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[DarkLordMalik]

Joker 3's low sales have already been explained to you repeatedly. That remakes sold better even supports that Monsters games on 3DS could (and should) do better than it performed. We'll see how Joker 3 Pro turns out.

VII to VIII decline is also pretty readily understandable (full remake vs improved port, recent iOS/Android DQVIII release). I'm not sure how either example makes any case for DQ declining in popularily enough for your claim it will shed a million+ sales for the mainline series.

I love when people bring in critical reception to show that the sales declined . Not saying it doesn't have an effect on sales, but the same point can be used to explain the decline of many games.

Leaving Joker 3 aside, the Remakes were already declining in sales from part 1 to 2, there was a drop in sales. How do you explain that?

DQVIII was more than an 'improved' port as it also had additional new content, fully voiced, Orchestral tracks, new characters along with QoL additions that made it more than a port. Did the mobile version sell in millions or had any notable sales? Because if it didn't, then I don't see why it should matter here?

In Japan, there is one gaming franchise that is an evergreen franchise like Pokémon and it's called Dragon Quest.

One argument you kept using but it's so wrong is to use FF as a comparison for DQ. FF has been in decline since FF8. DQ has been consistent and even saw growth in the last main single player entry.

I used FF in comparison when people brought the mobile popularity of the series. I wanted to point out that the success on mobile doesn't matter much for success on dedicated gaming device.

I agree that the comparison isn't valid if we are simply talking about the sales of the franchise on dedicated gaming device.

 

[horuhe]

Pokemon is an evergreen franchise. There is nothing in gaming history like Pokemon.

In Japan, there is one gaming franchise that is an evergreen franchise like Pokémon and it's called Dragon Quest.

MAINKURAFUTO, guys!

 

[MacTag]

I love when people bring in critical reception to show that the sales declined . Not saying it doesn't have an effect on sales, but the same point can be used to explain the decline of many games.

Leaving Joker 3 aside, the Remakes were already declining in sales from part 1 to 2, there was a drop in sales. How do you explain that?

DQVIII was more than an 'improved' port as it also had additional new content, fully voiced, Orchestral tracks, new characters along with QoL additions that made it more than a port. Did the mobile version sell in millions or had any notable sales? Because if it didn't, then I don't see why it should matter here?

Critical reception isn't the explanation in Joker 3's case, it still reviewed okay. It was really word of mouth due to the low amount of content by series standards. Also the lack of promotion and backing on SE's part likely had an impact.

DQM1 was the more popular game. DQM1 also outsold DQM2 on GBC and by an even greater margin.

DQVIII was exactly an improved port. The extra content is the improved part and in some respects the visuals also took a hit. The mobile port sold between 100k-500k in Japan on Android and likely more on iOS. So minimum DQVIII sold over 1m between 3DS, Android and iOS and in reality it's likely much much higher.

I used FF in comparison when people brought the mobile popularity of the series. I wanted to point out that the success on mobile doesn't matter much for success on dedicated gaming device.

I agree that the comparison isn't valid if we are simply talking about the sales of the franchise on dedicated gaming device.

And FF is inherently irrelevant for comparison, as you admit, so why even bring it up? You also tried using Pokémon although that one sort of doesn't support your argument at all.

 

[ethomaz]

In Japan, there is one gaming franchise that is an evergreen franchise like Pokémon and it's called Dragon Quest.

One argument you kept using but it's so wrong is to use FF as a comparison for DQ. FF has been in decline since FF8. DQ has been consistent and even saw growth in the last main single player entry.

DQ is historically more popular than FF in Japan too... outside Japan that FF holds a bigger name most because FFVII success.

 

[Jon Carter]

On another note a crosspost from the Switch thread. It looks like Switch won't be getting Monster Hunter at launch because Laura K Dale has said it's not at the Jan event.

I don't think not being at the conference necessarily means it won't be there at launch as they may be focusing on games that will be available worldwide. The conference is happening in Tokyo because it has to happen somewhere, but it's advertised in NA and Europe as well.

I don't think MHXX is a guarantee for the Switch launch, but it seems like the perfect storm. So I still expect it to come.

 

[Eolz]

I don't know, it sincerly would seem like a major mistake if we assume that

- her info on the European release date (March 17th) stands
- Switch's Japanese release date is the same week

That would translate into March 18th for Japan...right on the same day as MHXX.

It would be extremely bizarre, incredibly so. And, again, a major mistake.

Spoiler

I'm sure we'll see Aostia soon enough shouting at the falling sky, Switch as a mistakenly advertised product from the get go, yadda-yadda-yadda. Him Oregano-ing is by far the worst part of this

Well, it wouldn't be unexpected to have a launch port of XX HD there...

