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Macquarie Report on NX: "Coming next week" (Take with a grain of salt)

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Thraktor

Member
You realize that this was the exact reasoning behind the PS Vita, right? A handheld that plays full, no-compromise console games like Killzone, Uncharted etcetera.

Turns out, people really aren't all that interested in playing toned-down traditional console titles on a portable.

I don't think the Vita (or the PSP) are particularly good analogs for the potential success or failure of the "console games on a handheld" aspect of NX. For one, while Vita may have had "console-like" games, by and large it didn't get actual mainstream console games. While console gamers were playing Uncharted 2, Vita owners got Golden Abyss, ditto with AC:III/AC:Liberation, CoD:BLOPS/CoD:BLOPS Declassified, Resistance III/Resistance Burning Skies, etc, etc. From both technical and business perspectives, NX is in a very different place than Vita was.

From a technical perspective, the NX (from what we know) has a number of big advantages Vita didn't:


  • A far bigger resolution gap with contemporary home consoles
    When Vita launched in late 2011 with a 28 Gflop GPU and a 540p screen, home consoles were targeting only slightly higher resolutions with almost 10x more GPU grunt (720p and ~240 Gflops, meaning Vita had only approximately 20% of the performance per pixel). When PS4 arrived a couple of years later, it increased GPU power far more than it did resolution, dropping Vita down to just 6% of its performance on a per-pixel basis.

    While people may point to PS4 Pro and Scorpio as evidence that a handheld NX couldn't possibly keep up, they seem to be forgetting that this performance boost is almost entirely consumed by a huge resolution jump, and Nintendo are being far more conservative with NX's resolution than Sony were with Vita. If the 6Tflop Scorpio is indeed going to be running games at native 4K, then a handheld running a 720p screen (nine times fewer pixels) doesn't actually need to be immensely powerful to keep up. If we're conservative and assume that NX hits 300 Gflops and we ignore FP16, even then NX would be hitting 45% of the performance per pixel of Scorpio, far higher than Vita was to its contemporaries. On the other end of the spectrum, assuming a slightly more powerful NX and full use of FP16, it's well within the realm of possibility that NX could hit 1 Tflop in handheld mode, giving it 150% of the performance per pixel of a 4K res Scorpio game, meaning it would actually be pushing the more sophisticated graphical effects of the two.

    (Incidentally, my most likely scenario for NX's GPU [2x SM, 785MHz, 1.5W] with 80% of shader code running at FP16 would put the NX at almost exactly 100% ops-per-pixel parity with a 4K Scorpio.)
  • A CPU on par with (or potentially exceeding) contemporary home consoles
    This one's fairly self explanatory. Vita launched with a quad-core A9 CPU running at 330MHz at a time when PS3 was sporting a 3.2GHz Cell processor which was over 50x as powerful on paper. Even a cheap octo-core A53 solution for NX would put them within touching distance of Jaguar, and a combo of A53s and a few A57/A72/A73s could potentially push NX over the top (and we've heard rumours to indicate that this is indeed the case). While much of the GPU's workload scales pretty linearly with resolution, this isn't true for CPUs, which can make porting a game to a system with a much less powerful CPU extremely difficult or even impossible, something which shouldn't be an issue for NX.
  • Highly scalable game engines
    While multiplatform game engines were commonplace at Vita's launch, the notion of a single engine which is designed to scale from a mobile phone to a top of the line gaming PC was pretty alien. Nowadays, however, the most popular third-party engines are almost all designed to scale from systems far weaker than NX to ones far more powerful than Scorpio, and development has been consolidated to fewer and fewer engines (meaning fewer people need to do the work of actually porting game engines to NX). Where for many PS360 (and certainly PS4) games it would have been extremely technically challenging, if not impossible, to port the engine to Vita, the majority of modern game engines (even internal ones like Frostbite) already accommodate hardware like NX's, and the amount of time required to get the median PS4/XBO game up and running on NX should be orders of magnitude less than to get the median PS360 game running on Vita.
  • Desktop-class GPU architecture
    While the PowerVR GPU in Vita was very capable for a handheld of its time (and actually more feature rich than RSX in certain attributes), it was nonetheless a different architecture, with a different feature set, than any developers working on PS360 games would have been used to. A small number of developers with backgrounds in iOS development may have had some experience to leverage, but working within OpenGL ES and on quickly-iterated hardware wouldn't have given them much of a chance to learn how to tightly optimise to the extent typical in console development.

    When it comes to NX, though, the Maxwell/Pascal architecture is not only feature-complete with Nintendo's GCN-based competitors, but unlike PowerVR 5-series, it's an architecture which is extremely well known and understood by a huge proportion of engine programmers. Every single multiplatform game engine out there effectively has to be reasonably well optimised for the architecture already, as the majority of PC gamers are using either it or one of its predecessors, and it's extremely well-documented for those engine programmers who do wish to push that optimisation even further. This also ties into the previous point, as game engines are both more scalable to NX's performance level and better optimised to its GPU architecture than was ever the case with Vita.
  • Much larger game cards
    When Vita launched with game cards maxing out at 4GB, PS3 was running games from 50GB Blu-Rays. Today, PS4 Pro is still limited by the same 50GB Blu-Rays, but NX's game cards will almost certainly be capable of scaling up to 64GB or even higher.
What all of the above combines to mean is that NX should be technically capable of handling ports of pretty much any third party game. Even if the developers have to put work into scaling down assets and removing effects to get the game running smoothly on NX, that's still orders of magnitude lower cost than the Vita approach, which was to build an entirely new game from scratch. It's also a far better end product for gamers, as they get to play exactly the same game as on competing platforms, as opposed to a cheap spin-off from a B-tier team.

This means that the process of bringing big-budget console games to NX will be far cheaper, and hence far lower risk than it was with Vita, and will produce much better results. The big question is whether western third parties will give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt like they gave Sony with the PSP (and less so the Vita). Nintendo seems to be doing everything they need to on the technical front to keep NX viable for third parties, but it remains to be seen how successful they'll be on convincing western third parties of the business case for developing for NX.
 

Richie

Member
So apparently it's easier to find out Nintendo's secret games than it is to discover motherfreakin' Ubisoft's. Yeah he's full of it.

Why does he have to be full of it, though, now I want SM64 HD.
 
tumblr_nkepckpeJb1silxrio1_500.gif


Taking with a truckload of salt. Fully expecting the NX to have been delayed until March 2017 at this point.
And that's referring to its reveal. Not expecting it to see release until the 2017 holiday season.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
Nintendo seems to be doing everything they need to on the technical front to keep NX viable for third parties, but it remains to be seen how successful they'll be on convincing western third parties of the business case for developing for NX.


