You aren't reasoning with the racist, you're providing a reasonable argument to everyone else watching.
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JonTron (youtuber) speaks against demographic "invasion" of America by nonwhites
- Thread starter Cerium
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You aren't reasoning with the racist, you're providing a reasonable argument to everyone else watching.
I'm pretty sure they weren't implying that the kid gloves need to come on. I'd say that it's naive to think that the Destiny stream did little more to Jon than expose him for the racist twat that he is. To both sides.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
Not sure whether this fits better in the "separating art from artist thread" or here but to me it's not about "reconciling" the art with the artist in an absolute sense, it's all relative.
Sometimes the art is superior enough and the transgressions minor enough that you do reconcile it, and you still admire the art and the artist despite his or her flaws.
Sometimes the artist is reprehensible but the art is so great that you just have to separate them, acknowledging the greatness of the art while condemning the artist.
And sometimes the artist is reprehensible and the art is no great shakes so who gives a fuck. In this case the art is a series of goofy, mildly entertaining video game YouTube videos made by a moron who's gone full-blown racist, so the whole thing is easy to toss into the trash with a gentle nudge.
Sometimes the art is superior enough and the transgressions minor enough that you do reconcile it, and you still admire the art and the artist despite his or her flaws.
Sometimes the artist is reprehensible but the art is so great that you just have to separate them, acknowledging the greatness of the art while condemning the artist.
And sometimes the artist is reprehensible and the art is no great shakes so who gives a fuck. In this case the art is a series of goofy, mildly entertaining video game YouTube videos made by a moron who's gone full-blown racist, so the whole thing is easy to toss into the trash with a gentle nudge.
SerTapTap
Member
Just got yelled at by some idiot, ignoring all my points, on twitter parroting that exactly. Totally ignoring he got exactly that. They also insisted the whole "america for whites" wasn't "white supremacy".
When did "moderates" start raising the bar for "racism" to "he didn't commit genocide, he's not a nazi" (again, literally the exact point someone just made to me on twitter).
freeofgreed
Member
Lol wth dude?
I think they should since he has a huge reach. Ignoring the far right is preciously why they've gotten so strong worldwide this past year. You underestimate just how impressionable his audience is and how much of an impact all of this will have on them. It's not just Jon Tron either, it seems like a lot of the big youtubers in the gaming community have been outing themselves as shit heads as well.
If you're argument is that you like his work regardless of his views that's one thing. But I don't see how you can argue that people should ignore/let his views slide just because it doesn't impact his work. Shit like this absolutely should be called out, idc if it's a celebrity or just some random dude.
If a friend or someone you knew said stuff like that would you let it slide just ebcause they don't have a big reach?
The fact that often seems forgotten is that even Europe was heavily influenced by non-European cultures over the centuries, albeit still embracing its own values and adapting rather than letting itself be replaced.
JonTron is not totally wrong though, in the sense that in modern society it's only expected for western culture to accept its place being diluted or influenced, whereas Japan outright refusing to entertain the notion is acceptable. I think it's largely due to our culture becoming so liberal and soft that it will fall in its own sword before hurting some feelings. Whether that is good or bad is completely subjective though.
JonTron is not totally wrong though, in the sense that in modern society it's only expected for western culture to accept its place being diluted or influenced, whereas Japan outright refusing to entertain the notion is acceptable. I think it's largely due to our culture becoming so liberal and soft that it will fall in its own sword before hurting some feelings. Whether that is good or bad is completely subjective though.
Deactivision
Member
Can we get a running list of these scumbag youtube personalities? As a parent of a gaming-video addicted child I have been trying my best to keep up with events and monitor my kid's usage, but I am always expecting something to slip through the cracks. It would be helpful to know which YTers have come down on the gross side of the GamerGate controversy, for example, and I quite frankly have no idea where to find that kind of information.
He and I talk a lot about what's appropriate and he has internalized a fine radar, but he's getting older and more likely to start testing the boundaries. Fortunately he has never been a fan of JonTron or PewDiePie, but he does like Peanut Butter Gamer a lot, who I see is a member of the same 'network' as JonTron. Not that I want to consider PBG guilty by association as I understand he is already making some efforts to distance himself from JonTron. Hopefully that's not just lip service.
