Kabuki Waq
Member
Not a big deal considering she is essentially a hot woman for some reason fighting in a skimpy outfit.
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Joss Whedons leaked Wonder Woman screenplay is mindblowingly sexist
- Thread starter richiek
- Start date
Are we sure this isn't from Hollywood Shuffle 2?
Yikes
Kabuki Waq
Member
I mean to say almost all comics objectify women and men. Why all the complaints now?
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
How do we know this is legit? I mean, I'm pretty sure I could write something and claim it's an old draft Shane Black wrote fifteen years ago then put excerpts on Twitter.
If it is legit, though... yikes.
Edit: So I actually read the thread properly. Yup. Yikes.
If it is legit, though... yikes.
Edit: So I actually read the thread properly. Yup. Yikes.
It's legit. Dependable ol' Bobbers gave us a run through earlier.
cartographer
Member
boi
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Ah jeez.
Beerman462
Member
No she is a monster who also can't have kids.
andythinkpad
Member
If you call that "mindblowingly" sexist, so do a tons of comic books.
Double yikes
As society progresses, people tend to wanna call out needless objectification of women.
Random Human
They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
I'd be interested to know what draft number this is and what sort of directions he was receiving from the powers that be, since this doesn't really sound like something he'd write.
Either way, even if he was taking orders from some bonkers producers ala Kevin Smith's famous superhero story, he should've walked from the project.
Either way, even if he was taking orders from some bonkers producers ala Kevin Smith's famous superhero story, he should've walked from the project.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Well, yeah.
It's why that semi-derailing cap of Frank Miller's script for All-Star Batman & Robin has been semi-derailing. People are reading the excerpts of Whedon's script, then seeing a completely unrelated excerpt of a Frank Miller script, and drawing the conclusion the same writer wrote both.
It makes a decent point that even "the good ones" in superhero fiction are sometimes not much more than a degree or two removed from the real pieces of shit if you catch em on the wrong day.
Kabuki Waq
Member
I'm sure you all boycott the new wonder woman because they had her fighting wars in a mini skirt.
4 is a cutie
Banned
Alright so I see how this convo would go
Yup. That's exactly what this is all about. Good job on figuring it all out, breh.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
So far as the age of the script goes: yes, it's from 10 years ago. And that's not the same as Whedon now (hopefully)
Me 10 years ago (age 29) did/said/thought some pretty regressive shit. I was a grown man, and I still bought into some dumb shit even as I congratulated myself for being progressive & forward thinking. The hypocrisy that MRAs & white supremacists love to call out SJWs for harboring? It's an easy shot because it's aim is often true. Elements of homophobia, transphobia, sexism - that shit was all present in my speech and my personality to some degree or another just 10 yrs ago. All poorly thought out. All stuff that was somewhat accepted and so the freedom to use hurtful language and concepts without repercussion was indulged.
And slowly, over time, and through multiple mistakes and confrontations with people not happy with me and my cavalier attitudes towards hurting innocent people for the sake of a goof, I learned to correct a lot of that horseshit. 10 years is both not that long and also a pretty long time. Most of us here don't even have to vaguely remember 10 years ago. You can click on a user name and SEE what kind of jokes/gags you were engaging in at the same time Whedon was cranking that script out, and the parallels might be a little wince-inducing, too.
BUT:
Whedon was 41 when he wrote that, I believe, and a 41-year-old that had been hailed/praised for avoiding a LOT of the horseshit he was indulging in that screenplay. And a lot of that horseshit had—while toned down some—reared its head in projects current with his work on that script, and after. If he was learning, he was learning slowly, and a 50 year old man making the same mistakes he made at 40, which were already mistakes he probably should have started correcting from when he was 30? There's diminishing patience at play there.
Nobody's saying the man needs to have a perfect track record in the Olympics of Wokeness or whatever (although maybe people are saying that, probably are) but if he's not really moving forward, if he's unwilling to even break down why it is he keeps doing this (and in that interview I posted with Ruffalo, he basically cops to exactly that) then I think the skepticism, if not full-on distrust, is to some degree earned.
Maybe not to the degrees he's currently catching it, and maybe not over a decade-old draft of a project that never got off the ground, but I don't think he's being altogether wronged here, either.
