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[Mengy]

Well, I bought the full version with the guarantee that I can return it if I don’t like it, so I figured it was worth the chance. And as of now it looks like I will be returning it, probably this weekend as I really don’t want to play it anymore, after only two nights no less. The excitement is gone, it just feels like a bland RTS game now. There is some good and some bad, but it’s the gameplay that ruins it for me.

The Good:

1. graphics are done well, not mind blowing or the best out there, but good enough to make it nice to look at.

2. I like the way the cities are done now, with the militia being inside the walls and the components visible and able to be attacked. Gets rid of townstealing for good.

3. The pace of the game has been quickened, should make for shorter games


The BAD:

1. predetermined settle spots. this one single change has ruined most of the feel and strategy of the game, and that’s no understatement. This ONE change makes the game a rush game from the get go, and eliminates every strategy except for the all military from the first second. If you get one less city than your opponent, you will lose. If you both manage to acquire the same number of cities at the start, as soon as you lose just one you have lost the game. There are no “great comebacks” in K2, once you start losing it is over. Not being able to settle on your own gives this game a waterfall effect that ruins the fun and excitement IMHO. It used to be that when you got into enemy territory you felt it, now it just doesn’t have that feeling anymore.

2. Flanking is gone. With the increased retreat ability, flanks are now useless. If you find youself flanked just retreat back a little bit to draw the enemy companies forward. Flanking used to be a devastating tactic, now it’s just a minor annoyance. The fast retreat also makes it very hard to actually kill a company, they run away faster than even cavalry can catch up.

3. The units. Each faction in Kohan used to have a personality and a battle tactic due to the way each played differently. Now they all feel too similar, and I think it’s due to the units. The variety in companies is practically nonexistent now, it seems like it’s become a numbers game rather than a tactics game.


Kohan 2 is a decent game, but it’s gameplay is vastly inferior to it’s predecessor, and that’s both sad and pathetic. I’ve played more hours of KAG than I can count, but K2 has me bored already only after 2 nights. I just can’t seem to find a reason to justify keeping it, so back it goes. If the GA crew all gets it and starts playing it, I won’t be joining you guys this time.



Has anyone else actually played the full version? Did you like it?

 

[Wellington]

There are no “great comebacks” in K2, once you start losing it is over. Not being able to settle on your own gives this game a waterfall effect that ruins the fun and excitement IMHO. It used to be that when you got into enemy territory you felt it, now it just doesn’t have that feeling anymore.

Well said. That's exactly what it was. "ZOP." "Found some back country." "Send all troops to the ZOP." That was exciting.

As you may or may not know, some of the regular KAG players have been engaged in a battle of words over at another forum as to the quality of the title. We list complaints similar to the ones you have expressed, they turn it around and say that those are good things. I don't think you were as hardcore as some of the rest of us, but you definitely knew the game well, so it's nice to get a different point of view.

Personally, I'm just totally miffed about some of the changes. Gone is a playstyle like yours and G-Art's for example, where you guys were incredible tacticians and were able to beat many of us with flanking techniques, rotating armies, or attacking in various formations. And also, now it's much harder to play with I guess, Hito's style for example where he would heavily rely on modifiers and stat bonuses. I dunno. From my time with the demo and the beta(s) it just seems like we were pigeonholed into one style of gameplay, and that alone would be the only way to win (stock up on resources, attack in a huge force... hence drawing the Warcraft comparison).

Hey now that Coot is back online, I'm definitely up for some games of KAG, and if you guys want to try some of the demo I'm up for it.

Kinda sad what happened here though, what was so excellent about the first was that while everything appeared to be so simple, there were so many layers under the skin to explore and so many different ways to do it. Feels like I am being told how to play rather than just left to my own devices. I never nailed down my own style in Kohan and rather played however would benefit the team, now the choices are: be the money guy, be the army guy.

 

[MrAngryFace]

IVE BEEN BACK FOR 2 DAYS AND NO ONE HAS OFFERED KOHAN! FUCKERS!

