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[Branduil]

Totally off topic, but for some reason I just realized what used to bother me about the Rogue Squadron games: Nothing is built to scale. Those giant buildings in Cloud City weren't really big. As in, you'd expect to keep flying closer to them for a while before you smacked into them. They're proportional to everything else in the level, except your fighter and other ships.

Uhm, yeah...sorry. Just had to get that out of my system. And if I'm totally wrong, somebody please tell me. My memory could just be wonky

What do you mean? The scale was fine in Rogue Leader. RS1 had really wonky scaling though.

 

[Ristamar]

This thread reminds that I wish Rebel Strike had widescreen support, especially for co-op.

 

[papercut]

What do you mean? The scale was fine in Rogue Leader. RS1 had really wonky scaling though.

Was it? I could have sworn that the nose of your ship would ram into something--anything--before it was supposed to if the size of the object was correct. It seemed like you were flying around in a world where everything except your ship was significantly smaller than it should have been. Sadly I don't have a copy of the game to double check.

 

[AndoCalrissian]

I don't really care if they make a game for Wii, but Factor 5 should make a multipurpose middleware engine that could be licensed. Or Nintendo should contract them to do this, and then provide it to 3rd parties for cheap.

 

[Branduil]

Was it? I could have sworn that the nose of your ship would ram into something--anything--before it was supposed to if the size of the object was correct. It seemed like you were flying around in a world where everything except your ship was significantly smaller than it should have been. Sadly I don't have a copy of the game to double check.

You were probably just used to RS1's horrifically huge scale where everything in the world was way larger than it should have been. I suppose it's possible they overcompensated a little in the sequel.

 

[Stealth]

Seeing games like Rebel Strike and then looking at the launch titles for Wii makes me depressed. Why does new controller design make mediocre graphics permissible? Why?! Nintendo is the only company putting out polished products now. That's pathetic.

 

[LM4sure]

that's the beauty of the wii. developers will be able to make games for teh cheap and make more money than they will off of a game they release on the ps3 and 360!!! nintendo has got things figured out!!!

 

[.dmc]

Isn't 90% of the problem with Wii games currently that all the devs were caught with their pants down and have rushed out any game they can whilst having to start from scratch on their Wii engines? It isn't like PS3 + 360 where devs were probably starting on their pipelines back in 2005 if not before, these games were started after TGS'05 or E3'06 and were for the most part started on GC kits. I think people will generally be surprised by how good Wii games start looking by 2008, not PS3@SD good, but a really appreciable jump from xbox considering the cost of the console.

 

[John Harker]

Factor 5 is doing a Wii game? huh?

 

[PantherLotus]

Isn't 90% of the problem with Wii games currently that all the devs were caught with their pants down and have rushed out any game they can whilst having to start from scratch on their Wii engines? It isn't like PS3 + 360 where devs were probably starting on their pipelines back in 2005 if not before, these games were started after TGS'05 or E3'06 and were for the most part started on GC kits. I think people will generally be surprised by how good Wii games start looking by 2008, not PS3@SD good, but a really appreciable jump from xbox considering the cost of the console.

That is a significant and understated point.

 

[krypt0nian]

Isn't 90% of the problem with Wii games currently that all the devs were caught with their pants down and have rushed out any game they can whilst having to start from scratch on their Wii engines? It isn't like PS3 + 360 where devs were probably starting on their pipelines back in 2005 if not before, these games were started after TGS'05 or E3'06 and were for the most part started on GC kits. I think people will generally be surprised by how good Wii games start looking by 2008, not PS3@SD good, but a really appreciable jump from xbox considering the cost of the console.

Bottom line: when are most games going to look better than xbox? I'm fully content they will never look 360/PS3 good, but I'm unwilling to settle for sub-GC/xbox.

Gameplay doesn't trump graphics that much in my house.

