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Marvels Punisher Pulled From New York Comic-Con Following Las Vegas Shooting
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
Frozenprince
Banned
Punisher has been creepy and wrong since his inception. He was introduced to be a tragic villain to Spider-Man. A man who came from a similar place as Peter, who lost a loved one, but chose instead of honoring them and using his ability for what was right, he goes out and murders anybody he deems "bad". He's SUPPOSED to be a villain.
It's why his "heel turn" in the 70's on was always super creepy and why whenever there's a good writer on the book they do as hard a job as possible to make him do anything BUT kill people.
He's a character that's long needed to be retired as a hero, he should be presented as he is, a villain, a bad person.
It's why his "heel turn" in the 70's on was always super creepy and why whenever there's a good writer on the book they do as hard a job as possible to make him do anything BUT kill people.
He's a character that's long needed to be retired as a hero, he should be presented as he is, a villain, a bad person.
LordOfLore
Banned
There has been billboards and posters up.
I love the Punisher, but this is absolutely the right thing to do. There's a time and a place for shows like this, and a week after a mass shooting is not one of them.
Also, people who venerate the character rather than see him as a broken monster that kills other monsters are out of their minds. He's effectively a villain protagonist, especially when many of his comics revealed that he's been into killing since before his family was killed. Moreover, situations like Vegas reveal that his brand of vigilante justice is absolutely worthless in the face of reality, so there's an extra layer of horribly dangerous stupidity for people who think his methods would actually work in reality.
Also, people who venerate the character rather than see him as a broken monster that kills other monsters are out of their minds. He's effectively a villain protagonist, especially when many of his comics revealed that he's been into killing since before his family was killed. Moreover, situations like Vegas reveal that his brand of vigilante justice is absolutely worthless in the face of reality, so there's an extra layer of horribly dangerous stupidity for people who think his methods would actually work in reality.
arts&crafts
Member
I really need to get out more.
Yeah but I find it a bit tone deaf considering what just happened. To call your event terror in a game where you kill each other with guns.
Frozenprince
Banned
It's about Halloween. Terror is associated with the holiday pretty much 1:1
CoolestSpot
Banned
Isn't he most of the time, however? I don't know, in most books I've read he's treated as someone with good intentions whose gone way too far, as a madman. But I could be offbase, various writers over the years and everything means he's constantly shifting to whatever the author wants. I agree with all of your points, however.
Overwatch is a game about guns, but there's a big distinct tone discrepancy between a game with robots, ninjas, and talking gorillas, versus a psychopath whose whole hook is that he ceaselessly murders people in the streets.
soundscream
Member
Military im ok with, its the cops that are a problem.
I liked the Punisher in the 90s spider-man animated series epic fight with "man spider"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1WQ8ge0QT2Y
Then you understand him
Thatonemoor
Member
I.... What???? You know the word Terror in that context is about ghost and ghouls and Halloween right? Not about a terror attack. I mean they are the same word but context matters man. Who cares if Blizzards hero shooter characters decide to play dressup for a month. Doesn't have anything to do with Vegas.
I understand what your saying. We do need to be sensitive and caring. I think blizzard is ok bc the game has been out for a while and the terror is about halloween.
Punisher has much stronger correlations
Uh...
It's not like Netflix/Marvel have much control in that area...
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Why the military? Why would anyone respect the man? It's fine to acknowledge it as just a comic but the moment you paint it on your uniform and shit you kind of go a bit off the edge. He's a relic of poor gun control in the United States where he conveniently has a respect boner for the police.
Wait... it makes sense now.
I cracked the code!!!!!!!
PoorChoices
Member
Here's a fun statistic: Netflix accounts for (at least as of 2015) 37% of all downstream internet traffic. That includes pornography if you're wondering.
That might seem irrelevant, but all they have to do is put one of those text pages you see at the end of documentaries saying "While this series is obviously fiction, gun sales have-" and so on and they'd get a goddamn point across real quick.
So, while they may not choose to have control in that issue, they could if they wanted to.
Bill R Boggess
Member
Im not understanding the Punisher-bashing, the character has always been an anti-hero at best and is generally treated with distain by the bulk of the Marvel universe.
Ennis gave the character an incredible amount of depth and complexity because his version of Castle knows hes a monster but his rage which has reached a crescendo of genuine sociopathy supersedes his ability to stop murdering criminals yet hes also a tragic figure who is capable of introspection and occasional flourishes of genuine humanity. (The Barracuda arc where he discovers he has a daughter is gut-wrenching in places)
Ennis gave the character an incredible amount of depth and complexity because his version of Castle knows hes a monster but his rage which has reached a crescendo of genuine sociopathy supersedes his ability to stop murdering criminals yet hes also a tragic figure who is capable of introspection and occasional flourishes of genuine humanity. (The Barracuda arc where he discovers he has a daughter is gut-wrenching in places)
Bill R Boggess
Member
The irony is that Tony Stark is indirectly responsible for far more deaths than the Punisher could ever rack up if he lived multiple lifetimes.
