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Is Microsoft making two completely different Xbox branded products for next gen?
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Karak
Member
Does digital foundry have any fundamental history of being right on anything like this in the past? Because some of the lacking hardware bits and strange tech pieces is just looking almost laughable. I would love to see them take on Google and Apple but they would actually...have to have a product that does something first, and additional purchasing factors would be even better.
Maybe they would have some kind of content provider sign up deals like the dreamcast to get a better machine, if you subscribed. Please god no that doesn't even look write after I typed it. Man these ideas just boggle the mind.
With so many ideas MS has had and dropped I am hoping this is one, or its more fleshed out and solid of a device than these rumors indicate. I would love to see them in the space, with a unique machine.
I'm viewing Digital Foundry as a subset of Eurogamer's sources, which have a pretty solid record, since the two often run each other's rumors and articles.
Karak
Member
Ah well that changes it then. I gotcha. That does lend it some credence. *Crosses fingers that they do it right*
I feel like they should just brand it as Kinect, and keep the products different. I do think Microsoft could have the potential to hit Apple in the tv space, if they don't screw it up, though it would be 100 bucks more than Apple Tv...
I do however like the fact that they are dedicated a SKU to the core gamer, rather than just trying to lump them together into one.
I do however like the fact that they are dedicated a SKU to the core gamer, rather than just trying to lump them together into one.
While Apple TV is definitely doing better than Google TV ever had hopes of doing, it's not exactly a hot-like-fire item, either.
I feel that net-based set-top boxes are a trend that people are trying to make happen, rather than there actually being an overwhelming demand...or need, really.
Face it, Apple TV first came out in 2007, and since then cable boxes have evolved to cover much of what Apple TV can do. Streaming, on-demand content, DVR capabilities, and these services are only improving. It's only a matter of time before HD cable boxes provide basic web browsing for HD sets, and when that happens there will officially be nothing Apple TV, Google TV, or any other set-top box alternative can do that people won't already be able to do with the service they're already paying for.
MS has an "in" with gaming, but then they'd be competing directly with their own products.
I just don't see how this makes sense in the long term...unless one of them partners with cable providers and co-brands the service.
I feel that net-based set-top boxes are a trend that people are trying to make happen, rather than there actually being an overwhelming demand...or need, really.
Face it, Apple TV first came out in 2007, and since then cable boxes have evolved to cover much of what Apple TV can do. Streaming, on-demand content, DVR capabilities, and these services are only improving. It's only a matter of time before HD cable boxes provide basic web browsing for HD sets, and when that happens there will officially be nothing Apple TV, Google TV, or any other set-top box alternative can do that people won't already be able to do with the service they're already paying for.
MS has an "in" with gaming, but then they'd be competing directly with their own products.
I just don't see how this makes sense in the long term...unless one of them partners with cable providers and co-brands the service.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Wouldn't it be a waste not have the set-top box play 360 games?
It's always been my understanding that these were two separate products.
In fact the original MSNerd "timeline" leak explicitly referred to 2 products - (1) "Loop" launching in 2013 and (2) Xbox PU (product upgrade) launching in 2014.
I think its also questionable whether Loop will be an Xbox-branded product. They'll most likely do something similar to WP7, where Xbox factors heavily into the marketing campaign, but it's a separate and distinct platform.
In fact the original MSNerd "timeline" leak explicitly referred to 2 products - (1) "Loop" launching in 2013 and (2) Xbox PU (product upgrade) launching in 2014.
I think its also questionable whether Loop will be an Xbox-branded product. They'll most likely do something similar to WP7, where Xbox factors heavily into the marketing campaign, but it's a separate and distinct platform.
I don't see gaming as the in. Kinect service is the in. Beyond gaming the primary purpose is to provide an 'advanced natural user interface.'
The television market right now very closely resembles the cell phone market pre-iPhone. My newest TV and Blu-Ray player (different companies) are both connected to the internet. They try to offer a variety of apps and services, but accessing them through the traditional remote can be a chore. TV companies want (need?) to get rid of the onscreen keyboard before Apple does.
There's a big reason why this can't happen. A casual device like the one mentioned would either require a: an internet connection as in download only or b: a completely splintered off brand and shelf space in stores for these small games. Although the hardcore has embraced live and arcade, take say Wii's audience and I'd be willing to bet a very small fraction of the base downloads games or is connected to the internet.
Shrinking down the current 360 even further ala psone pstwo makes more sense. Same brand, same shelf space but the system itself will be transitioned to a more casual box but still have access for the latecomers and budget gamers.
