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[homulilly]

Fair enough. Do recall, though, that this mode is completely optional, so you never have to even SEE it if you don't want to.

Also, you're not really doing it with the EXPECTATION of sex. It's more with the HOPE of sex. If that matters at all.

-Tom

Being optional as actually pretty cool and a step up from a lot of games, but I can't help but be bothered by the fact it exists.

I think at this point my problem is with the people saying Matt (and others) don't have a right to criticize the game or its creator more than with the game its self. Suda51 has a right to make any kind of game he wants but people have the right, and in the case of journalists the duty (in my opinion), to tell him to grow the fuck up and reign in on the creepy shit.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I think at this point my problem is with the people saying Matt (and others) don't have a right to criticize the game or its creator more than with the game its self. Suda51 has a right to make any kind of game he wants but people have the right, and in the case of journalists the duty (in my opinion), to tell him to grow the fuck up and reign in on the creepy shit.

Who said that he doesn't have a right to criticize Suda? I think what people are saying is that if you're going to do it then at least take the time to get your facts straight. I don't think that's asking too much from someone that says games journalism has lost its way and is apparently trying to do something to fix it.

 

[Gskyace]

I love the characters in his games, especially girls. XDD
Day one.

 

[Astarte]

Being optional as actually pretty cool and a step up from a lot of games, but I can't help but be bothered by the fact it exists.

I think at this point my problem is with the people saying Matt (and others) don't have a right to criticize the game or its creator more than with the game its self. Suda51 has a right to make any kind of game he wants but people have the right, and in the case of journalists the duty (in my opinion), to tell him to grow the fuck up and reign in on the creepy shit.

It isn't Suda that pitched the idea...it's his creative director, Shin Hideyuki.

Suda's also been quoted as ”It’s not that we depict the women in any derogatory way, so I’m not extremely concerned about the depiction of these characters,” he said. “I think if you play this mode for yourself, [then] you will be able to understand the context.”
I'm down for understanding context, rather than taking things to astronomical hilarity

 

[CmdBash]

Being optional as actually pretty cool and a step up from a lot of games, but I can't help but be bothered by the fact it exists.

I think at this point my problem is with the people saying Matt (and others) don't have a right to criticize the game or its creator more than with the game its self. Suda51 has a right to make any kind of game he wants but people have the right, and in the case of journalists the duty (in my opinion), to tell him to grow the fuck up and reign in on the creepy shit.

However criticising and slandering the game when he hasn't even played the game extensively is not okay.

 

[wyrdwad]

Being optional as actually pretty cool and a step up from a lot of games, but I can't help but be bothered by the fact it exists.

I think at this point my problem is with the people saying Matt (and others) don't have a right to criticize the game or its creator more than with the game its self. Suda51 has a right to make any kind of game he wants but people have the right, and in the case of journalists the duty (in my opinion), to tell him to grow the fuck up and reign in on the creepy shit.

As long as they'd be OK with him responding by saying something like, "No, I'd really rather not, I like this kind of stuff," and then NOT continue to push the matter, that's totally cool.

My only issue (aside from misrepresenting facts, which is really what started this whole brouhaha) is with those who are so convinced that something is unquestionably wrong, they simply won't accept the fact that some people feel differently, and will go out of their way to bash that thing repeatedly because it doesn't fall in line with their own personal moral standards.

-Tom

 

[reptilescorpio]

wyrdwad
XSEED Marketing

Right.

Looks like you can all stop getting mad that Matt called her a he, since he actually didn't do that.

Pretty sure people were getting irritated with Matt due to the video or the flippant response rather than saying "he".

 

[Bodom78]

Giving women flowers, booze and money for sex... this is just ludicrous, offensive and would never happen in the real world.

 

[homulilly]

Who said that he doesn't have a right to criticize Suda? I think what people are saying is that if you're going to do it then at least take the time to get your facts straight. I don't think that's asking too much from someone that says games journalism has lost its way and is apparently trying to do something to fix it.

The problem I'm seeing is people trying to use the fact Matt got some facts wrong to shut down debate altogether. From what we've seen (none of us can say anything for sure until the game is out) the facts he got wrong seemed pretty incidental and the overall picture is basically the same.