That will be a damn tough task. There just isn't much of a market for the AAA western games on Nintendo platforms.

-A lot of Nintendo fans actively dislike FPS/TPS, Sports, Sim/Simcade racers, realistic graphic styles etc. etc.

-Then you have the parent/family market that buys their kid Nintendo as they'd rather them play Mario and Pokemon than GTA and CoD

-And for those that like Nintendo games and western AAAs, they already have some combo of PS4/X1/PC to play those games since they haven't been on Nintendo consoles for ages. And they're unlikely to switch as the games will still look better on those platforms and most of their friends will still be playing the online ones there.


The NX success will really come down to how well they support it with third party games, and who good the Japanese third party support is. The latter should be fine as the 3DS did well their, and the Vita being dead should further help the NX since many of the types of Japanese exclusives it got will probably go to NX given the success of portables/mobile and decline of consoles in Japan. Which is fine as we don't need a third box with (4th counting PC) with all the western AAA multiplats. At best, if it sells well they'll just throw the NX only crowd a few bones with ports of some big games like CoD.
 
That will be a damn tough task. There just isn't much of a market for the AAA western games on Nintendo platforms.

-A lot of Nintendo fans actively dislike FPS/TPS, Sports, Sim/Simcade racers, realistic graphic styles etc. etc.

-Then you have the parent/family market that buys their kid Nintendo as they'd rather them play Mario and Pokemon than GTA and CoD

-And for those that like Nintendo games and western AAAs, they already have some combo of PS4/X1/PC to play those games since they haven't been on Nintendo consoles for ages. And they're unlikely to switch as the games will still look better on those platforms and most of their friends will still be playing the online ones there.


The NX success will really come down to how well they support it with third party games, and who good the Japanese third party support is. The latter should be fine as the 3DS did well their, and the Vita being dead should further help the NX since many of the types of Japanese exclusives iwesternill probably go to NX given the success of portables/mobile and decline of consoles in Japan.

I don't understand this notion of Nintendo fans not wanting to buy western third party games. The real reason Nintendo fans don't buy third party games is because most of the time it ends up being a shitty port or a game that's 3 fucking years old. I mean you can buy these ports cheaper on other consoles. The Wii showed most western third parties half assing ports even though it was the best selling console. Although I'll give it to Unisoft because they actually do try, but the rest naw.
 
I wonder if Nintendo would be willing to play ball with cross-play if they manage to get some indie multiplayer games on NX (like Rocket League). I remember hearing about them having a game or two on eShop being cross-play, but I wonder if they'd ok some higher profile games. I'd assume it would be a no-brainer for them.
 

Oregano

Member
I wonder if Nintendo would be willing to play ball with cross-play if they manage to get some indie multiplayer games on NX (like Rocket League). I remember hearing about them having a game or two on eShop being cross-play, but I wonder if they'd ok some higher profile games. I'd assume it would be a no-brainer for them.

Dragon Quest X is on Wii, Wii U, 3DS, PC and Mobile with full crossplay. It's also coming to both PS4 and NX so it's very likely to be crossplay across manufacturers too.
 

spekkeh

Banned
I don't think the Vita (or the PSP) are particularly good analogs for the potential success or failure of the "console games on a handheld" aspect of NX.

-snip-
Excellent post. While you don't really address his experiential concerns, you make a very compelling case of making me hype. If NX can in any way get close to the other consoles, I can see myself maining a Nintendo console for the first time in almost a decade. Though I fully expect MS to make Scorpio a new 1080 console generation as soon as they can get away with it.
 
I don't understand this notion of Nintendo fans not wanting to buy western third party games. The real reason Nintendo fans don't buy third party games is because most of the time it ends up being a shitty port or a game that's 3 fucking years old. I mean you can buy these ports cheaper on other consoles. The Wii showed most western third parties half assing ports even though it was the best selling console. Although I'll give it to Unisoft because they actually do try, but the rest naw.

Sony, MS, and AAA third parties are overwhelmingly focused on one primary demographic, namely Western male gamers aged ~17-35, and have aggressively pursued this demographic as their primary focus for many years.

Nintendo, on the other hand, has made only halfhearted attempts at best to reach this demographic since the end of the N64 era, and there are no signs to indicate that this will change with NX (like, say, massive new investment in Western first-party development).

That's really what it comes down to, and why no one should expect NX to get more than a handful of the big AAA titles.
 

AzaK

Member
all three eighth gen consoles are $300. i'm suggesting that the nx will be $300 too.

and this is a poor argument. all new/next gen platforms start off more expensive than their old/previous gen counterparts. that's just the nature of the cycle.

Yes but can they call afford to be? The Wii U showed us the answer can be"no". I think you have to realise that Nintendo aren't in a a great position. People are leaving their systems and finding fun elsewhere. Sure the 3DS was reasonably healthy but even that market has shrunk for them. Home consoles, well, we all know where Nintendo sit there.

The only way it could ask for a high price is if it was truly truly unique and I'm not sure a handheld that can show no the TV is unique enough.

You are overlookung the whole point of "blue ocean" gaming. Adults will buy a nintendo console because it has games they can play with their kids and because they can take it with them. Both the Ps4 and XB1 are lacking in child friendly software. These adults will buy any 3rd party games on their Nintendo since they will likely only own one device.

Pokemon go tapped into this market and had the app been more fully featured it would have had longer legs.

These kids are now first generation consumers of nintendo products. All tbeir nostalgia is tied to nintendo. As they grow they will grow with nintendo products. All nintendo has to do is remain competant and they will have lifelong customers.
.

Sorry, we weren't talking about Blue Ocean. We were talking about Western core devs and how to get them. Blue Ocean strategies won't get those developers.
 

Akhe

Member
I don't understand this notion of Nintendo fans not wanting to buy western third party games. The real reason Nintendo fans don't buy third party games is because most of the time it ends up being a shitty port or a game that's 3 fucking years old. I mean you can buy these ports cheaper on other consoles. The Wii showed most western third parties half assing ports even though it was the best selling console. Although I'll give it to Unisoft because they actually do try, but the rest naw.
This so much.
 
He already did the stream and this guy on reddit translated it, it sounds more like rumors we heard already but here you go

"I am French, I'll be editing this post with whatever he says.
Ok here it is. He got this information this moring. Says he got a lot of data, but can't tell everything. Apparently he has learnt a lot and doesn't know where to begin. He has no picture to show, Nintendo is keeping a tight lid on it.

