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[Schweinehund]

No surprise, but wouldn't it be more affordable for studios to push for faster frame rates instead of impressive visuals? What I'm trying to get at it is say something like a WoW approach where they focus on artstyle and less on tons of particles/high polycount models/all the good stuff that would require extra time/artists?

I'm good with 60 fps action/fps/racing games, 30 fps rpgs and others.

 

[waypoetic]

Mr Cormack talks alot. Michael Pachter talks alot too.

 

[FyreWulff]

This will happen no matter how much power developers have available. Why force 60fps on every game when you can push more graphical complexity when you have twice as much time to create the final frame?

 

[UrbanRats]

I think it'll be even easier for fighting games to achieve 60fps next gen.I dunno what are 3d/2.5d fighters going to put in.. particle effects? ultra realism? I think the genre that will see the biggest leap next gen is racing games.

Well, higher poly count for actors and backgrounds, better animations and collisions, physics on all clothing and hair, detructible environments, and as you said particle effects, better shaders, higher res textures, better AA and all that jazz.
But i'd say that, regardless, a better framrate should be the priority there.

Mr Cormack talks alot. Michael Pachter talks alot too.

One of the two, does that out of his ass.

 

[Acquiescence]

Erhm, ok? That's your problem, objectively speaking 60 fps made Rage (regardless if incrementally ) a better game. Now whether or not you still find the game trash it has nothing to do whatsoever with the discussion at hand.

It is my problem; I never said otherwise. And I think it's relevant to the discussion, seeing as how the comment was made by a John Carmack, whom I personally believe should be more concerned about making sure a game that is good before complaining about what the trend of framerates per second next-gen will be.

We get it, you didn't like Rage.

Because I bang on about the game at every possible opportunity. Oh wait, I haven't actually spoken of it since hmmm... before it even came out.

Yeah we're discussing the need for 60fps, and its priority for nextgen.
I don't see how your rant about Rage is even related to this.

One game you didn't like (for reasons completely unrelated to framerats) had 60fps, therefore... ?

If you believe mine was a "rant", then your definition of the word is somewhat skewed. Rage is related because John Carmack is a director of id Software, the team who made the game. It was a 60fps game, and it was averageness incarnate. Some games are too far gone for the framerate to matter anymore, and I just found it amusing that he's expressing disappointment at an industry that will continue to lean towards graphical prowess at the casualty of fps when really the developer hasn't been all that well represented this gen.

As long as Fighting Games are still 60FPS, I couldn't care less.

This. Good fighting games.

 

[Randdalf]

It is my problem; I never said otherwise. And I think it's relevant to the discussion, seeing as how the comment was made by a John Carmack, whom I personally believe should be more concerned about making sure a game that is good before complaining about what the trend of framerates per second next-gen will be.

He's ID's technical director, not a game designer. He may have some influence, but ultimately his main interests and responsibilities lie in creating the engine, in which he's done a fantastic job.

 

[Acquiescence]

He's ID's technical director, not a game designer. He may have some influence, but ultimately his main interests and responsibilities lie in creating the engine, in which he's done a fantastic job.

Ah okay, fair enough. I always saw him as the main bigwig of id, but I was ignorant to what his official role is. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[UrbanRats]

If you believe mine was a "rant", then your definition of the word is somewhat skewed. Rage is related because John Carmack is a director of id Software, the team who made the game. It was a 60fps game, and it was averageness incarnate. Some games are too far gone for the framerate to matter anymore, and I just found it amusing that he's expressing disappointment at an industry that will continue to lean towards graphical prowess at the casualty of fps when really the developer hasn't been all that well represented this gen.

Fine, call it a pointless jab then.
The gamedesign problems Rage might or might not have had, have really nothing to do with the implementation of 60fps in games, since they weren't really related to it.
And the same goes for Carmack's statement, since he's not really a game designer, as much as a technical director and engine programmer, for the game.
Now if you're saying that the problems of Rage were gameplay related, the 60fps did nothing but good, does that mean that 60fps alone can completely save a game? No one ever said that, not even Carmack.. but they certainly were not a detriment to it.

So again, comes off as a really pointless jab.

 

[Eusis]

He's ID's technical director, not a game designer. He may have some influence, but ultimately his main interests and responsibilities lie in creating the engine, in which he's done a fantastic job.

Which is also why it's a false equivalence to bring up Michael Pachter; hardware's set in stone and you can easily deduce how it'll function, whereas it's extremely hard to be even remotely accurate on what people will go for, let alone fully accurate. Plus I imagine John Carmack has more inside information, both on hardware specs and what other developers will want to do, and even without those I imagine it's much easier to predict what most developers will do than most consumers, being a much narrower group.

 

[Lancehead]

Mr Cormack talks alot. Michael Pachter talks alot too.

