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Jeff Grubb: Devs Fawning over PS5. Haven't heard the same praise for XSX, but heard nothing bad

Agnostic2020

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So today jeff grubb had few interesting things to share from his interview with devs. He said devs (mentions 3rd party for more than 25 years)who he has interviewed have all been in love with how great of machine ps5 is. He also mentioned he hasnt heard the devs praise xsx the same way.





Seems cerny has done a great job making devs life easy .
 
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Gashtronomy

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Cerny has always put devs first. He did with the ps4 so it makes sense he's doing it again with the ps5.



It's all well and good having the most powerful, least expensive, coolest looking or whatever console. At the end of the day, as a console manufacturer your customers aren't the gamers, the customers are the devs
 

Kuranghi

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Imagine if the PS5 show doesn't go ahead on June 4th, nothing happens and no word is given, people speculate wildly as whats "gone wrong". Then we get to July and there is no Xbox showing, we all start to get antsy and really worried that nothing is coming or something terrible has happened behind the scenes to both companies and then in August its revealed:

"The Playstation Series Xbox 5X"



FUSION!

Then we could stop all this pointless willy-waving.
 
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geordiemp

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I am not surprised, you have Cerny on one hand optimising caches and fine detail to remove the smallest of delays.

And MS with big fat API abstraction layers to make all stuff run on all things.

Totally different mindsets, MS great for back compatability but not the most efficient use of hardware.

Choose
 
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DynamiteCop!

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Basically every inkling of information from third party sources about the PlayStation 5 has been bloated and inaccurate, and not until real information came into the fray from Cerny himself did the disappointment of the system set in.

I just don't buy any of this BS, people have been trying to help this system along with handicaps and unrealistic praise since the first "leaks" started to surface.
 
x1

geordiemp

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Basically every inkling of information from third party sources about the PlayStation 5 has been bloated and inaccurate, and not until real information came into the fray from Cerny himself did the disappointment of the system set in.

I just don't buy any of this BS, people have been trying to help this system along with handicaps and unrealistic praise since the first "leaks" started to surface.
Unreal engine 5 demo says no.
 

SSDfan

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Easy to say that when the devs you talk to work at Sony Santa Monica and Sucker Punch.
Sony have taken a bit different aproach from MS. Their ultimage goal was not winning the TF fanboy war, but designing a console that really changes the gaming development enviroment with Speed as the center of definition of what the PS5 is all about, with unique custom level decisions that completely removes the need to make typical tricky "gamey" stuff that plagued gaming developers for decades.

It is a platform that really brings a whole New perspective when developing a game.
 
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The fact we have yet to hear properly from one dev who has both seems weird especially 4 months from launch.
Yeah that is pretty fucking weird...

Did MS just not send out Dev kits to most people?

Even Epic basically implied they haven't really worked with MS on XSX... WTF you doing Microsoft?


Nevermind that was some random on Twitter suggesting that not Jeff.
 