Me 10 years ago (age 29) did/said/thought some pretty regressive shit. I was a grown man, and I still bought into some dumb shit even as I congratulated myself for being progressive & forward thinking. The hypocrisy that MRAs & white supremacists love to call out SJWs for harboring? It's an easy shot because it's aim is often true. Elements of homophobia, transphobia, sexism - that shit was all present in my speech and my personality to some degree or another just 10 yrs ago. All poorly thought out. All stuff that was somewhat accepted and so the freedom to use hurtful language and concepts without repercussion was indulged.
And slowly, over time, and through multiple mistakes and confrontations with people not happy with me and my cavalier attitudes towards hurting innocent people for the sake of a goof, I learned to correct a lot of that horseshit. 10 years is both not that long and also a pretty long time. Most of us here don't even have to vaguely remember 10 years ago. You can click on a user name and SEE what kind of jokes/gags you were engaging in at the same time Whedon was cranking that script out, and the parallels might be a little wince-inducing, too.
BUT:
Whedon was 41 when he wrote that, I believe, and a 41-year-old that had been hailed/praised for avoiding a LOT of the horseshit he was indulging in that screenplay. And a lot of that horseshit had—while toned down some—reared its head in projects current with his work on that script, and after. If he was learning, he was learning slowly, and a 50 year old man making the same mistakes he made at 40, which were already mistakes he probably should have started correcting from when he was 30? There's diminishing patience at play there.
Nobody's saying the man needs to have a perfect track record in the Olympics of Wokeness or whatever (although maybe people are saying that, probably are) but if he's not really moving forward, if he's unwilling to even break down why it is he keeps doing this (and in that interview I posted with Ruffalo, he basically cops to exactly that) then I think the skepticism, if not full-on distrust, is to some degree earned.
Maybe not to the degrees he's currently catching it, and maybe not over a decade-old draft of a project that never got off the ground, but I don't think he's being altogether wronged here, either.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
Wonder Woman should wear pants or something to defend her legs.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Now I'm worried that Whedon is going to ruin Justice League.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Whedon's two best shows are Firefly and Angelthe shows in which he actually centers the narrative on a guy & his friends, and proceeds forward from that point.
If Justice League is Batman's movie (and it probably is) whatever he adds to it will probably be just fine because Angel really isn't much more than Vampire Batman in Los Angeles.
If Justice League is Batman's movie (and it probably is) whatever he adds to it will probably be just fine because Angel really isn't much more than Vampire Batman in Los Angeles.
Kingpin Rogers
Member
Sounds like the kind of thing you'd watch to laugh at haha.
PhantomX1313
Member
Like Extended pads over thighs but I like it open just as bullets automatically change route because of mid-air deflect
The man wrote and directed The Avengers.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Yes, but seems like he has this fetish over WW. I don't want him to ruin WW's role.
He's been outspokenly pro-feminism and there are certain groups (think:GG etc.) that make it their goal to find anything to try and tear people like that down.
Similar thing in any Double Fine/ Tim Schafer discussions etc.
I'm currently looking for a blog I once read on writing by a female feminist who writes books.
She talks about how she's the most sexist conforming feminist she knows because she has a strong instinct to fall into sexist tropes in her stories on her first drafts. "Hm...I need this character to do something bad....why don't I just have him rape my female protagonist!"
It's not that she isn't aware or doesn't believe these things are wrong or that they have an effect. It's just that because these tropes have been ingrained from other works, this has become the default expression. So she needs to write it down, then go back and re-edit the entire story into something less sexist.
So in regards to Whedon, given his feminist views as well as character work that has dealt with issues of sexism where they both strongly reject toxic stuff, or accept it in some ways (an earlier post talked about how Mal from Firefly tries to slutshame Inara, but does so for reasons of sexual tension), I'm willing to believe that something like this plays into it.
The thing about it is that this being a draft, it wasn't supposed to see the light of day. Which is, for me, the reason I just don't worry too much about this. Drafts are meant to be changed and edited as they went on. And in that space, I'm far more lenient to whatever kind of writing you want to do, because what matter is what gets out to the public eye. If this had been the final draft that was intended to be representative of the movie, then I'd have more of a bone to pick with it. But for me, this is more of a "this is how the sausage is made" sort of situation.
She talks about how she's the most sexist conforming feminist she knows because she has a strong instinct to fall into sexist tropes in her stories on her first drafts. "Hm...I need this character to do something bad....why don't I just have him rape my female protagonist!"
It's not that she isn't aware or doesn't believe these things are wrong or that they have an effect. It's just that because these tropes have been ingrained from other works, this has become the default expression. So she needs to write it down, then go back and re-edit the entire story into something less sexist.