 

[ELS-01X]

Isn't 90% of the problem with Wii games currently that all the devs were caught with their pants down and have rushed out any game they can whilst having to start from scratch on their Wii engines? It isn't like PS3 + 360 where devs were probably starting on their pipelines back in 2005 if not before, these games were started after TGS'05 or E3'06 and were for the most part started on GC kits. I think people will generally be surprised by how good Wii games start looking by 2008, not PS3@SD good, but a really appreciable jump from xbox considering the cost of the console.

Why would they have to start from scratch their engines? It's already been said, the Wii is a GCN turbo, they could simply reuse their GCN engines. Even if they couldn't, remember that RSII was made under 9 months, so even if they had started so late, that wouldn't be an acceptable excuse.

 

[soul creator]

Isn't 90% of the problem with Wii games currently that all the devs were caught with their pants down and have rushed out any game they can whilst having to start from scratch on their Wii engines? It isn't like PS3 + 360 where devs were probably starting on their pipelines back in 2005 if not before, these games were started after TGS'05 or E3'06 and were for the most part started on GC kits. I think people will generally be surprised by how good Wii games start looking by 2008, not PS3@SD good, but a really appreciable jump from xbox considering the cost of the console.

but the whole idea with making Wii a "gamecube turbo" in the first place is that even if they were caught with their pants down, development would be able to easily catch up, due to its incredible ease of use and cheap development. Or something.

I do remember a lot of discussions were people were basically saying that every Wii game would be "6th generation Gamecube games" and not have to deal with the whole "well we need to learn how to tap the system" thing.

Of course, since most 3rd parties didn't target the Gamecube last gen anyway, the whole ease of development advantage may be somewhat lost.

 

[RuGalz]

Isn't 90% of the problem with Wii games currently that all the devs were caught with their pants down and have rushed out any game they can whilst having to start from scratch on their Wii engines? It isn't like PS3 + 360 where devs were probably starting on their pipelines back in 2005 if not before, these games were started after TGS'05 or E3'06 and were for the most part started on GC kits. I think people will generally be surprised by how good Wii games start looking by 2008, not PS3@SD good, but a really appreciable jump from xbox considering the cost of the console.

I think you got it backwards. Any GC engine can be ported to Wii in very short time. In that sense, devs already have a few years of experiences with the hardware so pushing the hardware isn't as time consuming as you make it sound. That's why it's very disappointing to see the current state of visual fidelity in Wii games.

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

Isn't 90% of the problem with Wii games currently that all the devs were caught with their pants down and have rushed out any game they can whilst having to start from scratch on their Wii engines? It isn't like PS3 + 360 where devs were probably starting on their pipelines back in 2005 if not before, these games were started after TGS'05 or E3'06 and were for the most part started on GC kits. I think people will generally be surprised by how good Wii games start looking by 2008, not PS3@SD good, but a really appreciable jump from xbox considering the cost of the console.

Nintendo was caught with its pants down, too?

I'm fine with last-gen graphics on Wii as long as the games are interesting. Thing is: the games aren't interesting. Aside from Mario Galaxy, Nintendo's efforts have about Madden-level ambition from what we've seen thus far. I still think the Wiimote is a fine idea, but reality of the Wii - right now - is that it looks like what would happen if PopCap made a console.

 

[Zeenbor]

I think you got it backwards. Any GC engine can be ported to Wii in very short time. In that sense, devs already have a few years of experiences with the hardware so pushing the hardware isn't as time consuming as you make it sound. That's why it's very disappointing to see the current state of visual fidelity in Wii games.

This would be true if most developers had GC experience under their belt, which most did NOT because PS2 was the dominant platform. I programmed for GC a few years ago and, let me tell you, I've only met 2 other GC coders since and one of those worked for Nintendo.

It's just a shame that a publisher's focus these days is to make a quick buck with last-gen ports in order to cash in on the Wii hype. Low budgets, unrealistic deadlines, and licensed drivel is the REAL reason Wii games are hurting visually and creatively. Down with shit!

 

[ethelred]

i discussed that with ethelred, see screenshot thread

I think I've been summoned...