Also, YouTube needs to provide a means to block specific channels. As far as I can tell there isn't a means to do that (but someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
He and I talk a lot about what's appropriate and he has internalized a fine radar, but he's getting older and more likely to start testing the boundaries. Fortunately he has never been a fan of JonTron or PewDiePie, but he does like Peanut Butter Gamer a lot, who I see is a member of the same 'network' as JonTron. Not that I want to consider PBG guilty by association as I understand he is already making some efforts to distance himself from JonTron. Hopefully that's not just lip service.
Also, YouTube needs to provide a means to block specific channels. As far as I can tell there isn't a means to do that (but someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
I feel like you can provide arguments against racism without giving racists a platform.
Gotdatmoney
Member
The stream wasnt about changing minds. It was about debating to see A) whose argument was more coherent and B) to figure out what their beliefs were. It wasnt meant to be transformative.
The fact John came out as straight racist is just bonus. But if a racist is bold enough to state their views then hold them to the fire and see if they can take the heat. These views are not valid.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
I agree with that. I've just seen some arguments in this thread from people trying to suggest that we can reason with him and make him change his beliefs. Who gives a crap if he changes his beliefs or not? It would be better for him as a person but it won't stop what he has said so far from being idiotic and flat out wrong. People are attacking him because he's a racist douche in a prominent position spewing racist bullshit. People have every right to reject him and call him out.
BrutishMrFish
Member
That's a whole lot of bullshit. Our culture is not being diluted or replaced.
JonTron is totally wrong, and so are you.
this is such tripe (as is your analysis about the shifting cultural appropriation in Europe and that they got to "adapt rather than be replaced." Seriously no such thing as "European culture" in the sense you're pushing it, and whatever you'd call that is completely indistinguishable from cultural landscape across Europe only 200 years ago, let along 500 or 1000. Stahp.)
Similarly, there is -plenty- of criticism of the xenophobia of Japan, and there is also great debate about the nature of their problem considering their gargantuan aging and birthrate problem. So your notion on even the surrounding debate about how acceptable it is in Japan is a farce.
JonTron's ideology is abhorrent, racist trash by an anti-intellectual nutjob, and this post of yours makes you suspect too.
AtomicShroom
Member
Anyone care to put that in context for me please? English is not my first language, so I don't get what's supposed to be offensive?
Passive-aggressive posts like this are doing nothing for progress. Racism is a byproduct of ignorance. Without the intellectual dismantling of what they believe with truth and fact every generation will be fighting the same battles over and over again. At this point, people are just screaming past each other and the only this it's serving is their ego.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
The word being censored is "nigger."
These western areas were pretty much large scaled robberies though. What makes it worse is that it was under a false claim of peace.
Deactivision
Member
Nice, thanks. That looks like a good start.
SerTapTap
Member
You can block channels but it only seems to be for comments on your videos/streams. Didn't help me from getting that "RACIST MARIO" recommended video for like a full month.
It's good to know people who post from alternate realities!
In our world, USA's most famous exports is stuffs like movies, music, games, cars even.
They impose it to other countries at the expense of smaller countries that cannot have a working movie industry for example.
Cultural norms of the US are being spread far and wide all over the world but they're the one being dilluted.
And as far as Europe goes, I can speak for France and say that it is also a load of BS.
Regional identities have been crushed early XXth century and are actually the biggest threat to French identity these days (they're actively bombing authority figures after all).
There is only 1 identity that French's education system is pushing and it's doing its best to make sure no other identity is even referrenced.
Are we at your workplace or neogaf?
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
God, you watch one video tagged "humor" or "animation" and you get fucking Family Guy videos recommended in your feed nonstop. I keep blocking them but there seem to be an endless number of channels uploading that show.
According to this sort of "ideology," only if those immigrants have the correct skin color, like Albert Einstein. Or if Albert Einstein was African or Middle Eastern, then he would be "one of the good ones" and everyone else with his skin color simply isn't living up to him.
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
What the fuck is the point of posts like these?
He's making fun of my post where I said most normies don't give a shit about e-celebs
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Even more so because the argument goes down to create a bullshit race culture. Culture is a regional thing has nothing to do with race. Now immigration can influnce but its additive not subtracted. Just because Britains eat curry now doesnt mean they had to give up another food for it. That thought process is plain silly(and racist).
