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[Triggerhappytel]

The funny part is, JonTron got a friendly chat. Destiny gave him over an hour on stream to present his position and debate it without immediately telling him to fuck off.

And the best thing is that during that 80-ish minute conversation Jon was not able to offer a sensible and straightforward reason why the US should remain majority white, or why it not being so would be a problem - despite being asked several times by Destiny. Because there is no reason unless he goes all-in on the full-fat racism he came close to revealing a couple of times.

 

[Toxi]

Where I worked they have this thing called the "2 Minute Rule" meaning that your opponent is expected to make their point in 2 minutes or less, without being cut off, before you can state your opposition.

If anything Jon's going to doubledown on what he believes to be true because he didn't have the opportunity to express his points in a good way. He'll justify his loss of the debate as being shouted down at, instead of reflecting on the merit and truths of his beliefs.

JonTron had plenty of opportunity to express his points.

His points just happened to be incoherent Stormfront bullshit. I still have no clue what he was trying to say during the "gene pool" part, and it's not because Destiny didn't give him enough time to speak.

 

[APF]

People believe that Obama watched Trump through a microwave.

no that part was true tho

 

[eggandI]

I wonder if the people insisting on friendly discourse have messaged JonTron about his views yet to actually practice what they preach.

Or are they more concerned with tone policing and stanning for their boi regardless of his racism? Hmm.

It was exact same thing during the 60s. A huge percentage of people said MLK was "going about it the wrong way" or thay he was pushing too far too fast lol

 

[jay]

You could use the same argument/defense for any hate speech. There are obviously plenty of people that feel the same was as JonTron; many wear sheets. Just because a population of people believe something doesn't inherently give it value.

"Minorities are genetically inferior to whites" is false. Just because he believes it to be true does not mean that I or anyone else should respect that opinion.

You could use this argument to 'just ask questions' about the morality of cannibalism, incest, genocide, and really anything.

 

[Dr.Acula]

I think Total Biscuit is a great critic and reviewer, but wow, he keeps picking the wrong battles all the time.

(here was the link to the comments people are discussing)

 

[Darryl M R]

I don't know how anyone could say Destiny discussion with JonTron was disrespectful or condescending..

 

[Amir0x]

no that part was true tho

oh it's not #fakenews? i should have went to breitbart, shit.

 

[Nepenthe]

It was exact same thing during the 60s. A huge percentage of people said MLK was "going about it the wrong way" or thay he was pushing too far too fast lol

Exactly. Same shit, different day. Things really don't change and it's frustrating seeing people fall into the same traps.

 

[Amir0x]

I think Total Biscuit is a great critic and reviewer, but wow, he keeps picking the wrong battles all the time.

(here was the link to the comments people are discussing)

he's not picking the wrong battles. He is intentionally picking the battles that his shitbird nature wants him to, so he can signal he's not apart from this huge segment of his fanbase. It's money.

 

[Cloukyo]

White supremacy has always been serious. I can't believe you really think this 'doesn't make any difference'

Aside from a few buttheads on the internet how many people will take his words to heart?

Did you stop watching Mel Gibson movies after he outed himself, how about Charlie Sheen's undeniable sexism.

You can still watch Mad Max and enjoy it, you can still watch Two and a Half Men (if that's your cup of tea, I think its kinda crap but whatever). Both of them became a laughing stock after their scandal. Neither of their obscene views were worth taking seriously, and it didn't really marginalise the work they did.

 

[Captain Fish]

I hope people who are saying that Jon didn't change are conflating that with the concept that this debate video was a failure. I get that JonTron was evasive and won't ever change and that Total Biscuit made responses that seem to dodge the subject (to be honest I haven't listened to his responses or read the gizmodo article, as I think they are valueless compared to the actual debate VOD). Jon is a simpleton who got his feelings hurt and won't ever align with "leftist meanies," and TB is his friend and has an agenda against the media. I wouldn't expect any change from them.

However, lots of Jon's fans and others will see the VOD of the debate and get to see him completely fail to express his opinions cogently while saying outright bigoted things and they will be swayed by that. I've already seen it, and I've seen other people post it to their followers and get the appropriate response.

Even that Sky guy who was on afterwards who seems like a JonTron fan couldn't keep up his defense of him in the face of video evidence of his bigotry.