 

[Muppet345]

I've made it a personal oath to not buy anymore Wii games that graphically look like ass.

Clean, stylized graphics like Monkey Ball, Godzilla, or even Wii Sports? That'll do.

Jaggy, horrific ports from the PS2 or PSP with no 480p, no 16:9, and no obvious effort from the developer? I don't care how fun your game is. Go die.

 

[Speevy]

Some parts of the course in Wii Sports Golf are Xbox-ish in appearance, specifically a Halo-esque grass texture. So that's a start, I guess.

Most of the other stuff looks shameful however. If they could do Conker (or better!) on this machine, they should.

 

[RuGalz]

This would be true if most developers had GC experience under their belt, which most did NOT because PS2 was the dominant platform. I programmed for GC a few years ago and, let me tell you, I've only met 2 other GC coders since and one of those worked for Nintendo.

Sure there are definitely fewer devoted GC programmers than PS2 last gen but it is still a relatively easy platform to work on with a fairly rigid framework.

It's just a shame that a publisher's focus these days is to make a quick buck with last-gen ports in order to cash in on the Wii hype. Low budgets, unrealistic deadlines, and licensed drivel is the REAL reason Wii games are hurting visually and creatively. Down with shit!

I think every platform suffers from this at least to certain degree. While Wii games can definitely look better than they do I don't think they would really look that much better. Even Nintendo's own efforts are not that much more than you have seen on GC. As long as games sale, I don't think publishers will care to push the system since the demographics accept it as is.

 

[NotWii]

Well said Julian, now when are you releasing your Wii game? ... Oh yeah :/

 

[Fafalada]

This would be true if most developers had GC experience under their belt, which most did NOT because PS2 was the dominant platform. I programmed for GC a few years ago and, let me tell you, I've only met 2 other GC coders since and one of those worked for Nintendo.

That's true - but GCN architecture is also by far the most forgiving platform in recent console history - the differences between "bad" and "good" way of coding are quite minimal compared to say XBox, let alone PS2.
Any experienced console programmer should have no difficulty to jump into Wii development, and be good at it in short time. The only question is how adept studios are at tailoring their content creation pipelines to really show what platform is capable off.

But like Rugalz mentions, quick cash-ins plague all platforms, it's the way bussiness works, and right now publishers are more interested in quickie ports to Wii then any other platform.

 

[Pud]

Nintendo was caught with its pants down, too?

I'm fine with last-gen graphics on Wii as long as the games are interesting. Thing is: the games aren't interesting. Aside from Mario Galaxy, Nintendo's efforts have about Madden-level ambition from what we've seen thus far. I still think the Wiimote is a fine idea, but reality of the Wii - right now - is that it looks like what would happen if PopCap made a console.

:lol I think you need a new tag :lol

 

[EphemeralDream]

Sure there are definitely fewer devoted GC programmers than PS2 last gen but it is still a relatively easy platform to work on with a fairly rigid framework.

Games that have been built from the ground up for the Wii and released typically all showed some technical prowess but were limited by time with some exceptions here and there (Wing Island). I recall hearing that Red Steel looked very ambitious at some parts but like garbage in others and that game was rushed. No matter how rigid the framework is, it takes a lot of time to push a system to its limits. It's the ports from last gen consoles that are really making the system look bad. The lack of technical effort is worrisome but we are definitely seeing progress, even if it is at a snail's pace (showing that many of these developers aren't really familiar with the system).

You have to also look at the developers who are working on the console right now. Not many of them are known to be hardware pushers and aside from Nintendo with SMG, there may not be one for a while. There are some good looking games coming from 3rd parties but nothing showing RE4 type effort.

 

[Pud]

Yep, some parts of Red Steel (including the multiplayer) look sub-GCNish, but others look way beyond what was seen on the Gamecube. Those shots that Ubi released ARE bullshots... but only in the sense that the resolution is higher, and the AA is cranked. Those pretty environments really look like that (without that AA). Now if that same team can have as much dev time as they need for Red Steel 2, it may turn out to be a really solid game (not just visually) instead of an average one.