It isn't Suda that pitched the idea...it's his creative director, Shin Hideyuki.

Suda's also been quoted as ”It’s not that we depict the women in any derogatory way, so I’m not extremely concerned about the depiction of these characters,” he said. “I think if you play this mode for yourself, [then] you will be able to understand the context.”
I'm down for understanding context, rather than taking things to astronomical hilarity

It's true we don't know the entire context yet, fair enough. That said there are TONS of people who say that they're not being derogatory or sexist while... being derogatory and sexist and while Suda doesn't have the worst track record in the industry he also definitely doesn't have the best either.

 

[Astarte]

The problem I'm seeing is people trying to use the fact Matt got some facts wrong to shut down debate altogether. From what we've seen (none of us can say anything for sure until the game is out) the facts he got wrong seemed pretty incidental and the overall picture is basically the same.



It's true we don't know the entire context yet, fair enough. That said there are TONS of people who say that they're not being derogatory or sexist while... being derogatory and sexist and while Suda doesn't have the worst track record in the industry he also definitely doesn't have the best either.

Suda wasn't directly involved with Shadows of the Damned or Lollipop Chainsaw; he just had VERY minor input on both of them. Even when he wrote SotD, he was neutered by EA and absolutely shitwrecked into hating publishers. His last directed games were No More Heroes 1 and Liberation Maiden, so I don't understand what kind of "track record" you're talking about.

 

[ElNarez]

The problem is absolutely not about raising those questions, because those are getting absolutely necessary to address as more and more people of various genders, sexual orientations and cultural backgrounds start playing videogames. Seriously, if you think there's something wrong with wanting gaming to be more inclusive, fuck off.

The problem here is bad reporting. It's deliberately taking an element out of context, deliberately ignoring some of the facts surrounding it and using all kinds of inflammatory rhetoric to make your point. The mini-game is absolutely, completely and utterly skeevy. The conversation surrounding it is a conversation we need to have. (The big debate being, can you represent something abhorrent in a game without endorsing it, while still being engaging?) But you need to be completely honest and thorough in your reporting, as you would be for any other piece of news.

 

[Gun Animal]

Suda wasn't directly involved with Shadows of the Damned or Lollipop Chainsaw; he just had VERY minor input on both of them. Even when he wrote SotD, he was neutered by EA and absolutely shitwrecked into hating publishers. His last directed games were No More Heroes 1 and Liberation Maiden, so I don't understand what kind of "track record" you're talking about.

Didn't know about Liberation Maiden until literally this post. Went digging for information and

The player controls Shoko Ōzora a high school girl who became President of Japan---

Sold.

 

[MarkusRJR]

I just watched the video and read everything in the OP and I still don't get how some stupid side mode in a game removes all of Suda 51's credibility as a game director/developer (I actually laughed when the guy said that). He's famous due to his wacky and strange Japanese games and he just seems to be continuing that trend. I do see how it could be offensive to some, but by that standard a lot of Japanese games could be. If you're offended then don't play the game.

That's not even getting into that fact the guy in the OP's video took the mini game out of context and tried to make it look as bad as possible.

 

[KissVibes]

Pretty sure people were getting irritated with Matt due to the video or the flippant response rather than saying "he".

Pretty sure you missed some posts, friend.

My only issue (aside from misrepresenting facts, which is really what started this whole brouhaha) is with those who are so convinced that something is unquestionably wrong, they simply won't accept the fact that some people feel differently, and will go out of their way to bash that thing repeatedly because it doesn't fall in line with their own personal moral standards.

I feel like this could've been worded better and is open for easy attack.

 

[Astarte]

Didn't know about Liberation Maiden until literally this post. Went digging for information andSold.

My man

 

[PaulExcellent]

Didn't know about Liberation Maiden until literally this post. Went digging for information andSold.

The game is gold.
Seriously. It's fantastic.

 

[nkarafo]

This game looks all style but no substance.

 

[MemoryHumanity]

Why the fuck would anyone want to play that minigame?

 

[Giolon]

I was referring more to the fact that being personally involved with a project is going to color your opinion to some extent whether you want it to or not but fair enough.

I don't think anyone is saying that a game is automatically bad if it contains any problematic elements, but those elements or the people responsible for them are above criticism. You can't just use "well its intentionally ridiculous/not politically correct" to shut down discussion.