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Bernkastel

Formerly 'Lady Bernkastel'
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Wont fall for that Jeff Grub.
So, far what I have gathered on what devs think of Xbox Series X
Colin Penty, Technical Art Director at Coalition
Having dedicated ray tracing hardware is huge.
Daniele Galante and David Garcia, Ninja Theory Audio Team, Ninja Theory
Series X’s dedicated audio chip will mean they no longer have to sacrifice sound in order to facilitate other parts of their projects.
Erwan LeCun, co-founder of Ape Tribe Games
Joel Baker, Technical Director at Hinterland Games
Ray-Tracing is one of the most potent features, with big benefits for weather effects and immersion on the horizon. NVMe SSD tech and the custom hardware surrounding it to help get data into memory faster.
Gennadiy Korol, Director of Technology at Moon Studios
Playing games at a high refresh rate, at those crazy resolutions, is the next big thing in gaming.
Kevin Floyer-Lea, Chief Technology Officer at Rebellion
Excited to be able to hit 4K 60 FPS as standard. Hardware-accelerated ray tracing is also a very welcome feature. SSD storage takes beautiful realistic environments and make them load in a flash
Mike Rayner, Studio Technical Director at The Coalition
SSD speeds improve load times without any code changes. DirectStorage APIs and hardware decompression on the Xbox Series X are also key factors in further improving loading speeds. Sampler Feedback tech, which is part of the Xbox Velocity Architecture, loads textures more efficiently based on what the scene needs, further reducing the load on memory.
Excited about DXR and hardware ray tracing support
Alexandre Sabourin, Team Lead at Snowed In Studios
Hardware-accelerated ray-tracing, improved processing power, and SSD boosts will help the Xbox Series X.
Grant Kot, working on a Real-Time Particle Physics based game for Xbox Series X and high end PC's
Xbox Series X is more powerful than his 8700K RTX 2080 PC.
Richard Geldreich, worked at Space X, Valve and Ensemble
Xbox Series X's BCPack Compression technique is better than PS5's Kraken
Chris Grannel, ex-Sony first party dev who worked on Formula One Series, Wipeout HD:Fury and Killzone 2 for Playstation.
Xbox Series X caught Sony off-guard. Microsoft has been working a little bit closer with AMD on some of the technologies that they have been working on. Xbox Series X can do better real time Ray Tracing because of the higher 52 CU count compared to Playstation 5's 36. Microsoft has got some pluses like Xbox Series X's 320 bus compared to Playstation 5's 256 bus. As a developer he would rather work on fixed performance deltas.
Wojciech Piejko, Lead Game Designer at Bloober Team
Being able to work with the latest hardware in the form of the Xbox Series X – with 4K resolution, ray-tracing technology and SSD for a single, seamless cinematic experience without loading screens – has finally enabled then to do their vision justice.
Johannes Kuhlmann, head of core technology at FishLabs
It's easier to develop for Xbox Series X than any other console.
Ljubomir Peklar, designer at Ebb Software
Biggest change between this generation and the next is on the pure power afforded by the CPU at the heart of Series X.
Scorn is console exclusive to Xbox Series X because it enables parity with the PC version.
Difference between Xbox Series X SSD and PS5 SSD is effectively not going to be as big as seen on paper
Series X is a very balanced system. The SSD solution(referring to Xbox Velocity Architecture) is an incredible improvement when it comes to loading assets, and as it stands now it seems that there will be complete parity between PC and Series X versions of the game. Will explore Project Acoustics in the future. DirectML and NVIDIA's DLSS 2.0 are very interesting solutions when the game is not hitting the desired performance and it feels like these solutions could help players with weaker systems quite substantially.
Tor Frick and Arcade Berg, co-founders of Neon Giant
They are doing 4K 60 fps which is blazingly fast. Faster load speeds – it just comes out, magically, you just click, and there you go, it loads way faster. They have more detail than you can actually see at lower resolutions. Draw distances will be as long as they can make them. When the camera changes position following a vicious gunfight, you should be able to count the bullet-holes in the walls. Everything is ludicrously detailed, so when you bring down the camera, it just works.
Microsoft is very open and approachable, they know what it takes to be able to make a game for their machines, so they’re prepared – the tools are there. Series X represents a leap in video game development, it’s becoming easier and easier to develop. So it’s easier and easier to actually use all that power, and to spend more time on the creative bits, because ideally, you just want everything to work, to realise your creations. An 11-person indie studio could not have done what they are doing 20 years ago.
Edge Magazine, July 2020 Issue 346, Page 54-65
 
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oldergamer

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Lol that didn't age well :

What, people at that work in those development houses couldn't have been developing games for 25 years? Also, if you are going back 25 years, that takes you to the start of PSX, sega saturn, 3DO and N64. All those platforms were horrible to develop for (PSX was the easiest, but still a pain). So if you are comparing to all generations since instead of the last one only, this is easily the biggest jump they have made in a number of areas.
 