I agree tho, it was fun being able to play the game different ways to win. *GUU SIGH*

 

[teepo]

oh how great kag was

 

[Mrbob]

Good info, here. I didn't like how Kohan was set up so I may give the demo a try. Watered down RTSing isn't a bad thing in my book. On a related note, have you guys seen Tom Chick's post on the main page of QT3? Damn you and your anti Kohan II smear campaign! :lol

 

[MrAngryFace]

I think a big problem is this. RTS games are blah these days. Even the good ones follow the formula so close its become boring to play the same game over and over again. KAG offered an alternative I wasnt tired of yet. I wanted more KAG but enhanced like almost every other sequel to a game.

Not a Kohan Warcraft MOD

 

[sohka88]

I agree with the first post. Not being able to settle anywhere is a HUGE mistake. too bad.

 

[Mrbob]

I think a big problem is this. RTS games are blah these days. Even the good ones follow the formula so close its become boring to play the same game over and over again. KAG offered an alternative I wasnt tired of yet. I wanted more KAG but enhanced like almost every other sequel to a game.

Not a Kohan Warcraft MOD

Pretty much. That is why I'm going to go pick up Rome: Total War soon and wait for Kohan II and DoW to drop in price (Sorry Bish). Rome: Total War looks highly polished and extremely different than all other RTS games I have played.

I can see why Kohan fans could be pissed about Kohan 2. Just from all the previews/reviews/info I have read on the game, I can tell the game has been dumbed down 'for the masses' so to speak. No offense to Timegate, but if I want to play a Warcraft clone, I'll play WCIIITFT (Which I think does some nice things to branch off from basic RTS games. Especially the bonus campaigns.).

RTS games haven't been doing much for me either lately. Maybe I'm just frustrated that I see some really good RTS games coming out lately, but not the sequel to the one RTS game I really want a sequel for (Starcraft).

 

[Mengy]

Gone is a playstyle like yours and G-Art's for example, where you guys were incredible tacticians and were able to beat many of us with flanking techniques, rotating armies, or attacking in various formations. And also, now it's much harder to play with I guess, Hito's style for example where he would heavily rely on modifiers and stat bonuses. I dunno. From my time with the demo and the beta(s) it just seems like we were pigeonholed into one style of gameplay, and that alone would be the only way to win (stock up on resources, attack in a huge force... hence drawing the Warcraft comparison).

Yeah, that's probably why I'm not enjoying K2. I always like using my armies strategically, drawing enemies one way while flanking them from another, etc. In K2 that seems to be very minimized. I think the crowded maps also contribute to this, K2 just feels small compared to KAG.

 

[Razoric]

Hail to the king baby.

 

[Wellington]

Among hardcore Kohan fans who played the beta, there seems to be some sort of whispering smear campaign. They've violated their NDAs to publicly declare that the game is awful, that's it's dumbed down, that it's lacking in strategy, that there are problems with the AI, that it's ugly, that it has bad breath, and that it will kick your dog. I don't have a dog, so I can't address that last one. But otherwise, these allegations are entirely specious. Consider that the people making them haven't even played the actual game.

My guess is that they played an early version and didn't care for it. Or perhaps they resent Timegate not kissing their feet. Maybe one of the developers stole someone's girlfriend. Who knows. But for whatever the reason, the whispering beta testers have done their damage: RTS junkies are just the sort of people who can help Timegate in this crucial first week of the game's release, and they're just the sort of people who are going to be swayed by what some disillusioned beta tester posted on some backwater forum. With fans like those, who needs detractors.

See now this is just fucking terrible. Read carefully, Tom: there is no smear campaign against KoW. Honestly, I don't even get it anymore. He hits Evilore with ad hominem attacks in order to discredit him, apologizes over PM after we post how terrible an argument it was, and then he attacks Evilore again on the forum, and now attacks the hardcore fans for feeling what we do about the game? Ridiculous.

Part of the problem is that, yeah, some of us didn't expect as drastic a departure from KAG as it turned out to be, but at the same time, it kept very little, if any, of what made the originals such classics and KIS game of the year. And on top of that, some of the additions that they included to make the game better than the originals just didn't pan out as well as they should have, and actually turned out to be better in other games. The whole idea behind making set settlement spots was to have defined points of contention, like what Dawn of War does with the requisition points. It doesn't work as well with KoW because of the wall mechanics, and the militia within the city. Founts are much more fun to attack/defend.