Furthermore problematic elements can be enough to ruin the experience for some people. To use an admittedly hyperbolic example: I'm a fan of the game XCOM: Enemy Unknown but if, all other things being the same, very map prominently featured graphic pro-life billboards with pictures of aborted fetuses I'm pretty sure I would not enjoy the game. Obviously gigolo mode isn't in any way the same thing as graphic billboards but hopefully you understand my point.

I'm glad you bring up escapism because I agree thats a pretty big draw for this kind of game (and most others if we're honest with ourselves). Unfortunately being ogled and given "gifts" with the expectation of sex is the exact opposite of escapism for a very large segment of the population which is why this thread exists and why I personally wont be buying this game.

Saying these elements are terrible, offensive, and/or should never be used or appear in a game isn't discussion either. So don't buy it. Why encourage other people to try to make those who DO want to buy it and enjoy it feel bad about it?

 

[homulilly]

As long as they'd be OK with him responding by saying something like, "No, I'd really rather not, I like this kind of stuff," and then NOT continue to push the matter, that's totally cool.

My only issue (aside from misrepresenting facts, which is really what started this whole brouhaha) is with those who are so convinced that something is unquestionably wrong, they simply won't accept the fact that some people feel differently, and will go out of their way to bash that thing repeatedly because it doesn't fall in line with their own personal moral standards.

-Tom

This is where we differ, I think. As long as someone continues doing something gross/creepy or whatever they deserve criticism for it. It doesn't have to (and shouldn't) stop just because the target goes "Yeah well I disagree." Sustained, repeated criticism is the only way ANYTHING changes. I don't really buy into moral relativism so yeah, you could have a different set of moral standards where being sexist is a-okay but your moral standards, ethical systems, "opinions", or whatever else you might call them aren't consequence free and if they're shit, well, they're shit and deserve to be called out as such.

Killer is Dead isn't really the best context to discuss this in since I obviously don't have all the information for the game since it isn't out but these issues are bigger than any one game and the more discussion that happens the better in my opinion.

It sucks that Matt got stuff wrong and this game probably doesn't deserve the the shitstorm happening right now (at least not yet, that still remains to be seen) but the games industry as a whole is still in pretty dire fucking straits with regard to gender issues so from my perspective, while accurate reporting is obviously what should happen, when fuckups do occur I'd rather they be people being a bit overzealous in their attempts to call out problematic content rather than the PR echo chamber most of the games press still is.

 

[Northeastmonk]

So he's calling the game shit because of an optional mode about mondo wanting to have sex with women. A mode that mirrors what takes place in real life bars where people regularly go to meet people of the opposite sex and have indiscriminate sex afterwards.
I don't fucking understand this dude.

If BioWare doesn't introduce sex, nothing else is approved.

 

[GuessMyUserName]

This is where we differ, I think. As long as someone continues doing something gross/creepy or whatever they deserve criticism for it. It doesn't have to (and shouldn't) stop just because the target goes "Yeah well I disagree." Sustained, repeated criticism is the only way ANYTHING changes.

The point is that it doesn't HAVE to change and that it shouldn't be forced to change.

Can you criticize them? Absolutely. But if they disagree with your criticism they don't have to do anything and if you don't like it then don't support it and leave it at that. Let the people who DO enjoy it have what they want.

 

[Gun Animal]

This game looks all style but no substance.

Notice how people say this whenever they don't understand a surrealist, post-modern or art-house movie or game. What C-Grade newspaper movie critic came up with the 'style over substance' line, anyways?

 

[homulilly]

Saying these elements are terrible, offensive, and/or should never be used or appear in a game isn't discussion either. So don't buy it. Why encourage other people to try to make those who DO want to buy it and enjoy it feel bad about it?

Because I like playing video games and I'd like the games industry to treat women with the same amount of respect they do for men which is currently not the case. People talk about how video games are supposed to be fun and I agree, that's why it'd be really swell if they stopped importing prejudice I already have to deal with in the real world.

Discussion occurs in discussing why certain elements are offensive, provided everyone involved discusses the topic in good faith which unfortunately isn't always the case (and I'll be the first to admit that there are people on both sides guilty of arguing in bad faith). When people are reasonable thats when productive discussion happens.