Yes, debating with people like this in your life is often unfruitful, but I feel like the general public being able to see this discussion was a very important.

 

[Nepenthe]

Did you stop watching Mel Gibson movies after he outed himself, how about Charlie Sheen's undeniable sexism.

I certainly did.

There's too much media and an unprecedented access to it to waste time and money on people who hate me.

 

[guybrushfreeman]

Aside from a few buttheads on the internet how many people will take his words to heart?

Did you stop watching Mel Gibson movies after he outed himself, how about Charlie Sheen's undeniable sexism.

You can still watch Mad Max and enjoy it, you can still watch Two and a Half Men (if that's your cup of tea, I think its kinda crap but whatever). Both of them became a laughing stock after their scandal. Neither of their obscene views were worth taking seriously, and it didn't really marginalise the work they did.

I don't really see how you can look at the world today and really think this stuff makes no difference

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Accidental Courtesy is a movie that I think more people need to watch. Racism has always been around and it's not going away anytime soon.

What we need is a way to reach out to people and not make it about well this huge monolith of people hate you for these views so go find support in he waiting arms of the alt-right.



I'm pretty sure someone talked with him on twitter and then immediately on twitch. If you're wondering why everyone who has a problem with jontron's views haven't reached out to him, that video is pretty indiciative of the response they'd expect to get.

Blame it on tone stanning when "ya boi" can't handle talking like a man.

JonTron was given a platform to respectfully give his views. Destiny wasn't coddling him which seems like what some people wanted however. It was a debate not a fucking education lesson plan.

Destiny never insulted him personally and JonTron also never made it personal. So I don't understand this bullshit about it being hate and not reaching out. They disagreed, jumped on a chat had a debate and now that's attacking?

What the fuck are people's definition of condescending, attacking and pushing people away. They had a 80 minute discussion. Is Destiny also suppose to show no emotion as well as host someone spitting literal bile?

 

[FinalStageBoss]

Aside from a few buttheads on the internet how many people will take his words to heart?

Did you stop watching Mel Gibson movies after he outed himself, how about Charlie Sheen's undeniable sexism.

You can still watch Mad Max and enjoy it, you can still watch Two and a Half Men (if that's your cup of tea, I think its kinda crap but whatever). Both of them became a laughing stock after their scandal. Neither of their obscene views were worth taking seriously, and it didn't really marginalise the work they did.

I sure as hell stopped watching scumbag Mel's novies. I wont support a racist piece of shit.

 

[Auctopus]

one could garner that he's a massive shithead.

Off topic but I just wanted you to know that I read this as Matt Smith's Toast of London voice which made it very convincing.

 

[Nick_C]

JonTron had plenty of opportunity to express his points.

His points just happened to be incoherent Stormfront bullshit. I still have no clue what he was trying to say during the "gene pool" part, and it's not because Destiny didn't give him enough time to speak.

You can say that, it doesn't mean that's true or how Jon sees it. I've listened to it twice and he was cut off a few times, which will more than likely give him the perception that it was a one-sided conversation. At the end of the day, it was great that Jon was shown for the ignorant, hate-mongering dipshit that he actually is, but in the long-term it does very little to help him realize how unfounded or totally untrue his ideas are.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

There's a huge difference in having to separate Youtube profiles from their work, and having to separate directors, actors and musicians from their work.

Jontron's product is "Watch me tear this game or movie apart". The product is him and his personality. I can watch movies by Polanski (not necessarily supporting them) because his movies don't really come off as him selling his own cult of personality, justifying his crimes. I on the other hand have a hard time watching Léon, knowing the story behind Besson and his ex wife.

Watching videos by someone like Jontron feels dirty, because you're being sold a lie about who he is. He's ultimately trying to fool you that he's an awesome dude with his actually funny and well produced videos starring "Jontron".

It's like if Alex Jones made an actually good cooking show, that had nothing to do with his fucked up personality and opinions.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

He puts more time and (shitty) effort into defending lies than updating his channel with content. And his newer stuff is just bad. Dunkey is running circles around him.

 

[jay]

Did you stop watching Mel Gibson movies after he outed himself, how about Charlie Sheen's undeniable sexism.

I assume you're suggesting hypocrisy here, but if someone has a goal and attains some of it, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If you want to stop buying goods from sweat shops and go from 95% to 50% of your stuff being made by children, that doesn't mean you're a piece of shit because you have a belief you didn't execute on perfectly.

