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KILLZONE 2 - The |OT|

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
Remove:
Boost
Rockets/GL/Assault
20+ players
Cheap ass airbots

Add:
Dedicated Servers
More unlocks/taunts/etc
Spawn on any squad member
Bigger maps
Ability to see which classes all team members are using

Etc:
Either get rid of the spawn grenade or not allow some people to use it/add a tut
Leave all spawn points on all modes to be like cap/hold
Gameplay is fucking great. Do not make it an autoaim-fest like COD
 
H_Prestige said:
Boost + knife would lead to all kinds of BS.

In fact, boost + anything generally leads to BS.
Well fuck I completely forgot about Boost. Yeah, that'd be a rape machine, I would not like having to deal with.
 

DMeisterJ

Banned
Long post incoming:

The major problem(s) with KZ2 was that at the end of the day, the online mode was not as gratifying as it could have been. The MP is/was fun as hell, but because they did a lot of things that don't enhance the experience it turned people away from playing MP for a long time to come.

- Most importantly was forcing player X to use/kill with x skill, or score x amount of kills during x mission in a game instead of their being an overall number for it. What I mean is making someone get 5 kills with a turret 8 different times is stupid. Why should I be penalized for only getting 4 in a round by not getting a medal? So the four kills I worked damn hard to get mean nothing because I didn't get a fifth? Wow, that's stupid.

- Why is there a huge ass gap between the last two ranks experience wise? 10k and then 100k? Wow, thx. Instead of their being 10 ranks between them, it was one, and if I did ever make it to 10k, I sure as hell was not going to wait til 100k until I got a new level up. That's fucking stupid. Which leads me to my next point

- More smaller achievements should be rewarded in the game, like MW2. Don't follow it to a T, but reaching x threshold of kills or headshots with a weapon or in general and getting XP for it is nice, because it's not something you have to go out of your way to do, unlike getting 5 kills with Air Support, or turrets, which involves a bit more than playing normally. Basically, reward layers for playing the game and just dedicating time to it, not to doing things that require you to want to break your controller because you didn't reach the number you were supposed to in a match.

- More weapon variety was also needed. Let me have more than 10 weapons in a game to choose from, and don't make one of them have to be a pistol. When I played Scout on KZ2, using the pistol at close range, or hoping for a no scope kill was terrible, especially before I unlocked the magnum. It made fights when you saw someone coming to where you were very hard because unless you have the drop on someone, or get a headshot, you're going to lose against an assault rifle.

- The lag (no explanation necessary)

- Finding a game. I'm not sure how they amended this with the patches, but not knowing what maps were in rotation, how far along a game was, how long the game was, before joining it was stupid. Especially when there is no matchmaking, you need to have this info on hand so I don't join a game where one team is getting killed, or join a game that is already over, or join a game that has 30 minutes for each gametype :/

- Classes also needed balance (but that's been adressed ad nauseum)

- More post release support would have been appreciated. As FFO said, Double exp weekends would have been nice (would surely help to get to 100k :/), and the map support was nice, but it seems as if that train has stopped forever. I think they should have went Halo 3's route and released a few maps every few months, not six within 4 months of release.

--

Yeesh, that was a lot.
 

JB1981

Member
Really good post, DMeister. I still haven't unlocked all the ribbons in KZ2 and I probably never will. It was too much of a chore, really.
 

TheFatOne

Member
FFObsessed said:
ISA get an advantage on BG? Funny, coz a lot of people say the opposite and that the Helghast get an advantage on BG. Basically, the strength of your team matters a lot more than which side you're on. If you can't plant on one side it's due to your team failing rather than an unbalanced map. But you are right, the simple fact that they're not symmetrical means you can't actually make sure which side you're planting on is "fair" when compared t the other. Hence why Saluman Market is the best map in the game. It practically is symmetrical.