Agnostic2020

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Yeah that is pretty fucking weird...

Did MS just not send out Dev kits to most people?

Even Epic basically implied they haven't really worked with MS on XSX... WTF you doing Microsoft?
Or maybe xsx is more traditional in the way that each generation u get more gpu cpu and ram . Maybe ps5 dev environment is much more dev friendly and new with less limitations compared to before . Just guessing ofcourse .
 
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Most performant graphics we have seen on any console ever, by a large margin hands down.

You have been reading GAF, you must of noticed the seismic shift since that demo ?
I don’t understand the relevancy though. We don’t know for sure if the demo can’t run just as well on XsX, right?

Unless I misunderstood the point, which is possible.

If the point was just “next gen games are going to look great” then yeah, the UE5 demo definitely proved that
 

DynamiteCop!

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Sony have taken a bit different aproach from MS. Their ultimage goal was not winning the TF fanboy war, but designing a console that really changes the gaming development enviroment with Speed as the center of definition of what the PS5 is all about, with unique custom level decisions that completely removes the need to make typical tricky "gamey" stuff that plagued gaming developers for decades.

It is a platform that really brings a whole New perspective when developing a game.
And the question I would pose to you is this, how is the Series X with a 40x+ I/O throughput not doing the same? The limiting factor in all of this is still going to be the CPU and GPU. You can't increase your GPU and CPU computational capability by only a factor of 2-2.5x and 4x on the CPU and then increase the throughput by a factor of 40-100x and expect the limiting factor to still not be the GPU and CPU.

It doesn't matter how much your throughput can try to throw at the scene if the GPU can't render it.

Both what Microsoft and Sony did in the I/O department is overkill weighed against the computational capability of each system.
 

Agnostic2020

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What, people at that work in those development houses couldn't have been developing games for 25 years? Also, if you are going back 25 years, that takes you to the start of PSX, sega saturn, 3DO and N64. All those platforms were horrible to develop for (PSX was the easiest, but still a pain). So if you are comparing to all generations since instead of the last one only, this is easily the biggest jump they have made in a number of areas.
he meant they r not first party or second party.
He meant they are well known 3rd party with access to both xsx and ps5 dev machines and love ps5 over xsx
 
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Or maybe xsx is more traditional in the way that each generation u get more gpu cpu and ram . Maybe ps5 dev environment is much more dev friendly and new with less limitations compared to before . Just guessing ofcourse .
So what is the XsX’s limitation then? A still very fast SSD? I feel like we’ve spun our wheels about this before. I don’t understand the “XsX is hard to develop for” narrative
 

Bernkastel

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this is the same bullshit Jason said in his podcast
Listen to the podcast 32:44 onwards. Exact quote is at 51:10.
41:25 Apparently XSX reveal is just like Xbox One and PS5 is like PS4. LOL.
46:40 onwards Tries to explain that unlike PS4-Xbox One games wont actually look better on XSX(being as vague and roundabout as possible), because they are both "equally powerful" but PS5 has some "cool things"(the number of times he says "cool things", it comes with a freezer apparently). Teraflops dont matter but SSDs do(LOL). Sony failed to convey the superiority of PS5, so people think that XSX is more powerful. He says people are not saying XSX is more powerful because it is more poweful but because Sony failed to market its specs. He never said XSX is more powerful, never.
51:10 Exact Quote.
I heard from at least 3 Different people in the last couple of hours like, WOW, the Playstation 5 is actually the more superior piece of Hardware in a lot of different ways despite of what you see in the Spec Sheets.
He will either say they are equally power or hint at PS5 being more powerful by using the "heard from devs" card.
Now, give me back my time I used to listen to his retarded voice again.
Thats the point. He first says Teraflop does not matter(why does he no one talk about double the CU count in XSX then?), unlike Xbox One-PS4 games will look the same. He then says SSDs do matter. He finally says PS5 is better in "other ways" as he "heard from devs", after initially insisting on how there is no raw power difference. He even calls out to people saying XSX is more powerful, saying its because Sony didnt properly explain their specs to people and the ways they are superior to XSX. He even says XSX reveal is like Xbox One reveal and PS5 reveal is like PS4(in what world ?).
So,
  1. In most ways like raw power XSX is same as PS5
  2. But in some ways PS5 is better(secret sauce lol)
 
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Thirty7ven

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Yeah that is pretty fucking weird...