This is tangentially related - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/opinion/sunday/the-real-problem-with-hypocrisy.html

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

It it that hard to just say "I don't care about this because it doesn't affect me" instead of trying to paint those who do care as hypocrites or bullies

It's ok to be honest

 

[eggandI]

Aside from a few buttheads on the internet how many people will take his words to heart?

Did you stop watching Mel Gibson movies after he outed himself, how about Charlie Sheen's undeniable sexism.

You can still watch Mad Max and enjoy it, you can still watch Two and a Half Men (if that's your cup of tea, I think its kinda crap but whatever). Both of them became a laughing stock after their scandal. Neither of their obscene views were worth taking seriously, and it didn't really marginalise the work they did.

Haha are you one of those people who still thinks /pol/ is just a joke site and has no effect on anything? Supremely ignorant post

 

[Stead Fast]

I certainly did.

There's too much media and an unprecedented access to it to waste time and money on people who hate me.

Exactly. The argument being put forwards seems to denote a 'need' to ignore these peoples' traits since they make entertainment; like we don't have an over abundance of alternatives to them. It's more possible than ever to turn away from bigots, racists, sexists in any entertainment industry, the need to ignore the kind of crap in order to enjoy Jontron's channel belittles the staggering amount of gaming youtubers who haven't gone on tirades of bigotry, and would kill for half his subscribers.

 

[Nepenthe]

It it that hard to just say "I don't care about this because it doesn't affect me" instead of trying to paint those who do care as hypocrites or bullies

It's ok to be honest

No one wants to be that bad guy.

 

[Felix Lighter]

All those other white supremacist waste so much time trying to vale their reprehensible world view with carefully crafted talking points to appear less irrationally hateful to the general public.

They all should just be declaring whites genetic superiority and publicly advocating immigration bans, not for a fear of radicalized terrorism, but for the most important reason, keeping the white gene pool as pure as possible. The moderates now consider these valid opinions that should not be attacked.

 

[torre_avenue]

I wonder if Audible will pull its sponsorship of the show.

And what'll Disney do considering Jon worked for them for that Star Wars series he did in 2015? I feel like Audible is the one that needs to comment on this shitshow, less so that Disney.

 

[freeofgreed]

Wow at the response in this thread. People really letting blatant racism slide just because they like this dude's youtube videos. Shouldn't be surprised anymore.

 

[DorkLord54]

Did you stop watching Mel Gibson movies after he outed himself, how about Charlie Sheen's undeniable sexism.

Uh, yeah. I also haven't seen a single Polanski film because of his transgressions.

 

[JBourne]

I don't really see how you can look at the world today and really think this stuff makes no difference

Yeah, what a baffling statement.

 

[Armaros]

It's amazing that even today with Trump-USA, we have people trying to tone police against calling out white supremacists for what they are, vile and disguting bigots.

To not hurt their delicate sensibilities while they try to take away rights from minorities, and said minorities have to be literal saints to win them over AND win the political battle to keep their rights from being taken away.

 

[brinstar]

Wow at the response in this thread. People really letting blatant racism slide just because they like this dude's youtube videos. Shouldn't be surprised anymore.

the bar is never low enough

 

[Nick_C]

I wonder if Audible will pull its sponsorship of the show.

And what'll Disney do considering Jon worked for them for that Star Wars series he did in 2015? I feel like Audible is the one that needs to comment on this shitshow, less so that Disney.

The only defense I can see Disney make is that he wasn't using his channel to promote his message. To that I would say that he used his Twitter, which also bears the JonTron branding on it. Honestly, he's been acting like a stooge so long I'm surprised they haven't done something already, but at the same time, it hasn't been this big.

I guess we give it some time and see.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Aside from a few buttheads on the internet how many people will take his words to heart?

Did you stop watching Mel Gibson movies after he outed himself, how about Charlie Sheen's undeniable sexism.

You can still watch Mad Max and enjoy it, you can still watch Two and a Half Men (if that's your cup of tea, I think its kinda crap but whatever). Both of them became a laughing stock after their scandal. Neither of their obscene views were worth taking seriously, and it didn't really marginalise the work they did.

I think it's a little different when people sharing those opinions are in some of the most powerful positions in the world. I mean, the top aide of the President of the United States isn't even trying to hide the fact that he's a white supremacist.