He says he's 100% sure it's a hybrid console. He calls it a "better version of the Wii U". Doesn't know if the games will be on cartridge or on CD, but he believes the games will be on cartridges.
You can put the game on the handheld screen. It can stream the game on the handheld screen, no connection or anything to do, it will all be done automatically when you get close enough to the "console" part. The handheld part will be smaller than the gamepad, close to the 3DS XL in size.

There will be a lot of launch games. He stressed on the a lot part, comparing it to the Wii U drought. Some games have been in development for 18 months or 2 years. There will be Breath of the Wild in a better version (not that better though, some small improvements), a new Mario game (certainly not a 2D game, 60% chance of having Mario Galaxy 3, 30% chances of having a HD version of Mario 64, 10% chance of having a newish 3D Mario game). There will be N64 and Gamecube remastered games on launch or not long after launch.

Some Wii U games will also be re-released in "definitive editions". Some more content for these games. There will be Mario Kart 8, Splatoon and Smash Bros - he claims the three have been confirmed. More content for these three games have been confirmed, that will not be available on Wii U. 4 more cups on Mario Kart 8. A lot of content, a long of new maps for Splatoon - the team is working so hard on it they had to stop the Splatfest. More content for Smash Bros too, new playable characters - that's the reason why there hasn't been Amiibos for the latest DLC, as Nintendo wants to release all of them at once. New maps too. He had nothing on any Mario Maker game for the NX.

There will also be a Metroid game on NX. He is 100% sure of it. It's being developed by Retro Studio. Retro Studio are also working on a new IP (he doesn't know if it is a brand new IP or an existing IP being sent to them).
He believes all Wii U games will be retrocompatible, and some are talking about retrocompatibility for the older consoles, including those working on cartridges. Nintendo wants to woo the retro gamers, but also bring quality games to the gamer crowds.

There will be at least 3 packs - Breath of the Wild, standalone console, and he doesn't remember the other one.
There will also be third party games. Ubisoft, Capcom and Square Enix are on board. No party games or anything, "real" games. Ubisoft are working on 3 NX games, but he doesn't know if Beyond Good & Evil 2 is one of them, and he doesn't know if they will be NX exclusive (his source didn't want to tell). Ubisoft CEO seems to have a lot of projects for the NX. Capcom is preparing a full HD Monster Hunter on NX - apparently the NX will be the new main Monster Hunter console. Square Enix is putting Final Fantasy XV on NX, with the Cloud Amiibo working on the game.
There will be about 15 games on launch, with a third of them being Nintendo IP. He seemed really confused for that part, not remembering the exact proportions. After cheking his notes: 30% remasters, 30% new Nintendo games, 40% third party games.

In terms of specs, the console is on par with the PS4, maybe a bit more powerful. Not as powerful as the Scorpio though. Most games will run 1080p, 60 FPS.

Nintendo are working on VR, but have no plans for it right now. Maybe later, that's not a priority.
The guy seems to be very hyped. His source is the "father of one of his friends", who also leaked him Zelda Twilight Princess back in the time. He says that the official reveal will be done very fast, late november being the absolute deadline. The fact that stuff is leaking might make Nintendo reveal sooner than they wanted to."

What doesn't make sense is breath of wild on NX sounding like it will only look marginally better than the Wii u version. A console like PS4 is close to 10x more powerful than the Wii U. Makes bo sense really.

Other than that.. 15 games at 40% 3rd party, 60% 1st(half being new and others being remasters) adds up to 6 3rd party games and 9 1st party. I wonder what all thr games will be.

I hope the rumor is true, but I'm keeping my expectations low. I don't know how Nintendo could sell at $300 at a profit. They might have to take a loss, but they could make up with the bundle version.
 

Doctre81

Member
I don't think the Vita (or the PSP) are particularly good analogs for the potential success or failure of the "console games on a handheld" aspect of NX. For one, while Vita may have had "console-like" games, by and large it didn't get actual mainstream console games. While console gamers were playing Uncharted 2, Vita owners got Golden Abyss, ditto with AC:III/AC:Liberation, CoD:BLOPS/CoD:BLOPS Declassified, Resistance III/Resistance Burning Skies, etc, etc. From both technical and business perspectives, NX is in a very different place than Vita was.

From a technical perspective, the NX (from what we know) has a number of big advantages Vita didn't:


  • A far bigger resolution gap with contemporary home consoles
    When Vita launched in late 2011 with a 28 Gflop GPU and a 540p screen, home consoles were targeting only slightly higher resolutions with almost 10x more GPU grunt (720p and ~240 Gflops, meaning Vita had only approximately 20% of the performance per pixel). When PS4 arrived a couple of years later, it increased GPU power far more than it did resolution, dropping Vita down to just 6% of its performance on a per-pixel basis.

    While people may point to PS4 Pro and Scorpio as evidence that a handheld NX couldn't possibly keep up, they seem to be forgetting that this performance boost is almost entirely consumed by a huge resolution jump, and Nintendo are being far more conservative with NX's resolution than Sony were with Vita. If the 6Tflop Scorpio is indeed going to be running games at native 4K, then a handheld running a 720p screen (nine times fewer pixels) doesn't actually need to be immensely powerful to keep up. If we're conservative and assume that NX hits 300 Gflops and we ignore FP16, even then NX would be hitting 45% of the performance per pixel of Scorpio, far higher than Vita was to its contemporaries. On the other end of the spectrum, assuming a slightly more powerful NX and full use of FP16, it's well within the realm of possibility that NX could hit 1 Tflop in handheld mode, giving it 150% of the performance per pixel of a 4K res Scorpio game, meaning it would actually be pushing the more sophisticated graphical effects of the two.