 

[homulilly]

The point is that it doesn't HAVE to change and that it shouldn't be forced to change.

Can you criticize them? Absolutely. But if they disagree with your criticism they don't have to do anything and if you don't like it then don't support it and leave it at that. Let the people who DO enjoy it have what they want.

I'm definitely not saying anything should be made illegal or the like, but I also don't think that the moment someone says "yeah okay well I don't care" they're exempt from any more criticism which, forgive me if I'm wrong, you seem to be implying.

Edit: I'm also not really going after people who play the game, mainly the people who made it or the people defending it. There's plenty of things I like where I'm able to go "yeah well this aspect is really shitty but I'm able to enjoy the rest of it".

 

[reptilescorpio]

I'm definitely not saying anything should be made illegal or the like, but I also don't think that the moment someone says "yeah okay well I don't care" they're exempt from any more criticism which, forgive me if I'm wrong, you seem to be implying.

Edit: I'm also not really going after people who play the game, mainly the people who made it or the people defending it. There's plenty of things I like where I'm able to go "yeah well this aspect is really shitty but I'm able to enjoy the rest of it".

What is your main issue with the mode, just so I know where you are coming from?

 

[GuessMyUserName]

I'm definitely not saying anything should be made illegal or the like, but I also don't think that the moment someone says "yeah okay well I don't care" they're exempt from any more criticism which, forgive me if I'm wrong, you seem to be implying.

You're not asking for it to become illegal, but what you're asking for the exact same result - you don't want these games to be made.

They aren't exempt from criticism, but they can disagree with it. Your criticism isn't absolute. What you want isn't what's "right", it's what you believe and if they don't agree with what you believe tough luck, you'll have to live with the fact that someone wants to do something you don't approve of. You don't have to give their game any more attention after that.

 

[Tekku]

Why the fuck would anyone want to play that minigame?

A good alternative I suppose for younglings who can't access the right internet pages due to parent lock?

 

[StevePharma]

You're not asking for it to become illegal, but what you're asking for the exact same result - you don't want these games to be made.

They aren't exempt from criticism, but they can disagree with it. Your criticism isn't absolute. What you want isn't what's "right", it's what you believe and if they don't agree with what you believe tough luck, you'll have to live with the fact that someone wants something you don't approve of. You don't have to give their game any more attention after that.

Exactly. I was listening to some rap music earlier this week and that stuff is FULL of misogyny. Then again, for all the people who don't like the music, there are a lot of them (like me) who do, and don't hurt anyone's feelings by just listening to it.

 

[toastyToast]

A good alternative I suppose for younglings who can't access the right internet pages due to parent lock?

So instead they convince their parents to buy them a $60, M-rated game to get their jollies instead.

I never understood this argument.

 

[theSlacker]

So instead they convince their parents to buy them a $60, M-rated game to get their jollies instead.

I never understood this argument.

Don't worry. It isn't so much an argument as it is diarrhea of the mouth.

 

[Mr.Monitor]

get their jollies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kshQWqEgJns

 

[Tekku]

So instead they convince their parents to buy them a $60, M-rated game to get their jollies instead.

I never understood this argument.

Lol, it was more a joke than a serious argument.

I don't really bother with this kind of stuff anymore. Sure it hits a sore spot on the western community, but If you don't like it then just don't buy it. And if japanese gamers like to feel horny when playing games then that's good for them.

 

[homulilly]

What is your main issue with the mode, just so I know where you are coming from?

Sneaking peaks at the women's breasts/crotch/etc, giving them gifts to try to convince them to have sex, and the hilariously awful pornographic sound effects going through the whole. It's entirely possible in this case it'll turn out to be a brilliant satire of the all the terrible porny shit in games, or it could turn out to just be gross porny shit. We wont know until the game's out.

As to why it's potentially problematic, well, treating women as "goals" to be achieved without any agency of their own is problematic especially since it's so incredibly widespread in games. Also, as ridiculous as it sounds there are actually a lot of men who, to varying degrees, actually think giving a woman attention or gifts entitles them to sex and get anywhere from sulky to outright violent when their advances are rebuffed. Obviously a game isn't going to turn anyone into a predator but this kind of thing (as well as TV and movies, of course) does help to normalize this kind of behavior and is part of the reason sexual assault isn't taken as seriously as it should be in pretty much every single culture in the world.