AtomicShroom
Member
OHHHHHHHhhhh... I hadn't even realized they were censoring a word there. I thought the goofy sound was to indicate that "I put a hole in that" was somehow inappropriate. Geez.
Thanks Triggerhappytel
Member
If you have literally nothing to add why even bother commenting? This man has an outreach to millions of people, so none of this is insignificant.
Looks like there is way to do it but it's not native to YouTube and you need to mess with your browser configuration:
https://www.maketecheasier.com/block-youtube-channels/
And also just so that we're clear.
Finland culture is more foreign to a French guy than Algerian culture.
Grouping European culture (let alone the west) as a single entity is grade AAA Bullshit (yes S&P rated them that high).
You all aren't getting in on French cuisine that easily.
Finland culture is more foreign to a French guy than Algerian culture.
Grouping European culture (let alone the west) as a single entity is grade AAA Bullshit (yes S&P rated them that high).
You all aren't getting in on French cuisine that easily.
I dunno man, Japan uses a lot of international products sure, but they're very VERY insular when it comes to their culture and racial relations. A lot of asia is, but I've found Japan and Taiwan is the "worst"
The problem is that there's a thin line between 'intellectual dismantling' and 'normalizing'. We can debate multiculturalism, gender issues, etc. The problem is that it feels that one side brings facts, the other side, opinion.
Even though I am firmly not in the camp of anti-immigration, gender/sexuality bias...etc, I feel I could formulate at least a rational argument on why those views might have some points (perhaps its my years of an english major, lol). But what we end up happening is people JonTron pulling out facts out of his ass as valid and his followers lap it up. On top of if someone doesn't do the critical thinking it seems right even though the other party is calmly bringing up facts
And that means US culture isn't being spread worldwide?
Is the world only made of US, Westasia and Japan now?
Doesn't work and never will.
Only extreme measures are effective. Our ancestors fought a world wide war to stop this shit, and it looks like there will be another one due soon enough because of this "we need to engage with them" twaddle.
Did you not see the video with Destiny? He didn't budge one bit - worse still his followers actually think he "won".
The only way to progress is to smash this ignorance.
I hope his life is permanently destroyed as a result of this.
I want to precede my question with the context that I'm not agreeing with Jon or anyone referenced to in the OP. It's a poor sight to see someone I used to enjoy watching deploy such horrid ideas but I have to ask:
Why exactly is idea of 'founding stock' idea wrong? Why is it wrong to 'protect' a culture from immigration from places that typically either don't agree or have 'contempt' for it? Is it the implication that only the 'founding' stock could produce a country like the USA? Is it the implication that immigrants either dilute or corrupt a culture like the USA? Am I leading the question by saying?
Generally, I understand this is a bad way to think and that we should be inclusive to those who want to come and also be inclusive. But I believe we should be protective against those who'd exclude for whatever reason.
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is: "Why do I think this is wrong?"
If anyone can help me out. PM me or something. just to keep the topic on track.
Why exactly is idea of 'founding stock' idea wrong? Why is it wrong to 'protect' a culture from immigration from places that typically either don't agree or have 'contempt' for it? Is it the implication that only the 'founding' stock could produce a country like the USA? Is it the implication that immigrants either dilute or corrupt a culture like the USA? Am I leading the question by saying?
Generally, I understand this is a bad way to think and that we should be inclusive to those who want to come and also be inclusive. But I believe we should be protective against those who'd exclude for whatever reason.
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is: "Why do I think this is wrong?"
If anyone can help me out. PM me or something. just to keep the topic on track.
