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London mayor bans ads with "unrealistic bodies" on public transport

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Skele7on

Banned
I have a larger problem to those fatties and generally disgstusting given up on personal hygene people touching me on far too overcrowded tubes to have time to even see these body shaming adverts.

At least my travel costs will be rising just as he prom... wait a minute he said he'd freeze them.
 
While the idea of size 0 models being used is the main issue with unrealistic bodies I think the real issue is with Photoshop use in adverts.

Most people know that PS is used but I feel that they don’t actually take it into consideration when looking at pictures and still take it at face value.
A ban on Photoshop I think would surely give people a better grasp of what is realistic and what isn't. Even when you have 'real' bodies on display you still have their skin smoothed out, blemishes and spots removed, skin tone evened out, hair lines changed, limbs elongated and who knows what else.

For a fantastic evaluation of this issue I suggest anyone who hasn’t seen it to watch the Photoshop episode (season 17 finale) of South Park, an amazing portrayal of the sort of issues that it causes and the overwhelming pressure it adds to people (mainly women).
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
That doesn't tell the whole story. Men are far less likely to be diagnosed

Sure, stats never do, but I think it's as fair an indicator as any other. Obesity isn't necessarily tied to body image whereas eating disorders do tend to be. Do you think there would be a massive shift in those figures?
 

Jobbs

Banned
For a lot of us having a fit body takes discipline and work

It's not something to hide or be ashamed of

I also understand that for people (girls and women especially) there can be a lot of pressure to look perfect and maybe we don't need buses adding to that pressure

I dunno.. I guess I see both sides
 
What about eating disorder rates per gender? 750k reported as of 2015, 89% of which are girls/women.

Yes, doesn't disprove my point. In fact let me predict that these numbers will rise dramatically in the future. When you spread misinformation like the Protein World model being too thin and anorexic and unrealistic, girls will believe that they have to starve themselves to achieve it, when in reality that body is attained by consuming the correct amount of calories and working out. Lies make people make incorrect decisions. Her body is not an ideal, it is a healthy reality
 

Angel_DvA

Member
Ok so so the ads that feature real people that, ya know... work out, count as unrealistic? Wtf is this dude on?

I remember the controversy that article is referencing and I don't think being proud of having a fit body or striving to attain one or even peddling the dream is body shaming.

there's nothing wrong with workout body on ads but something is definitely wrong when those bodies are photoshoped as hell to look even better on a unrealistic proportion...
 

trembli0s

Member
Yes, doesn't disprove my point. In fact let me predict that these numbers will rise dramatically in the future. When you spread misinformation like the Protein World model being too thin and anorexic and unrealistic, girls will believe that they have to starve themselves to achieve it, when in reality that body is attained by consuming the correct amount of calories and working out. Lies make people make incorrect decisions. Her body is not an ideal, it is a healthy reality

The new trend to demonize fitness and claim that you must be some sort of genetic "superfreak" in order to not be obese is one of the most alarming things I can think of.

It's the worst sort of determinism I can think of. People are fat because they don't engage in physical activity and overeat, end of story. Both of those stem from a lack of discipline, not from some divine genetic determinism.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Yes, doesn't disprove my point.

But I don't think your stats prove your point either. Obesity figures aren' necessarily tied to issues with body image (body dismorphia, for instance), where as eating disorders do tend to be.

In fact let me predict that these numbers will rise dramatically in the future. When you spread misinformation like the Protein World model being too thin and anorexic and unrealistic, girls will believe that they have to starve themselves to achieve it, when in reality that body is attained by consuming the correct amount of calories and working out. Lies make people make incorrect decisions.

In the context of that ad, her body is being portrayed as the standard for 'Beach Body Ready', which is - arguably - a misleading standard. By setting it as a standard it is part of the very issue and reason young girls feel the need to do as you suggest. Whilst his implementation is clumsy and not a little misguided, I think the intention is a fairly noble one.
 
The new trend to demonize fitness and claim that you must be some sort of genetic "superfreak" in order to not be obese is one of the most alarming things I can think of.

It's the worst sort of determinism I can think of. People are fat because they don't engage in physical activity and overeat, end of story. Both of those stem from a lack of discipline, not from some divine genetic determinism.

Guess what determines discipline...