    (Incidentally, my most likely scenario for NX's GPU [2x SM, 785MHz, 1.5W] with 80% of shader code running at FP16 would put the NX at almost exactly 100% ops-per-pixel parity with a 4K Scorpio.)
  • A CPU on par with (or potentially exceeding) contemporary home consoles
    This one's fairly self explanatory. Vita launched with a quad-core A9 CPU running at 330MHz at a time when PS3 was sporting a 3.2GHz Cell processor which was over 50x as powerful on paper. Even a cheap octo-core A53 solution for NX would put them within touching distance of Jaguar, and a combo of A53s and a few A57/A72/A73s could potentially push NX over the top (and we've heard rumours to indicate that this is indeed the case). While much of the GPU's workload scales pretty linearly with resolution, this isn't true for CPUs, which can make porting a game to a system with a much less powerful CPU extremely difficult or even impossible, something which shouldn't be an issue for NX.
  • Highly scalable game engines
    While multiplatform game engines were commonplace at Vita's launch, the notion of a single engine which is designed to scale from a mobile phone to a top of the line gaming PC was pretty alien. Nowadays, however, the most popular third-party engines are almost all designed to scale from systems far weaker than NX to ones far more powerful than Scorpio, and development has been consolidated to fewer and fewer engines (meaning fewer people need to do the work of actually porting game engines to NX). Where for many PS360 (and certainly PS4) games it would have been extremely technically challenging, if not impossible, to port the engine to Vita, the majority of modern game engines (even internal ones like Frostbite) already accommodate hardware like NX's, and the amount of time required to get the median PS4/XBO game up and running on NX should be orders of magnitude less than to get the median PS360 game running on Vita.
  • Desktop-class GPU architecture
    While the PowerVR GPU in Vita was very capable for a handheld of its time (and actually more feature rich than RSX in certain attributes), it was nonetheless a different architecture, with a different feature set, than any developers working on PS360 games would have been used to. A small number of developers with backgrounds in iOS development may have had some experience to leverage, but working within OpenGL ES and on quickly-iterated hardware wouldn't have given them much of a chance to learn how to tightly optimise to the extent typical in console development.

    When it comes to NX, though, the Maxwell/Pascal architecture is not only feature-complete with Nintendo's GCN-based competitors, but unlike PowerVR 5-series, it's an architecture which is extremely well known and understood by a huge proportion of engine programmers. Every single multiplatform game engine out there effectively has to be reasonably well optimised for the architecture already, as the majority of PC gamers are using either it or one of its predecessors, and it's extremely well-documented for those engine programmers who do wish to push that optimisation even further. This also ties into the previous point, as game engines are both more scalable to NX's performance level and better optimised to its GPU architecture than was ever the case with Vita.
  • Much larger game cards
    When Vita launched with game cards maxing out at 4GB, PS3 was running games from 50GB Blu-Rays. Today, PS4 Pro is still limited by the same 50GB Blu-Rays, but NX's game cards will almost certainly be capable of scaling up to 64GB or even higher.
What all of the above combines to mean is that NX should be technically capable of handling ports of pretty much any third party game. Even if the developers have to put work into scaling down assets and removing effects to get the game running smoothly on NX, that's still orders of magnitude lower cost than the Vita approach, which was to build an entirely new game from scratch. It's also a far better end product for gamers, as they get to play exactly the same game as on competing platforms, as opposed to a cheap spin-off from a B-tier team.

This means that the process of bringing big-budget console games to NX will be far cheaper, and hence far lower risk than it was with Vita, and will produce much better results. The big question is whether western third parties will give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt like they gave Sony with the PSP (and less so the Vita). Nintendo seems to be doing everything they need to on the technical front to keep NX viable for third parties, but it remains to be seen how successful they'll be on convincing western third parties of the business case for developing for NX.

Excellent post.
 

Anth0ny

Member
You know they say that all games are created equal, but you look at 3D Mario and you look at 2D and you can see that statement is not true. See, normally if you go one on one with another game, you got a 50/50 chance of having fun. But 2D Mario is a genetic freak and not normal! So you got a 25%, AT BEST, at having fun. Then you add Miyamoto to the mix, your chances of having fun drastic go down. See the 3 way, at Nintendo Direct, you got a 33 1/3 chance of Mario 64 HD, but I, I got a 66 and 2/3 chance of Galaxy 3, because Miyamoto KNOWS he can't make fun games and he's not even gonna try!

So Miyamoto, you take your 33 1/3 chance, minus my 25% chance and you got an 8 1/3 chance of making a fun 2D Mario. But then you take my 75% chance of making Galaxy 3, if we was to go one on one, and then add 66 2/3 per cents, I got 141 2/3 chance of a Galaxy 3 unveil next week.

See GAF, the numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for you at the NX reveal.
 
10 million is tiny. The Dreamcast sold 10 million and it killed Sega as a console maker. They sure as hell aren't going to get more than 10 million by overpricing the hardware again. You're acting like Nintendo can just press a "make Console sell" button that they forgot to press the last time. They can't get 3rd parties and 10 million+ without some sort of competitive advantage.

Super belated response, but this isn't entirely accurate. The Genesis add-ons (CD and 32X) and the Saturn (and on a different note, Shemnue's development costs) held a bigger role in killing Sega more than the Dreamcast ever did. The worst that the Dreamcast did was simply not selling (fast) enough to reverse the massive amount of losses Sega had piled up on themselves caused by those endeavors--and that in itself can largely be attributed to both consumer mistrust of Sega caused by the Saturn and the then-upcoming release of the PS2. (For what its worth, reports showed that DC sales were on average roughly on par with those of the original Xbox.)
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
I don't understand this notion of Nintendo fans not wanting to buy western third party games. The real reason Nintendo fans don't buy third party games is because most of the time it ends up being a shitty port or a game that's 3 fucking years old. I mean you can buy these ports cheaper on other consoles. The Wii showed most western third parties half assing ports even though it was the best selling console. Although I'll give it to Unisoft because they actually do try, but the rest naw.

I pretty much outlined it in my post.

A lot of Nintendo diehards are kind of nostalgic driven gamers who don't like shooters, racers, sports sims etc. Many love Nintendo because they love the cartoony art styles and don't like the trend toward photo realism in western AAA games. Many also prefer Nintendo's gameplay driven titles to the cinematic narrative driven games dominating the western AAA market.

Similarly, a lot of the western AAA mainstream market playing CoD, GTA, Madden et al. has no interest in Nintendo's "kiddy" and "cartoony" games.

I think people on GAF just can't take off their hardcore gamers glasses and view things as a more average gamer does. If you're one that likes Mario and GTA or Zelda and CoD or Mario Kart and Gran Tourismo etc. etc. you're a pretty damn hardcore gamer with far broader genre and art style interest than the mainstream gamers that make up most of the market.

The Nintendo style game and the western AAA style game are very different and there's just not a ton of overlap in fanbases outside of the hardcore that like way more types of games than the average Joe.

Even ignoring all that, the move to online gaming has made it harder for Nintendo to get back into it now that they're launching mid generation. Even if they had full AAA support, people playing mostly online Western AAA games couldn't switch unless all their friends also buy NXs and start playing those games there instead of PS4/X1/PC. Switches can happen, as we saw with 360 gamers jumping to PS4--but really only when the next gen options launch around the same time. Mid-gen, most people are settled into a console and online platform.