 

[Oregano]

I don't think not being at the conference necessarily means it won't be there at launch as they may be focusing on games that will be available worldwide. The conference is happening in Tokyo because it has to happen somewhere, but it's advertised in NA and Europe as well.

I don't think MHXX is a guarantee for the Switch launch, but it seems like the perfect storm. So I still expect it to come.

I'm not sure. Even if it was only there in Japan MH is the kind of key brand Nintendo would probably want to pimp out on stage.

 

[MacTag]

I'm not sure. Even if it was only there in Japan MH is the kind of key brand Nintendo would probably want to pimp out on stage.

MH is also big enough to warrant it's own event or reveal. It wouldn't be that weird if it was held back for that too.

 

[Oregano]

MH is also big enough to warrant it's own event or reveal. It wouldn't be that weird if it was held back for that too.

It already had that though when it was announced a few months ago. We're also presumably learning the launch lineups at the event otherwise it will be a really short turn around. Two months is already a short period for preorders.

 

[MacTag]

It already had that though when it was announced a few months ago. We're also presumably learning the launch lineups at the event otherwise it will be a really short turn around. Two months is already a short period for preorders.

It could be at the JP event only, it could be held back for a more general MH series announcement (MH5 Switch?), Capcom may want their own event to focus on 3DS/Switch interconnectivity, or just more attention, who knows? It's a short timetable but everything concerning Switch seems to be like that to an unprecedented degree.

 

[Oregano]

It could be at the JP event only, it could be held back for a more general MH series announcement (MH5 Switch?), Capcom may want their own event to focus on 3DS/Switch interconnectivity, or just more attention, who knows? It's a short timetable but everything concerning Switch seems to be like that to an unprecedented degree.

Well Laura's sources are seemingly all western based so being announced at the JP event outside of the main presentation could be possible.

 

[Eolz]

Well Laura's sources are seemingly all western based so being announced at the JP event outside of the main presentation could be possible.

Yeah, I don't remember her ever having rumors/leaks or even good sources for japanese games. Nor any other leakers to be fair.
Apart from maybe 2-3 posters here and Serkan Toto, nobody really leaks anything from japanese Nintendo-related projects.

 

[Celine]

All this talk about Dragon Quest is quite weird.
DQ is a quite stable performing series, the mainline games are very likely to sell more than 3 million units in Japan and there is no indication the brand got tarnished over time like what happened with Final Fantasy.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

If the speculation is about the Switch being able to play digital 3DS games is true, Capcom may not port MHXX to Switch directly because in their mind, it's already playable on the system.

 

[MacTag]

If the speculation is about the Switch being able to play digital 3DS games is true, Capcom may not port MHXX to Switch directly because in their mind, it's already playable on the system.

It won't play any 3DS games, unless it gets 3DS VC.

 

[duckroll]

There's a lot of talk these days about how FFXIII "tainted" the FF brand but I don't think that's really the thing at all. For long standing franchises which have had very different entries, it doesn't really work that way. What really hurts FF as a brand is that S-E has struggled to release significant FF titles regularly, and as such failed to establish the brand for a whole new younger generation.

Think about it this way: FFXIII came out in 2009, FFXII came out in 2006, and FFX came out in 2001. FFXI and FFXIV were MMOs. The last significant FF remakes or re-releases were the FFX/FFX-2 HD Remaster in 2013 and the FFIV DS remake in 2007.

If you are a 15 year old teenager looking at cool new games to play today. What would FF mean to you? Since you were 5 years old in 2006, the buzz around FF if you are into gaming would be of delays, failed announcements, failed launches, and since you were 8 years old, the only new single player FF game released would have been FFXIII and the subsequent sequels.

Meanwhile in the same time period, DQIX released on the DS, which was the most popular gaming platform of that time. On the same platform you could also get remakes of DQIV, DQV, and DQVI. Moving on to the 3DS, they continued to release older titles with DQVII and DQVIII.

It's interesting to see the difference in how FF and DQ have been handled, because essentially what I see now is that DQ continues to be a franchise for all ages, and even younger children in Japan today are able to embrace the series from its roots easily, and their older siblings or even parents could get them gateway titles to get into the franchise. On the other hand, FF has become a series exclusively for older audiences - young adults and working adults. People who grew up with FF. The percentage of the fanbase which are younger is probably very small.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

There's a lot of talk these days about how FFXIII "tainted" the FF brand but I don't think that's really the thing at all. For long standing franchises which have had very different entries, it doesn't really work that way. What really hurts FF as a brand is that S-E has struggled to release significant FF titles regularly, and as such failed to establish the brand for a whole new younger generation.