I don't even want to get into it until I have the final version of the game so Tom doesn't pull out his 'privvy to the final version of the game' bullshit, but he is blind to some of the problems in the game. Kudos to Timegate for making the game that they wanted to make, but it really did just become a generic RTS game.

You'd think that if anyone wanted to give TGS the benefit of the doubt, it'd be the guy that went to E3 two straight years just for Kohan 2. Personally, I think DoW is the better game out this week. I'm waiting until Axis & Allies though.

 

[Mengy]

The whole idea behind making set settlement spots was to have defined points of contention, like what Dawn of War does with the requisition points. It doesn't work as well with KoW because of the wall mechanics, and the militia within the city. Founts are much more fun to attack/defend.

Please tell me that's not why they went with set city points? It had to be some difficulty with the new city design or graphic limitation, and not just because they wanted "defined points of contention"?

KAG had defined points of contention too, but they were set by the terrain and by the cities placed in logical, defendable positions by the PLAYERS, not the CPU. The battlefield was a dynamic place for combat, but the military points of interest were almost always created by the players. You never knew what to expect, cities could be captured, razed and rebuilt in new places, discovered in places where you had been before, it was DYNAMIC. That was a HUGE part of the game's charm and draw. All of that is absolutely gone in K2. Discovered cities will always be there, and you can't place new ones in key strategic locations. And the argument of "you can place forts instead of cities now" just doesn't cut it. Losing a fort at a key mountain pass does not have the impact that losing a citadel does.

I don't think they realized just how bad that one decision affected the entire game. It sounds like they had tons of warnings too, but just didn't care enough to change it. That's why it had to be more than a game concept decision, there MUST have been some technical reason...

 

[EviLore]

Sigh, kohan 2...


;(

 

[MrAngryFace]

Timegate wanted a game that would sell better than KAG, they most likely have it. What a cost tho. Jesus.

 

[Sinatar]

You know the existance of Kohan 2 doesn't cause your KAG discs to burst into flames and melt away forever. You feel like playing KAG, its always there to play. K2 is its own game, much like any RTS sequel is, its a departure from its predecessor while maintaining many of the hallmarks of its forebearers.

 

[Shouta]

I really should go over to the QT3 forums and slap some of those apologists up badly.

The game still has many of the problems it had in early beta stages and all of the incredibly great features are gone that made KAG just so wonderful. There are a few things that are better but those are mostly frivolous (before/after tallies of resource usage, combat effiency and morale of units gauged in bars and a clear rout point shown, and a few other things).

Predetermined settlement spots have already been discussed so I won't touch that.

The loss of company and personal modifiers for each unit was a BIG mistake by TG and it went a long way in making K2 dumbed down. Lack of unit combinations is a big deal but could've easily been alleviated but losing company modifiers when making K2 made using non-standardized unit combinations ineffiecient and pointless. You wouldn't ever use an Archer/Temple Mage unit in K2 now because they don't provide extra bonuses to the company that could specialize them. For example, you would never use Cavalier/Celebrant/Elementalist in K2 because the elementalist doesn't provide any sort of benefit to the company that would make them an efficient frontline. It would be better to have it as the infamous 3C combo in K2. However, in K2 Elementalists gave a 40% magic damage reduction to the company which made the Cavaliers less suseptible to both magic and physical damage. This made them a better frontline later into the game when mages are plentiful. Company modifiers was a damn good feature in KAG and made not only your tactics on the field important but also the placement of your units in they're group important as well.

The factions and races are too homologous in K2 and was definitely a step backwards from KAG. The real problem now is that the benefits provided by the two options only provide some bonuses as opposed to true playstyle changes which makes K2 more akin to Rise of Nations. KAG not only provided each faction all the principle elements (standard mages and melees) and bonuses but also a focus and playstyle shift for each faction. While there is some deviation between factions and races in K2, it's minimal at best. I had envisioned a KAG style faction paired with a race's natural abilities when I heard about factions and races being implemented in K2 when CK interviewed them 2 years ago (with me tagging along) but instead we got K2. yay! =/

I initially thought the idea behind making a settlement separate parts and making each component attackable was a good idea. However, I was ultimately wrong. There's no strategic purpose in attacking components other than the main hall because they're just obstructions at best. Sure, they provide economy and some strategic bonuses to your enemy's forces but there is almost no tactical value in destroying them because they're just sitting there in your way. You're just delaying your win if you don't go straight for the main hall. They really should've made a mechanism that required the destruction of certain components to force the submission of a settlement.