So again, the success of the NX will be down to their first party games and Japanese exclusives. For me, really just the first party games as I don't care for the types of Japanese exclusives the 3DS and Vita got.

So I'm still leaning toward the drifting away from Nintendo phase--though really more just drifting away from console gaming since getting a gaming PC finally. Just too much hassle owning hardware for what ends up being a handful of personal must play games. I can't wait for the future when every game is available in streaming apps and all this proprietary hardware nonsense is a thing of the past/optional for those who prefer it. But for Nintendo, I just can't see them winning me over again given the 3DS and Wii U libraries combined still underwhelmed me as I'm really just into shooters, WRPGs, action/adventure games and simcade racers these days. I'll need to see a lot more Zelda, Splatoon, Metroid type games and fewer Mario, Kirby, Animal Crossing, Pokemon, Monster Hunter etc. type games for me to bother.
 

maxcriden

Member
Given that it looks like no announcements are being made today, I would say either the original rumour about it being revealed next week is bullshit, or Nintendo are going to botch the marketing up again.

They should really look at what Apple and Sony do with their keynotes and PS Experience events. Announce them in advance and invite press or whatever. Give it time for social media and tech bloggers to drum up a bit of conversation and buzz online. Then make a show of the unveiling, make it a big deal, full blowout with demos for guests etc. Followed by an aggressive marketing campaign. Between PSVR, PS4 Pro, Xbox One S, Xbox Scorpio, iPhones, gaming PC's etc, there are dozens things customers can buy over an NX, and they if they don't market it properly, it will wither and die (irrespective of hardware).

I think you mentioned in an earlier post that Nintendo would need to send invites today for a presser next week. FWIW it's possible that (a) press have long ago received invites for an event and are embargoed from talking about it (since from what we know Nintendo usually gives 3 weeks' notice to press of an event for travel prep time purposes), or (b) the initial reveal will be through a Nintendo Direct and/or press release only and will not include a press event.
 

10k

Banned
I don't think the Vita (or the PSP) are particularly good analogs for the potential success or failure of the "console games on a handheld" aspect of NX. For one, while Vita may have had "console-like" games, by and large it didn't get actual mainstream console games. While console gamers were playing Uncharted 2, Vita owners got Golden Abyss, ditto with AC:III/AC:Liberation, CoD:BLOPS/CoD:BLOPS Declassified, Resistance III/Resistance Burning Skies, etc, etc. From both technical and business perspectives, NX is in a very different place than Vita was.

From a technical perspective, the NX (from what we know) has a number of big advantages Vita didn't:


  • A far bigger resolution gap with contemporary home consoles
    When Vita launched in late 2011 with a 28 Gflop GPU and a 540p screen, home consoles were targeting only slightly higher resolutions with almost 10x more GPU grunt (720p and ~240 Gflops, meaning Vita had only approximately 20% of the performance per pixel). When PS4 arrived a couple of years later, it increased GPU power far more than it did resolution, dropping Vita down to just 6% of its performance on a per-pixel basis.

    While people may point to PS4 Pro and Scorpio as evidence that a handheld NX couldn't possibly keep up, they seem to be forgetting that this performance boost is almost entirely consumed by a huge resolution jump, and Nintendo are being far more conservative with NX's resolution than Sony were with Vita. If the 6Tflop Scorpio is indeed going to be running games at native 4K, then a handheld running a 720p screen (nine times fewer pixels) doesn't actually need to be immensely powerful to keep up. If we're conservative and assume that NX hits 300 Gflops and we ignore FP16, even then NX would be hitting 45% of the performance per pixel of Scorpio, far higher than Vita was to its contemporaries. On the other end of the spectrum, assuming a slightly more powerful NX and full use of FP16, it's well within the realm of possibility that NX could hit 1 Tflop in handheld mode, giving it 150% of the performance per pixel of a 4K res Scorpio game, meaning it would actually be pushing the more sophisticated graphical effects of the two.

    (Incidentally, my most likely scenario for NX's GPU [2x SM, 785MHz, 1.5W] with 80% of shader code running at FP16 would put the NX at almost exactly 100% ops-per-pixel parity with a 4K Scorpio.)
  • A CPU on par with (or potentially exceeding) contemporary home consoles
    This one's fairly self explanatory. Vita launched with a quad-core A9 CPU running at 330MHz at a time when PS3 was sporting a 3.2GHz Cell processor which was over 50x as powerful on paper. Even a cheap octo-core A53 solution for NX would put them within touching distance of Jaguar, and a combo of A53s and a few A57/A72/A73s could potentially push NX over the top (and we've heard rumours to indicate that this is indeed the case). While much of the GPU's workload scales pretty linearly with resolution, this isn't true for CPUs, which can make porting a game to a system with a much less powerful CPU extremely difficult or even impossible, something which shouldn't be an issue for NX.
  • Highly scalable game engines
    While multiplatform game engines were commonplace at Vita's launch, the notion of a single engine which is designed to scale from a mobile phone to a top of the line gaming PC was pretty alien. Nowadays, however, the most popular third-party engines are almost all designed to scale from systems far weaker than NX to ones far more powerful than Scorpio, and development has been consolidated to fewer and fewer engines (meaning fewer people need to do the work of actually porting game engines to NX). Where for many PS360 (and certainly PS4) games it would have been extremely technically challenging, if not impossible, to port the engine to Vita, the majority of modern game engines (even internal ones like Frostbite) already accommodate hardware like NX's, and the amount of time required to get the median PS4/XBO game up and running on NX should be orders of magnitude less than to get the median PS360 game running on Vita.
  • Desktop-class GPU architecture
    While the PowerVR GPU in Vita was very capable for a handheld of its time (and actually more feature rich than RSX in certain attributes), it was nonetheless a different architecture, with a different feature set, than any developers working on PS360 games would have been used to. A small number of developers with backgrounds in iOS development may have had some experience to leverage, but working within OpenGL ES and on quickly-iterated hardware wouldn't have given them much of a chance to learn how to tightly optimise to the extent typical in console development.