The other issue I have is that I am sick to death of the fact that the majority of games that feature any female characters feel the need to include porny shit whether its absurd proportions, sexualized costumes, naughty camera angles, or actual porny writing or mechanics. I'm fine with porn, I really am. Sometimes I even enjoy it. I'm even fine with there being porny games but it would be really nice if I could play games with female representation that DON'T have a bunch of porny stuff more than once in a blue moon. This isn't really a problem specifically with Killer Is Deadas a standalone game, but it's a problem with Killer Is Dead in the greater context of video games.


If the world wasn't full of creeps and I could actually think of the last game I played with decent female representation that wasn't sexualized then I wouldn't have any problem with Gigolo mode, but that's unfortunately not the world we live in and it's not the world games like Killer Is Dead exist in.

 

[Mindwipe]

People talk about how video games are supposed to be fun and I agree, that's why it'd be really swell if they stopped importing prejudice I already have to deal with in the real world.

There are absolutely massive issues in gender representation in videogames - the lack of strong female characters, the lack of sexy male characters, the way in which complex social issues on sexuality are censored by mainstream platforms...

Trying to argue that showing people hitting on each other is prejudice completely discredits you. Improve the gender issues in videogames by supporting a more diverse ecosystem, not by attacking and trying to censor games that reflect sexual identities.

For what it's worth, your arguments here have been so weak that I've gone and pre-ordered a game I previously had no interest in.

 

[StevePharma]

If the world wasn't full of creeps and I could actually think of the last game I played with decent female representation that wasn't sexualized then I wouldn't have any problem with Gigolo mode, but that's unfortunately not the world we live in and it's not the world games like Killer Is Dead exist in.

Maybe you should try Remember Me and tell me what you think.

 

[Big0Bear]

I think the guy has the right to voice his opinion but thats all it is. His videos are funny so I watch them but I could give a damn that he is offended or thinks something is bad when its just his opinion. I think I am still going to try this game out and if thats the worst thing about the game I could give a shit.

If anything Lolipop Chainsaw was ass and I really want to see Suda make something badass again (of course this is my opinion) Dont care about the Nigiri (or whatever her name is) cosplay shit just want to play a fun game and this game still looks pretty cool for me.

Now we just need Suda to make a game staring a black main character (yea I pulled it out of left field but would love to see it happen)

 

[homulilly]

You're not asking for it to become illegal, but what you're asking for the exact same result - you don't want these games to be made.

They aren't exempt from criticism, but they can disagree with it. Your criticism isn't absolute. What you want isn't what's "right", it's what you believe and if they don't agree with what you believe tough luck, you'll have to live with the fact that someone wants to do something you don't approve of. You don't have to give their game any more attention after that.

See my other post at http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=73337961&postcount=1639 for more detail.

It's not that I don't want these games to be made, it's that I want these games to be made less often. The vast majority of games treat women as sex objects to a varying degree and most of the games that don't sexualize women don't because they flat out don't have any women in them.

 

[toastyToast]

Lol, it was more a joke than a serious argument.

I don't really bother with this kind of stuff anymore. Sure it hits a sore spot on the western community, but If you don't like it then just don't buy it. And if japanese gamers like to feel horny when playing games then that's good for them.

It's all good. I find the "think of the children" arguments with reference to premium entertainment products (I say that because of the price) as well as having a rating descriptor that highlights that it's meant for adults extremely tiring. Adults are capable of choosing what they consume, shit, they should be having to put down their own money. We've got a wealth of information available to us with the internet. People should be exercising their ability to make informed decisions. If this mode really is that offensive, this game will be an abject failure and no one will ever try to pull this off again.

 

[Shaneus]

This is where we differ, I think. As long as someone continues doing something gross/creepy or whatever they deserve criticism for it.

Who's to tell me what's creepy/gross (or whatever) and what isn't? There are obvious hard lines in real-life situations but when it comes to media that's made for public consumption, if someone tells me something is "gross" or "creepy" without letting me judge for myself, damn right I'm going to stick up for it. Actually no, I'm not going to stick up for whatever said product is... I'm going to stick up for someone deciding for me what I should and shouldn't see. This hits too fucking close to home, being in Australia and having far too much shit censored/banned completely.