Shrinking down the current 360 even further ala psone pstwo makes more sense. Same brand, same shelf space but the system itself will be transitioned to a more casual box but still have access for the latecomers and budget gamers.
CaptainABAB
Member
This.
Make a stand-alone Kinect2 that can also run "apps/casual games"
And then when XBOX 720 comes out, it can connect with Kinect2.
But it's not going to be a gaming device. It's an IPTV set-top box with a voice/motion controlled UI. It will most likely require Wifi to be of much use, but that's not really an issue in most households today.
Downloadable games will be one feature, but not the main driver. It probably would make sense for it to be XBLA compatible, and have all platforms be able to tap into a unified marketplace.
We'll have to see how well Kinect 2 performs. So far, they haven't been able to achieve this with the original Kinect (though it is selling well).
But if MS wants to set the new standard for television interface and control using Kinect, they're going to have to get it to the point where it's completely unobtrusive and can be used as mindlessly as a remote.
Again it would still require some type of connection to a provider of some sort. They aren't going to release a device like this and be able to sell games in stores for it. The device as described would be psp go all over again in console form unless they have a partnership with ATT, Verizon, time warner or something. If the hardcore wasn't ready for it the casuals sure as hell aren't. No way. Loop is a shrunken 360 w kinect standard. All other 360 models will be phased out and the hardcore will have the next box. I'm sure they could even throw in an ARM processor to the 360 loop for whatever windows 8 stuff they wanna do.
CrunchyFrog
Member
My question is this, what about developers? You wanna fragment them between two entirely different consoles? You'd have to make a decision of which sku to develop for, and in the end it would still end up being only a fraction of what the potential userbase would be if it were a unified ecosystem.
IDK, i could be completely wrong, but if this rumor end up being true it will be a very interesting next gen indeed, though the potential for disaster is high.
IDK, i could be completely wrong, but if this rumor end up being true it will be a very interesting next gen indeed, though the potential for disaster is high.
You're still hung up on the assumption that it's a game console. It's not a game console, it's a Microsoft product that happens to share some technologies with their game console. Microsoft does not need to sell packaged games for it, any more than Sony needs to be able to sell PS3 games for their TVs or Blu-ray players.
Arcade can be cross platform in this case. The highest spec game on loop can play and sell on xbox 3 just the same. Think apple or android market.
Not hung up on it. There's just no market for such a device. Remember nuon? That's what you guys are describing but with internet connectivity. Microsoft would have more success partnering with a tv manufacturer and building this into all of their sets than having a standalone box.
Skiptastic
Member
I thought the idea of Microsoft teaming up with all of these cable companies was the plan of implementing the 360 (or this KinecTV) as the new standard cable box. Maybe I was wrong about that...
If I wasn't wrong and the idea of implementing this new system is that it will act as a cable box, a 4GB flash drive won't cut it, especially not for HD content. You'll need a hard drive to act as a DVR. I think DVRs in cable boxes have become fairly ubiquitous and consumers won't like not being able to DVR their favorite TV shows.
If this is just a standalone unit, how many Kinect games do you figure you can store on a 4GB hard drive? You have to factor in the size of the game, user profile, and game data. Unless you're doing that all from the cloud, which hasn't come up in this thread, I don't believe.
Won't be that easy if the Loop is using completely different architecture.
Possible, I suppose (I'm not a chip guy), but I don't see MS throwing a wrench in the gears for devs like this when, up until now, they've been leading the charge on making hardware that as easy on devs as possible.
It remains to be seen whether there is a market for it.
Have you tried the new 360 dashboard UI? With 3-4 voice commands, you can be streaming the movie/TV show of your choice. Waaay faster and easier than any remote control or keyboard interface. Voice control is really a very compelling interface for TV.
Eventually the tech could very well be integrated into TV sets. But it's obviously much easier for the hundreds of millions of current HDTV owners to buy a $100-200 box than replace their TVs.
chickdigger802
Banned
So instead of a redesign of the 360 slim next year, there will probably be a slim with more HD and I assume this model will replace the 4gb kinect bundel?
Makes more sense than the other rumors.
the actual successor next year sounds way too soon, unless they have something in the bag to get people to buy a new system. Heck halo 4 is next year, unless they go all twilight princess with it.
Makes more sense than the other rumors.
the actual successor next year sounds way too soon, unless they have something in the bag to get people to buy a new system. Heck halo 4 is next year, unless they go all twilight princess with it.