Think about it this way: FFXIII came out in 2009, FFXII came out in 2006, and FFX came out in 2001. FFXI and FFXIV were MMOs. The last significant FF remakes or re-releases were the FFX/FFX-2 HD Remaster in 2013 and the FFIV DS remake in 2007.

If you are a 15 year old teenager looking at cool new games to play today. What would FF mean to you? Since you were 5 years old in 2006, the buzz around FF if you are into gaming would be of delays, failed announcements, failed launches, and since you were 8 years old, the only new single player FF game released would have been FFXIII and the subsequent sequels.

Correct. They cant go 7 years between mainline single player games.

 

[Arzehn]

Correct. They cant go 7 years between mainline single player games.

Well... that's what DQ is about to do.

 

[ethomaz]

There's a lot of talk these days about how FFXIII "tainted" the FF brand but I don't think that's really the thing at all. For long standing franchises which have had very different entries, it doesn't really work that way. What really hurts FF as a brand is that S-E has struggled to release significant FF titles regularly, and as such failed to establish the brand for a whole new younger generation.

Think about it this way: FFXIII came out in 2009, FFXII came out in 2006, and FFX came out in 2001. FFXI and FFXIV were MMOs. The last significant FF remakes or re-releases were the FFX/FFX-2 HD Remaster in 2013 and the FFIV DS remake in 2007.

If you are a 15 year old teenager looking at cool new games to play today. What would FF mean to you? Since you were 5 years old in 2006, the buzz around FF if you are into gaming would be of delays, failed announcements, failed launches, and since you were 8 years old, the only new single player FF game released would have been FFXIII and the subsequent sequels.

Meanwhile in the same time period, DQIX released on the DS, which was the most popular gaming platform of that time. On the same platform you could also get remakes of DQIV, DQV, and DQVI. Moving on to the 3DS, they continued to release older titles with DQVII and DQVIII.

It's interesting to see the difference in how FF and DQ have been handled, because essentially what I see now is that DQ continues to be a franchise for all ages, and even younger children in Japan today are able to embrace the series from its roots easily, and their older siblings or even parents could get them gateway titles to get into the franchise. On the other hand, FF has become a series exclusively for older audiences - young adults and working adults. People who grew up with FF. The percentage of the fanbase which are younger is probably very small.

I agree with you.

To add I think SE is losing part of that old fan base with FFXIII and FFXV.

So these last release couldn't manage to attract a new fan base and at the same time it repeled part of the old fan base.

Well... that's what DQ is about to do.

Yeap but in these 7 years they remade the old titles for the young fan base... they created interest for the youngs at least in Japan.

 

[Kanann]

Teens and pre-teens may still choose FF over DQ, but they have learn from us old hag seniors that FF titles after XII jump in discount bin quick and not that good for wasting time.

 

[duckroll]

Well... that's what DQ is about to do.

Like I explained, there's a big difference if you are able to showcase catalog titles to a brand new audience to fill the gaps. S-E gave up on FF remakes after FFIV DS, when they could have continued and introduced the DS and 3DS audiences to FFV and FFVI. DQVII got a remake on 3DS before a FFVII remake was ever announced. They can't even get a FFXII HD remaster out before FFXV.

 

[ethomaz]

Teens and pre-teens may still choose FF over DQ, but they have learn from us old hag seniors that FF titles after XII jump in discount bin quick and not that good for wasting time.

Only outside Japan.

Teens and pre-teens will choose DQ over FF in Japan because the brand is stronger there and the old titles are released to modern platforms.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I dont think any amount of ports and remasters can make up for going over 5 years without a new mainline entry.

Dont get me wrong, i even like alot of the spin offs like type 0 and world of final fantasy, but i need the big mainline games.

 

[Arzehn]

Like I explained, there's a big difference if you are able to showcase catalog titles to a brand new audience to fill the gaps. S-E gave up on FF remakes after FFIV DS, when they could have continued and introduced the DS and 3DS audiences to FFV and FFVI. DQVII got a remake on 3DS before a FFVII remake was ever announced. They can't even get a FFXII HD remaster out before FFXV.

They ran through the mainline nintendo catalog pretty quickly, they had those PSP "hd" sprite remakes for 1&2 and then did 3 and 4 on DS, later PSP. Maybe not releasing 5 and 6 on 3ds was the blunder, but 3 and 4 were never big sellers.
I'm not sure what the relationship with Sony was for FF7+ because they never touched those for Nintendo hardware. Sony hardware on the other hand would require bigger budgets. Vita was never hot enough and PS3 would be too much manpower to devote to remakes.

They had their fair share of spinoffs.