The brain, willpower, discipline, hormones, and metabolism are a carefully orchestrated nightmare that are all a result of genes and environment. Plus our bodies are literally designed to hold on to every last calorie. It does make the issue easier to disregard when you hand wave things as discipline, willpower, ignore ads that cause body image issues, etc.
 

Sesha

Member
Can we just ban advertisements that depict anything else but the actual product? I don't need to see either schlubs, athletes or models engaging in an activity or wearing something to sell me on a product.

People telling you you are too skinny is damn annoying. Had it a lot while I was a kid. Like, what the hell am I supposed to do, go eat more hamburgers? I'm not going around telling people you are too large also.

I was essentially told this by a teacher when I was young. That was interesting.

I think its fairly safe to say that women and young girls face more pressure to fit a certain ideal.

Nah. It definitely happens with men and boys as well in fairly equal measure too.
 

akira28

Member
Yes, doesn't disprove my point. In fact let me predict that these numbers will rise dramatically in the future. When you spread misinformation like the Protein World model being too thin and anorexic and unrealistic, girls will believe that they have to starve themselves to achieve it, when in reality that body is attained by consuming the correct amount of calories and working out. Lies make people make incorrect decisions. Her body is not an ideal, it is a healthy reality

fine. lets meet in the middle. if they had signs up that had perfect 10 bodies and said "with proper exercise and diet you can look like this" do you think anyone would say anything? honestly?

because what we have in reality is a model who we don't know how she arrived at that physical condition. But we do know she's trying to sell dieting products, implying via advertisement that the diet supplements are what did it. That is a problem. If the mayor wants to put a clamp and say "If you're going to use coercion to try to make money you're going to have to be more ethical about it." Is that really a first amendment, circle the wagons type issue?
 
fine. lets meet in the middle. if they had signs up that had perfect 10 bodies and said "with proper exercise and diet you can look like this" do you think anyone would say anything? honestly?
Yes, people are insane

because what we have in reality is a model who we don't know how she arrived at that physical condition. But we do know she's trying to sell dieting products, implying via advertisement that the diet supplements are what did it. That is a problem. If the mayor wants to put a clamp and say "If you're going to use coercion to try to make money you're going to have to be more ethical about it." Is that really a first amendment, circle the wagons type issue?

In that case I don't mind. I will never go against more ethical advertising
 

trembli0s

Member
Guess what determines discipline...

The brain, willpower, discipline, hormones, and metabolism are a carefully orchestrated nightmare that are all a result of genes and environment. Plus our bodies are literally designed to hold on to every last calorie. It does make the issue easier to disregard when you hand wave things as discipline, willpower, ignore ads that cause body image issues, etc.

Might as well say that crime etc. everything else is deterministically bound by genetic make up. There is no freedom, no choice, it's all genetics. No free agency. Bollocks.
 
Might as well say that crime etc. everything else is deterministically bound by genetic make up. There is no freedom, no choice, it's all genetics. No free agency. Bollocks.

Well I do say that, and its supported by all evidence of neuroscience. Its also more than genetics, environment plays a role. When you parade bodies that may be essentially unattainable to people, the brain responds and sometimes very maladaptively (eating disorders).

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/what-neuroscience-says-about-free-will/

It is much more comforting to think people have control but be my guest if you want to espouse those same views to alcoholics/addicts.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Can we just ban advertisements that depict anything else but the actual product? I don't need to see either schlubs, athletes or models engaging in an activity or wearing something to sell me on a product.

Oh god, yes please! Advertising is fucking evil, man.

He says, now working in marketing...

Nah. It definitely happens with men and boys as well in fairly equal measure too.

We'll have to agree to disagree. While I'm certain young boys and men are under similar pressures, I strongly doubt its 'equal' to or as widespread as what young girls and women face.
 
Men aren't told to look a certain way...?

today they are even more so being told how to look.

if you look at pictures of young party goers, more and more teenagers and young men are going all out at the gym trying to get six packs. So now, kids who don't have six packs are not part of the cool kids.

so the pressure on men is on to actually look fit even more than ever.

More and more women today expect men to be physically active, and there is the pressure now to go out and exercise
 

trembli0s

Member
Well I do say that, and its supported by all evidence of neuroscience. Its also more than genetics, environment plays a role. When you parade bodies that may be essentially unattainable to people, the brain responds and sometimes very maladaptively (eating disorders).

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/what-neuroscience-says-about-free-will/

It is much more comforting to think people have control but be my guest if you want to espouse those same views to alcoholics/addicts.