So in regards to Whedon, given his feminist views as well as character work that has dealt with issues of sexism where they both strongly reject toxic stuff, or accept it in some ways (an earlier post talked about how Mal from Firefly tries to slutshame Inara, but does so for reasons of sexual tension), I'm willing to believe that something like this plays into it.
The thing about it is that this being a draft, it wasn't supposed to see the light of day. Which is, for me, the reason I just don't worry too much about this. Drafts are meant to be changed and edited as they went on. And in that space, I'm far more lenient to whatever kind of writing you want to do, because what matter is what gets out to the public eye. If this had been the final draft that was intended to be representative of the movie, then I'd have more of a bone to pick with it. But for me, this is more of a "this is how the sausage is made" sort of situation.
Oldest Snake
Member
So it was basically Game of Thrones: Wonder Woman edition.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
Absolutely true btw. Don't know if it applies here, but it's what I do. More cliche than sexist, although sexist is kinda cliche, right?
BronsonLee
Member
The main things we can take from this is that this is probably Bobby's fault somehow
Yup. The point is, everyone has a tendency toward the default in some way. Because it's the easiest and most convenient. To diverge from that takes effort, and many people get there by getting the default option out of their system, so they can move on from there.
You're right that I have no actual proof that this is what happened, but it's why I'm not really concerned about condemning Whedon over this. The drafting stage is the stage where you have no idea what the fuck you're doing and are grasping at whatever bullshit is available. It's not pretty, but it's an essential piece of the process (at least for some people). It is a necessary stepping stone. It If this was intended to be the representative of the final product, then I'd be singing a different tune.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Pretty sure it was one of the last (if not the last) drafts before the project was scuttled.
MsKrisp
Member
What's wrong with a miniskirt? Kicking ass is easier when you aren't restricted
BronsonLee
Member
Joss brought up rape in Firefly before too with that dude in the series finale who kidnapped Kaylee, it's weird
Though I always got the vibe that Mal was presented as in the wrong anytime he did that to Inara
But didn't Whedon say that the project was scuttled because he couldn't get it to where he wanted it to be?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Also, for further reading, the end of the twitter thread that inspired the OP features a link to this 2015 essay on Whedon's proclivities as a screenwriter that, paired with his own words in that interview with Ruffalo, paint an interesting (and probably not that inaccurate) picture of what drives him, and how those drives can simultaneously make for great feminist art and also some really boneheaded storytelling decisions. (kind of along the lines of Veelk's friend, in fact)
I said that, but recently he's been framing the decision as more Warner's, and not his. I do remember the initial reports making it out to be a more mutual decision, but his much-more recent interviews have made it seem like he wanted to pursue what he'd written there, and was prevented from doing so by the executives, who didn't have faith in the direction he was pursuing.
Whether the initial description was more accurate or the later ones were, I dunno - but I tend to believe the earlier ones, myself. Which is why I put that one forward.
I said that, but recently he's been framing the decision as more Warner's, and not his. I do remember the initial reports making it out to be a more mutual decision, but his much-more recent interviews have made it seem like he wanted to pursue what he'd written there, and was prevented from doing so by the executives, who didn't have faith in the direction he was pursuing.
Whether the initial description was more accurate or the later ones were, I dunno - but I tend to believe the earlier ones, myself. Which is why I put that one forward.
Yeah, I can't really take anyone seriously who thinks that's a sexist scene.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
If you told me that Michael Allred drew your avatar I would believe you.
There's an episode where he clarifies he's insulting her profession, not her. I think the intent is akin to how he says Book is welcome on his ship, God ain't, but it doesn't entirely work.
Whendon did not write Justice League. Whedon did not direct Justice League.
Have no fear -- Zack Snyder will be the one who ruins Justice League.
Salty Rice
Member
I just love the reaction for a 11 year old leaked script.
"Joss Whedon the guy known for great female characters is secretly sexist!"
"Joss gonna ruin Justice League!"
This hilarious.
Dont worry guys he will not gonna let Wonder Woman press her ass against Steppenwolf´s face to distract him.
"Joss Whedon the guy known for great female characters is secretly sexist!"
"Joss gonna ruin Justice League!"
This hilarious.
Dont worry guys he will not gonna let Wonder Woman press her ass against Steppenwolf´s face to distract him.
I like the point where the author decides that an all-woman society must be without flaws, or else it's sexist.
I don't really get that either. Also isn't it always the case that the Amazons on the island mistrust Steve and aren't all that eager to help the rest of the world? Diana usually has to stand up for him.