    When it comes to NX, though, the Maxwell/Pascal architecture is not only feature-complete with Nintendo's GCN-based competitors, but unlike PowerVR 5-series, it's an architecture which is extremely well known and understood by a huge proportion of engine programmers. Every single multiplatform game engine out there effectively has to be reasonably well optimised for the architecture already, as the majority of PC gamers are using either it or one of its predecessors, and it's extremely well-documented for those engine programmers who do wish to push that optimisation even further. This also ties into the previous point, as game engines are both more scalable to NX's performance level and better optimised to its GPU architecture than was ever the case with Vita.
  • Much larger game cards
    When Vita launched with game cards maxing out at 4GB, PS3 was running games from 50GB Blu-Rays. Today, PS4 Pro is still limited by the same 50GB Blu-Rays, but NX's game cards will almost certainly be capable of scaling up to 64GB or even higher.
What all of the above combines to mean is that NX should be technically capable of handling ports of pretty much any third party game. Even if the developers have to put work into scaling down assets and removing effects to get the game running smoothly on NX, that's still orders of magnitude lower cost than the Vita approach, which was to build an entirely new game from scratch. It's also a far better end product for gamers, as they get to play exactly the same game as on competing platforms, as opposed to a cheap spin-off from a B-tier team.

This means that the process of bringing big-budget console games to NX will be far cheaper, and hence far lower risk than it was with Vita, and will produce much better results. The big question is whether western third parties will give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt like they gave Sony with the PSP (and less so the Vita). Nintendo seems to be doing everything they need to on the technical front to keep NX viable for third parties, but it remains to be seen how successful they'll be on convincing western third parties of the business case for developing for NX.
Beautiful post. I hope it gets western AAA support.
 

jonno394

Member
Hey, have you heard anything more to support an NX delay since you kinda-sorta hinted at it a few weeks back?

Come on, these guys don't answer questions, they just give responses that indicate they may or may not know stuff, and just obscure enough that some will think the former, others the latter.
 
I don't think the Vita (or the PSP) are particularly good analogs for the potential success or failure of the "console games on a handheld" aspect of NX. For one, while Vita may have had "console-like" games, by and large it didn't get actual mainstream console games. While console gamers were playing Uncharted 2, Vita owners got Golden Abyss, ditto with AC:III/AC:Liberation, CoD:BLOPS/CoD:BLOPS Declassified, Resistance III/Resistance Burning Skies, etc, etc. From both technical and business perspectives, NX is in a very different place than Vita was.

From a technical perspective, the NX (from what we know) has a number of big advantages Vita didn't:


  • A far bigger resolution gap with contemporary home consoles
    When Vita launched in late 2011 with a 28 Gflop GPU and a 540p screen, home consoles were targeting only slightly higher resolutions with almost 10x more GPU grunt (720p and ~240 Gflops, meaning Vita had only approximately 20% of the performance per pixel). When PS4 arrived a couple of years later, it increased GPU power far more than it did resolution, dropping Vita down to just 6% of its performance on a per-pixel basis.

    While people may point to PS4 Pro and Scorpio as evidence that a handheld NX couldn't possibly keep up, they seem to be forgetting that this performance boost is almost entirely consumed by a huge resolution jump, and Nintendo are being far more conservative with NX's resolution than Sony were with Vita. If the 6Tflop Scorpio is indeed going to be running games at native 4K, then a handheld running a 720p screen (nine times fewer pixels) doesn't actually need to be immensely powerful to keep up. If we're conservative and assume that NX hits 300 Gflops and we ignore FP16, even then NX would be hitting 45% of the performance per pixel of Scorpio, far higher than Vita was to its contemporaries. On the other end of the spectrum, assuming a slightly more powerful NX and full use of FP16, it's well within the realm of possibility that NX could hit 1 Tflop in handheld mode, giving it 150% of the performance per pixel of a 4K res Scorpio game, meaning it would actually be pushing the more sophisticated graphical effects of the two.

    (Incidentally, my most likely scenario for NX's GPU [2x SM, 785MHz, 1.5W] with 80% of shader code running at FP16 would put the NX at almost exactly 100% ops-per-pixel parity with a 4K Scorpio.)
  • A CPU on par with (or potentially exceeding) contemporary home consoles
    This one's fairly self explanatory. Vita launched with a quad-core A9 CPU running at 330MHz at a time when PS3 was sporting a 3.2GHz Cell processor which was over 50x as powerful on paper. Even a cheap octo-core A53 solution for NX would put them within touching distance of Jaguar, and a combo of A53s and a few A57/A72/A73s could potentially push NX over the top (and we've heard rumours to indicate that this is indeed the case). While much of the GPU's workload scales pretty linearly with resolution, this isn't true for CPUs, which can make porting a game to a system with a much less powerful CPU extremely difficult or even impossible, something which shouldn't be an issue for NX.
  • Highly scalable game engines
    While multiplatform game engines were commonplace at Vita's launch, the notion of a single engine which is designed to scale from a mobile phone to a top of the line gaming PC was pretty alien. Nowadays, however, the most popular third-party engines are almost all designed to scale from systems far weaker than NX to ones far more powerful than Scorpio, and development has been consolidated to fewer and fewer engines (meaning fewer people need to do the work of actually porting game engines to NX). Where for many PS360 (and certainly PS4) games it would have been extremely technically challenging, if not impossible, to port the engine to Vita, the majority of modern game engines (even internal ones like Frostbite) already accommodate hardware like NX's, and the amount of time required to get the median PS4/XBO game up and running on NX should be orders of magnitude less than to get the median PS360 game running on Vita.
  • Desktop-class GPU architecture
    While the PowerVR GPU in Vita was very capable for a handheld of its time (and actually more feature rich than RSX in certain attributes), it was nonetheless a different architecture, with a different feature set, than any developers working on PS360 games would have been used to. A small number of developers with backgrounds in iOS development may have had some experience to leverage, but working within OpenGL ES and on quickly-iterated hardware wouldn't have given them much of a chance to learn how to tightly optimise to the extent typical in console development.

    When it comes to NX, though, the Maxwell/Pascal architecture is not only feature-complete with Nintendo's GCN-based competitors, but unlike PowerVR 5-series, it's an architecture which is extremely well known and understood by a huge proportion of engine programmers. Every single multiplatform game engine out there effectively has to be reasonably well optimised for the architecture already, as the majority of PC gamers are using either it or one of its predecessors, and it's extremely well-documented for those engine programmers who do wish to push that optimisation even further. This also ties into the previous point, as game engines are both more scalable to NX's performance level and better optimised to its GPU architecture than was ever the case with Vita.
  • Much larger game cards
    When Vita launched with game cards maxing out at 4GB, PS3 was running games from 50GB Blu-Rays. Today, PS4 Pro is still limited by the same 50GB Blu-Rays, but NX's game cards will almost certainly be capable of scaling up to 64GB or even higher.
What all of the above combines to mean is that NX should be technically capable of handling ports of pretty much any third party game. Even if the developers have to put work into scaling down assets and removing effects to get the game running smoothly on NX, that's still orders of magnitude lower cost than the Vita approach, which was to build an entirely new game from scratch. It's also a far better end product for gamers, as they get to play exactly the same game as on competing platforms, as opposed to a cheap spin-off from a B-tier team.