 

[Toth]

There's a lot of talk these days about how FFXIII "tainted" the FF brand but I don't think that's really the thing at all. For long standing franchises which have had very different entries, it doesn't really work that way. What really hurts FF as a brand is that S-E has struggled to release significant FF titles regularly, and as such failed to establish the brand for a whole new younger generation.

Think about it this way: FFXIII came out in 2009, FFXII came out in 2006, and FFX came out in 2001. FFXI and FFXIV were MMOs. The last significant FF remakes or re-releases were the FFX/FFX-2 HD Remaster in 2013 and the FFIV DS remake in 2007.

If you are a 15 year old teenager looking at cool new games to play today. What would FF mean to you? Since you were 5 years old in 2006, the buzz around FF if you are into gaming would be of delays, failed announcements, failed launches, and since you were 8 years old, the only new single player FF game released would have been FFXIII and the subsequent sequels.

Meanwhile in the same time period, DQIX released on the DS, which was the most popular gaming platform of that time. On the same platform you could also get remakes of DQIV, DQV, and DQVI. Moving on to the 3DS, they continued to release older titles with DQVII and DQVIII.

It's interesting to see the difference in how FF and DQ have been handled, because essentially what I see now is that DQ continues to be a franchise for all ages, and even younger children in Japan today are able to embrace the series from its roots easily, and their older siblings or even parents could get them gateway titles to get into the franchise. On the other hand, FF has become a series exclusively for older audiences - young adults and working adults. People who grew up with FF. The percentage of the fanbase which are younger is probably very small.

Excellent post. I agree 100%. DQ also did not have to deal with a highly publicized mess like FF XIV 1.0 or the embarrassment of the Pay models in their mobile games such as FF ATB.

You did miss FF Type-0 though. However, the quality of that title was far more polarizing than FF XIII.

 

[duckroll]

They ran through the mainline nintendo catalog pretty quickly, they had those PSP "hd" sprite remakes for 1&2 and then did 3 and 4 on DS, later PSP. Maybe not releasing 5 and 6 on 3ds was the blunder.
I'm not sure what the relationship with Sony was for FF7+ because they never touched those for Nintendo hardware. Sony hardware on the other hand would require bigger budgets. Vita was never hot enough and PS3 would be too much manpower to devote to remakes.

They had their fair share of spinoffs.

Maybe S-E saw the writing on the wall when DQIV and FFIV both released on DS at about the same time, and DQIV sold 1.28 million while FFIV crawled to 648k. I guess that, along with the troubled development on the FF titles from 2006 onwards, and DQIX selling a series record high, basically made management look at FF very differently. I think it was a bad call though. They should have invested in making FF interesting for a new audience again right after FFIV underperformed. Make a FFV remake better than ever, then follow that up with FFVI. Instead well, we're where we are now.

 

[MacTag]

Crazy but I just realized FFIII DS will have outsold FFXV lifetime. Really an epic decline for the franchise in just a decade.

 

[Arzehn]

Maybe S-E saw the writing on the wall when DQIV and FFIV both released on DS at about the same time, and DQIV sold 1.28 million while FFIV crawled to 648k. I guess that, along with the troubled development on the FF titles from 2006 onwards, and DQIX selling a series record high, basically made management look at FF very differently. I think it was a bad call though. They should have invested in making FF interesting for a new audience again right after FFIV underperformed. Make a FFV remake better than ever, then follow that up with FFVI. Instead well, we're where we are now.

I wonder what they will do with World of Final Fantasy's sales data. Was it a case of too little too late? Explorers didn't do so hot either so i'm not sure if it was just platform mismanagement. Do they give up on trying to capture a new younger audience or try again, probably on other platforms... mobile I guess. I hope we get NPD leaks that will give a better picture of the future of the series.

Or maybe they're just making the wrong games. Everyone still loves Chocobo's and Moogles. I wonder how the original DQIX trailer (with the action gameplay) with a FF skin would sell.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Maybe S-E saw the writing on the wall when DQIV and FFIV both released on DS at about the same time, and DQIV sold 1.28 million while FFIV crawled to 648k. I guess that, along with the troubled development on the FF titles from 2006 onwards, and DQIX selling a series record high, basically made management look at FF very differently. I think it was a bad call though. They should have invested in making FF interesting for a new audience again right after FFIV underperformed. Make a FFV remake better than ever, then follow that up with FFVI. Instead well, we're where we are now.

What about 4 heroes of light and bravely default?

 

[duckroll]

I wonder what they will do with World of Final Fantasy's sales data. Was it a case of too little too late? Explorers didn't do so hot either so i'm not sure if it was just platform mismanagement. Do they give up on trying to capture a new younger audience or try again, probably on other platforms... mobile I guess.

