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John Carmack on PS4 vs. Xbox One Specs: They're 'Very Close'

Im almost positive it was Carmack that said multicore cpus were overrated...

Just because the guy is a genius doesn't mean he has to like the harder choice.

Multi core cpus didn't came to fruition because it's better to achieve performance than single core processors. Its a less optimum solution (performance wise) that's only used because the traditional performance scaling of single core processors have hit a physical wall.

But, ignoring physical limitations, performance scaling with a single cpu was simpler for the ones who have to develop and produce the chip, and for those who have to program for the thing.

And where is the eSRAM getting its data?

Hint: not magic

From the same places the ddr3 is, or from ddr3, or even from itself.

Do you think that the source of esram data is going to be a problem?

eSRAM is small (just 32MB), in big 3D scenes (more like every scene) GPU will have to access to DDR3.

In any game that makes at least a meaningful attempt of using the xbone strengths the gpu will access both, for a lots of tasks.

The esram is small, but the gpu has hardware dedicated to get only the pixels that are going to be applied in the scene of a texture and copy those to a virtual texture (a virtual texture capable of texturing 1080p scene with a unique texel for every pixel doesn't height much more than a few megs, and even that virtual texture can be split on both pools)... And the same can be applied to pretty much any buffer the gpu writes or read.

Didnt he say the same exact thing about the PS3/360?

IIRC he said Ps3 had more theoretical performance, but in real world tests/games the 360 would outperform it.
 
Carmack saying "I'd love to make a 3DS game"

But than saying he has no time. . FUCK YOU CARMACK. Stop developing rockets.

Like you're the president of a development company. Stop letting Zenimax bully you.
 

see5harp

Member
Carmack saying "I'd love to make a 3DS game"

But than saying he has no time. . FUCK YOU CARMACK. Stop developing rockets.

He didn't just say time, he said it would be silly based on the install bases of both 3DS and Vita. He directly mentioned issues on the "production side" indicating that Zenimax probably wouldn't even fund such a project.
 

Chobel

Member
The esram is small, but the gpu has hardware dedicated to get only the pixels that are going to be applied in the scene of a texture and copy those to a virtual texture (a virtual texture capable of texturing 1080p scene with a unique texel for every pixel doesn't height much more than a few megs, and even that virtual texture can be split on both pools)... And the same can be applied to pretty much any buffer the gpu writes or read.

I don't understand the bolded part.
 

Pistolero

Member
The esram is small, but the gpu has hardware dedicated to get only the pixels that are going to be applied in the scene of a texture and copy those to a virtual texture (a virtual texture capable of texturing 1080p scene with a unique texel for every pixel doesn't height much more than a few megs, and even that virtual texture can be split on both pools)... And the same can be applied to pretty much any buffer the gpu writes or read.

Can you think of scenarios where the X-One would outperform the PS4? Honest question...
I'm asking it because I read somewhere that MS machine could have the upper hand in post-processing.
 

Krilekk

Banned
He didn't just say time, he said it would be silly based on the install bases of both 3DS and Vita. He directly mentioned issues on the "production side" indicating that Zenimax probably wouldn't even fund such a project.

He said he would like to bring Doom BFG to Wii U and Vita but that the publishing side would not allow it due to install bases.
 

ekim

Member
Can you think of scenarios where the X-One would outperform the PS4? Honest question...
I'm asking it because I read somewhere that MS machine could have the upper hand in post-processing.

afaik the eSRAM could be exclusively used to get free 2xMSAA/4xMSAA.
 

IN&OUT

Banned
I'm close to my laptop in my room. The moon is close to earth in the solar system.

Carmack is smart enough to give such vague answer, but yet again he clearly said that he didn't do any benchmarks and his answer would be meaningless at this stage.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
One other different point:

He basically endorsed things like PS Move as superior to dual analog for shooters/fps.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Full speed 4xMSAA is noted in the official Durango GPU slides from MS...

edit: if I remember that correctly.

'full speed 4xmsaa' != 'free'

All that's saying is there'd be enough bandwidth or rops to do that. But it'll cost you bandwidth and fillrate etc.
 

ekim

Member
Can you do that for high end games?

The only thing that matters is the pixelcount. You basically render to the eSRAM - so it doesn't matter what kind of game is played.
Note that I'm not that much into that stuff and could be wrong :eek:
 

ekim

Member
not free. and it can't be done in PS4 or what? AFAIK GPU is the for responsible MSAA.