You and I both know the ISA get the advantage on S&D in BG. You can plant a fucking sniper in you own base and stop them from scoring. Not only that but you can use the exploit where I can shoot people going down the helghan stairs.Yea Saluman Market is the best map in Killzone 2. The only thing I don't like are the turrets. One has a free view while the other is partially blocked if I remember correctly.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
alr1ghtstart said:
Remove:
Boost
Rockets/GL/Assault
20+ players
Cheap ass airbots

Add:
Dedicated Servers
More unlocks/taunts/etc
Spawn on any squad member
Bigger maps
Ability to see which classes all team members are using

Etc:
Either get rid of the spawn grenade or not allow some people to use it/add a tut
Leave all spawn points on all modes to be like cap/hold
Gameplay is fucking great. Do not make it an autoaim-fest like COD

Dedicated spawn points on the map that Tacticians can capture (if you have more tacticians, you can capture more spawn points, WITHOUT having tacticians fighting over two measly spawn grenades or having some dumbfuck retard fucking up the spawns by placing them backwards or wasting them in useless spots), make them properly spaced between each other and between them and the objectives. Tactician incompetence pretty much kills the experience. The problem is most people don't play as a team, don't understand the point of superior fire power or the need to establish superior fire power, everybody is just out to do their own thing, works for most shooters that just let you get kills, but Killzone 2 MP is NOT about kills, it's about WINNING, it's about overrunning points on the map that give you a tactical superiority, and sometimes you can't overrun a location without dying a few times, and a lot of people don't get that.

People are too into constant rewards and getting kills that team-based shooters just don't work as well, most people just want to go all lonewolf and get XP for every fucking little shit thing they do, it's all about kill streaks and K/D nowadays.
 

Moobabe

Member
I wouldn't remove assualt/boost altogether. It could have been a really interesting class but it never made sense to me; The class has the most health, the most powerful weapons with splash damage AND can move the quickest?

If they were substantially slower and didn't have boost then I could have lived with that.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
TheFatOne said:
You and I both know the ISA get the advantage on S&D in BG. You can plant a fucking sniper in you own base and stop them from scoring. Not only that but you can use the exploit where I can shoot people going down the helghan stairs.Yea Saluman Market is the best map in Killzone 2. The only thing I don't like are the turrets. One has a free view while the other is partially blocked if I remember correctly.

It's all about getting the spawns up at the inner target and overrunning the area, you can't win without doing that, most of the time people get too spread out. In BG is all about setting ONE spawn at the same spot, keeping the rotation going, and to never let it run out, have enough people constantly spawning out of there to always prevent the other team from getting even remotely near the spawn, establishing massive superiority in fire-power and concentrating it in a small area. Most of the time teams lose because they get sloppy and greedy for kills, trying to be too clever, and people don't move together.
 

fallagin

Member
DMeisterJ said:
Long post incoming:



- Most importantly was forcing player X to use/kill with x skill, or score x amount of kills during x mission in a game instead of their being an overall number for it. What I mean is making someone get 5 kills with a turret 8 different times is stupid. Why should I be penalized for only getting 4 in a round by not getting a medal? So the four kills I worked damn hard to get mean nothing because I didn't get a fifth? Wow, that's stupid.


- More weapon variety was also needed. Let me have more than 10 weapons in a game to choose from, and don't make one of them have to be a pistol. When I played Scout on KZ2, using the pistol at close range, or hoping for a no scope kill was terrible, especially before I unlocked the magnum. It made fights when you saw someone coming to where you were very hard because unless you have the drop on someone, or get a headshot, you're going to lose against an assault rifle.

- The lag (no explanation necessary)

- Finding a game. I'm not sure how they amended this with the patches, but not knowing what maps were in rotation, how far along a game was, how long the game was, before joining it was stupid. Especially when there is no matchmaking, you need to have this info on hand so I don't join a game where one team is getting killed, or join a game that is already over, or join a game that has 30 minutes for each gametype :/

- Classes also needed balance (but that's been adressed ad nauseum)

- More post release support would have been appreciated. As FFO said, Double exp weekends would have been nice (would surely help to get to 100k :/), and the map support was nice, but it seems as if that train has stopped forever. I think they should have went Halo 3's route and released a few maps every few months, not six within 4 months of release.

--

Yeesh, that was a lot.

These are exactly what needs to be changed. Great post.
 

KZObsessed

Member
TheFatOne said:
You and I both know the ISA get the advantage on S&D in BG. You can plant a fucking sniper in you own base and stop them from scoring. Not only that but you can use the exploit where I can shoot people going down the helghan stairs.Yea Saluman Market is the best map in Killzone 2. The only thing I don't like are the turrets. One has a free view while the other is partially blocked if I remember correctly.