 

[krypt0nian]

I've made it a personal oath to not buy anymore Wii games that graphically look like ass.

Clean, stylized graphics like Monkey Ball, Godzilla, or even Wii Sports? That'll do.

Jaggy, horrific ports from the PS2 or PSP with no 480p, no 16:9, and no obvious effort from the developer? I don't care how fun your game is. Go die.

I shall take this oath as well. No cash for sloppy shit. Plenty of fun games that actually take the time to shine, thank you. On the wii, PS3 and 360.

 

[LanceStern]

Isn't EA making a studio to specifically develop and research the Wii architecture?

That's a good step

 

[Pud]

Isn't EA making a studio to specifically develop and research the Wii architecture?

That's a good step

They've got a few of them now. So yes, good for them. Hell, Disney has its own Wii studio now. Rockstar is dedicating a separate studio just for the Wii version of its Manhunt game. All these games that have been announced recently for the Wii due to its ballooning popularity since E3 are really making GC programmers far more in demand, that's for sure.

 

[Newzboyz99]

Factore 5 was left in the dark about Wii's direction. Considering how close F5 was with Nintendo with GCN, it shows just how far behind and basically unprepared the entire develpment community was with Wii. We'll see much, much better stuff to come and its very clear that if F5 was in the dark, mostly everyone else was.

 

[PantherLotus]

I think a lot of people are looking at Wing Island and games like GT Pro or other shovelware and trying to use that to make some over-arching argument about every Wii game when it simply doesn't follow. Of course the little shit houses are putting out shit games. They put out shit games on every platform.

If one looks to the bigger developers (EA, Ubi, SE, etc), their games are actually looking quite good. People trashed Red Steel but everyone agreed it looked pretty damn good. Same thing with Madden 07 and the upcoming exclusive SSX Blur. And these are developers big enough to dedicate entire studios to Wii development (which they're just now doing).

The truth is that the games worth mentioning, and the developers for that matter, are putting out pretty good stuff and that will only improve.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Unless the Wii becomes insanely successful (think DS in Japan levels) and third parties have to compete amongst each other on one console, this will continue to be the case.

The problem is not that Wii developers are sloppy, but that all developers are sloppy. Devs hate pushing limits. If you look at them as businessmen, you can't really blame them. It takes copious amounts of time and effort to utilize a system to near its full potential.

Think of a console's resources as a spring. Pushing the spring back is like programming for those resources. If you only use half of them, it's fairly easy, and you've got a good amount of slack, or "play." This is like Wing Island on the Wii or Genji 2 on the PS3. The further you squeeze the spring, however, the harder it becomes to squeeze it. And you've got a lot of tension and not much give or room for error near the end. This is like God of War 2 on PS2 or Rogue Squadron or RE4 on GC or (I think) Ninja Gaiden on XBOX.

If you're strictly out for money, there's little incentive in putting in the effort and time it takes to push the limits. People will buy shit -- that much proves itself over and over.

If integrity, art, standing out, things like this matter to you, you'd be more willing to sacrifice.

People often say the current generation came to quickly. The main reason I agree is that it encourages sloppy coding. Developers (outside of your Kojima teams and your EADs) were just starting to settle down and program efficiently and with care when MS (and now Sony) came along and said "Forget about these limits. Here is a mess of resources you can play around and get dirty in." It sounds good in theory, but most devs can't handle the psychological aspect of it and wind up programming sloppily or just writing bad code.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I still think Rogue 5 should make better games. Bump mapping or not.

 

[DDayton]

it is scaring me that these simple, ugly, childish games are outselling complex, beautiful, online games. Sooner or later developers are going to stop trying to go forward with the 360/PS3 when they know they can knock out a game for the wii in half the time, with half the budget and sell twice as many copies

I'm trying to figure out why you put the terms "childish" and "online" in there... "simple & ugly versus complex & beautiful" seems like a logical comparison of opposites, but...