And the amount of remorse they feel is inversely proportionate.
He does, the only person he has respect for is cap
Frank kills cops, military anyone. Cept cap.
Which is weird given some of the polices reverence for said character
Bill R Boggess
Member
I mean, since were discussing fictional characters and scenarios, I could argue that the Punisher given that he only kills violent criminals has less to be remorseful for than somebody like Stark, who made money on weapons that killed innocents.
Again, purely hypothetical but given that Stark is a genuine hero and the Punisher an antihero/villain, it's an interesting comparison.
I don't think remorse makes it better.
" i feel bad I doomed your planet to the incursion "
You still doomed somoene's planet to the incursion
" i feel bad that I shot you into space against your will bruce, i'm sorry "
He says as bruce punches him in the face
I think think frank is a damn psychopath , but I'm not gonna pretend that tony, or any of the illuminati members astronomical fuck ups , especially people like professor X , can be waved away at " i'm sorry"
I'm going to be a contrarian here. The world should not stop just because there is a tragedy. Would anyone really make a connection between Punisher and Vegas? Didn't even cross my mind. I can watch any number of ultra violent movies on TV right now if I want to so why is this any different? It may be cliche but living in fear is exactly what these sickos want. I will not stop living my life because of a lunatic and neither should anyone else.
The capacity for remorse is part of what allows a superhero to give a villain a chance to surrender. That's something Frank typically won't do.
soundscream
Member
Well tbh he isn't indiscriminately killing. And if you are in the military in a combat role you have to have a violent mentality, where as cops are supposed to protect and serve. Military and the Police serve diffrent functions and the line has been blurred since the creation of SWAT in the 1960's.
Shadow Broker
Banned
Sometime I come into a Neogaf thread, read through the comments, and... ... yeah, that's something I did...
Good move on Marvel for pulling this from the event. I'm sure they will find the right time to show what they were going to show at this event.
Good move on Marvel for pulling this from the event. I'm sure they will find the right time to show what they were going to show at this event.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
It doesn't have to stop, but making a big event out of it this week would have been insensitive to some. So delaying the publicity and launch was the best move.
metalslimer
Member
I thought that Daredevil season 2 did a decent job presenting him in the end as a villain. A villain that is not completely evil, but not someone worthy of respect either.
I'm extremely worried he will be completely glorified in his own show though.
I'm extremely worried he will be completely glorified in his own show though.
They didn't cancel the show. They are just giving the country the show is in time to heal.
entremet
Member
I think if you have him fighting organized crime exclusively, its not that bad. Its not like hes stopping and frisking young minority males in the streets.
Bill R Boggess
Member
True, and thats a damn fair point, but I also think its interesting to see some people acting as if the Punisher is entirely irredeemable as a character given what Tony has done in both the films and in the comics.
Especially considering how The Punisher is regarded by the heroes within the Marvel universe, most of which loathe him and only partner up when they are desperate as hell.
GravityInsanity
Member
I don't know how I'm going to feel watching this after what just happened in Las Vegas. Feels like the absolute worse time for the Punisher to be releasing this year or early 2018.
Bill R Boggess
Member
Yeah, I'm not certain why some people are acting as if The Punisher is that cop from the Ferguson incident.
Actually, the Ennis/MAX Punisher would have probably killed that cop...
... But they do that.
There are literally whole comics about his mental decent into madness, and it portraying as disgusting.
Like what?
Pai Pai Master
Banned
He would probably kill any of the cops who pulled shit like that.
There's basically never a good time to release it by that metric, seeing as how there are incredibly deadly mass shootings practically every year in this country. It only took a year and a half to top the previous "deadliest mass shooting in modern US history."
RoyaleDuke
Banned
The reality is that if someone like Frank actually did what Frank does in the MAX comics there would be tons of innocent civilian casualties, and in a couple arcs innocent people do die because of Frank's enemies thinking he was in one place when he was at another.
In the beginning of Kitchen Irish for example, a bomb goes off at the bar opposite a cafe Frank was sitting in, he later finds out that the bad guys expected him to be in the bar and not the cafe, but the blast still kills tons of innocent people and Frank lives...to go take down the Irish Mob in extremely violent fashion.
In comic books you don't have to think about overpenetration or ballistics, which is why they are comic books.
I do think they did a good thing by showing some taste and not bringing Frank up right now but I hope on a personal level they do release the series soon.
Also, Frank is a psychopath who occasionally has a point but the larger thing is that he's a fucking psycho, an unfortunate man turned into the monsters he hunts.
In the beginning of Kitchen Irish for example, a bomb goes off at the bar opposite a cafe Frank was sitting in, he later finds out that the bad guys expected him to be in the bar and not the cafe, but the blast still kills tons of innocent people and Frank lives...to go take down the Irish Mob in extremely violent fashion.
In comic books you don't have to think about overpenetration or ballistics, which is why they are comic books.
I do think they did a good thing by showing some taste and not bringing Frank up right now but I hope on a personal level they do release the series soon.