You can have a sniper in the Helghast base and snipe the planter of the outside S&D map, I've done it myself. You could also argue that having the entire defensive force situated in one small area is harder than fighting against them spread out. Depends how good they are, or how good your team is/isn't. What is really unbalanced about BG is Assassination Defend. The Helghast are screwed whereas the ISA have two great places to hide. One, in the corridor underneath the stairs, and even better place in the hole underneath the stairs on the top floor. There's only 2 ways to entry points as well. Definitely the most unbalanced map.

commish said:
Of course I agree with the idea of more players being better for us players, but from a developer standpoint, does it make much difference? With Killzone 3 being years away (I guess 2011), any player goodwill earned now won't be remembered in a few years time. It's not as if players will suddenly start buying more of KZ2 (or KZ3 at release bc of this). I'd guess that 95%+ of KZ2's sales have already occurred, so I don't blame GG if they divert their attention towards their next game.

Besides, experience in this game is largely useless after a certain point, so I doubt if it'd draw anyone back, let alone a significant number to make a difference to anyone. And even if someone were to be drawn back by the double xp, what makes you think they'd stick around after that weekend? If it takes something like more xp to bring someone back, then I doubt they are gonna play longer than a day or two anyway.

From a player perspective, it can't hurt, so why not. From a developer perspective, it's largely pointless.

I honestly don't understand why you would defend a developer for not bothering. How do you know people would just stop playing after the double experience week? You don't know, that's why you try! It could get some people to buy the game if their friends they see their friends playing it. It could get people to buy some DLC and make Guerrilla Games some money. And for the little effort of a double experience week + a blog post, it doesn't make sense not to do it.
 
alr1ghtstart said:
Remove:
Boost
Rockets/GL/Assault
20+ players
Cheap ass airbots

Add:
Dedicated Servers
More unlocks/taunts/etc
Spawn on any squad member
Bigger maps
Ability to see which classes all team members are using

Etc:
Either get rid of the spawn grenade or not allow some people to use it/add a tut
Leave all spawn points on all modes to be like cap/hold
Gameplay is fucking great. Do not make it an autoaim-fest like COD
I agree with lot of those suggestions. 24 players would be nice if the map is big though.
For spawn on any squad member that gets a huge plus from me instead of spawning with those spawn grenades. I had tons of fun with the squad system in BFBC2 and it definitely works.

I pretty much agree with all but 20+ players. Maybe limit depending on map sizes.
 

KZObsessed

Member
DMeisterJ said:
- Most importantly was forcing player X to use/kill with x skill, or score x amount of kills during x mission in a game instead of their being an overall number for it. What I mean is making someone get 5 kills with a turret 8 different times is stupid. Why should I be penalized for only getting 4 in a round by not getting a medal? So the four kills I worked damn hard to get mean nothing because I didn't get a fifth? Wow, that's stupid.

This was to get people to learn how to use the classes effectively and consistently. It's just that some of them ended up being far too hard. I agree the turrets/air drones should have been a total amount of kills not 5 kills a game. Everyone just cheated to get them.

- Why is there a huge ass gap between the last two ranks experience wise? 10k and then 100k? Wow, thx. Instead of their being 10 ranks between them, it was one, and if I did ever make it to 10k, I sure as hell was not going to wait til 100k until I got a new level up. That's fucking stupid. Which leads me to my next point

Those were the hardcore ranks they added after the game shipped. I also agree that 5k, 10k, 100k was a pretty stupid jump, don't understand why they did that.

- More smaller achievements should be rewarded in the game, like MW2. Don't follow it to a T, but reaching x threshold of kills or headshots with a weapon or in general and getting XP for it is nice, because it's not something you have to go out of your way to do, unlike getting 5 kills with Air Support, or turrets, which involves a bit more than playing normally. Basically, reward layers for playing the game and just dedicating time to it, not to doing things that require you to want to break your controller because you didn't reach the number you were supposed to in a match.