Mr Carmack programmes rockets. Michael Pachter, um, talks a lot again.

 

[i-Lo]

Who didn't see this coming from a mile away? Who?

 

[Melchiah]

Even more a shame given studio liverpool are gone. One of the true 60fps devs.

Gone? I thought many of the key staff were integrated into Evolution.

 

[KageMaru]

I can't wait until we have a dev tweeting that we should expect 720p as well. =P

Who didn't see this coming from a mile away? Who?

I think there are plenty of people who assume or hope that framerates will improve on average with more power.

 

[i-Lo]

I can't wait until we have a dev tweeting that we should expect 720p as well. =P



I think there are plenty of people who assume or hope that framerates will improve on average with more power.

Do you remember how I got berated for claiming that by the end of the next gen we most likely will going back to 720p@30fps for "maximum prettiness"?

Personally, I think we'll see a lot of games with dynamic resolution. As for fps, if it's locked at 30fps, then I am okay with it.

 

[hwalker84]

Breaking news: Water is wet

 

[Eusis]

I think there are plenty of people who assume or hope that framerates will improve on average with more power.

Honestly, it's not inherently untrue either. PS1/N64/Saturn games generally had an awful framerate, DC/PS2/GC/Xbox jumped way up, and I think part of why this generation stayed the same or started dipping was because of the resolution jump. Next generation, well, I guess it depends on how much more taxing 1080p is.

 

[jett]

It's too bad so few developers care about 60fps. It's honestly the way to play a video game, it should definitely be the standard and anything below it mocked and insulted. Too bad we don't live in this reality.

 

[Valnen]

I can live with 30 FPS in most games (not all) IF I get 1080p. 1080p should be mandatory next gen.

 

[NemesisPrime]

My next-gen games will still target 30 fps

Fixed?

 

[Phonomezer]

Fixed?

But Rage is 60fps on consoles and looks damn good.

 

[Eusis]

I can live with 30 FPS in most games (not all) IF I get 1080p. 1080p should be mandatory next gen.

Game by game, but I really don't like it in racers, fighters, or 2D platformers. Some games really do need to prioritize 60 FPS over all else visually.

 

[Rollo Lawson]

I don't even care.

 

[jett]

Game by game, but I really don't like it in racers, fighters, or 2D platformers. Some games really do need to prioritize 60 FPS over all else visually.

 

[plagiarize]

why are people still holding out hope for 1080p? Devs aren't going to stop sacrificing framerate for shinier graphics, but they're all of a sudden going to stop sacrificing resolution for shinier graphics... why?

I'm sure we'll see less sub 720p games. I'm sure we'll see more native 1080p games. But there is no way that native 1080p is even going to be approach becoming standard.

 

[Tenck]

the problem with this is that at this rate 120fps will never be standard

125 FPS like Quake Live or bust.

 

[Krauser Kat]

Game by game, but I really don't like it in racers, fighters, or 2D platformers. Some games really do need to prioritize 60 FPS over all else visually.

.. this has to be a troll post.

 

[Valnen]

Game by game, but I really don't like it in racers, fighters, or 2D platformers. Some games really do need to prioritize 60 FPS over all else visually.

I don't really play racers, but yes, for those other genres 60 FPS is needed, as well as fast action games like Devil May Cry. However, for next gen, I would still expect such titles to be 1080p. If they aren't, they aren't designing the game right. DMC4 is 60 FPS and looks incredible, there is NO excuse to not be able to pull that off on next gen hardware.

But for things like RPG's, non competitive shooters, open world games, slower paced action titles...and a lot more I can't really think of right off hand don't really need 60 FPS.

 

[Phonomezer]

Sonic Generations at 60fps would have been nice.

 

[Mastperf]

There's still the possibility that we'll see more 60fps games than we did this gen. Cod's been hugely successful and surely they've taken notice. It's easier to target 60fps from the start and build around it with a new franchise rather than to try to get 60fps on something designed for 30.

 

[plagiarize]

I don't really play racers, but yes, for those other genres 60 FPS is needed, as well as fast action games like Devil May Cry. However, for next gen, I would still expect such titles to be 1080p. If they aren't, they aren't designing the game right. DMC4 is 60 FPS and looks incredible, there is NO excuse to not be able to pull that off on next gen hardware.

But for things like RPG's, non competitive shooters, open world games, slower paced action titles...and a lot more I can't really think of right off hand don't really need 60 FPS.

and why would they need to be 1080p? the same logic that leads them not to target 60 FPS is going to lead a lot of devs not to target 1080p no?

Sonic Generations at 60fps would have been nice.

it IS nice. the PC version runs at 60 fps and I wouldn't want to play it at any less.

 

[Valnen]

and why would they need to be 1080p? the same logic that leads them not to target 60 FPS is going to lead a lot of devs not to target 1080p no?