Not speaking out against this is normalizing it.

 

[torre_avenue]

The only defense I can see Disney make is that he wasn't using his channel to promote his message. To that I would say that he used his Twitter, which also bears the JonTron branding on it. Honestly, he's been acting like a stooge so long I'm surprised they haven't done something already, but at the same time, it hasn't been this big.

I guess we give it some time and see.

But that image floating around of Jon in the Nazi costume is from one of the Star Wars episodes he did, if my memory isn't failing me.

 

[Cloukyo]

Haha are you one of those people who still thinks /pol/ is just a joke site and has no effect on anything? Supremely ignorant post

100% of everyone I know has never heard of /pol/ and I've never been there, only heard of it (is it a 4chan sub-board?).

I think you guys overestimate the reach of e-celebs. One guy I know at work watches Markiplier and thats it.

Jontron has 3 million subs out of god knows how many people in the real western world. And only a tiny percentage of that 3 million know or care about his external work. From that percentage only a tiny percentage will actually take his words to heart or be affected.

How many people do you really think have seen the streams he's been on and let it shape their world view in any way.

This is another case of a celeb (except a supremely minor celeb) making an ass of himself.

Who do you think made a bigger difference in the atheist movement of a few years back? The Amazing Atheist, or Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens? It's people in the public eye that matter, professionals in their field who might be taken seriously like politicians and scientists.

Celebrities are nothing more than trained monkeys that dance in front of a camera trying to get our attention, and when they try to shove any of their political views in our face we just laugh.

Jontron is nothing more than a laughing stock at most. Nothing he says will change anything, so it's not worth taking seriously.

I think it's a little different when people sharing those opinions are in some of the most powerful positions in the world. I mean, the top aide of the President of the United States isn't even trying to hide the fact that he's a white supremacist.

Well yeah.

I'm talking about Jontron. No politicians. I've already said it's a problem when people who actually matter spout racist nonsense.

Uh, yeah. I also haven't seen a single Polanski film because of his transgressions.

Mad Max will always be an amazing film.

And I will always love the Disney classics, regardless of Walt Disney being a Nazi

 

[yanipheonu]

You know with all these ideas of "defending western civilization", so few stop think that if it needs defending, maybe it wasn't a great as they think it is.

I mean if White Nationals are so "superior", why are they so insecure?

I only ever hear fear, not strength, from these people.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Well yeah.

I'm talking about Jontron. No politicians. I've already said it's a problem when people who actually matter spout racist nonsense.

You do realize that people learn from the media they consume and the celebrities they follow, right? And a not-insignificant chunk of JonTron's fan base is impressionable children and young teenagers. Not many kids are watching Roman Polanski's films, and Mel Gibson's films aren't typically marketed to them, either.

These kids don't just like JonTron, they seem him as a role model or even a friend. They are prone to following his lead.

 

[themagicalkitsune]

The funny part is, JonTron got a friendly chat. Destiny gave him over an hour on stream to present his position and debate it without immediately telling him to fuck off.

And in this way he got him to expose himself single-handedly and ruin his image. It worked out good.

 

[ISee]

I think it's a little different when people sharing those opinions are in some of the most powerful positions in the world. I mean, the top aide of the President of the United States isn't even trying to hide the fact that he's a white supremacist.

Not speaking out against this is normalizing it.

It's is not just the USA though. Nationalism is on the rise all around the world. We have putin in Russia, erdogan in Turkey, le pen in France, the AFD in Germany, Wilders in the Netherlands, kaczynski in Poland just to name a few. It is very concerning and even more important to make a stand against them.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

100% of everyone I know has never heard of /pol/ and I've never been there, only heard of it (is it a 4chan sub-board?).

I think you guys overestimate the reach of e-celebs. One guy I know at work watches Markiplier and thats it.

Jontron has 3 million subs out of god knows how many people in the real western world. And only a tiny percentage of that 3 million know or care about his external work. From that percentage only a tiny percentage will actually take his words to heart or be affected.

How many people do you really think have seen the streams he's been on and let it shape their world view in any way.

This is another case of a celeb (except a supremely minor celeb) making an ass of himself.

Who do you think made a bigger difference in the atheist movement of a few years back? The Amazing Atheist, or Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens? It's people in the public eye that matter, professionals in their field who might be taken seriously like politicians and scientists.