Well you have to render your stuff somewhere. On the PS4 obviously to the GDDR5 Ram. I meant free in the terms of, you don't have to touch the DDR3 bandwidth.
 

Salsa

Member
zero button mouse comment is amazing

I love Carmack so much

dat nervous mumble whenever there's clapping
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
?

GPUs don't hold data. I think what you mean is the GPU can read-process-write data that is already on the the eSRAM. Getting any data to the eSRAM means transferring it from the DDR3. Since 32MB is 0.04% of the 8GB it will be moving data on and off the eSRAM continuously. I ultimately think this is the achellis heel of the system.

Yes. That's what I mean.

This diagram makes it fairly clear.

67fm1wz.jpg
 

ekim

Member
?

GPUs don't hold data. I think what you mean is the GPU can read-process-write data that is already on the the eSRAM. Getting any data to the eSRAM means transferring it from the DDR3. Since 32MB is 0.04% of the 8GB it will be moving data on and off the eSRAM continuously. I ultimately think this is the achellis heel of the system.

The GPU does hold data (Caches) and you can render to the eSRAM.

edit: you can also directly feed the GPU from the DDR3 Ram without going through the eSRAM.
 

LAA

Member
I wish some dev will just come out with the truth already and talk about it in detail.
Why do devs have to speak carefully so people who decided to buy a certain console arent upset?
They either should have done their homework on the matter or they bought it for reasons that make sense to them, so a dev saying anything shouldnt affect their choice. In fact, devs are kinda doing us a disservice by not saying, so customers arent able to make an informed decision. (Well disservice is the wrong word as they dont OWE us that, but along those lines I suppose...)
No-one even has an Xbox One/PS4 yet, I dont see the need in sugar coating everything, and after all the negativity the Xbox One has got, I dont really think a dev saying, which lets face it, we all think the same anyway, PS4 has the edge against the Xbox One power wise, is really going to put people off.

Seriously if it a dev comes out and actually says the PS4 is weaker, I wouldnt even mind, (Well I would a little honestly ;) ), but I know the graphical capabilities arent the only reason I want a PS4. I want it for its exclusives, for the 3rd party games, for KH3!! (On both I know, but I still see PS4 as the "traditional platform for KH", same as MGS to me weirdly), and simply because I believe Sony have the right attitude for next gen atm, and MS just seems to be changing everything to match Sony's answers, so Sony must have got something right.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
I really have trouble believing in this coming from him. Link please?

Well, he doesn't say it's perfect, but it sounds like if they could bring the latency down on something like that, he'd consider it roundly superior. As is he may even prefer it because he seems to really value direct or proportionately mapped motion...he really doesn't like the 'nudge nudge nudge' of analog stick targeting.

Here's the stuff he says about input:

On the input side of things...talking about touch, it is so amazingly natural, it is the most natural computer input we’ve ever had, watching kids interact with this is really remarkable. And to think we had touchscreens, we had light pens and all that for so many years, and it was only until the smartphone, and eventually the tablet that it’s really made its mark. And it’s interesting to wonder how many technologies could be like that, where they’re niche things right now, but five years from now they’re going to be ubiquitous and kind of the cornerstone of the way we interact with things.

Mouse and keyboard have, are, the most precise current things to be interacting with. You’ve got the direct relative motion of the mouse - it’s not direct motion because you’re moving your hand [down there] and and interacting with something there [on the screen], but it’s still highly precise.

Game controllers are still, unfortunately, a really bad interface for certain types of things, because they’re not direct interaction. In the old days a game pad for a Super Nintendo, a Nintendo gamepad, was actually not an unoptimal interface because all you did was ‘Mario go right’, ‘Mario go left’. It’s a binary interface, the button was completely reasonable for this. It’s only when we started to do turning on game controllers and bringing analog onto it that it became a really really bad thing. I mean, it’s better than nothing, it’s better than binary having an analog on it, but it’s not good. You’re using this coarse, low precision muscle in your thumb and time integrating, and you watch people a lot of times playing games and they’re even pulse modulating with their thumb, they’re trying to get the exact analog position, wait the right amount of time, you know it’s like ‘snap snap snap’ [gesturing thumb wag], trying to kind of bump your way into the right position. It’s just not good, but it’s what we’ve got to live with.