Edit: I'm also not really going after people who play the game, mainly the people who made it or the people defending it.

Why do you have to "go after" anyone? That there are things which can be considered objective and you feel the need to go after them says something about how close-minded you are, IMO.

 

[reptilescorpio]

Sneaking peaks at the women's breasts/crotch/etc, giving them gifts to try to convince them to have sex, and the hilariously awful pornographic sound effects going through the whole. It's entirely possible in this case it'll turn out to be a brilliant satire of the all the terrible porny shit in games, or it could turn out to just be gross porny shit. We wont know until the game's out.

As to why it's potentially problematic, well, treating women as "goals" to be achieved without any agency of their own is problematic especially since it's so incredibly widespread in games. Also, as ridiculous as it sounds there are actually a lot of men who, to varying degrees, actually think giving a woman attention or gifts entitles them to sex and get anywhere from sulky to outright violent when their advances are rebuffed. Obviously a game isn't going to turn anyone into a predator but this kind of thing (as well as TV and movies, of course) does help to normalize this kind of behavior and is part of the reason sexual assault isn't taken as seriously as it should be in pretty much every single culture in the world.

The other issue I have is that I am sick to death of the fact that the majority of games that feature any female characters feel the need to include porny shit whether its absurd proportions, sexualized costumes, naughty camera angles, or actual porny writing or mechanics. I'm fine with porn, I really am. Sometimes I even enjoy it. I'm even fine with there being porny games but it would be really nice if I could play games with female representation that DON'T have a bunch of porny stuff more than once in a blue moon. This isn't really a problem specifically with Killer Is Deadas a standalone game, but it's a problem with Killer Is Dead in the greater context of video games.


If the world wasn't full of creeps and I could actually think of the last game I played with decent female representation that wasn't sexualized then I wouldn't have any problem with Gigolo mode, but that's unfortunately not the world we live in and it's not the world games like Killer Is Dead exist in.

Thanks for detailing your thoughts out, I could sense there was a bigger picture than KiD you were talking about so this makes a lot more sense.

Like you said, all the pervy creepy shit is indeed pervy creepy shit. Unfortunately we are left waiting for the game out for complete context as we have some people who have played the game, worked on the game, who contextualise it in a manner that I am fine with while people like Matt say it is coming from another angle that can't actually be detailed to us at the moment which is annoying.

My gut feeling after playing other Suda games, as well as knowing a fair bit about the regular part of the game which has tons of strong female characters, is it will be on the positive side of making Mondo out to be a desperate loser, portraying him in a negative light so the player ends up feeling at the end of the Gigolo mode that the mindset of Mondo is one that should not the norm in society. They touched on this kind of thing in No More Heroes, how sad and pathetic Travis was, so Suda et al taking inspiration from James Bond seems to lead in this direction.

In the industry in general there is definitely still a problem as you say. Even though it has been a hot topic over the last 12 months there really hasn't been much improvement which is sad, gamers aren't voting with their dollars and stuff like Remember Me ends up in the bargain bin in less than a month. I really have no idea how to change this effectively, continued discussion is important but progress is very slow without some kind of stronger change taking place.

 

[Arc Christelle]

Now we just need Suda to make a game staring a black main character (yea I pulled it out of left field but would love to see it happen)

see Killer 7.

 

[Coxy]

I am so massively surprised to see a journalist retreat to his twitter echo chamber when called out over being factually incorrect. Completely gutless and scummy. What has bred this generation of game journalists who can never admit to making a mistake.

 

[reptilescorpio]

If anything Lolipop Chainsaw was ass and I really want to see Suda make something badass again (of course this is my opinion) Dont care about the Nigiri (or whatever her name is) cosplay shit just want to play a fun game and this game still looks pretty cool for me.

Now we just need Suda to make a game staring a black main character (yea I pulled it out of left field but would love to see it happen)

Suda didn't have much to do with Lollipop Chainsaw, he was fairly neutered with SotD too. This is his first real big project since No More Heroes.

Oddly enough the reveal for KiD made me think he would go with a blaxploitation angle! Seems like the kind of character he could make a great game with.