Celebrities are nothing more than trained monkeys that dance in front of a camera trying to get our attention, and when they try to shove any of their political views in our face we just laugh.

Jontron is nothing more than a laughing stock at most. Nothing he says will change anything, so it's not worth taking seriously.



Well yeah.

I'm talking about Jontron. No politicians. I've already said it's a problem when people who actually matter spout racist nonsense.



Mad Max will always be an amazing film.

And I will always love the Disney classics, regardless of Walt Disney being a Nazi

Disney wasn't a Nazi so what are you even rambling about?

 

[Cloukyo]

You know with all these ideas of "defending western civilization", so few stop think that if it needs defending, maybe it wasn't a great as they think it is.

I mean if White Nationals are so "superior", why are they so insecure?

I only ever hear fear, not strength, from these people.

I'm not defending it, and I think this is something moved past, but its the typical totem nature that is built into humans.

Good or bad, historically humans fortify their clans from others

 

[Piccoro]

Tell that to David Clarke. He's a deeply conservative and self-hating African-American police officer that hates minorities and loves spouting toxic and racist rhetoric.

We have those in Europe too!

Check out this guy:

He's a member of a far-right, anti-immigration party (True Finns) in Finland, he's running for municipal elections and he's already been dubbed "The Black Hitler". (I'm not joking).

 

[Zubz]

I dunno guys, there are a lot of people in the entertainment industry. And remember, Jon Tron's content isn't made by him alone, he has a team.

Should we be throwing money at every bit of content where at least one team member wasn't a racist?

We can choose who we spend our money/attention on, and it's fine to not support a group if one member is morally objectionable. Doubly so if that person is the group's face.

 

[Apathy]

I don't agree with anything Jon is saying here. I also think he should have prepared better before agreeing to a debate with anyone. This was very poorly argued on his side.

Although I also disagree with the idea that his Debate with Destiny (™?) was "polite discourse." I listened to the whole thing, and I think both parties were pretty condescending to the other basically the entire time, and were constantly shouting each other down. I know the whole "tone policing" argument, but tone matters when you're trying to be persuasive.
.

What the fuck is this shit. Seriously. Who cares if it's poorly argued by his side. Even if he had time to prepare he's coming from a racist position. The only thing he could prepare for is to get more taking points that try to hide his racism better, something David Duke or Richard Spencer would do. Fuck this post, awful way to wake up and have to read this shit.

 

[Cloukyo]

Disney wasn't a Nazi so what are you even rambling about?

Hyperbole but Disney didn't sympathise with the jews during the war and his earlier movies had various problematic portrayals of minorities.

It wasn't to the point where he didn't employ jewish people, but at the same time he had no issue being bed fellows with well known anti-semites at the time.

 

[Timedog]

Wow at the response in this thread. People really letting blatant racism slide just because they like this dude's youtube videos. Shouldn't be surprised anymore.

Undoubtedly many of them share Jon's views, but are too scared to admit it on GAF.

 

[APF]

There's no evidence Disney was a Nazi, but some early Disney shorts certainly had racist caricature that was common to the time. And this is also part of what people mean when they say you should separate the art from the artist--that sometimes classic art/artists held beliefs that are anachronistic, but that doesn't mean we should necessarily dismiss or reject their importance in advancing the form. But that doesn't mean we should accept and support contemporary artists whose beliefs are currently anachronistic. We should only do that for works that are clearly revolutionary or boundary-breaking in ways that expand far beyond the artist as an individual. Disposable Youtube funnies don't pass that bar.

 

[Armaros]

What the fuck is this shit. Seriously. Who cares if it's poorly argued by his side. Even if he had time to prepare he's coming from a racist position. The only thing he could prepare for is to get more taking points that try to hide his racism better, something David Duke or Richard Spencer would do. Fuck this post, awful way to wake up and have to read this shit.

No no don't you see? You have to calml and with the patience of a saint let the racist gish gallop all over everything and then you spent all your time refuting every point and then have no tike to argue your point.

And that's you argue them, give them all the ground they want and just spent your time refuting false statements.

-message brought it you by 'how to argue with racist' Tone Policez

 

[Breads]

Uh, yeah. I also haven't seen a single Polanski film because of his transgressions.

Does Rush Hour 3 count?