I think some of the controllers where you start to see sparks of betterness - I think the PS Move, it’s still got a sort of latent, laggy interface to it, but at least you’re moving something and you’ve got buttons. I think the Razr Hydra, with the two tracked things...I think it’s unfortunate that it’s got wires and doesn’t have any feedback inside it... but I think something like that is where we’ll wind up, where you’ve got sort of the split thing, two hands, that can be moved and tracked independently while still having all the buttons to do your intentional actions on it. I think things will migrate that way usefully.

And some of the other things, like the PS Move gun controller, where you’ve got a tracked gun with a Wii Move [?! ;)] and a thumbstick on the end of it, things like that will be really exciting, will be a good interface for things. If you have that in a virtual reality environment, it’ll be exactly what you want.
 

badb0y

Member
Devs do not know all the details yet.

Yes, they do....

They won't come out and say one is better then the other outright, it's not good for business and Sony and Microsoft's first party devs will say their console is better.

Luckily, we have all the specs and anyone with a proper functioning brain can deduce which one is superior.
 

zhorkat

Member
Well, he doesn't say it's perfect, but it sounds like if they could bring the latency down on something like that, he'd consider it roundly superior. As is he may even prefer it because he seems to really value direct or proportionately mapped motion...he really doesn't like the 'nudge nudge nudge' of analog stick targeting.

Here's the stuff he says about input:

Wii Move plus Nunchuk confirmed for best controller.
 
Kinect1 yeah
Kinect2, not so much.

It is vastly improved from previous, the sensitivity, more powerful sensors and the higher transfer speed does make quite the difference.

I argue that Carmack has not tested Kinect2 yet.. ohh sorry.. he has not "benchmarked" it yet..

And have you actually used it to say this? It's all marketing BS AFAIC, with Kinect I was supposed to talk to AI characters on screen.. Meh.
 

Sweep14

Member
Don't know if this has been discussed in the thread but he said that the specs were close. Notice that he didn't talk of performance
 

Maximilian E.

AKA MS-Evangelist
And have you actually used it to say this? It's all marketing BS AFAIC, with Kinect I was supposed to talk to AI characters on screen.. Meh.

It is getting ridiculous that everything with Xbox One is being shot down..
But what are the facts here:
1. Kinect2 is superior technically to Kinect1
2. Transfer speeds from kinect2 to Xbox One is far greater than what Kinect1 had to 360.

One of the things MS worked with is to cut down latency as much as possible.
Granted, I dont know if its proper 1:1 but Kinect2 reacts much faster than kinect1, this is a given.

But yeah, Carmack has not benchmarked anything so.. :)
 

Pug

Member
Don't know if this has been discussed in the thread but he said that the specs were close. Notice that he didn't talk of performance

Seriously let it go, why just not wait until the games come out then have a pissing match about pixels and god knows what?
 

Pug

Member
Yes, they do....

They won't come out and say one is better then the other outright, it's not good for business and Sony and Microsoft's first party devs will say their console is better.

Luckily, we have all the specs and anyone with a proper functioning brain can deduce which one is superior.

You most certainty don't have all the specs, you have an overview of both and thats about it.
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Seriously let it go, why just not wait until the games come out then have a pissing match about pixels and god knows what?

I very much look forward to this pissing match.
 
i know a lot of people have spent hours and hours debating tech specs and maybe you would feel that you had wasted your time, but if xbox one and ps4 were close (as close as 360 and ps3 or closer) would it make a difference to you and your decision to buy or not? or does the knowledge just help you feel confident in your purchase?
 

velociraptor

Junior Member
i know a lot of people have spent hours and hours debating tech specs and maybe you would feel that you had wasted your time, but if xbox one and ps4 were close (as close as 360 and ps3 or closer) would it make a difference to you and your decision to buy or not? or does the knowledge just help you feel confident in your purchase?
How can they be remotely close when one console has a 1.84TF GPU while the other has a 1.23TF GPU?
 
i know a lot of people have spent hours and hours debating tech specs and maybe you would feel that you had wasted your time, but if xbox one and ps4 were close (as close as 360 and ps3 or closer) would it make a difference to you and your decision to buy or not? or does the knowledge just help you feel confident in your purchase?
It is just forum ammo I think
 
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