It normally doesn't bother me, but that did. There are lots of speech patterns that can do this though. It's really an involuntary thing. Both on their part and the person annoyed. What I don't get is why anyone would think they are not intelligent or would say anything to their face. That seems like a real dickish thing to do (after I say that her voice annoyed me. I know).
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Is it wrong to judge somebody for speaking with a vocal fry/uptalk?
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It normally doesn't bother me, but that did. There are lots of speech patterns that can do this though. It's really an involuntary thing. Both on their part and the person annoyed. What I don't get is why anyone would think they are not intelligent or would say anything to their face. That seems like a real dickish thing to do (after I say that her voice annoyed me. I know).
Vocal fry is an affection -- something people choose to do ... it's basically imitating Kim Kardashian. I have to agree with Lake Bell regarding this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/lake-bell-in-a-world_n_3671145.html
People will judge you based upon how you choose to communicate, whether it is fair or not/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/lake-bell-in-a-world_n_3671145.html
People will judge you based upon how you choose to communicate, whether it is fair or not/
Like most linguistic changes, old people judge things they don't understand.
It's not "wrong" to judge, but only because "right" and "wrong" linguistically are hard to define. Vocal fry is not a conscious affectation in 2016, and absolutely does not denote the speakers intelligence or socioeconomic status.
It's not "wrong" to judge, but only because "right" and "wrong" linguistically are hard to define. Vocal fry is not a conscious affectation in 2016, and absolutely does not denote the speakers intelligence or socioeconomic status.
Eh, that seems like a mild form of turrets or OCD
Sometimes vocal fry annoys me but if the person sounds intelligent and knows what they're talking about I think it can be kind of attractive
Killer Queen
Banned
I find up talking annoying and it comes off as pretentious to me but I don't think I've met anyone in real life that uses the vocal fry unironically
I mostly agree, but to play devil's advocate and interrogate this line of thinkingwhat about gay accents/lisps? It's an affectation too. Is it fine to think less of them for their speaking habits?
PassiveObserver
Member
This woman on some of the Slate podcasts has major vocal fry. She sounds intelligent and cute kinda. Katy Waldman.
Good read:
http://ww2.kqed.org/pop/2015/07/29/why-naomi-wolf-is-like-totally-wrong-on-vocal-fry/
Has a clip of men's vocal fry
Good read:
http://ww2.kqed.org/pop/2015/07/29/why-naomi-wolf-is-like-totally-wrong-on-vocal-fry/
Has a clip of men's vocal fry
I just never understood how this was associated with gender, I know plenty of men who use vocal fry and uptalk. Probably more men than women.
It's not wrong to judge people for how they speak. People always judge people for how they present themselves and how that reflects on their character, like that firm versus limp handshake thing or how casually someone uses curse words.
That said I'm only especially annoyed by verbal ticks when the person is giving a speech of some type or talking on the radio or a podcast. I find it really distracting.
It's not wrong to judge people for how they speak. People always judge people for how they present themselves and how that reflects on their character, like that firm versus limp handshake thing or how casually someone uses curse words.
That said I'm only especially annoyed by verbal ticks when the person is giving a speech of some type or talking on the radio or a podcast. I find it really distracting.
I have pretty extreme vocal fry.
I do hours long presentations/training sessions about twice a month, public speaking is literally my job, and vocal fry has NEVER got in the way of my job.
I'm a man though
bloodforge
Member
I don't really notice vocal fry until its pointed out so not really any issue with it.
Up talking on the other hand is annoying as hell. I've known a number of people who talk like that.
Up talking on the other hand is annoying as hell. I've known a number of people who talk like that.
supernormal
Member
Nobody seems to complain about vocal fry when men do it.
Every single cool male lead with a gravely voice has used vocal fry at some point in a movie and you loved it.
Every single cool male lead with a gravely voice has used vocal fry at some point in a movie and you loved it.
Langdon Alger
Banned
I listen to a podcast called The Slate Culture Gabfest, and all of their younger reporters or interns have insane vocal fry. I don't know if it's an east coast thing or just a young person thing or what.
Fusilli Craig
Member
Stuff You Should Know, a podcast, did an episode on vocal fry, up talk and the origins and evolution of both. Really interesting and discussed how females have traditionally introduced vocal cadence and quirks before larger adoption sets in.
Personally, it would be idiotic of me to come to a conclusion about someone based on the way they talk.
Professionally, I can see how uptalk wouldn't be ideal, especially in a presentation/pitching environment. In speech 101, you're taught how to kill uptalk. The rationale is that uptalk makes everything you say sound like a question, and if you're pitching an idea, you (obviously) want to convey as much confidence as possible.
Professionally, I can see how uptalk wouldn't be ideal, especially in a presentation/pitching environment. In speech 101, you're taught how to kill uptalk. The rationale is that uptalk makes everything you say sound like a question, and if you're pitching an idea, you (obviously) want to convey as much confidence as possible.
Langdon Alger
Banned
Why?
Because your expectations of "right" speech is based entirely on your culture and/or your education, which is by definition extremely limited to a small, small, small percentage of everyone you could encounter on earth.