Gold acquisiton in K2 is too fast and resources out in the field provide too much of a bonus now because they don't require a Zone of Supply. This faster gold acquistion now just means players can toss more and more units out faster without balancing troops and economy. That was a vital component of KAG. You could play all economy or all troops, but that would come at a cost. with K2, you can still spam troops heavily and not have a problem with economy at all.

Bleh. Anyway, I'm just rambling now. We should just invite the Timegate folk over to this forum and have them discuss it on our forum where they can answer our questions and respond to what we have to say instead of having the nutjockeys over at QT3 on us all the time.

K2 is its own game, much like any RTS sequel is, its a departure from its predecessor while maintaining many of the hallmarks of its forebearers

Except for the fact it LOST many of the great elements that made KAG unique and refreshing to RTS fans that had discovered the series. I'd highly recommend listening to the "haters" instead of parroting out press release catchphrases.

Edit: I'd be game for KAG rawr! I'll even pop by #ga for it on my computer. Yes, I'm itching that much for it.

 

[Mengy]

I'd be game for KAG rawr! I'll even pop by #ga for it on my computer. Yes, I'm itching that much for it.

Yeah, I'd be up for it too. Been awhile since I played some KAG, and playing K2 has just made me want to play KAG all that much more.

I'm gonna play K2 some more tonight and maybe tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure I'm getting my money back by Monday. Unless I discover some hidden secret that makes playing it worthwhile.

 

[MrAngryFace]

tonight is gaming, dont forget shouta!

 

[Gart]

All the complaints for K2 make me sad. If what you guys say is true, that really sucks. Haven't played the game myself so I guess I'll give the demo a try and see if I like it.

You know the existance of Kohan 2 doesn't cause your KAG discs to burst into flames and melt away forever. You feel like playing KAG, its always there to play.

Yeah, but it would have been nice to get a update/true sequel with improvements etc.

 

[Wellington]

Check out the demo, we should try a multiplayer game on Sunday.

I just waded through the tutorial and the campaign mission... ouch. Slowly build and then slowly take every square inch of land.

No... must bide my time until I can have the full version.... must... review with... no biases!

 

[Shouta]

I'd be game for a try but honestly it sucks anyway you cut it.

 

[MrAngryFace]

hey shouta get over here

 

[Shouta]

Can't, I'm watching the house for my parents. Apparently, they're expecting something now. I'm sitting here playing Growlanser Generations and waiting for it to show up.

 

[MrAngryFace]

F U!

 

[Shouta]

Be glad I can't come over and destroy you in fighting games!

Edit: Too bad no one's up for some KAG right now.

 

[Dead]

Be glad I can't come over and destroy you in fighting games!

Edit: Too bad no one's up for some KAG right now.

No one wants to play KAG anymore

Its been tainted

 

[EviLore]

We should definitely play some time this weekend...

 

[MrAngryFace]

sunday is great for me

 

[Gart]

If you guys need a player PM, IM, email or whatever. Im up for it if I'm not doing anything.

 

[Alex]

I'd be up for it as well, if I wouldn't be wiped off the map within minutes that is. I dig Kohan, but I openly admit my suckyness.

 

[Kefkaff]

Hail to the king baby.

Word.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Shouta loses by forfeit this Fighting Friday.

 

[Hitokage]

Hmm... late night saturday is about the only time I can devote to a proper Kohan game this weekend. During the week though I'll be game anytime I'm home.

 

[Shouta]

Hey, I had to house sit =(.

I'm game for any time of the week. Just need to toss me a PM. Although I do start school this week and I work from 3:30-7pm Tues-Thurs.

 

[MrAngryFace]

I work tuesday-saturdays 10pm to 6am so umm sunday is kohan day and monday is ok