I think it is hard to capture a younger audience with nostalgia/crossover bait when you fail to build the foundation for it. Dissidia Final Fantasy came out in 2008 and was very successful. Why? Because it was the perfect product at the perfect time. Released a decade after FFVIII, it captured everything from FF1 to FF12. So you have the peak of the FF franchise popularity in the late 90s, and all the kids who grew up in that period are now pumped to see a game with all these famous characters they have heard about even if they might not have played every game growing up. People who were in their teens at that period are now young adults who are excited that there's a badass action fighter with all the characters they loved.

Now fast forward another 6 years for FF Explorers. A decade before that release would be 2004. A period of the long wait between FFX and FFXII. Kids who grew up in this period already have less of an impression of the FF franchise. Young adults who were excited for Dissidia might have moved on in life since then as the series has done nothing truly exciting for so long.

Fast forward another two years for World of Final Fantasy. The people who care most about FF at this point are older audiences who want to play FFXV. Why bother with WoFF when FFXV is coming out just after that? The only audience left for that game are the tiny segment of old fans who still go after nostalgia bait and who might dislike the direction FFXV is going on.

This is why FF as a brand has suffered.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

They ran through the mainline nintendo catalog pretty quickly, they had those PSP "hd" sprite remakes for 1&2 and then did 3 and 4 on DS, later PSP. Maybe not releasing 5 and 6 on 3ds was the blunder, but 3 and 4 were never big sellers.
I'm not sure what the relationship with Sony was for FF7+ because they never touched those for Nintendo hardware. Sony hardware on the other hand would require bigger budgets. Vita was never hot enough and PS3 would be too much manpower to devote to remakes.

They had their fair share of spinoffs.

FFIII sold over 1m, mainly because it was the first time it got released on anything outside of the NES. But it was a big deal because it was the first hardcore 3rd party to pass 1m on the DS in Japan, back when the DS had that non-game stigma around it. FFIV didn't do as well because the GBA port was still around, and a lot of people noticed that.

I think not doing FFV and FFVI for 3DS was a bit of a mistake. There's enough time between the GBA ports for for them to not hurt the sales too much. I think FFVIr would have had a good chance of pass 1m.

 

[Arzehn]

I think it is hard to capture a younger audience with nostalgia/crossover bait when you fail to build the foundation for it. Dissidia Final Fantasy came out in 2008 and was very successful. Why? Because it was the perfect product at the perfect time. Released a decade after FFVIII, it captured everything from FF1 to FF12. So you have the peak of the FF franchise popularity in the late 90s, and all the kids who grew up in that period are now pumped to see a game with all these famous characters they have heard about even if they might not have played every game growing up. People who were in their teens at that period are now young adults who are excited that there's a badass action fighter with all the characters they loved.

Now fast forward another 6 years for FF Explorers. A decade before that release would be 2004. A period of the long wait between FFX and FFXII. Kids who grew up in this period already have less of an impression of the FF franchise. Young adults who were excited for Dissidia might have moved on in life since then as the series has done nothing truly exciting for so long.

Fast forward another two years for World of Final Fantasy. The people who care most about FF at this point are older audiences who want to play FFXV. Why bother with WoFF when FFXV is coming out just after that? The only audience left for that game are the tiny segment of old fans who still go after nostalgia bait and who might dislike the direction FFXV is going on.

This is why FF as a brand has suffered.

I mean this probably all comes back to troubled development, cell processor, hd graphics, western middleware having little japanese support at the time. SE basically having no equivalent peers in the HD era when it came to making full scale JRPGs.

Edit: I was curious as to what Lost Odyssey used and found this tidbit

Was the integration of Unreal Engine 3 smoother since we last spoke? How did that go?
RN: Integration of the Unreal 3 Engine was very difficult. Especially, it's not really because it's the Unreal 3 Engine, but I guess a lot of my guys are used to making Japanese RPGs, and they have their own philosophy in designing the games. And, you know, we didn't really follow the Unreal Engine philosophy to begin with, so it was more difficult.

And also, you know, we didn't have many English-speaking engineers, and that made it even more difficult, because at the time, Unreal Engine was evolving, so we needed to really be watching out what's happening with the Unreal Engine on the updates and the newsgroups and everything. But they are pretty much in English. You know, they had some Japanese support, but it was difficult in that sense.

Not really making any point here (they actually finished their game relatively quickly), just interesting bite from gamasutra

 

[duckroll]

I mean this probably all comes back to troubled development, cell processor, hd graphics, western middleware having little japanese support at the time. SE basically having no equivalent peers in the HD era when it came to making full scale JRPGs.