It seems rather disingenuous to claim there is no free will at all when the researcher himself concludes that:

It remains to be seen just how much the postdictive illusion of choice that we observe in our experiments connects to these weightier aspects of daily life and mental illness. The illusion may only apply to a small set of our choices that are made quickly and without too much thought. Or it may be pervasive and ubiquitous—governing all aspects of our behavior, from our most minute to our most important decisions.
 
It seems rather disingenuous to claim there is no free will at all when the researcher himself concludes that:

Well given what I've seen in my own research, free will is either absurdly limited or does not exist at all. Pretty much all neuro research in mammals supports this unless you have papers otherwise which I would be very interested in reading about.

There is no evidence of free will, just a growing body of evidence against it. It takes time to disprove everything with the paltry amount of funding science gets.
 

Fliesen

Member
today they are even more so being told how to look.

if you look at pictures of young party goers, more and more teenagers and young men are going all out at the gym trying to get six packs. So now, kids who don't have six packs are not part of the cool kids.

so the pressure on men is on to actually look fit even more than ever.

More and more women today expect men to be physically active, and there is the pressure now to go out and exercise

The ideal you describe is a (except for edge cases) a somewhat healthy one. Work out, be muscular, keep your body healthy.
For decades, women felt the need to be skinny. Size zero. That's opposed to being healthy. If men feel forced to go to the gym and work out, while young girls felt the need to throw up their food or not eat for days, i don't think we can call these 2 things equally bad.
There's people who work out for fun. Nobody does bulimia for fun.

Also, as long as there's no cellulite equivalent to last year's "dad bod" hype, when there's beach photos of a celebrity who gained some extra weight, i don't buy the narrative of men suffering equally from beauty standards.
 
But I don't think your stats prove your point either. Obesity figures aren' necessarily tied to issues with body image (body dismorphia, for instance), where as eating disorders do tend to be.



In the context of that ad, her body is being portrayed as the standard for 'Beach Body Ready', which is - arguably - a misleading standard. By setting it as a standard it is part of the very issue and reason young girls feel the need to do as you suggest. Whilst his implementation is clumsy and not a little misguided, I think the intention is a fairly noble one.

I believe the Protein World model is a good standard, not a misleading standard. A standard that some want to ban because it makes them feel insecure, and the others want to achieve but with the wrong approach thanks to being lied by the former people. You probably think doing away with these standards helps both groups but it seems to me it is only the first one having their way. They frame it as a feminist issue to gain victim points, and when they have the chance they also pose it a race issue, that way any disagreement can be dismissed as hate speech. Also that way they don't have to apply it to men, of course.

Not saying that is you, because you have made your stance clear and honest. But please don't encourage the vermin
 

kavanf1

Member
Guess what determines discipline...

The brain, willpower, discipline, hormones, and metabolism are a carefully orchestrated nightmare that are all a result of genes and environment. Plus our bodies are literally designed to hold on to every last calorie. It does make the issue easier to disregard when you hand wave things as discipline, willpower, ignore ads that cause body image issues, etc.

Those things don't determine discipline, they determine your predisposition to discipline. It's more than possible for anyone to overcome any predispositions that could be seen as an obstacle to being fit and looking as good as they can possibly look. Routine and habit are huge factors in maintaining discipline. In other words, you can teach yourself to be disciplined, regardless of any naturally occurring blockers.

Also our bodies weren't designed, they evolved. ;)
 
Those things don't determine discipline, they determine your predisposition to discipline. It's more than possible for anyone to overcome any predispositions that could be seen as an obstacle to being fit and looking as good as they can possibly look. Routine and habit are huge factors in maintaining discipline. In other words, you can teach yourself to be disciplined, regardless of any naturally occurring blockers.

Also our bodies weren't designed, they evolved. ;)

Tell that to people with problems with their dopaminergic systems (ADHD). I was using designed as figurative wording. Routine and habits are really good tools to helping people, but discipline training and training has realistic limits. Diet and exercise don't help diabetes patients even when their life is on the line and they are given good nutritional counseling (where bariatric surgery does, a surprising result to me because it is very possible to "reverse" diabetes with diet and exercise but for many people it is impossible to stick to the regimen). Are they all lacking discipline? Or is the human body evolved so to make things very difficult.

There are very real limits in discipline/willpower that cannot simply be overcome.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I believe the Protein World model is a good standard, not a misleading standard.