Did MS just not send out Dev kits to most people?

Even Epic basically implied they haven't really worked with MS on XSX... WTF you doing Microsoft?
We have though. Matt on purple site for example.

What some people don’t want to accept is that this ain’t Mickey Mouse league where everyone gets a prize. Devs can talk and praise what they want. They don’t have to reserve praise for the other box just so fanboys won’t feel left out.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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We have though. Matt on purple site for example.

What some people don’t want to accept is that this ain’t Mickey Mouse league where everyone gets a prize. Devs can talk and praise what they want. They don’t have to reserve praise for the other box just so fanboys won’t feel left out.
I read that tweet wrong and thought it was from Jeff himself claiming that.. but I was wrong and edited my post(s) on that.
 

SSDfan

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And the question I would pose to you is this, how is the Series X with a 40x+ I/O throughput not doing the same? The limiting factor in all of this is still going to be the CPU and GPU. You can't increase your GPU and CPU computational capability by only a factor of 2-2.5x and 4x on the CPU and then increase the throughput by a factor of 40-100x and expect the limiting factor to still not be the GPU and CPU.

It doesn't matter how much your throughput can try to throw at the scene if the GPU can't render it.

Both what Microsoft and Sony did in the I/O department is overkill weighed against the computational capability of each system.
Not the same and You know that
 

Shin

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It's so good that a praise thread needs to be created every day, sometimes more than one. :messenger_confused:
I've yet to see a product that needed so much re-assurance from all sides, fans, devs, publishers, engine builders and w/e else.
Sounds like PS5 is going to be the best thing since slice bread, the tempest engine, controller, variable clocks, audio and whatever else.
 
x1

oldergamer

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he meant they r not first party or second party.
He meant they are well known 3rd party with access to both xsx and ps5 dev machines and love ps5 over xsx
It doesn't really matter if it was first or third party to be honest. If they are developers that have been in the industry for 25 years and worked on consoles, they will 100% make that claim valid after they have witnessed how console development had been a shit show in the past (I could tell you some serious horror stories with the sega saturn of 3do) , with the exception of recent consoles. The 25 years remark gave more perspective on that statement is what I'm saying. For developers that have only worked on Xbox one & PS4 in the last 7 years, they might not share the same perspective.
 

ToadMan

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You can't increase your GPU and CPU computational capability by only a factor of 2-2.5x and 4x on the CPU and then increase the throughput by a factor of 40-100x and expect the limiting factor to still not be the GPU and CPU.
Actually yes you can if the limiting factor has been throughput of secondary storage media - which it has ...
 
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NeoGiffer

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So today jeff grubb had few interesting things to share from his interview with devs. He said devs (mentions 3rd party for more than 25 years)who he has interviewed have all been in love with how great of machine ps5 is. He also mentioned he hasnt heard the devs praise xsx the same way.





Seems cerny has done a great job making devs life easy .

 

DynamiteCop!

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Actually yes you can if the limiting factor has been throughout of secondary storage media - which it has ...
A limiting factor has been throughput to a degree, but even a multiplier of only a few times would have completely alleviated this problem. So with that said we're left with a situation where the throughput on both systems has greatly and by an order of magnitude exceeded the requirements to solve this problem.

Star Citizen is a great example of this, the game can't be played with HDD's, it stutters and locks up. Even an SSD with R/W speeds around 300MB/s completely removes this problem and those worlds and universe are basically limitless.
 
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