I guess the question then is - with FF3 DS being able to sell over a million, did S-E miss a chance during the transition where they could have changed the perception that FF had to have the latest in technical wizardry and push the boundaries of budget and scale?

 

[Arzehn]

I guess the question then is - with FF3 DS being able to sell over a million, did S-E miss a chance during the transition where they could have changed the perception that FF had to have the latest in technical wizardry and push the boundaries of budget and scale?

I've thought about this too, but this is why we need more (WW) sales data for FFXV. Had the series just gone to handhelds such as the DS and 3DS, PSP, Vita I have no doubts that it would have done better in Japan, but the trade-off of budget vs western sales would be difficult to judge.

Do they really need another DQ though? Maybe they did choose the right path and the idea is to have an expanded portfolio of brands that cater to different audiences.

 

[duckroll]

I've thought about this too, but this is why we need more (WW) sales data for FFXV. Had the series just gone to handhelds such as the DS and 3DS I have no doubts that it would have done better in Japan, but the trade-off of budget vs western sales would be difficult to judge.

Do they really need another DQ though? Maybe they did choose the right path and the idea is to have an expanded portfolio of brands that cater to different audiences.

I'm not suggesting that FFXV should have been a portable game or that the series shouldn't have high production values though. I'm talking about balance of resources and having a control on expectations and perception.

Let's say for example, after FFIV DS, they proceeded with FFV on DS. FFXIII comes out on PS3 in 2009 like it did. It performs like it did. But if FFV was successful, they suddenly have different options moving forward. It would mean there is an audience being built up from FF3 to FF5 from 2006 to 2009. They could then develop FFVI on 3DS, and if the subsequent games are indeed Playstation exclusives on console due to contract terms, they could begin exploring the possibilities of FFVII, FFVIII, and FFIX remakes on PSP/Vita (remember, this is still 2009) with considerations for PS3 versions on consoles as well. Such remakes would not be completely AAA reimaginations with cutting edge tech, but an adaptation of the original games into full 3D graphics with a modest level of improvement, and more importantly updates to the battle systems and events to offer a fresh experience to both new players and old fans. They could have made these instead of FFXIII-2 and LR. The FFX/X-2 remaster would also fit nicely into this release format since the graphics would be on par with such remakes.

In the process of repositioning the series like this, it opens up the possibilities of FFXV being something else. They should have scrapped Versus entirely. They wouldn't need to feel that they had to compete with open world RPGs from the west. FFXV would still be an expensive game on PS4, but it could be one with very different expectations both internally in S-E and from the fanbase at large, and it could be coming on the heels of a generation which grew up with FF3-10 being introduced to them via significant new releases on modern hardware, even if the hardware is split.

 

[Jpop]

Do they really need another DQ though? Maybe they did choose the right path and the idea is to have an expanded portfolio of brands that cater to different audiences.

Selling consistently with good sales vs consistently selling to a userbase with diminishing demographics isn't a good thing.

You can cater to new demographics without fucking the previous buyers. You can grow a franchise while experimenting.

You basically just gave an excuse for poor sales masking it as, "Well at least Final Fantasy tries new things"

 

[Arzehn]

I'm not suggesting that FFXV should have been a portable game or that the series shouldn't have high production values though. I'm talking about balance of resources and having a control on expectations and perception.

Let's say for example, after FFIV DS, they proceeded with FFV on DS. FFXIII comes out on PS3 in 2009 like it did. It performs like it did. But if FFV was successful, they suddenly have different options moving forward. It would mean there is an audience being built up from FF3 to FF5 from 2006 to 2009. They could then develop FFVI on 3DS, and if the subsequent games are indeed Playstation exclusives on console due to contract terms, they could begin exploring the possibilities of FFVII, FFVIII, and FFIX remakes on PSP/Vita (remember, this is still 2009) with considerations for PS3 versions on consoles as well. Such remakes would not be completely AAA reimaginations with cutting edge tech, but an adaptation of the original games into full 3D graphics with a modest level of improvement, and more importantly updates to the battle systems and events to offer a fresh experience to both new players and old fans. They could have made these instead of FFXIII-2 and LR. The FFX/X-2 remaster would also fit nicely into this release format since the graphics would be on par with such remakes.

In the process of repositioning the series like this, it opens up the possibilities of FFXV being something else. They should have scrapped Versus entirely. They wouldn't need to feel that they had to compete with open world RPGs from the west. FFXV would still be an expensive game on PS4, but it could be one with very different expectations both internally in S-E and from the fanbase at large, and it could be coming on the heels of a generation which grew up with FF3-10 being introduced to them via significant new releases on modern hardware, even if the hardware is split.