I'm confused on what some are thinking. That consumers will want to navigate their TV and the content/devices hooked up by moving their hands in the air? That is what Kinect is. Have those saying that actually tried that on 360? It takes forever compared to using the controller. Even saying 'Xbox, do this' isn't going to replace holding a device and navigating. Kinect will not take over anything. It is being pushed like 3D and will suffer the same fate. Hardly anybody cares and if they get a 3D TV, it's because their newly purchased TV came with it. I just don't understand Kinect being for this and that. I won't be surprised when this becomes another failed project from MS. I'll be surprised if it takes off other than casuals buying it for mediocre to terrible motion games for their kids.
preach it brother, this has bad news and sega written all over it even though microsoft can afford to waste the money.
Yeah. I'm in the beta. Dont like it much. Again I'd bank on this being built into a tv set if it's not a 360 based device. Either that or someone else had the idea that the standalone device is actually kinect 2 (built in ARM, WiFi, connects right to tv and then ALSO connects to the xbox3. Even that makes more sense than some totally independent box.
Makes sense to me.
I think Kinect has outgrown Xbox from MS's point of view.
I don't think MS wants Kinect's future to be tied (exclusively, or primarily) to what would potentially be a $500 hardware investment. If the next Kinect were introduced like that it could seriously stall their ambitions.
I think they want, from the start, basically 'a Wii' while also not wanting to abandon the traditional, core, market. So they split the platforms and pursue both more independently.
I'm not even sure the set-top-box thing would carry the Xbox brand.
I think there's also, perhaps, a growing recognition within MS that Kinect is mis-applied when put exclusively in the context of a hardcore 'dudebro' box. MS didn't have anything else to drive it with before, but I think know they'd have the confidence to let it stand on its own two feet.
I think Kinect has outgrown Xbox from MS's point of view.
I don't think MS wants Kinect's future to be tied (exclusively, or primarily) to what would potentially be a $500 hardware investment. If the next Kinect were introduced like that it could seriously stall their ambitions.
I think they want, from the start, basically 'a Wii' while also not wanting to abandon the traditional, core, market. So they split the platforms and pursue both more independently.
I'm not even sure the set-top-box thing would carry the Xbox brand.
I think there's also, perhaps, a growing recognition within MS that Kinect is mis-applied when put exclusively in the context of a hardcore 'dudebro' box. MS didn't have anything else to drive it with before, but I think know they'd have the confidence to let it stand on its own two feet.
a Master Ninja
Member
You make a compelling argument, Nirolak.
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
I've been saying for a long time that Microsoft will probably aim to make their next console a glorified set top box (complete with cable card and TV channel/Game subscription packages) and this rumour fits right in with what I've been saying.
But having two new consoles seems crazy, so I've come up with two possibilities. What I'm thinking is maybe this Xbox "Loop" set top box is actually a remoddelled Xbox 360 with a built in/bundled Kinect, with the next gen console being a traditionally designed machine (the idea being that they couldn't make the Xbox Ten small enough to fit into a small set top box, but it might still have that cable card slot)
Over time as the fab process continues to shrink, the Xbox Ten will eventually get a remodel that makes it as small as a set top box, replacing the Loop.
Alternatively, assuming that the Loop really is ARM based, it'll be positioned as a Windows 8 console that is capable of playing all ARM based Windows 8 apps (but will not be able to play Xbox or 360 games for obvious reasons) In which case, it might eschew a controller all together and go Kinect 2 only.
Yep, that sounds good to me too.
But having two new consoles seems crazy, so I've come up with two possibilities. What I'm thinking is maybe this Xbox "Loop" set top box is actually a remoddelled Xbox 360 with a built in/bundled Kinect, with the next gen console being a traditionally designed machine (the idea being that they couldn't make the Xbox Ten small enough to fit into a small set top box, but it might still have that cable card slot)
Over time as the fab process continues to shrink, the Xbox Ten will eventually get a remodel that makes it as small as a set top box, replacing the Loop.
Alternatively, assuming that the Loop really is ARM based, it'll be positioned as a Windows 8 console that is capable of playing all ARM based Windows 8 apps (but will not be able to play Xbox or 360 games for obvious reasons) In which case, it might eschew a controller all together and go Kinect 2 only.
Yep, that sounds good to me too.
I'd say this is the safest bet so far, having Kinect 2 as an indepedant box makes sense. Kinect is already a recognised Xbox-affiliated brand, so there'd be no need to give it the 'Xbox' tag. Like others have said above, it wouldn't surprise me if the next 'true' Xbox (likely called the 720) can be paired with Kinect 2, but isn't actually required to run simple apps and casual games.