Because pretty much every display is 1080p these days, and when you're not running a game at native res it looks like a blurry mess.

 

[diamount]

Unless you want to pay $1k+ consoles then it will always be that way.

 

[Eusis]

.. this has to be a troll post.

Did you misinterpret me? I meant I'd rather not have 30 FPS in those games and that they should nail 60 FPS first and foremost when it comes to visuals, on a technical level anyway.

I don't really play racers, but yes, for those other genres 60 FPS is needed, as well as fast action games like Devil May Cry. However, for next gen, I would still expect such titles to be 1080p. If they aren't, they aren't designing the game right. DMC4 is 60 FPS and looks incredible, there is NO excuse to not be able to pull that off on next gen hardware.

But for things like RPG's, non competitive shooters, open world games, slower paced action titles...and a lot more I can't really think of right off hand don't really need 60 FPS.

Given how Wipeout HD was 1080p... yeah, I kind of expect most of those games are going to be 1080p/60fps. Though given some of the people at Capcom I do wonder if they'd deliberately avoid 60 for Devil May Cry anyway. But, yeah, there are quite a few games that don't NEED to be 60 at all, though it can be nice. That's probably why it's not too big of a deal to me, so long as it's a stable 30 FPS it's fine.

As for game resolutions: unless the leap is VERY small I'm somewhat confident 1080p will be like 720p this generation: many games will be at 1080p, some will be in between the two depending on what it's going for visually, and a rare few MAY drop below 720p, but hopefully we just see something like 1366x768 at an extreme, so it's STILL a bit above 720p. Similar to how nothing dropped below 480p this gen but came extremely close.

 

[AuthenticM]

As long as the game is running at 1080p, I won't mind 30fps. But if the game is in 720p, it better fucking be running in 60fps.

 

[sublimit]

Not surprising.
The power will be used to make the games look even more like movies.

 

[plagiarize]

Because pretty much every display is 1080p these days, and when you're not running a game at native res it looks like a blurry mess.

it depends on how you're doing it, and I doubt most TVs in peoples living rooms are 1080p yet. you'll probably see a lot more scaling only in one direction (like you see on some PS3 games). GT5 doesn't look like true 1080p (because it's not) but it certainly isn't a 'blurry mess' no?

until there's any obvious sign of people buying games steering clear of games that aren't native 1080p, only devs that care about the resolution will aim for it. if you're expecting even a large minority of games to be native 1080p, you will be disappointed. I guarantee it.

 

[zoukka]

There are people in the world who don't notice the difference between 30 and 60 frames per second... so yeah. They'll keep making 'em forever.

 

[plagiarize]

There are people in the world who don't notice the difference between 30 and 60 frames per second... so yeah. They'll keep making 'em forever.

I presume you're talking about blind people.

 

[zoukka]

I presume you're talking about blind people.

Normal, average people.

 

[omonimo]

I presume you're talking about blind people.

No he talking of normal people, not nerd.

 

[mxgt]

Normal, average people.

I'm sure they notice, they just don't care

 

[diamount]

Normal, average people.

Ludicrous. Everyone seems to see a difference with watching The Hobbit at 48 fps, which is essentially the same as it's double the framerate.

 

[omonimo]

I'm sure they notice, they just don't care

I take my personal experience how example, when I don't know there were 30 fps & 60 fps games, I don't noticed it.

 

[zoukka]

Well obviously people know the difference if they are shown two games side by side with different framerate, bu even in GAF you see so many posts saying they don't care/notice the difference and this is a gaming enthusiast forum. Some even thought games like GoW3, Vanquish etc were 60fps.

Not think about the people who know zero about games and the tech behing them.

 

[plagiarize]

I'm sure they notice, they just don't care

yep. anyone with functioning eyes can see that there's a difference, whether they care or not.

 

[Betta Lines]

Even more a shame given studio liverpool are gone. One of the true 60fps devs.

They managed to make one 60fps game that still had frame drops. The promised 60fps Wipeout on Vita became 30fps (also with frame drops), the PSP Wipeouts were 30fps or less, and all the older Wipeouts were also 30fps or less.

Shame to see them go but 'true 60fps devs'? Hardly.

 

[omonimo]

yep. anyone with functioning eyes can see that there's a difference, whether they care or not.

It's not really true, & in this forum we have a lot of example.

 

[i-Lo]

I'm sure they notice, they just don't care

Pretty much this. For me (and I suppose for a large majority) 30fps was never an issue or detrimental to the gameplay.

 

[Respawn]

Carmacks tweets are a lot like his recent games, they break no new ground.

OUCH! Shots fired.

 

[plagiarize]

It's not really true, & in this forum we have a lot of example.

it is true, but it isn't really the important point. the important point is that most people don't care. most people don't care about native 1080p either.

which sucks for those of us that care about both, but what're you going to do.