There's still a bunch of people who prefer to buy retail whenever a title is steamwork's though.

 

[Zaptruder]

This is about as morally gray as pirating a game before you purchase it, under the pretense that you're just demoing the game.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Could you explain this? You're legally entitled to play a game you bought for one format on any other format? I just don't see how buying a cartridge for the NES in the 80s would give you a lifetime right to play the ROM on your PC, PS3, iPhone, etc.

Because it factually does. Format shifting is a recognized legal right in most jurisdictions and a moral right to anyone that isn't crazy. Buying the game on the NES doesn't entitle me to play the SNES port or the DS port or a 360 remake. It doesn't entitle me to pirate the VC version. It does entitle me to make my own VC version or play an exact NES ROM copy on other platforms.

The only controversial thing about pre-disc media is whether it entitles me to do so when I don't have cart dumping hardware and thus need to download a ROM. But frankly, that's hair splitting--there are millions of people who download whole DS ROM sets and if there's anyone who feels it's worth their time to impeach my character because I'm playing Yo! Noid on my PC instead of hooking up my NES and playing my cart copy, well, good luck to them.

 

[Zoe]

This is about as morally gray as pirating a game before you purchase it, under the pretense that you're just demoing the game.

What's the general opinion on doing that to see how well your PC will run the game?

 

[Bonton]

It's a super gray area. I like to take copyright compass like it should work for a paperback book. If I own a copy of a paperback book, I can read it anywhere, whether it's on a bus, or a train, a plane, wrapped in a plastic bag while I'm scuba diving, lying in bed, or sitting on the couch. I can read it any of these places. So can my girlfriend. We're just not allowed to both read it at the same time, unless she's reading it to me or visa versa.

How do you read a sealed book?

 

[Stumpokapow]

How do you read a sealed book?

There is (basically) no such thing as a sealed book. Provided the paper hasn't yellowed, there are no tears or folds, and the spine hasn't cracked, the book is mint.

 

[Bonton]

There is (basically) no such thing as a sealed book. Provided the paper hasn't yellowed, there are no tears or folds, and the spine hasn't cracked, the book is mint.

Sealed = wrapped in plastic = you can sell it back as new, after you read/played the stolen one = the main point in this thread

 

[mrklaw]

Maybe I fall under weird, but there are some games/series I truly love and just like to have a sealed copy of, and ALSO play the game. Ever heard of Collector's Editions then double dipping with Steam for the standard version?

collectors tend to buy two of something - one to keep in mint condition in a special room somewhere, and one to play with.

 

[jorma]

Sealed = wrapped in plastic = you can sell it back as new, after you read/played the stolen one = the main point in this thread

I don't think thats the main point in this thread at all. Frankly i don't see the connection between that point and the legality/morality of the potential copyright infringements in the op.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Sealed = wrapped in plastic = you can sell it back as new, after you read/played the stolen one = the main point in this thread

No one seals books in plastic so? You're argument is a pretty bad analogy.

 

[xelios]

The only controversial thing about pre-disc media is whether it entitles me to do so when I don't have cart dumping hardware and thus need to download a ROM. But frankly, that's hair splitting--there are millions of people who download whole DS ROM sets and if there's anyone who feels it's worth their time to impeach my character because I'm playing Yo! Noid on my PC instead of hooking up my NES and playing my cart copy, well, good luck to them.

Yeah, that's how I feel. I bought the game, I own the game, I'm even playing it on the platform I own it on. If I sell the game I then would no longer own it and it'd be wrong of me to download/play it.

In this instance you're not even buying it again on VC if it's readily available there; you're just making your own VC copy (with downloaded ROMs?), but you say I should double dip on PC because my games are sealed.

Anyway this thread was mostly concerning older games and we are both talking about that imo, since neither require keys. If and when it becomes available for digital download ($) and it's a game I actually play, I most certainly buy it again in that format -- especially if it makes it more convenient to play (Steam). I've done this with the Gothic series and several others (and on VC as well).

My question was of the legality, after thinking it over and considering all the replies I don't have any qualms with the morality. Needless to say my initial question has been answered, but the rest is an interesting discussion.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

The thing I don't get, is if these games are so meaningful and are like works of art so you have to have them sealed because of how good they are, why would you be so against buying a second copy? I would think you'd be more wiling to buy a second copy due to liking the game so much.

 

[commish]

The thing I don't get, is if these games are so meaningful and are like works of art so you have to have them sealed because of how good they are, why would you be so against buying a second copy? I would think you'd be more wiling to buy a second copy due to liking the game so much.

Maybe he's buying THE ONLY COPY IN EXISTENCE.

 

[xelios]

The thing I don't get, is if these games are so meaningful and are like works of art so you have to have them sealed because of how good they are, why would you be so against buying a second copy? I would think you'd be more wiling to buy a second copy due to liking the game so much.

I have no problem buying a second copy, but I want it to be digital. I don't have infinite space in my house. Some I did wind up with a second physical copy of because at the time it wasn't digitally available (Morrowind GOTY so I can keep the collector's sealed, BG:II for the same reasons) though I will gradually be getting rid of the ones I own digitally to free up space for the rest.

 

[Baki]

I find nothing wrong "morally" with what you are doing.

 

[erpg]

So, basically you have no argument to refute the fact that the OP did indeed pay 1 copy of the game and is playing exactly 1 copy of the game.

Other than the fact that it's illegal? I mean really guys, is it so hard to understand that your personal moral code isn't the law?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I have no problem buying a second copy, but I want it to be digital. I don't have infinite space in my house. Some I did wind up with a second physical copy of because at the time it wasn't digitally available (Morrowind GOTY so I can keep the collector's sealed, BG:II for the same reasons) though I will gradually be getting rid of the ones I own digitally to free up space for the rest.

But both of those are easily available digitally. What games do you have that aren't digital?

 

[red shoe paul]

It's legal to have backups of your games, but I don't think it's legal to download those backups.

Correct.

 

[jorma]

Other than the fact that it's illegal? I mean really guys, is it so hard to understand that your personal moral code isn't the law?

You are still not refuting his contention.

 

[commish]

You are still not refuting his contention.

Are you insinuating that if you buy something, it's okay to obtain another one by illegal means and use this illegitimate copy if you don't use the one you bought?

 

[erpg]

You are still not refuting his contention.

Why the hell would I need to?

What the heck is wrong with your BRAINS!?

 

[jorma]

Are you insinuating that if you buy something, it's okay to obtain another one by illegal means and use this illegitimate copy if you don't use the one you bought?

That is what plenty of people have been "insinuating" from post number one, yes. I would have zero moral qualms about it.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

That is what plenty of people have been "insinuating" from post number one, yes. I would have zero moral qualms about it.

Are you just trying to troll? Why are you purposefully ignoring the argument why that has been stated multiple times by multiple people, including the one you quoted.