It's an objective based game, you should NOT be rewarding people based on how many kills and headshots they get, over the normal points reward anyway. That would just encourage camping and not bothering with the objectives. What they should do is reward people more for completing the OBJECTIVES. And not just the one who, lets say, delivers the speaker. But the people who escort him and kill those attacking. Like in MW2 where you get extra points for "rescuing" a teammate, they should do that for the objective carriers/planters/defusers etc to encourage people to do the objectives and NOT just get kills. So I guess that's one thing they should look at MW2 for. :p

- More weapon variety was also needed. Let me have more than 10 weapons in a game to choose from, and don't make one of them have to be a pistol. When I played Scout on KZ2, using the pistol at close range, or hoping for a no scope kill was terrible, especially before I unlocked the magnum. It made fights when you saw someone coming to where you were very hard because unless you have the drop on someone, or get a headshot, you're going to lose against an assault rifle.

And so you should lose against an assault rifle at close range if you have a Sniper Rifle wtf. Part of the skill of using the Scout class is trying to make sure you aren't hunted down and flanked and if you are then the ability to take him down with the M4. Epic. The Scout should not in any way be allowed to carry an Assault Rifle as well as a Sniper rifle. A cloak plus Sniper + Assault Rifle would be far too overpowered. Maybe you could have a machine pistol and that wouldn't be too bad but Christ man no no no. Just because you die and get frustrated doesn't mean something should be changed.

- The lag (no explanation necessary)

DEDICATED SERVERS PLZ

- Finding a game. I'm not sure how they amended this with the patches, but not knowing what maps were in rotation, how far along a game was, how long the game was, before joining it was stupid. Especially when there is no matchmaking, you need to have this info on hand so I don't join a game where one team is getting killed, or join a game that is already over, or join a game that has 30 minutes for each gametype :/

The Search options in the game were terrible. If players have the freedom to change everything then I need search options detailed enough for me to search for any potential combination.

- Classes also needed balance (but that's been adressed ad nauseum)

- More post release support would have been appreciated. As FFO said, Double exp weekends would have been nice (would surely help to get to 100k :/), and the map support was nice, but it seems as if that train has stopped forever. I think they should have went Halo 3's route and released a few maps every few months, not six within 4 months of release.

Agreed. I hate map packs usually. I would have preferred more gameplay enhancements, co-op mode, different game modes, anything really. More creative than just map packs.

My responses in the quote boxes.
 

KZObsessed

Member
Kittonwy said:
People are too into constant rewards and getting kills that team-based shooters just don't work as well, most people just want to go all lonewolf and get XP for every fucking little shit thing they do, it's all about kill streaks and K/D nowadays.

Yep keep that ADHD MW2 bullshit out of here plz


We need to play KZ2 sometime kitton, don't really like U2 online and I've played it enough. Can't stand MW2. Do you have a code for BFBC2 Beta? That's a pretty awesome team based game, I definitely need to play that some more.
 

Facism

Member
despite all the issues with KZ2 mp, it's still the best console MP i've ever had the pleasure of playing.

Good times with the GAFe and GAFa guys.

If there is one thing i'd like them to do, is when they release a mappack, don't lock me out of playing with friends because a DLC map is in rotation. If FFO, Lince, Raist etc are playing on Salamun market, and Bullshit Train is 4 maps away in the rotation, i should be able to play with them until DLC map comes up. That sick joke pretty much killed all my enthusiasm and time with KZ2.
 

TheFatOne

Member
FFObsessed said:
You can have a sniper in the Helghast base and snipe the planter of the outside S&D map, I've done it myself. You could also argue that having the entire defensive force situated in one small area is harder than fighting against them spread out. Depends how good they are, or how good your team is/isn't. What is really unbalanced about BG is Assassination Defend. The Helghast are screwed whereas the ISA have two great places to hide. One, in the corridor underneath the stairs, and even better place in the hole underneath the stairs on the top floor. There's only 2 ways to entry points as well. Definitely the most unbalanced map.

Yes that is true, but its much easier to kill the sniper at the Helghast side than it is to kill the one at the ISA side. It's the combination of different things in maps that give the advantage to one side. It's not only BG but HI, CC,and a couple of other maps the the ISA have the advantage in S&D. GG needs to rethink how they made the maps in Killzone 2. The maps just suck ass.