By 'standard' I mean the one the advert presents: 'Beach Body Ready'. I strongly disagree that her body is the base line for which a woman or young girl can be 'Beach Body Ready' and that is exactly what the advert is implying. She is, if anything I would argue, an exception. The fact that the advert also presents her as the outcome of using the product is also misleading (but then again, what advert isn't, right?) as she clearly does more than simply use it to retain that figure.

I've nothing against people getting fit or fit people being represented in the media. How they are presented and how that presentation potentially affects the more impressionable people is something of a concern and one I feel Saddiq is - rather clumsily - trying to address. Address it in a single, wide reaching, highly visible space, I might add; not nationwide, not city wide. This isn't a blanket ban nor a call for one.

They frame it as a feminist issue to gain victim points, and when they have the chance they also pose it a race issue, that way any disagreement can be dismissed as hate speech. Also that way they don't have to apply it to men, of course.

Not saying that is you, because you have made your stance clear and honest. But please don't encourage the vermin

I'm not sure I follow.
 

Jobbs

Banned
The image in the first link is quite slim and represents a somewhat less common body type, however the second link just looks like a young person who pays reasonable attention to diet and exercise.
 
I honestly have more concern over the advertising of weight loss supplements and powders as ways to get beach bodies vs the actual people in the advert. You're never going to get an advert using normal people to sell you shit because the vast majority of people are going to be normal.

The bodies of the guy and the girl are not easily achievable baseline bodies. Not a chance. I disagree with the ideal that the avg person can get to a shredded pack of abs and or like 5/6% body fat. Bodies like those do require a lot of physical activity and a lot of proper diet to maintain and those combination of things with a regular persons life as well are hard as hell to do consistently and its expensive to maintain. (Dunno about the UK but in Canada and America most people do live cheque to cheque, before the "eating clean is not expensive" brigade comes in)

However I dont get how you ban unrealistic bodies. Those bodies are hard to obtain but they are obtainable. What is the criteria for that? People look at the body and go pass fail? Would it just be "people who have a healthy bmi are considered attainable" or you cany be past this % body fat? Its so arbitrary. I dont get how you can reasonably get to this level.
 
So uh

How do they determine whats unrealistic. I'd imagine if a model walks in with a certain body type, that would make it realistic by default?
 
So uh

How do they determine whats unrealistic. I'd imagine if a model walks in with a certain body type, that would make it realistic by default?

In France there are actually laws against employing fashion models who are too thin. There is a real anorexia and substance abuse problem in the industry. It is even sometimes called "heroin chic" for a reason.
 

daviyoung

Banned
Tell that to people with problems with their dopaminergic systems (ADHD). I was using designed as figurative wording. Routine and habits are really good tools to helping people, but discipline training and training has realistic limits. Diet and exercise don't help diabetes patients even when their life is on the line and they are given good nutritional counseling (where bariatric surgery does, a surprising result to me because it is very possible to "reverse" diabetes with diet and exercise but for many people it is impossible to stick to the regimen). Are they all lacking discipline? Or is the human body evolved so to make things very difficult.

There are very real limits in discipline/willpower that cannot simply be overcome.

Yeh man, why bother? It's not like humans have a history of rebelling against how they evolved.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Using the excuse of tax money is weak because there are plenty of causes that tax money goes to that you would find to be subjectively "complete waste of time and energy". You don't get to be selective with what your tax goes to.
I'm not sure what you're objecting to here. My point is that I showed how "banning Photoshop" as a policy would not be very effective. If a policy is not effective, than it is not a subjective waste of money, it is an objective one. I don't get to select where my tax money goes to directly, but that's missing the point.

You know exactly well that the discussion is about photoshopping bodies, not the actual software.

Not I don't. It's very hard to separate the two. That is why I ALSO framed the argument in terms of banning "digital manipulation of bodies" (AKA "photoshopping bodies") and why that would be useless. Read that part again if you missed it.

Makeup and lighting wouldn't fall into false advertising because those are tools people can use and regularly do. That is why Youtube makeup videos are such a big thing.

Photoshop is also a "tool that people use and regularly do [use]". You can do a lot of the same body manipulation/beauty enhancing effects with either makeup or Photoshop. This is how ads were done back in the day. It's just a lot easier to fix stuff in post now, so the makeup part isn't as critical as it used to be. If you ban Photoshopping bodies, you'll just make production invest more on the makeup side of things.