I can imagine services such as Netflix, Facebook, Twitter etc. becoming an integral part of the standalone Kinect 2 platform. If MS really is investing in cloud-based and streaming tech, a cheap set-top would do the job wonderfully at a very fair price.
Cliffy B on Kinect:
http://www.oxm.co.uk/36575/bleszinski-talks-up-skyrim-kinect-i-want-to-cast-spells-using-my-hand/
Cliffy B said:
http://www.oxm.co.uk/36575/bleszinski-talks-up-skyrim-kinect-i-want-to-cast-spells-using-my-hand/
I believe the rumors and support the idea, but :
why make a box compatible with Kinect games and not Games on Demand or XBLA?
The box being limited by price/form factor does not mean you can't add a usb drive for those interested.
As far Kinect 2.0 to be a self reliant box, it's no good. Having a box + camera makes it easier to place the camera wherever needed.
why make a box compatible with Kinect games and not Games on Demand or XBLA?
The box being limited by price/form factor does not mean you can't add a usb drive for those interested.
As far Kinect 2.0 to be a self reliant box, it's no good. Having a box + camera makes it easier to place the camera wherever needed.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
Agreed. Kinect TV and Xbox 3 seem better positioned for co-existance than having multiple incompatible Xbox systems on the market. I know the iDevice example was brought up earlier, but I don't find it particularly relevant for various reasons (gaming versus convergence, handheld versus set top, etc). Really the idea reminded me more of early 90s Sega trying to simultaneously launch 2 incompatible Genesis successors (low end 32X and high end Saturn).
SuicidalSteve
Member
possible to compete with apples possible announcement of apple tv so that the new xbox tv can compete the marketshare? interesting...
Quicksilver4648
Member
Yeah, the OP is basically what I was thinking but obviously much more fleshed out. I think it is a good idea to have two different products; however, it might be very confusing to the casual market if they take their "new $200 Xbox" home and find out it doesn't play any (core) games for their kids. "Merry Christmas Johnny, here is your copy of Modern Warfare 4 and that new Xbox". Then little Johnny spend hours confused out of his mind as to where to put the disk.
Also, I personally believe that a new console would come by the end of 2013. It would make them only a year behind the Wii U and keep them competitive to the launch of the PS4 whenever that will be.
Also, I personally believe that a new console would come by the end of 2013. It would make them only a year behind the Wii U and keep them competitive to the launch of the PS4 whenever that will be.
It already has. Netflix has been the most popular 'game' on my friend list for years now. A true divide between set-top box, which is what they're moving towards with the new dash, and the console makes sense.
metareferential
Member
The problem is: Will Ms clearly and immediately state that the first product to launch (the set-top box) is not the new console? Will they just come out and say "are you a core gamer? Then wait another year"?
I mean, with Wii U and maybe a new Sony console round the (2012-13) corner, how can Ms convince people to wait?
I certainly wouldn't mind, but people buying a single console, could just jump on the Wii U/PS4 wagon.
ttocs
Member
Exactly. They need to get in first to grab the market or end up having to just play catch up in the end. I doubt Sony is going to flub their price again like they did with the PS3 so the competition could be on equal ground.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
This is what I don't get. Already we occasionally see Kinect+360 going for $200. What would the "Xbox Set Top Box" be able to do that a new X360 SKU couldn't, that would make it worth losing compatibility with its sibling devices and splitting the market?
Even if it's true that "The current Kinect is hamstrung by having to pass data to the Xbox 360 through ageing USB technology", wouldn't a modified 360 still be a simpler solution than making something completely different that would lose the ability to play 360 games or have its games played on the next major Xbox? Like when Nintendo wanted to throw a camera onto the DS they made the DSi, but not something that stood completely apart from the DS line.
Not sure how this is a problem. It's a different market they're going after. Release your Kinect TV in 2012, get marketshare from the casuals, and release Xbox 3 in 2013. The core gamers will decide which console they want to support in 2013, and MS makes money in both years with separate products. It's not like they would concede a big head start to PS4 by launching in relatively the same time frame. I'm sure they'd brand the packaging of the set top box so people don't mistakenly buy it thinking it's the Xbox 3.
So based on their track record, that'll be a few months then?
DeaconKnowledge
Member
My skepticism with this comes from what the two platforms wouldn't share. For instance, an optical drive not being common amongst them? That I find hard to believe.
charlequin
Banned
Function as a true cable box. Utilize whatever fancy-schmancy new features are included in the Kinect 2. Most importantly, run any and all Windows 8 tablet apps and thereby extend Microsoft's planned pan-device ecosystem.