Kittonwy said:
It's all about getting the spawns up at the inner target and overrunning the area, you can't win without doing that, most of the time people get too spread out. In BG is all about setting ONE spawn at the same spot, keeping the rotation going, and to never let it run out, have enough people constantly spawning out of there to always prevent the other team from getting even remotely near the spawn, establishing massive superiority in fire-power and concentrating it in a small area. Most of the time teams lose because they get sloppy and greedy for kills, trying to be too clever, and people don't move together.

Yea except there is one huge problem other tacticians. They always fuck up the spawn points/rotation. In every game I have ever played with you Kitton someone always screws up the spawn points.

Facism said:
despite all the issues with KZ2 mp, it's still the best console MP i've ever had the pleasure of playing.

Good times with the GAFe and GAFa guys.

If there is one thing i'd like them to do, is when they release a mappack, don't lock me out of playing with friends because a DLC map is in rotation. If FFO, Lince, Raist etc are playing on Salamun market, and Bullshit Train is 4 maps away in the rotation, i should be able to play with them until DLC map comes up. That sick joke pretty much killed all my enthusiasm and time with KZ2.

Ohh yea that is another retarded decision GG made. That is the number one reason why I don't play those maps. What is the point if I can't play them with my friends. The more I think about Killzone 3 the more I realize that they have to improve a ton in the multi player department before I even consider buying it.

Edit: matter of fact why didn't GG include some sort of tutorial for MP. This game could have used it.
 

KZObsessed

Member
TheFatOne said:
matter of fact why didn't GG include some sort of tutorial for MP. This game could have used it.

They have the offline bot mode for people to practice with before they go online, but that's a good idea actually, they could have a tutorial mode in the offline bot games which teaches people what to do during the objectives and how to place a goddamn spawn point!

Facism said:
despite all the issues with KZ2 mp, it's still the best console MP i've ever had the pleasure of playing.

Good times with the GAFe and GAFa guys.

If there is one thing i'd like them to do, is when they release a mappack, don't lock me out of playing with friends because a DLC map is in rotation. If FFO, Lince, Raist etc are playing on Salamun market, and Bullshit Train is 4 maps away in the rotation, i should be able to play with them until DLC map comes up. That sick joke pretty much killed all my enthusiasm and time with KZ2.

The implementation of the map packs were some of the worst I've ever seen. On top of what you mentioned they removed the search feature early on where you could search for specific maps within a rotation. Because of that you couldn't actually search for games with the DLC maps in with the retail maps. So you bought some DLC maps and never really got to play them except separately. And because of what you mentioned people would rarely include them in the rotation because people couldn't join and paly the other games without buying them. Really was bullshit. Not that they were worth playing to be honest. I got the trophies and never went back.

Plz play some KZ2 with me sometime Live. So ronery ;_;

I'll let you bukkake me. Just once tho. And no talking during or after.
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
FFObsessed said:
I honestly don't understand why you would defend a developer for not bothering. How do you know people would just stop playing after the double experience week? You don't know, that's why you try! It could get some people to buy the game if their friends they see their friends playing it. It could get people to buy some DLC and make Guerrilla Games some money. And for the little effort of a double experience week + a blog post, it doesn't make sense not to do it.

I'm not defending them at all. I'm just saying how I think they see it. As a player, I'd like to see as many population-building promotions as possible.

And while everyone is listing their grievances with the game, I will hop on board. My #1 grievance is with tacticians, and the fact that dumbasses can place spawn locations in stupid places. I don't need the constant rewards to keep me playing. Just look at the best FPS over the years. They are great not because of gimmicky rewards, but great maps and gameplay. Millions of people didn't play CS for something to unlock.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
FFObsessed said:
Yep keep that ADHD MW2 bullshit out of here plz


We need to play KZ2 sometime kitton, don't really like U2 online and I've played it enough. Can't stand MW2. Do you have a code for BFBC2 Beta? That's a pretty awesome team based game, I definitely need to play that some more.

Yeah I wanna play sometime this week. I miss the obj games so much.


CURAHEE.
 

sun-drop

Member
i'd love some spec ops style co-op DLC for KZ2 ..it's still far and away the best looking FPS, and the maps are unrivailed.

keep the DLC coming.
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
Ah, we are offering suggestions again? Ok, I have a new, simple one.