This means that the process of bringing big-budget console games to NX will be far cheaper, and hence far lower risk than it was with Vita, and will produce much better results. The big question is whether western third parties will give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt like they gave Sony with the PSP (and less so the Vita). Nintendo seems to be doing everything they need to on the technical front to keep NX viable for third parties, but it remains to be seen how successful they'll be on convincing western third parties of the business case for developing for NX.

Great post, thank you as always for the very interesting technical discussion. I actually miss when that discussion was the bulk of the NX talk in the various Tegra threads. People seemed to slowly slip from Pascal Tegra being around or just under XBONE performance to barely ahead of Wii U performance. Obviously the reality will be less discrete than that, but it's helpful to repeat that this will be a much bigger leap over the Wii U than many people seem to think, if not just in terms of Floppage.



Regarding that French "leak" which is obviously bullshit, it did raise one idea that I'm curious about if anyone wants to discuss it- the NX streaming to the dock/stationary portion, where the dock has its own processors which, together with the NX handheld "boost" the game performance to PS4 levels.

I don't think this is happening, but I wonder if it's actually even possible. Does anyone have any idea? I know about Nvidia SLI, but is that something which is technically feasible to do over a wireless connection, at a low enough latency required for games? This sounds similar to the SCD idea, though in reading through that patent they never specifically mentioned parallel processing GPUs. I also remember a while back LCGeek hinting that the NX will have a bigger focus on "streaming" than most people were guessing, but I don't know if this could be what that is about.

Any thoughts about that?
 
I think you mentioned in an earlier post that Nintendo would need to send invites today for a presser next week. FWIW it's possible that (a) press have long ago received invites for an event and are embargoed from talking about it (since from what we know Nintendo usually gives 3 weeks' notice to press of an event for travel prep time purposes), or (b) the initial reveal will be through a Nintendo Direct and/or press release only and will not include a press event.

I'm fairly sure it's the latter, *if* the reveal is this month. I haven't seen anything to suggest the gaming press knows any more about a reveal date than we do.
 

Mega

Banned
I don't think the Vita (or the PSP) are particularly good analogs for the potential success or failure of the "console games on a handheld" aspect of NX. For one, while Vita may have had "console-like" games, by and large it didn't get actual mainstream console games. While console gamers were playing Uncharted 2, Vita owners got Golden Abyss, ditto with AC:III/AC:Liberation, CoD:BLOPS/CoD:BLOPS Declassified, Resistance III/Resistance Burning Skies, etc, etc. From both technical and business perspectives, NX is in a very different place than Vita was.

From a technical perspective, the NX (from what we know) has a number of big advantages Vita didn't:

----

This means that the process of bringing big-budget console games to NX will be far cheaper, and hence far lower risk than it was with Vita, and will produce much better results. The big question is whether western third parties will give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt like they gave Sony with the PSP (and less so the Vita). Nintendo seems to be doing everything they need to on the technical front to keep NX viable for third parties, but it remains to be seen how successful they'll be on convincing western third parties of the business case for developing for NX.

That's as good an explanation as one can give on why the NX will be nothing like a Vita or 3DS if what we know is true.
 
Come on, these guys don't answer questions, they just give responses that indicate they may or may not know stuff, and just obscure enough that some will think the former, others the latter.
You don't need inside information to know FFXV is not currently in development for NX. That game is held together with rubber bands and glue right now, and they can't even get an assuredly profitable PC version out at launch. NX is probably not a high priority.
 

KingBroly

Banned
I don't think the Vita (or the PSP) are particularly good analogs for the potential success or failure of the "console games on a handheld" aspect of NX. For one, while Vita may have had "console-like" games, by and large it didn't get actual mainstream console games. While console gamers were playing Uncharted 2, Vita owners got Golden Abyss, ditto with AC:III/AC:Liberation, CoD:BLOPS/CoD:BLOPS Declassified, Resistance III/Resistance Burning Skies, etc, etc. From both technical and business perspectives, NX is in a very different place than Vita was.

From a technical perspective, the NX (from what we know) has a number of big advantages Vita didn't:


  • A far bigger resolution gap with contemporary home consoles
    When Vita launched in late 2011 with a 28 Gflop GPU and a 540p screen, home consoles were targeting only slightly higher resolutions with almost 10x more GPU grunt (720p and ~240 Gflops, meaning Vita had only approximately 20% of the performance per pixel). When PS4 arrived a couple of years later, it increased GPU power far more than it did resolution, dropping Vita down to just 6% of its performance on a per-pixel basis.

    While people may point to PS4 Pro and Scorpio as evidence that a handheld NX couldn't possibly keep up, they seem to be forgetting that this performance boost is almost entirely consumed by a huge resolution jump, and Nintendo are being far more conservative with NX's resolution than Sony were with Vita. If the 6Tflop Scorpio is indeed going to be running games at native 4K, then a handheld running a 720p screen (nine times fewer pixels) doesn't actually need to be immensely powerful to keep up. If we're conservative and assume that NX hits 300 Gflops and we ignore FP16, even then NX would be hitting 45% of the performance per pixel of Scorpio, far higher than Vita was to its contemporaries. On the other end of the spectrum, assuming a slightly more powerful NX and full use of FP16, it's well within the realm of possibility that NX could hit 1 Tflop in handheld mode, giving it 150% of the performance per pixel of a 4K res Scorpio game, meaning it would actually be pushing the more sophisticated graphical effects of the two.