Ah, well this is how I feel about DQ11 on PS4, and to a degree KH3. Personally I'd be happy with this if it meant more games in a timely fashion.

I think XV is what it is because SE wants to be a global leader in technology. Maybe it's their... responsibility. If Final Fantasy won't do it, then nothing else will in Japan. Maybe that's their appeal too? Their source of controversy that keeps them as a relevant talking point globally.

"This is from the company that makes Final Fantasy"

 

[DarkLordMalik]

Good thing FF is still relevant as a franchise outside Japan, a slowly dying market

Now when it comes to Dragin Quest though, SE did the exact opposite of FF and fucked up the future of franchise big time in West with their delayed localization and lack of efforts to market it.

I doubt SE even cares about the future of FF in Japan at this point when it is still one of the most important franchise for them in the Western markets. Meanwhile we are still not sure whether they will localize DQXI. I mean if we come to this point, it is rrally ridiculous to think that we can't trust them for localization.

Their recent efforts for DQVII and Heroes were a failure sales wise, selling less than DS Remakes. But atleast they are still trying with Heroes 2 and VIII Remake, I doubt these will sell any significant numbers in the Western markets. The only modest success so far has been Builders.

SE has put almost the whole FF franchise on PC meanwhile they never bothered with the DQ series. I mean, what gives? It shows where their priority lie right now.

It is much easier to be a FF fan because atleast you can be sure of localization but Western DQ fans have been through several dark times.

 

[duckroll]

Good thing FF is still relevant as a franchise outside Japan, a slowly dying market

For how long though? Sure, a major AAA push like FFXV can still ship 5 million copies worldwide. But at this level of cost, how profitable is that and how practical is it for the company in the long run? How many FFXV-level titles can they consistently make with shorter development cycles? Meanwhile, how are the other FF titles selling worldwide? Will World of Final Fantasy sell even close to what Dragon Quest Heroes or Dragon Quest Builders sell worldwide? How did Final Fantasy Explorers do? How did Type-0 HD sell?

It doesn't seem to reflect well on FF as an international franchise when the sales outside of Japan can't seem to even pull it up to surpass what Dragon Quest does regularly within this "slowly dying market".

 

[DarkLordMalik]

For how long though? Sure, a major AAA push like FFXV can still ship 5 million copies worldwide. But at this level of cost, how profitable is that and how practical is it for the company in the long run? How many FFXV-level titles can they consistently make with shorter development cycles?

I mean it is not like Dragon Quest XI is cheaper to develop than FFXV. It looks like a very expensive project with multiple platform specific development. It looks like they are developing DQIX along with expansive DQVIII for 3DS and PS4 while also developing a mini-DQIV for the 3DS. It will also be 8 years since they release a proper mainline game.

SE fucked up with their own internal engines and this was one of the reason for delay of FFXV. We are getting FFVII: Remake soon and then likely followed by more projects, whether they are remakes, remasters or spin-offs. If they are releasing them, does it matter? If SE was losing money on them, they could have ditched them easily like they have done for some of their Western franchise.

Meanwhile, how are the other FF titles selling worldwide? Will World of Final Fantasy sell even close to what Dragon Quest Heroes or Dragon Quest Builders sell worldwide? How did Final Fantasy Explorers do? How did Type-0 HD sell?

It doesn't seem to reflect well on FF as an international franchise when the sales outside of Japan can't seem to even pull it up to surpass what Dragon Quest does regularly within this "slowly dying market".

Why not? DQB and DQH sales were mostly from Asian/Japanese market but outside from that, these games haven't really received notable sales to consider the other markets.

World of FF is a game that lacks Western appeal. Everywhere I see, people comment on the chibi art style calling it unappealing, it is not easy to market and sell such a game even based on nostalgia.

On the other hand, FFXII: HD should have no trouble reaching 1 million sales. FFX|X-2 HD Remaster sold more than 1 million easily. Similarly a Dissidia game should have no trouble in reaching million sales. FFXIV MMO is also doing really well worldwide and a major revenue driver for SE, you can just take a look at the support it gets to understand why they are still keeping it an important part of their strategy. They recently announced a brand new expansion which makes it 3-4 years since the MMO re-launched. They would have dropped it if it was a flop, but it isn't.

Aside from that, the FF franchise has done really well on Steam as well.

http://steamspy.com/search.php?s=final+fantasy

It is a pity we don't get similar stats tracking from consoles otherwise I don't see how the franchise should be doing such numbers on consoles.

 

[duckroll]

I mean it is not like Dragon Quest XI is cheaper to develop than FFXV.