You Make it sound like its a new problem. When its been a problem with past gens as well. Games like Ty the Tazmanian tiger outselling Okami and Psychonauts. This isnt a new problem at all

Did someone just speak badly of Ty on GAF?

 

[Ydahs]

Totally agree. At least Sega and EA are trying to make an effort with Blur and Sonic. Also Dewy's Adventure is looking good. TP is still one of the best looking Wii games and it was built on GCN hardware...

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Factor 5 should make Wii development training videos. Sponsored by Fred McGriff.

On a serious note, imagine Rebel Strike without the memory restraints (no need to stream off the disc, which must have been a pain to get working properly), and bump up the graphic fidelity a bit. That kind of lighting, and bump mapping should be commonplace NOW on Wii.

 

[LanceStern]

I think a lot of people are looking at Wing Island and games like GT Pro or other shovelware and trying to use that to make some over-arching argument about every Wii game when it simply doesn't follow. Of course the little shit houses are putting out shit games. They put out shit games on every platform.

If one looks to the bigger developers (EA, Ubi, SE, etc), their games are actually looking quite good. People trashed Red Steel but everyone agreed it looked pretty damn good. Same thing with Madden 07 and the upcoming exclusive SSX Blur. And these are developers big enough to dedicate entire studios to Wii development (which they're just now doing).

The truth is that the games worth mentioning, and the developers for that matter, are putting out pretty good stuff and that will only improve.

People tend to only stick to the negative.

SSX Blur, Sonic Wildfire, Dragon Quest Swords, No More Heroes look great.

Dewy's Adventure is the most graphically impressive I must say. Normal mapping, beautiful lighting and particles. I'm surprised it's the best looking one coming out.

When they take the time to build games up for the Wii, it DOES show

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Man, I'd buy a PS3 for a Rogue Squadron game based in Star Wars EU (include NJO!) alone. Do it, Julian.

And... ah, this is launch season: this is what developers (or rather, the publishers) do, pump out crap, and rake in the cash with no risk, baby. If I wasn't a gamer myself, I'd probably see it as good business sense. The Wii itself was an unexpected factor by many this time 'round, so that puts another level on it, and unless Nintendo lead the charge with strong first-party offerings which continue to break the non-gamer wall, you probably won't be seeing anything exceptional from it. Luckily for Nintendo though, they're pretty good at making games.

 

[jaundicejuice]

People tend to only stick to the negative.

Or they're sticking with the norm and not the exceptions.

 

[TheIkariWarrior]

regarding Factor 5 on Gamecube vs MOST other developers, Factor 5 never ate any brooms :lol

 

[Moderation Unlimited]

I think GAF should bash developer efforts on Wii and Nintendo perpetuating the idea that graphics are not important. They are the ones that are pushing this business model. So, it is partially their fault. Hopefully, the GAF > internets > GAF effect will happen and developers will be pressured through negative press to put some effort in to polish their Wii games up a bit and to at least TRY to utilize the hardware in its full capacity for crying out loud.

 

[Mockingbird]

Are you saying he's wrong? Hell Hitler could still tell time by looking at a clock.

Wasn't he saying negative things about the Wii and then now all of sudden he wants to work on it? As in trying to save face because the console leader is crystal clear and Nintendo has returned to the throne?

 

[KTallguy]

I think that the majority of companies will continue to make games just good enough to sell. Once they see substantial diminishing returns, they'll stop trying to improve things. It's that simple.

Companies with the slightest shred of integrity may try a bit harder, like with Konami and Dewey's adventure, but I'm guessing this will be the exception, not the norm.

 

[Pud]

^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, every developer from now on will not put any effort whatsoever into their Wii visuals and continue to port PS2 offerings, 4 years from now. /sarcasm

You do realize that while it's nowhere near a certainty, it's looking more and more everyday like Nintendo will emerge market leader (especially in Japan). And when that happens, developers will shift the most focus onto the platform AND actually put effort into it? Y'know, kinda like the PS2 last gen? I'm sorry, but for a 200mhz machine I'd say efforts like God of War and Okami look pretty good, don't you? Imagine what 4x the power/memory could do!