    (Incidentally, my most likely scenario for NX's GPU [2x SM, 785MHz, 1.5W] with 80% of shader code running at FP16 would put the NX at almost exactly 100% ops-per-pixel parity with a 4K Scorpio.)
  • A CPU on par with (or potentially exceeding) contemporary home consoles
    This one's fairly self explanatory. Vita launched with a quad-core A9 CPU running at 330MHz at a time when PS3 was sporting a 3.2GHz Cell processor which was over 50x as powerful on paper. Even a cheap octo-core A53 solution for NX would put them within touching distance of Jaguar, and a combo of A53s and a few A57/A72/A73s could potentially push NX over the top (and we've heard rumours to indicate that this is indeed the case). While much of the GPU's workload scales pretty linearly with resolution, this isn't true for CPUs, which can make porting a game to a system with a much less powerful CPU extremely difficult or even impossible, something which shouldn't be an issue for NX.
  • Highly scalable game engines
    While multiplatform game engines were commonplace at Vita's launch, the notion of a single engine which is designed to scale from a mobile phone to a top of the line gaming PC was pretty alien. Nowadays, however, the most popular third-party engines are almost all designed to scale from systems far weaker than NX to ones far more powerful than Scorpio, and development has been consolidated to fewer and fewer engines (meaning fewer people need to do the work of actually porting game engines to NX). Where for many PS360 (and certainly PS4) games it would have been extremely technically challenging, if not impossible, to port the engine to Vita, the majority of modern game engines (even internal ones like Frostbite) already accommodate hardware like NX's, and the amount of time required to get the median PS4/XBO game up and running on NX should be orders of magnitude less than to get the median PS360 game running on Vita.
  • Desktop-class GPU architecture
    While the PowerVR GPU in Vita was very capable for a handheld of its time (and actually more feature rich than RSX in certain attributes), it was nonetheless a different architecture, with a different feature set, than any developers working on PS360 games would have been used to. A small number of developers with backgrounds in iOS development may have had some experience to leverage, but working within OpenGL ES and on quickly-iterated hardware wouldn't have given them much of a chance to learn how to tightly optimise to the extent typical in console development.

    When it comes to NX, though, the Maxwell/Pascal architecture is not only feature-complete with Nintendo's GCN-based competitors, but unlike PowerVR 5-series, it's an architecture which is extremely well known and understood by a huge proportion of engine programmers. Every single multiplatform game engine out there effectively has to be reasonably well optimised for the architecture already, as the majority of PC gamers are using either it or one of its predecessors, and it's extremely well-documented for those engine programmers who do wish to push that optimisation even further. This also ties into the previous point, as game engines are both more scalable to NX's performance level and better optimised to its GPU architecture than was ever the case with Vita.
  • Much larger game cards
    When Vita launched with game cards maxing out at 4GB, PS3 was running games from 50GB Blu-Rays. Today, PS4 Pro is still limited by the same 50GB Blu-Rays, but NX's game cards will almost certainly be capable of scaling up to 64GB or even higher.
What all of the above combines to mean is that NX should be technically capable of handling ports of pretty much any third party game. Even if the developers have to put work into scaling down assets and removing effects to get the game running smoothly on NX, that's still orders of magnitude lower cost than the Vita approach, which was to build an entirely new game from scratch. It's also a far better end product for gamers, as they get to play exactly the same game as on competing platforms, as opposed to a cheap spin-off from a B-tier team.

This means that the process of bringing big-budget console games to NX will be far cheaper, and hence far lower risk than it was with Vita, and will produce much better results. The big question is whether western third parties will give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt like they gave Sony with the PSP (and less so the Vita). Nintendo seems to be doing everything they need to on the technical front to keep NX viable for third parties, but it remains to be seen how successful they'll be on convincing western third parties of the business case for developing for NX.

Okay, so how much does that equate to in terms of cost?
 
Not directly related to the rumors, but AMD's 460, 470, and 480 are getting revisions in power and power consumption.

460/Polaris 11 is going from 75 watts and 2.15 GPU to 50 watts and getting a 2.5 teraflops bump.

470 and 480/Polaris 11 watt usage will be around 95 watts un the revision.
http://wccftech.com/amd-polaris-revisions-performance-per-watt/

IF Nintendo is really going with AMD instead of Nvidia, 2.5TFLOPs would definitely put it ahead if ps4 and goes along with the French guy's rumors.
 

Aroll

Member
What doesn't make sense is breath of wild on NX sounding like it will only look marginally better than the Wii u version. A console like PS4 is close to 10x more powerful than the Wii U. Makes bo sense really.

Other than that.. 15 games at 40% 3rd party, 60% 1st(half being new and others being remasters) adds up to 6 3rd party games and 9 1st party. I wonder what all thr games will be.

I hope the rumor is true, but I'm keeping my expectations low. I don't know how Nintendo could sell at $300 at a profit. They might have to take a loss, but they could make up with the bundle version.

It's because of art style baby. See, it may have no aliasing, tripple buffering, a longer view distance, native 1080p with either a locked or stable 30fps (possibly 60), but to the end consumer all of this looks, in quick side by side comparisons, relatively the same to what the Wii U version is despite a likely lower rez, lower frame rate, smaller view distance, etc.

Heck the NX version probably has less pop-in too. To many folks - all that matters greatly. But on the bare surface level just glancing, some may be hard pressed to instantly point out which version is which. This isn't some ultra realistic art style that is going to show huge gains because you throw more power at it. It would jus tbe something that basically looks the same with vastly improved performance metrics.
 

Metalmarc

Member
NeXt Wiik? You say

Lets play guess the Console name see if anyone comes close

Nintendo X-tra
Nintendo Nexx
Nintendo Duality
Nintendo Unity
Nintendo Amity
Nintendo Harmony
 

KingBroly

Banned
Well a device sporting a Tegra + ARM setup and a 720p isn't necessarily expensive. That could easily be less than $200.

It will be other components(detachable controllers, rumble, etc) that would drive up costs.

Wasn't the talk that the detachable controllers part will make it cheaper than usual somehow?
 

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
YO BAYONETTA 3?

s3ou1t.gif
 

EDarkness

Member
I don't understand this notion of Nintendo fans not wanting to buy western third party games. The real reason Nintendo fans don't buy third party games is because most of the time it ends up being a shitty port or a game that's 3 fucking years old. I mean you can buy these ports cheaper on other consoles. The Wii showed most western third parties half assing ports even though it was the best selling console. Although I'll give it to Unisoft because they actually do try, but the rest naw.

I guess I go against the grain, because I hardly ever buy Nintendo games on Nintendo platforms. Most of my games are 3rd party. My issue with buying 3rd party games on Nintendo platforms is that they're always gimped in some way. If they put the same amount of effort in those ports compared to the others, then I bet those games would sell better. Companies aren't charities and so if the game is a crappy port, why the hell do those games deserve to sell? Resident Evil 4 did quite well on the Wii and it wasn't a crappy port. So those games can sell if they're worth a damn.
 

Rodin

Member
Next week? Eh, i doubt it, but would be nice to finally hear something.

Fuck if this is all true the console seems way below the standard i was expecting it to

WTF is this shit. Local only on Portable Monster Hunter? Literally going backwards so Im calling bullshit
You said yourself that it isn't though, so
 
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