Okay, lol. I guess I don't have to carry on this discussion.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

Okay, lol. I guess I don't have to carry on this discussion.

I don't see DQXI as a cheap project ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Maybe if it was just for 3DS, sure.

 

[Jpop]

Okay, lol. I guess I don't have to carry on this discussion.

Pretty much. Killed any argument he could come up with with that statement.

I don't see DQXI as a cheap project ¯_(&#12484_/¯

Maybe if it was just for 3DS, sure.

Did you just get a haircut?

 

[duckroll]

I don't see DQXI as a cheap project ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Maybe if it was just for 3DS, sure.

See the problem with your arguments is that they are always so reductive.

"I think DQXI costs as much as FFXV."

"Wut?!"

"Yeah DQXI can't be cheap to make."

No one says it is cheap to make. There's a huge gulf between "cheap to make" and "full blown internal production for 4+ years with hundreds of staff and a dozen outsource studios, a 2 hour CG film, a short anime series, a couple of mobile game tie-ins, and huge international promotional efforts".

 

[DarkLordMalik]

See the problem with your arguments is that they are always so reductive.

"I think DQXI costs as much as FFXV."

"Wut?!"

"Yeah DQXI can't be cheap to make."

No one says it is cheap to make. There's a huge gulf between "cheap to make" and "full blown internal production for 4+ years with hundreds of staff and a dozen outsource studios, a 2 hour CG film, a short anime series, a couple of mobile game tie-ins, and huge international promotional efforts".

Well yeh, that is a problem with the way I post, lol.

I wasn't saying DQXI is almost as expensive as FFXV, but looks like it was interpreted as such because of the way I write it.

My point was that I don't think it is cheap to make either, which I guess is what I wanted to say in the first place.

DQXI on PS4 looks like a project with a bigger budget than your typical open world JRPGs like Berseria or Star Ocean.

Did you just get a haircut?

??

 

[Oregano]

The issue with the "Japan is dead, so they're looking at the west" narrative is that it tends to end there and there's no kind of context as to what means. In the case of FFXV how is it actually comparing to past entries in the west?

The jury is still out as far as I'm aware but if hypothetically speaking if FFXV lost half a million sales in the west and a million in Japan I'm not sure that's a case of being able just to ignore it. Expansion to Asia will offset it a bit but that's a downward trajectory worldwide.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

The issue with the "Japan is dead, so they're looking at the west" narrative is that it tends to end there and there's no kind of context as to what means. In the case of FFXV how is it actually comparing to past entries in the west?

The jury is still out as far as I'm aware but if hypothetically speaking if FFXV lost half a million sales in the west and a million in Japan I'm not sure that's a case of being able just to ignore it. Expansion to Asia will offset it a bit but that's a downward trajectory worldwide.

It is in the top selling video game for the whole year on Amazon US and also did really welll digitally in NA on PSN. It has managed steady legs in UK, better than XIII AFAIK. It also sold more than 100k in Germany within its debut week.

I look at this and find it hard to imagine the game losing sales from other markets aside from Japan. So while there is a potential loss of 1 million here, I think with time, they can offset this lose from other sources of revenue. Season Pass is one of them which will also keep the game in spotlight throughout its release.

Lastly there is also the PC version that they can release later down the line to generate further revenue.

I have no doubt that FFXV can easily top 6-7 million if we consider all these factors. It is another story altogether if we talk a out budget since it came with 10 years of baggage.

 

[MilkBeard]

Maybe S-E saw the writing on the wall when DQIV and FFIV both released on DS at about the same time, and DQIV sold 1.28 million while FFIV crawled to 648k. I guess that, along with the troubled development on the FF titles from 2006 onwards, and DQIX selling a series record high, basically made management look at FF very differently. I think it was a bad call though. They should have invested in making FF interesting for a new audience again right after FFIV underperformed. Make a FFV remake better than ever, then follow that up with FFVI. Instead well, we're where we are now.

Yes, this is true. And instead, they chased mobile which doesn't overlap much with console sales.

 

[Celine]

I agree with you.

To add I think SE is losing part of that old fan base with FFXIII and FFXV.

So these last release couldn't manage to attract a new fan base and at the same time it repeled part of the old fan base.

All but assured, FFXV is going to have trouble to clear 1 million units in Japan which is (was) a very low threshold for a franchise like FF.

 

[zeromcd73]

Just went around all the big electronic stores in Japan in Osaka the past week for christmas.

Dragon Quest Monsters Joker 3 was about 800~1000yen everywhere brand bew. Super cheap. Can't see how 3 Professional will sell when they can get the base version for so cheap, even if it has less content.

Got a used copy of Yokai Watch 2 Shinuchi super cheap for 500yen. So good.