 

[Haunted]

Julian is such a graphics whore. Always was, always will.

 

[LCGeek]

People saying Wii is an OC GC shouldn't be taken seriously. An OC is taking existing hardware and bumping up the speeds. The wii has a noticeable ram increase 3x, a gpu that 2-3x the size of flipper if you account for the die shrink and now using the top tier of of 750cpu class not to mention has twice the L1 and L2 cache that's not an OC any way you slice it. Retro, Nintendo, EA, and even to a degree F5 have said this system is more beastily than the GC let alone the xbox. Anybody with a clue of GC vs Xbox in the discussion of specs knows that an OC GC could never beat an xbox and devs even like Ubisoft have been quoted as saying the power exceeds that. Furthermore I know at least on this board pc heads can easily back me up on this. Would anyone in this camp of stupid OC GC 1.5 BS care to explain how a speed boost of not even 50% gives you a 200%-300% performance increase on top of in some cases doing effects that exceed GC's abilities? Better yet I bet these same people were the ones telling me gc couldn't do normal mapping nothing felt better than this week seeing so many haters including matt at ign eat crow on this issue.

On the subject itself this is something that's been going on for nintendo and 3rd parties since they started making 3d consoles. Either way 3rd parties can't really gripe about time it takes to make a good looking game. Factor 5 had 9 months granted they had a insider advantage with the GC there's no excuse with Wii and the power is has not having titles that are clearly better than 1st generation efforts on the gc like RL, SFA, or even LM. As others noted the very fact the Wii is more like GC than PS3/360 to PS2/Xbox shows how even more lazy they are when it comes to pushing a system.

Nintendo shares some blame for this. The TEV could be documented better and F5 or themselves should've made a HLSL for it as well. Fact is Julian has hinted at graphical middleware solution possibilities should be a sure fire sign to get something up. Yet those saying nintendo said they don't care about graphics really love misinterpeting things. Not once has nintendo said anything of the sort go ahead and make me eat crow on this issue. Everytime this discussion is brought up it's out of context. Nintendo said they have no interest in entering a gigantic pissing contest between ati, nvidia, sony, and ms who all have a huge agenda with hd and graphcis this generation. Still when you slice this issue nintendo actually has Wii titles that look better than their predecessors 3rd parties not so much.

 

[-Rogue5-]

I'm liking Julian Eggebrecht (and Factor 5) more and more each time I read something new. Not only that, but after playing Lair in 1080p, with all the crazy crap happening on screen, I'm convinced that they are a really capable developer. I can't wait for them to get a truly unique and story-strong IP going (Lair might be that IP, but it's still far too early to tell.)

But yeah, this is a guy who knows (or at least seems to know) how to really dig into a system and get the real performance/visual quality the system is capable of. I mean logically the Wii has twice the ram, fillrate, and 1.5 the CPU clock. It IS capable of doing something twice as impressive as RE4 (which says a LOT when you consider how gorgeous RE4 is.) I could easily see StandardDef Gears-esque graphics running on the Wii...

 

[Lobster]

That looks good ever=n by ps3/x360 standards, resolution aside.

If wii can infact do better than that, look forward to it.

Lucas Arts make GREAT looking games. Very Great looking games. I remember the N64 Star Wars games and they were amazingly good looking.

 

[MrSardonic]

he's right about developers being lazy...but they were lazy on every platform last gen too.

his comments about gaming needing to be more artistic on the gameplay side are also correct - just a shame that Factor 5 have never been a company to even come close to providing that kind of experience.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Lucas Arts make GREAT looking games. Very Great looking games. I remember the N64 Star Wars games and they were amazingly good looking.

All Factor 5.

 

[Aisenherz]

Lucas Arts make GREAT looking games. Very Great looking games. I remember the N64 Star Wars games and they were amazingly good looking.

:lol
Factor 5, dude