Using the argument of social media is a bit disingenuous. Those people's fit bodies aren't forced on you, you create your own social media feed. If you go on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook, you're curating the people you want to follow, so there's a very low chance that you're going to be aggressively jealous because it was your active participation in following that fit person's profile. Unless if you're some sort of masochist.
It is not disingenuous. I guess most of us as masochists, then.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-29569473
Dr Phillippa Diedrichs, senior research fellow at the University of West of England's Centre for Appearance Research, says research backs up the link between social media and body image concerns.
"The more time spent on Facebook, the more likely people are to self-objectify themselves," she says.
She explains there is a tendency to seek out negative social interactions in these forums, and to ask people to comment on how you look, which can lead to body image anxieties.

You're making out banning the use of photoshop on bodies to be rocket science just because it's subjective
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

or to be a huge waste of funding when it really wouldn't.
I explained how banning digital manipulation of bodies wouldn't do jack crap about hindering a photographer's ability to make people look hot. Thus, a waste of money.

False advertising tends to be much stricter here in UK than other countries. We've seen when videogame/tech ads have been taken down or have to put disclaimers that the game footage is not representative or is, or whether a company is touting features that the device can't do. This isn't that far a stretch. This is still just hypothetical speculation so a more fruitful discussion might come about if it ever is sought after by the gov't.
Those are pretty cut and dry cases. What exactly, is being falsified by having a hot human advertise a product? I can see how it can potentially contribute to feelings of negative body image, but what is "false" about this advertising?

Take the "are you beach body ready?" ad, which most of this controversy was generated from.

Put yourself in the shoes of the person in charge of constructing the ad. What particular Photoshop functions are you going to prohibit the use of? That girl actually looks like that.
 
What a pathetic shitpost.


I refuse to believe someone actually believes that to be true. Men are NOT primarily valued for their physical appearances.

I agree. Men are not primarily judged or valued for their physical appearance. But I think the things they are valued for, like money and status, are as difficult to control as physical appearance.
 
Tell that to people with problems with their dopaminergic systems (ADHD). I was using designed as figurative wording. Routine and habits are really good tools to helping people, but discipline training and training has realistic limits. Diet and exercise don't help diabetes patients even when their life is on the line and they are given good nutritional counseling (where bariatric surgery does, a surprising result to me because it is very possible to "reverse" diabetes with diet and exercise but for many people it is impossible to stick to the regimen). Are they all lacking discipline? Or is the human body evolved so to make things very difficult.

There are very real limits in discipline/willpower that cannot simply be overcome.

There will always be some that have physical/mental limits that cannot be overcome. But using that as a way to discount the power of discipline, good habits, good diet, exercise, etc. is ridiculous. Edge cases shouldn't dictate the norms.
 

typist

Member
Ban them? Nah. Freedom of expression reigns supreme here. But it's fair to criticise the ad, there is a suggestion that bulkier body types are not beach ready, which is bullshit. Advertisers should just replace that caption with something like: "£20 Bikini!" or "Get ready for summer!"
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Does anyone think the makers of the ad were anticipating, or perhaps even hoping for a Streisand Effect in order to generate more buzz?
 

Kinyou

Member
Does anyone think the makers of the ad were anticipating, or perhaps even hoping for a Streisand Effect in order to generate more buzz?
I'm not sure. "Beach body" is a pretty normal term in the fitness world, I don't believe they wanted to incite outrage with that.
 
Does anyone think the makers of the ad were anticipating, or perhaps even hoping for a Streisand Effect in order to generate more buzz?

Not initially, but after the initial backlash , they certainly spread it around and went all out. Huge billboard in NYC, for instance, iirc.
 

grumble

Member
Well given what I've seen in my own research, free will is either absurdly limited or does not exist at all. Pretty much all neuro research in mammals supports this unless you have papers otherwise which I would be very interested in reading about.

There is no evidence of free will, just a growing body of evidence against it. It takes time to disprove everything with the paltry amount of funding science gets.

Ok but at the end of the day is it relevant? If people have no control over their actions and behaviour and just act as reactive programs, what is the end result of this info? i don't really see an outcome where we can use a 'no free will' input and get out anything productive.

As for the issue at hand, banning the model would be stupid, banning the message would be stupid, but a simple disclaimer like 'model's physique has been digitally altered', with such alteration referring to proportions alone would be fine.
 
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