Spoiler

I realllllly want another Afro Samurai game and Grasshopper could make an insanely cool one!

 

[Big0Bear]

see Killer 7.

true but I want him to be the lead! not one of many personalities


on that note I want a count down until Kotaku gets a hold of this story...they love these kind of things.

 

[Big0Bear]

Suda didn't have much to do with Lollipop Chainsaw, he was fairly neutered with SotD too. This is his first real big project since No More Heroes.

Oddly enough the reveal for KiD made me think he would go with a blaxploitation angle! Seems like the kind of character he could make a great game with.

Spoiler

I realllllly want another Afro Samurai game and Grasshopper could make an insanely cool one!

SotD was ok I enjoyed it once but they had no new game + so I was sad, cant seem to get through chainsaw, I had no idea he was limited on making those makes me feel better about them now though.

On a side note is it just me or are they showing too much of his games in trailers now When I did play SotD most of the story was shown in trailers and KiD has had a lot of trailers too so....

 

[Gokurakumaru]

Giving women flowers, booze and money for sex... this is just ludicrous, offensive and would never happen in the real world.

Pretty much this. I don't think anybody in the audience is fool enough to believe Mondo represents all men or the materialistic girls he pursues represent all women, but a field trip to the nearest nightclub would show the content in the game is a mere parody of what goes on in the real world.

I don't really buy into moral relativism so yeah, you could have a different set of moral standards where being sexist is a-okay but your moral standards, ethical systems, "opinions", or whatever else you might call them aren't consequence free and if they're shit, well, they're shit and deserve to be called out as such.

You should buy into moral relativism because your entire sense of right and wrong is an illusion. Morals are a social construct. Even human rights, an idea most people can get on board with, fall apart outside of times of plenty, e.g. in a natural disaster. The fact that there are consequences is almost irrelevant.

 

[homulilly]

Thanks for detailing your thoughts out, I could sense there was a bigger picture than KiD you were talking about so this makes a lot more sense.

Like you said, all the pervy creepy shit is indeed pervy creepy shit. Unfortunately we are left waiting for the game out for complete context as we have some people who have played the game, worked on the game, who contextualise it in a manner that I am fine with while people like Matt say it is coming from another angle that can't actually be detailed to us at the moment which is annoying.

My gut feeling after playing other Suda games, as well as knowing a fair bit about the regular part of the game which has tons of strong female characters, is it will be on the positive side of making Mondo out to be a desperate loser, portraying him in a negative light so the player ends up feeling at the end of the Gigolo mode that the mindset of Mondo is one that should not the norm in society. They touched on this kind of thing in No More Heroes, how sad and pathetic Travis was, so Suda et al taking inspiration from James Bond seems to lead in this direction.

In the industry in general there is definitely still a problem as you say. Even though it has been a hot topic over the last 12 months there really hasn't been much improvement which is sad, gamers aren't voting with their dollars and stuff like Remember Me ends up in the bargain bin in less than a month. I really have no idea how to change this effectively, continued discussion is important but progress is very slow without some kind of stronger change taking place.

Yeah I completely admit that KiD could end up being great, it just doesn't look that way from the limited amount we've seen. The current industry climate w/r/t videogames makes me wary of anything that looks questionable which is why my current stance is to not buy until I hear some positive feedback from someone who's opinion on the subject I trust.

I've been talking about these issues in the context of KiD because that's the topic on GAF right now and I think continued discussion is important to making progress even if the going is pretty slow right now.

 

[N2NOther]

I'm offended by fuck all, I just find it creepy and weird. If a half-naked woman was slashed in half by a big ass sword I would find it disgusting, yes.

no-one in this thread has said that slashing a half-naked woman in half OK. So yes, it was a straw-man.

I'm saying its OK because why does it matter how dressed she is? Have you seen Friday the 13th The Final Chapter? 2 half naked and one whole naked men are killed in gruesome ways by Jason Voorhees, but so are 2 half naked and one whole naked woman. I guess this is sexist?

People are so overly sensitive and get offended for everything.

 

[Astarte]

true but I want him to be the lead! not one of many personalities


on that note I want a count down until Kotaku gets a hold of this story...they love these kind of things.

But Garcian IS the lead. Everything revolved around him.