Also, Frank is a psychopath who occasionally has a point but the larger thing is that he's a fucking psycho, an unfortunate man turned into the monsters he hunts.
Bill R Boggess
Member
I guess I dont really see it as analogous.
If the show was about a similar type of sniper, Id understand the concern and regardless I think giving this a week or two delay is probably the decent thing to do but I dont really see the tragedy in Vegas reflected in this show or the character, other than the use of firearms.
Baraka Obama
Banned
Lol yeah guy is fucking ruthless especially the mcu version
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I'm probably one of the biggest fans of The Punisher here, but they made the right call here. That said, if it weren't for the tragedy, a shadow release on the eve of the panel would have been a cool marketing move.
The Punisher has always been a revenge fantasy-turned-cautionary tale. There's lots of various depictions of him, some have him on the verge of something noble, and others where he's a monstrous psycho with a veneer of 'professionalism'. I do think Bernthal's take on him and the Netflix interpretation definitely leans towards the lighter side of the spectrum (taking down murderous gangs, arms dealers, pedophiles, and corrupt branches of the US government). This isn't really MAX Frank Castle we're dealing with here. But again, considering he's a protagonist that gets by mass murder and blowing shit up and is a half-step away from being a domestic terrorist on his best days... yeah, Marvel made the right call.
That said, I hope they release the show this year and it ends up being good and doing well. Ultra-violence in television and fantasy is wholly different from real-life insanity.
The Punisher has always been a revenge fantasy-turned-cautionary tale. There's lots of various depictions of him, some have him on the verge of something noble, and others where he's a monstrous psycho with a veneer of 'professionalism'. I do think Bernthal's take on him and the Netflix interpretation definitely leans towards the lighter side of the spectrum (taking down murderous gangs, arms dealers, pedophiles, and corrupt branches of the US government). This isn't really MAX Frank Castle we're dealing with here. But again, considering he's a protagonist that gets by mass murder and blowing shit up and is a half-step away from being a domestic terrorist on his best days... yeah, Marvel made the right call.
That said, I hope they release the show this year and it ends up being good and doing well. Ultra-violence in television and fantasy is wholly different from real-life insanity.
BronsonLee
Member
Those pirates had it COMIN'
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
The police and military idolatry of Frank Castle has always been so fucking weird. Mostly because in-universe, most soldiers and Marines see Frank as a disgrace and stain on the US military at worst or a rogue tiger that needs to be put down at best. And Frank has straight up killed plenty of US soldiers and police officers, especially in the MAX series, but even as far back as the 90s. I mean, just off the top of my head:
1) He shotgunned FBI Agent Blackwell in the face in front of a news helicopter in the 90s. Fucker had it coming.
2) He drowned a rapist Marine in Vietnam
3) He walked a US General into sniper fire.
4) He left Martin Vanheim to die in Siberia
5) He gunned down a cabal of corrupt Army and Air Force generals in MAX.
6) He sent a corrupt NYPD officer back to the Eastern European HQ of human traffickers with a tape of him killing a man. The officer did not return.
7) He tortured and murdered a corrupt police officer during his feud with the Kingpin in MAX.
8) Under Hate-Monger's "hate ray" (that was some fucking garbage, fuck you Fraction), he murdered his partner's journalist girlfriend.
9) He threatened to murder the President of the United States to his face.
10) He blew up a fucking nuke.
I'm sure there's a few others.
Edit:
Oh yeah, there was also that time he gunned down a murderous priest with an M-249. I actually think that bit of Welcome Back, Frank is an important look into his character.
So there are three guys, a murderous priest who starts killing people cause he thinks God wants him to, there's a rich dude who starts murdering addicts and transients to keep his neighborhood clean, and there's this one douchebag trying to fight the system by killing corporate white collar criminals, and they decide to team up because they idolize Frank and want him to be their leader. He flatly declines and says very simply:
To the priest: You're a lunatic.
To the rich dude: You're a Nazi.
To the douchebag: You're sloppy and you murdered innocent people in your rampage.
And that's why none of them could be like him, cause it's a fucking comic book and Frank Castle never misses or directly kills innocent people or murders people cause they make the streets dirty.
Anyways, he just guns them all down.
[1] We can ignore all of that because he kills bad guys instead of captures!
That's really all that matters to Cops repping him.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
That's the disconnect between the actual content of the narrative and the idea that people have of him. They see a cool skull, hear he's a soldier out for justice and revenge and getting rid of the bad guys, and attach their identity to that without looking at context.
It's like people who idolize Batman cause he beats up villains and saves Gotham, but ignore the fact that he's a traumatized dude who creates as many problems as he solves. Cool symbol and gadgets, but there's an actual character there that is more multi-faceted than people care to look into. But then again, Frank straight up murders dudes, so it's easier to have more extreme reactions with a character like that.
Maintenance
Member
Good.
Just don't delay the actual series please.
styl3s
Member
If i was Netflix i wouldn't and if i felt push back from the community i would push it to the 13th. Terrible tragedy and i understand pulling it from the event but at some point it has to air.