I've met very few who are victims of "ignorance". A lot I've met are either aware that they are pedlers of BS to stir racial hate, or view it almost religiously where facts literally don't matter. Now with the "alt-fact" thing going on which is basically giving morons the ability to consider something factually wrong as another option of being right, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who was innocently swept up in the current.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Hell US itself doesn't have a singular culture a person moving from Ohio to West Coast will experiance culture shock . The US is huge it's impossible to keep the entire country homogenized.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
Calling out a racist person is not "shouting past" them it's just calling it as it is. Racism isn't something that is up for debate. It's not my responsibility to educate ignorant racists. If they are too stupid to accept different cultures and ethnicities that's their problem. They should deal with the repercussions of their own stupidity. JonTron is now dealing with the backlash that his stupid racist comments have brought on him. He has two choices, he can either back down from his racist beliefs and realize that maybe he's wrong or he can double down on them and continue to fail. Racism is a stupid and wrong ideology and there's nothing to debate. You'd think after all the wars and deaths that racism has brought people would get into their heads by now that there isn't any room for racism in the modern world.
supermarioworldE
Banned
I've never found this asshole funny, and have only seen a handful of his videos, but I'm always glad to see the bigots show their true colors so I know who to avoid and not support.
Deactivision
Member
Thanks, I will look into this as well.
As a footnote/partial answer to my other question, I did find this list of pro-GG websites and YouTubers (apparently intended by this wiki to be perceived as a positive thing). I'm sure it's not comprehensive, and obviously doesn't include personalities who have other sorts of offensive viewpoints, but it's a start for concerned parents like me.
http://thisisvideogames.com/gamergatewiki/index.php?title=Support_List
Lil'DigiOp
Member
Go read a fucking book on the history of America and why it was created in such a fucked up manner.
You have a dumb ass question lol
Edit: Been on GAF since 2015 with 9 total fuckin posts. You cowards and your alts man
You have the same vacation days to start with so that certainly helps.
The country is as homogeneous as a country this size can be.
Heck you don't have secessionist movements trying to create its own nation so I'd say the USA is far more homogeneous than most EU countries even.
Woosh. That went right over my head...
This isn't really a fallacy though. Given a little time it is readily demonstrated as a thing that happens. In OT people have said this many times about themselves ("I'd post what I think but I don't want to get banned"). Meanwhile others have been outright provoked into saying what they really felt. And yet others come in with years old low post count alt-right accounts that only post in controversial topics. Then there are the people who post offsite in comment sections in links posted on gaf or places like the "neofag" communities (hate sites about neogaf) who all revolve around revealing themselves to be users/ former uses who cite their fears of banning or reciting the reasons why they got banned.
This isn't just a rhetorical device used to shut people down. There is enough precedent to make the accusation in certain situations like this one where JT's stances are clearly laid out. Honestly... condemning abject racism isn't that controversial a stance. This isn't the fence you want to chill on.
You think the intellectual arguments against racism haven't existed for literal centuries from abolitionists, freedom fighters, civil rights activists, writers and philosophers?
Racism is not just a byproduct of ignorance. It is a system and worldview built on an age-old conscious assumption of superiority, hence why people are "afraid of saying what they feel" and admire people who "tell it like it is." People know they're racist. They just don't like being shamed for it, hence why Jon didn't have the balls to be more open during those two hours of nonsense.
Simply put the USA was founded on 'polluting' a culture and for it to go against it's melting pot ideals is hypocrisy at its finest.
Bigger worldwide picture its an illogical idea that immigrants who face bias, discrimination, marginalization are suddenly going to 'take over a culture' when they can barely get the majority to treat them as equals. It's an imaginary boogieman; when the police are harassing you, jobs interviews are giving you the side eye from your name, people give you stares at a restaurant...somehow you're going to build enough agency and power to magically make a Nascar race have the crowd separated by sexes with women wearing burkas and alcohol banned? LOL.
I think this article may be worth taking a look at. As well as the 2006 article from Fred Hiatt that's linked within.
I didn't say that. I was referring to japan specifically because I lived there for a year.
East and South Asia have a much stronger cultural identity than a country like America, which is relatively new. It's obscenely stupid of Jontron or anyone to talk about "diluting" the country when it's so new anyway.
It's false equivalence, the rules apply differently to different countries. He's right that other countries are more insular, but that's because of their rich and hard to penetrate culture that has been cultivated for centuries.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Thank you for this.
The dumbfoundedness when JonTron tried to claim that Mexicans fled Mexico to make a new life in the USA only to get enough power to get states to secede to Mexico.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
We do occasionally get people trying that but it's can't really legally be done if I remember correctly. We are definitely no Belgium though.
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