- Cut and paste Bad Company 2 into Killzone 3 engine, replacing environment/characters/vehicles/weapons according to the Killzone universe. Stick with "High Precision" controls and bring cover system to MP.
 
TTP said:
Ah, we are offering suggestions again? Ok, I have a new, simple one.

- Cut and paste Bad Company 2 into Killzone 3 engine, replacing environment/characters/vehicles/weapons according to the Killzone universe. Stick with "High Precision" controls and bring cover system to MP.
Interesting, but no. KZ2's infrastructure is fine/better than BFBC2 with the right work done to it. Cover system would be an annoyance and would simply serve to slow down gameplay.

@Kittonwy: Although I absolutely agree that KZ2 is all about winning the objectives, a player's K/D, accuracy and KPH go a long way towards suggesting how effectively they can do so. When I played in clan matches with my clan, I would usually let others take the tactician role even though I can do a damn good job of it myself...I did this because it would allow me to be at the frontline, simply holding the other team back while we would carry out the objectives. If I wasn't any good at the core shooting and killing, my team would get overwhelmed.
 
If i'm going to play bad company, I will play bad company. rather like they tried to be unique with what the created in KZ2. Some of it didn't work out but being original is a big plus in my book. For KZ3 I rather see them take the critiques of 2 and improve on it, not just copy another game.
 
TTP said:
Ah, we are offering suggestions again? Ok, I have a new, simple one.

- Cut and paste Bad Company 2 into Killzone 3 engine, replacing environment/characters/vehicles/weapons according to the Killzone universe. Stick with "High Precision" controls and bring cover system to MP.
Two Words: Hell no. BBC beta is pretty terrible. Now if it's sound your talking about, hell to the yeah. Otherwise NO.
 

KZObsessed

Member
TacticalFox88 said:
Two Words: Hell no. BBC beta is pretty terrible. Now if it's sound your talking about, hell to the yeah. Otherwise NO.

Yeah dawg needs sum killstreaks or sum shit so I can nuke sum mutha fuckers

...

BFBC2 is amazing. It's a tactical team based shooter than just works well. Nothing about it is cheap, it's not about camping and getting as many cheap kills as possible, it's all about working together for the win. Never a cluster fuck. Fun as hell.

Having said that, nothing is better than KZ2. So KZ3 should be nothing more than KZ2 much improved with some new and original ideas thrown in to keep it fresh and interesting.
 

Fersis

It is illegal to Tag Fish in Tag Fishing Sanctuaries by law 38.36 of the GAF Wildlife Act
FFObsessed said:
:lol :lol

There we go, right on time!

KZ2 WEEKEND!!!1 WOHOO! Gonna play tons then, who's gonna join me?
Ill join you. (Havent played KZ2 in ages and i dont have any map pack :/)
 

KZObsessed

Member
alr1ghtstart said:
meh, it's not like this double xp weekend will get me anywhere close to 100k.

Not like it's going to hurt tho right? KZ2 FOR EVERYONE!

FFObsessed
Sexy Fersis
rc94
Dave1988
Seph

I expect to see Live, Lince and Kittonwy there, or disciplinary action will be taken.
sexy spankings
 

Fersis

It is illegal to Tag Fish in Tag Fishing Sanctuaries by law 38.36 of the GAF Wildlife Act
FFObsessed said:
Not like it's going to hurt tho right? KZ2 FOR EVERYONE!

FFObsessed
Sexy Fersis
rc94
Dave1988
Seph

I expect to see Live, Lince and Kittonwy there, or disciplinary action will be taken.
sexy spankings
-__-

Are you sure thats me?
 

andycapps

Member
Haven't played this game in months.. but the double XP and the sale on the map pack may have me buying it. I'm always a sucker for specials on Steam, if Sony did this more they'd have me buying more. There is just too much to play, Modern Warfare 2 (I know, so popular in this thread.. :lol ), Uncharted 2, Battlefield beta that I just got yesterday and haven't had time to check out yet, and maybe this.. Wow.
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
I'll be on as well. Jet-lagged as hell, but screw it - I bought the DLC packs and should probably play them at least once :p
 
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