Devil's Advocate argument:
Given what you just said in a professional context, doesn't that extend to other contexts? If somebody speaks to me with uptalk, it makes them sound less confident to me. This effects how I perceive them. Maybe I take on a perception that they are a consistently unsure person, for example. Is that wrong?
Alex Stroud
Banned
I'd rather people have some respect for the image they're portraying to others. Vocal fry and uptalking does no one favors.
Counter:
Instead of expecting people to train themselves to conform to your tiny expectations, perhaps you should train yourself to not perceive uptalk in a negative light?
My devil's advocate argument is working from the given assumption that it is wrong in a professional context.
You said "it makes them sound less confident to me" something you have control over.
From a devil's advocate pov.
Well, yes that is true that it does that to me, but I was extending his argument of sounding less confident in a professional setting to other settings as well.
theepicoftyler
Member
People who get upset at this are dumb.
There is my judgement.
There is my judgement.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Wait, men do it too? I have only heard that vocal fry on tv and it was women, never met one in real life. Any links to how a man sounds?
Does not bother me at all and I would judge on the substance of what someone says rather than their accent but I also like all the diverse ways people speak.
To which I say, as vocalization and presentation change consequently with language, it's up to those who are left behind to train themselves instead of those who are bringing innovation.
I'd post my podcast but it seems egotistical.
Lots of men have vocal fry, but it's more excused.
liliththepale
Banned
I think it's worthwhile to point out how hypocritical this type of post is.
You give no explanation for why vocal fry and uptalking are bad. They're not. They may be distinct from the way you're used to hearing people talk, but that doesn't make them bad. Conversely, I'm used to hearing people speak with vocal fry, so should I criticize those who abstain? You can't just criticize something without explaining why and then claim to be taking the high road.
Please have some respect for the image you're portraying to others.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
More like an accent and they don't even know they're doing it.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Uhh, I don't think uptalk is innovative in any way. Sure, maybe in 100 years that is how everybody will be talking, who knows. But it's not as if its giving something new to communication.
In your opinion.
It's impossible to ascertain in the moment whether a singular vocal tick is going to change the way we speak, one thing is for certain though, uptalk has been more permanent than most "slang" affectations and seems to have taken root in a generation of Americans.
The reasons aren't for us to judge, we as the older generation only have to understand that language, both spoken and written, are not ours to steward but only observe and try to keep up with.
As always, there is not "right" and "wrong" way to speak english. There is only the "understandable" and "unintelligible".
the_batman
Banned
girls who occasionally use the vocal fry can seem more attractive to me
uptalkers can go to hell, though.
uptalkers can go to hell, though.
Ceallach
Smells like fresh rosebuds
I have a fair amount of vocal fry. I'm a 31yo woman btw and have been doing it since I was a teenager, it evolved in my voice around puberty. It is not a choice. But I can concentrate and eliminate it, which I do when I have any kind of public speaking
And for anyone judging intelligence based on it, I have a BSEE from UMD, along with DOL Electronics Mechanic and Electronics Technician certifications and am a fairly decorated Fire Controlman First Class in the US Navy.
And for anyone judging intelligence based on it, I have a BSEE from UMD, along with DOL Electronics Mechanic and Electronics Technician certifications and am a fairly decorated Fire Controlman First Class in the US Navy.
If you want to argue about it being "understandable" uptalk only harms that. English has used what uptalk consistently does as a way to denote a sense of unsureness. It essentially acts like Spanish's subjunctive mood. But if people always speak in uptalk, that mood is taken away from English.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Looked up male vocal fry and it sounds like how I speak when I wake up hungover.
supernormal
Member
The clip in the article has men doing it, albeit a bit over the top. Here's a more normal approach that you hear all the time in this Iron Man 3 trailer when he says "teacherrr, numberrr, etc"
https://youtu.be/oYSD2VQagc4?t=58
LookAtMeGo
Member
liliththepale
Banned
Would you like to know what else is annoying?
shitting on the way people speak when there's literally nothing wrong with it -_-
Would you like to know what else is annoying?
shitting on the way people speak when there's literally nothing wrong with it -_-
I'll be the judge of that.
You're wrong though, English hasn't always used "uptalk" as a denotaiton of question, that was brought over by the mostly French speaking Normans.
Other languages don't have these "uptalking" hangups that English stubbornly clings too either.
Yes, for a long time, uptalk has been used to help listeners understand context, but that does not mean that we have to keep what once was a French affectation forever.
I never said that English always used that. It's not like I could possibly know that. What I said is that using uptalk to denote uncertainty in a statement or emphasize something is a question adds expressivity to the language. How does saying everything with uptalk add expressivity? It just takes it away.
The way you talk =/= the way you are. Your speech and vocal patterns are a result of where you grew up and who you grew up around. In my opinion, it's not smart to form an opinion on someone just because they talk and sound differently.
You can be trained to change your speech and vocal patterns, but a presence/absence of uptalk/vocal fry tells me absolutely nothing about your thinking abilities, creative abilities, morals, ethics, etc.
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